• Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

How Do You Prove God In Sikhism?

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
Harry Haller Ji,

I understand that you have faith and you truly believe existence of God to be an absolute fact.

The issue is that the reasoning you put forward can also be applied to existence of many other things like unicorns and Santa Claus if faith is the only criteria.

For example someone can say "If you look deep within yourself, you will find Santa Claus,. You will know it is Santa Claus as deep within you there is a pool of light and information, and it is never wrong, now for me this is absolute fact, not rhetoric"
I just took your comments and replaced the word God with Santa Claus.

The person putting forward the above reasoning would also have faith in the existence in Santa Claus but that wouldn't really give any credibility to his claims. Then why do we have a different set of rules to judge the claims that God's existence is a fact whereas Santa Claus is just make believe!
skeptic.freethinker1 thanks for your posts. It adds a lot if you talk first person about yourself rather than try to disprove something.

Can you please succinctly state if you for something, against something or looking for proof of God as though somebody claiming such find or ownership or path to the same. Sikhism encourages straight speak. Your kind of logic has been used historically to contrast, clarify and question but usually with an answer or observation. Lot of the use of the word "faith" in Harry Haller's posts I read as "I expect to see, I expect to discover, ....", it is not stated as a blind assumption of somebody told me so or I told myself so.

We (most that I have done dialog with) certainly in most cases are familiar with the simplistic logic you project like, " Buffalos are black, they give milk, so all black things must give milk". It is cute but not very value add.

Please provide your positive first hand discourse as most are doing so. May be not the exact English that you want them to be using.

Assuming you are "Humanism" centric per your inclinations, do you believe Sikhism includes Humanism as a sub-set of values or Humanism is super set of values that includes Sikhism as a subset? It perhaps will help everyone understand the dialog little better.

Regards for your contributions and appreciate some first person examples, experiences as if for/against (it really does not matter as that is part of discourse).

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Nov 14, 2004
408
388
62
Thailand
Skeptic freethinker ji,


Harry Haller Ji,

I understand that you have faith and you truly believe existence of God to be an absolute fact.

The issue is that the reasoning you put forward can also be applied to existence of many other things like unicorns and Santa Claus if faith is the only criteria.

For example someone can say "If you look deep within yourself, you will find Santa Claus,. You will know it is Santa Claus as deep within you there is a pool of light and information, and it is never wrong, now for me this is absolute fact, not rhetoric"
I just took your comments and replaced the word God with Santa Claus.

The person putting forward the above reasoning would also have faith in the existence in Santa Claus but that wouldn't really give any credibility to his claims. Then why do we have a different set of rules to judge the claims that God's existence is a fact whereas Santa Claus is just make believe!


I don't think that the same argument applies.
The faith being referred to is not merely directed towards the matter of existence / nonexistence. The idea of God is related to a host of experiences which act as support and seen as an indirect if not direct proof of its existence. Santa Clause on the other hand, comes from stories read or told. A child may believe in it, but there is nothing outside of the particular story upon which a person can relate and use as basis for a belief in the existence.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

Writer
SPNer
Jan 29, 2011
1,501
2,172
Vancouver, Canada
Science has grown big and old. We have had so many superstitions but they were debunked. We thought earth was center of universe, we have come to agree the world is not flat. But people still continue to see miracle in every walk of their life. They still believe in God and while we have what we call the atheists now, they still love to discuss how God is not there and is nothing to believe in. Man will continue to sense greatness in this Universe and 'worship' them, whether they confirm to what people think is God or not e.g. some people are big fans of flamethrowers! And talking about proof, I am amazed how lucky I am to be born Sikh, Sikhi not only completes me, it defines me how I think and I work! There is no science which can define me for the bunch of nerves that I am! Guru revealed and documented complete human (and scientific) behavior hundreds of years ago. Beat that :)
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
54
Harry Haller Ji,

I understand that you have faith and you truly believe existence of God to be an absolute fact.

The issue is that the reasoning you put forward can also be applied to existence of many other things like unicorns and Santa Claus if faith is the only criteria.

For example someone can say "If you look deep within yourself, you will find Santa Claus,. You will know it is Santa Claus as deep within you there is a pool of light and information, and it is never wrong, now for me this is absolute fact, not rhetoric"
I just took your comments and replaced the word God with Santa Claus.

The person putting forward the above reasoning would also have faith in the existence in Santa Claus but that wouldn't really give any credibility to his claims. Then why do we have a different set of rules to judge the claims that God's existence is a fact whereas Santa Claus is just make believe!

Skepticji,

My dear wife has asked me to post a thought, not to argue or debate with you, for this, she feels is not an argument or a debate with any winners and losers, more, as far as you are concerned, a practical life or death situation.

You are searching at the moment, and searching hard, and we all owe it to ourselves to try and assist you in this search as best we can. It IS a life or death situation, for on the one hand you have a living life, and on the other hand you have a living death. Her thought is simple, look up the word love in the dictionary, read the description, and see if these puny words can sum up the feelings you have for someone you love, for a father to look at his baby, or my mother doing path and crying tears of joy. I would imagine they cannot, and all the words and all the proof in the world is not going to encapsulate the feelings of one gursikh when they are spiritually connected to the almighty.

I have shared your fears and doubts myself, it was only a few weeks ago that my tag changed to sikhism, and even now, I refuse to believe in a white haired god sitting in the clouds, sikhism validates my belief that god is everywhere and in every living thing. In every dog, person, tree, flower, yet to me , it is not a thing I can touch or prove, it is even more simple than that, it is the truth in my heart. Wherever you find truth in its shiniest manifestation, there you will also find god.

But these are just words , just like santa is just a word, but if you were to have faith that santa stood for all the truth in the world, then you would find him in your heart too,

I am not perfect, the path is long and can be difficult. But again, something my wife said yesterday, is something I must take on board. I have a huge lust for life, for food, for intimacy and information. I think that just about covers the things I lust after, everything else bores me. We took the dogs out in the pouring rain, the dogs were having a great time, and I noticed how my wife seemed to share the joys and delight of the rain filled expedition,. I on the other hand did not, I was hungry, and all I could think about was food, bologna sauce, chorizo, and mince. You still exist, my wife mused, in a state of lust, be it thinking about it, doing it, or remembering it, you are like a plane being passed from one traffic control to the next, when will you enjoy what is happening to you now, look, talk to the dogs, they are desperate for your attention and your love, look at alfie rubbing himself against you, I looked at alfie, all i saw was chorizo, however, although I found it hard to forget the chorizo, the one thing I was very aware of, was that those words were truth. They were not owned by my wife, they belonged to god, they were gods words as indeed all eternal and constant truths were.

To search for the truth as you are is commendable, but you must learn to listen and not ignore, for that is a big folly, although possibly not such a big folly as knowing what the truth is and still being unable to latch it to your heart in the way I seem to keep doinganimatedkhanda1
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,001
1,095
In the Self
Harry Ji,

I love the way you describe your life with your wife and the dogs, I know it's not relevant but it was entertaining to read in the wolf thread and in the last post here ,I read somewhere that life is like a combination lock ,so you have to move forward and backward to unlock it. You feel you have fallen back ,but it was really another step towards your goal.
Santa probably refers to Saint Nicholas and there is no difference between a Saint and God.A freudian slip by the free thinker perhaps.

The merit of a leap of faith is that it is not based on proof ,and faith itself is a gift .
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Skeptic freethinker ji,


The faith being referred to is not merely directed towards the matter of existence / nonexistence. The idea of God is related to a host of experiences which act as support and seen as an indirect if not direct proof of its existence. Santa Clause on the other hand, comes from stories read or told. A child may believe in it, but there is nothing outside of the particular story upon which a person can relate and use as basis for a belief in the existence.

This is wonderfully expressed, and a good analysis of the need to make distinctions, in any kind of discussion of knowing and knowledge, between knowledge which is inferred and/or observed and knowledge which is "given."
 
Aug 28, 2010
1,514
1,116
72
In my way of understanding of messages of SGGS I find that there is no concept of GOD in Sikhism. Although the word GOD is a most respectable word for the CREATOR of the universe in other philosophies of the world.But in context of SGGS this word can not be used for any reference in Gurbaani.
What is refered in Gurbaani for the CREATOR we should try to understand this word .Gurbaani is definitely telling about the reference word for CREATOR.So why we cant think of using a proper word of Gurbaani for the Creator.?
We should be sincere to our Gurbaani first .This is my personal observation.
This way we can understand the more real and true messages of Gurbaani.
Prakash.s.bagga
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
In my way of understanding of messages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji I find that there is no concept of GOD in Sikhism. Although the word GOD is a most respectable word for the CREATOR of the universe in other philosophies of the world.But in context of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji this word can not be used for any reference in Gurbaani.
What is refered in Gurbaani for the CREATOR we should try to understand this word .Gurbaani is definitely telling about the reference word for CREATOR.So why we cant think of using a proper word of Gurbaani for the Creator.?
We should be sincere to our Gurbaani first .This is my personal observation.
This way we can understand the more real and true messages of Gurbaani.
Prakash.s.bagga

Parkash S. Bagga ji

I personally struggled with this for a long time. Then I made a distinction for myself. My own personal name for the Creator is Kartar Purakh. However, in order for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji translations to make sense in a different language, we are limited. Limited to the words available in that language. Some people will substitute a word or phrase, even a tuk, from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in the middle of a sentence, when they are trying to find a better word that "God." The results are not good when that reader does not understand the word, phrase, tuk. They are back to asking for an explanation. Back to GO. If a reader already knows what the word, phrase, tuk in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji means, they don't need an explanation. The only other option I see is to ban all translations completely and tell people sink or swim. You are on your own. You will have to do with any support on this project.
 
Aug 28, 2010
1,514
1,116
72
SPMADMIN Ji,
I fully agree with what you have stated. And I appreciate your stand in this regard.

The problem is related to the fact that till date our mind has accepted whatever we have been told by our prechers and scholars.We have never questioned the interpretations rather I should say we were never allowed to do so.Even today the the status is more or less the same.
It is the result of IT develom pment that we are able to interact or share our views on important subject like Gurbaabi understanding.
A time is yet to come when we would star listening and understanding the messages of Gurbaani thru our GuRU that is SGGS.This would be the real Gurmati understanding of Gurbaani messages. I consider the sense of meaning of the word Gurmati as by or thru the view of GuR of Gurbaani. When we start doing so this should make a difference of its own.
But we shall swim for sure if we listen and understand the messages thru GuR and Sink
if we ignore this.
Let us wait for the right times to come for this.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
prakash s. bagga ji,

You are so right when you point to IT as an irreversible force to get the quom thinking which is what we are supposed to do.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
prakash.s.bagga ji I find the following totally non gurbani centric (please take it as mutual discourse and not personal),

But we shall swim for sure if we listen and understand the messages thru GuR and Sink if we ignore this.
There is no question that our Gurus and Gurbani has made it easier for the people, who study it the right way, to understand creator and creation and the need to live in consonance with this understanding. As part of this understanding we also need to recognize the possible existence within unfathomable creator/creation to also have possibilities for the following,

..... others may with no knowledge of our Gurus or their Gurbani being able to achieve or have the ability to understand creator and creation and the need to live in consonance with this understanding.

Even the few words in the following guide us to be open minded to the extent of never making statements that I flagged in your post,
ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ArQ:- Akwl purK ie`k hY, ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY, (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[

God/creator is one and is known as the truth, is the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own (God/creator) blessing.
Creator by definition just creates. Each creation has a path and a relationship to everything else that creator has created. Each entity in creation as part of the path in its creation has a place of transformation. That transformation is slow (e.g. the melting glaciers, the dying stars, the travelling commets, etc.), fast (for example life forms surviving hundreds of years, humans living decades, micro-organisms transforming in seconds, etc.), superfast (e.g. energy-mass transformations, nuclear and wave energy transformations, virtualization where you can visualize virtually the sun faster than the light will take to travel to it in our though processes, etc.).

So the question ultimately is not about sinking or swimming but how enjoyable and worthwhile such an experience is for each winkingmunda, which we call a journey of life.

The shortness or length of the journey at times may be inconsequential for the actual people and not so for those who surround them or are impacted by them.

119315.jpg


119312.jpg


_51038174_51038172.jpg


The people in the picture are as much part of the creation and quite likely never heard of Sikhism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, etc., but I am sure are living to their best abilities in consonance with creation that they experience around :singhbhangra: :mundabhangra:

Just some thoughts and I welcome comments.

Regards,

Sat Sri Akal.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Ambarsaria ji

imho prakash s. bagga was taking his lead from tuks in which Guruji uses many metaphors: I have tied myself to your raft to cross the terrible world ocean. I don't think he was nullifying the idea that the Creator is within Creation and supports and nourishes it.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
Ambarsaria ji

imho prakash s. bagga was taking his lead from tuks in which Guruji uses many metaphors: I have tied myself to your raft to cross the terrible world ocean. I don't think he was nullifying the idea that the Creator is within Creation and supports and nourishes it.
spnadmin ji I feel no burden of your raft. Do carry your own oar just in case lolmundahug

Sat Sri Akal.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
spnadmin ji I feel no burden of your raft. Do carry your own oar just in case lolmundahug

Sat Sri Akal.

I was planning on jumping a ride on your raft just in case my oar malfunctioned. I do not know how much time is left on the warranty. Do you mind? I should have asked first.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,655
I felt Ambarsaria Ji was expressing a similar sentiment to Prakash Singh Bagga ji but in different words.

Yay! more words! icecreammunda We all love words don't we? Especially particular words. We have our own favourites. E.g. Ambarsaria ji will say "understand creation and creator" and I like the words "Tasting the Truth", which have become my favourite recently. Prakash Singh Bagga uses "swimming across the ocean".
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
Who can claim they are not slave to something that sits just above their eyes! I am guilty as charged by Bhagat Singh ji,

human_brain_cranial_nerves_undersid.jpg
human_brain_major_internal_parts.jpg


http://www.solarnavigator.net/human_brain.htm

Hypothalamus - The hypothalamus contains nuclei that control hormonal secretions from the pituitary gland. These centers govern sexual reproduction, eating, drinking, growth, and maternal behavior such as lactation (milk-production in mammals). The hypothalamus is also involved in almost all aspects of behavior, including your biological "clock," which is linked to the daily light-dark cycle (circadian rhythms).
Sat Sri Akal.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,655
Haha, not fair, now you are just teasing the Neurobiologist in me.

One who understands that he is a slave is known as a Bhagat (slave of God). More words for those who like them. ;)
 
Aug 28, 2010
1,514
1,116
72
I am not against any word but I do love all words usedin SGGS for the CREATOR.
I like the content of Bhagat Singh ji regarding context of being slave.
Let us give a thought to a point as under.

When we say GOD is ONE in reference of Gurbaani it is important to understand that the concept of GOD is ONE was very well known before revealation of Gurbaani thru NANAK and other Gurus.So what is unique in Sikh philosophy.?Sikhphilosophy is youngest in the world and has its own uniqueness .
By making use of the word GOD in Gurbaani do we promote Sikhphilosophy in right way this needs to be understood.

Prakash.s.Bagga
 

❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM

❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM

📌 For all latest updates, follow the Official Sikh Philosophy Network Whatsapp Channel:
Top