Hinduism Hindu Legends

[Astroboy]

The Hindus teach that there are 33 million gods and goddesses. There are some important ones, such as Indra - king of the gods, Vishnu - preserver, Brahma - creator, Shiva - destroyer. Moreover, some of these are sometimes associated with God, when they are regarded as avatars, or incarnations. Vishnu has many incarnations. Among these the most important are Rama and Krishna. However, two agnostics, the Jain founder, Mahavir and Lord Buddha are alleged incarnations, although this is obviously disputed by members of those religions. Some Hindus also regard Guru Gobind Singh as an incarnation. This seems difficult since the Guru wrote:
"Say if Krishan were the Ocean of Mercy, why should the hunter's arrow have struck him? If he can save other families, why did he destroy his own? Say why did he who called himself the eternal and the unconceived, enter into the womb of Devaki? Why did he who had no father or mother call Vasudev his father?" (33 Swayyas, no.14.) "Why call Shiv God and why speak of Brahma as God? God is not Ram Chander, Krishan, or Vishnu who you suppose to be lords of the world. Sukhdev, Parasar, and Vyas erred in abandoning the One God and worshipping many gods. All have set up false religions; I in every way believe that there is but One God. (33 Swayyas, no.15)
This fits with the teaching of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Saint Kabir writes: "Beings like Hanuman and Garuda, Indra and Brahma know not, O God Your attributes. The four Vedas, Simritis and Purans, Vishnu and Laksmi know them not. Says Kabir, whoever touches God's feet and seeks Divine shelter shall not wander in reincarnations." (Kabir, Raag Dhanasari). He also clarifies the use of Ram in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. "Kabir, call him Ram who is All-Present; we must make distinction between two 'Rams'. The One Ram is contained in All. Ram Chander is only contained in one thing, himself." (Kabir, Sloks). Ram as a name for God is used by the Sikhs, and as Sunnya (Void), Allah and others. But Ram as Ram Chander is only a created being. Sikhs worship only the One God, and do not associate God with any created being.

http://www.sikhwomen.com/sikhism/gurmat_and_hinduism.htm

 

[Astroboy]

REVELATION OR MYSTERY?

The Gurus state that they are not saying anything themselves. Rather God is speaking through them and they are simply the instrument through which God, the True Guru, the Breath of Life blows. The melody of their lives is the result of God's play. "O holy God, by Your Favour it is not I who have been speaking: You have said all that has been said." (Guru Gobind Singh) The same claim is also made for the religious books of the Semitic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. All claim that God has sent their books, as do the Sikhs.
However, the various books of the Hindus have been written by different saints, such as Mahabharata by saint Vyas, the Purans, the Laws of Manu by Manu as their own inspiration, not as the Word of God. The Gita is claimed to be the word of Krishna. However, Krishna claims to be God, not a servant of God. These are called Simriti. The other Hindu writings are Sruti which are claimed to come from the gods, though they were not written down for centuries later. These include the Vedas, which tells us about medicine, the invasion of India by the Aryans and their religion - their main gods, Indra the king, Agni, the fire, and their important ritual, the sacrifice of horses. There is mention of the One in the Upanishads written a thousand years later. Mountain recluses, the rishis who kept uncut hair, wrote these. But they are the writings of the saints intoxicated with God, not the Word sent down by God which is what the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Qu'ran and Bible claim to be.
The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in the common language of the people. It includes regional languages such as Bengali and Punjabi, the language of yogis Sanskriti, of Muslims Arabic and Persian, and also Brij Basha which was a lingua franca in northern South Asia in that time. All of these writings were set to music. Some like Raag Maru were favoured by the yogis, other raags by the Muslims, others by indigenous, tribal peoples and some were universal. In this way, God communicated to a whole range of people in their own languages and their own preferred music. The common people of many races, religions, and regions of South Asia and the Middle East could understand the message. The Hindu books were written in Sanskrit, the language of the gods, and only brahmins were allowed to study and interpret the scriptures. The Gurus got rid of the need for intermediaries.

DIRECT LINK OR INTERMEDIARY?

There is no intermediary between the human and God according to the Gurus, but the brahmins are the central feature of the Hindu religion. Without the brahmins there would not be any religion. The gods of the Hindus have changed - Vishnu and Brahma replaced Indra and Agni, and their rituals have changed - from horse sacrifices to vegetarianism under the influence of Buddhism. Their relevant holy books have changed, from the Vedas and Mann to the Mahabharata, Gita and Purans, and their attitudes to violence has changed, from hunters like Ram and Krishan whose dialogue, the Gita, is telling his friend Arjun to kill his relatives, to the non-violence of Gandhi. But the brahmin has been the constant of Hinduism, which is why Hinduism is sometimes termed as brahminism.
The fundamental belief of the Hindus is the role of the brahmin, for without the brahmin no ritual is complete. Not anyone can become a brahmin. One must be born a brahmin. But Kabir says, "In the womb there is neither family pride nor caste, all beings have been created from the Divine essence. Speak brahmin, when did brahmins originate?...How are you brahmins and we sudras? How were we made of mere blood and you of milk?" The status of the brahmin is fixed in the oldest Hindu scripture, the Rig-Veda. In the Purusa-Sukta, verse 12, we are told that the sacrifice of the first man led to "His mouth became the brahmin...and from his feet the sudras are born." In this shabad in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji Kabir is challenging the Hindu religious belief with the Sikh belief that all have come from One God and so all humanity is One. Guru Gobind Singh taught, “Recognise all humankind as One.”
The caste system is based on race. "Varnas" means colour. The top race is the brahmin, the second is the warrior - kashatri, then the skilled worker, unskilled worker, then the untouchables, dalits, who are the descendants of those conquered by the Aryans. Caste determined your profession, your position in society, whether you could worship - dalits were excluded from Hindu temples. The Gurus condemned caste as meaningless, and caste has played no part in Sikh history, religious or political.


http://www.sikhwomen.com/sikhism/gurmat_and_hinduism.htm

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Regarding the Gods of the Ramayana and Gita, it is greatly unfortunate and ill fated in the manner in which these Gods are defamed and destroyed.

Obviously Guruji thought these stories and spiritual lessons and insights were meaningful and beautiful enough to include in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. I do not understand why so many spend so much time belittling or defaming what Guruji Himself included as lessons of history and spiritual truths for His Gursikhs. If Bhai Gurdas Ji says the name of God is Vishnu, Har Krishan, Gobind, Ram, VaHeGuRu, then why do we who are truly ignorant of the powerful spiritual meaning defame what is not understood? Because that is defaming the very name of Parabrahm Nirankar which is Gurmantar. Gurbani says the das avataara are from the Parabrahm manifest/incarnated into this world. Gurbani says Guruji is an avataara. So how come everyone gets defensive and says Gurbani doesn't mean what it clearly says? Gurbani doesn't say Hindu religion is fake, untrue, mythological, fiction. Why would Guruji be willing to be tortured and die sacrificing His life to protect the right of Hindu people to practice a fake and untrue and meaningless religion which we can freely defame and show disrespect for? It makes no sense at all.

ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
chojee maerae govindhaa chojee maerae piaariaa har prabh maeraa chojee jeeo ||
Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful.

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਭੋਗਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਰਸੀਆ ਭੋਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae sabh ghatt bhogadhaa maerae govindhaa aapae raseeaa bhogee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself enjoys every heart, O my Lord of the Universe; He Himself is the Ravisher and the Enjoyer.

ਹਰਿ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਭੁਲਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
har sujaan n bhulee maerae govindhaa aapae sathigur jogee jeeo ||1||
The Lord is All-knowing - He cannot be fooled, O my Lord of the Universe. He is the True Guru, the Yogi. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 174​

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਗਯੋ ਛੀਰ ਨਿਧ ਜਹਾਂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਇਸਥਿਤ ਥੇ ਤਹਾਂ ॥
Brahmaa gayo chheer nidh jahaan|| Kaal purakh isthit the tahaan||
Amidst the milk-ocean, where the Immanent Lord was seated, Brahma reached there;

ਕਹਯੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਹ ਨਿਕਟ ਬੁਲਾਈ ॥ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਧਰੋ ਤੁਮ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
Kahyo Bishan kah nikat bulaaee|| Krishan avtaar dharo tum jaai||2||
The Lord called Vishnu near Him and said, “You go to the earth and assume the form of Krishna incarnation.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 643​

ਕਲਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
kal paravaan kathaeb kuraan ||
In Kali Yuga, the Koran and the Bible have become famous.

ਪੋਥੀ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਰਹੇ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥
pothhee panddith rehae puraan ||
The Pandit's scriptures and the Puraanas are not respected.
~SGGS Ji p. 903​

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[Archived_Member5]

God or Waheguru is an Omniscient, all knowing, Omnipresent, all pervading, Omnipotent all powerful Spiritual form. Blessed individuals with God consciousness or Gurmat are acclaimed as saints, messiahs and prophets. The Spirit of the supreme God in mortal form.

I feel God pays a dividend to the evil forces here on earth to assume mortal form, or he is rapidly found when his physical presence is felt here on earth. The evil force he seeks to quell and destroy then darken, mar and malign is divinity to the extent that it becomes unwise to worship such a flawed individual. Mohammed forcibly betrothed to a six year old was defamed in this manner, Guru Nanak was tormented and stalked by an evil force, Guru Gobind was lured into a second marriage greatly compromising his grand and impeccable stature following the murder of his beloved sons. Jesus loathed his mother who kept company with Magdalene and known albeit forgiven adulteress. It is the legacy of eve, kali and the ***** of Babylon. Man unwilling to accept this sin wages war and battles with evil, if he reconciles with the forces of Kalya he is cast into ignominy and defamation.

Feminism and demands for equality by uncouth lowly women to gain parity with our noble mothers and devoted matriarchs and pillars of society is the war waged. In cursed households battling between mother wife and sister/ daughter for dominance is played out in household with weak indecisive men contributing to the formation of loud unruly women.

We are in midst of Kalyug. Pain and suffering cannot touch the pious and honourable, man with a firm and resolute mind driven by love and peacability.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

"Say if Krishan were the Ocean of Mercy, why should the hunter's arrow have struck him? If he can save other families, why did he destroy his own? Say why did he who called himself the eternal and the unconceived, enter into the womb of Devaki? Why did he who had no father or mother call Vasudev his father?" (33 Swayyas, no.14.) "

The Gurus state that they are not saying anything themselves. Rather God is speaking through them and they are simply the instrument through which God, the True Guru, the Breath of Life blows.

Can't you see the answer in your two comments veer ji? If Guruji gave the world Shabad Naam, why would torture, calamity and death have struck Him in His 10 physical forms? And the answer is so simple, because Guruji's consciousness was merged in the Parabrahm, so the physical form is mere vehicle. What does Gurbani say about this question? It doesn't say mankind is mere inanimate instrument through which Divine blows, it says the Divine is pervading Presence in all His created forms.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.

ਦਇਆਲ ਦਮੋਦਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਭਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
dhaeiaal dhamodhar guramukh paaeeai horath kithai n bhaathee jeeo ||2||
The Gurmukh finds the Merciful Lord. He is not found any other way. ||2||

ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥
nirehaaree kaesav niravairaa ||
He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.

ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥
kott janaa jaa kae poojehi pairaa ||
Millions of people worship His Feet.
~SGGS Ji p. 98​

Didn't you once tell me that Kirasan here is not referring to Krishan of Vrindaban, but to Parabrahm Nirankaar? Yet, Parabrahm is called after Krishan. Even Guruji was called after Har Krishan. Why is this? Isn't it because Har Krishan is one of the names of the Supreme Parabrahm Nirankaar? How can this be? Unless our understanding is lacking. We do not worship Krishna as the Supreme Parabrahm, yet Gurbani clearly states the Supreme was with Krishan. In previous yugs Har Krishan was a form of the Parabrahm, says Gurbani, the Parabrahm created Kirasan. Just as we do not worship physical forms of Guru, yet Gurbani is clear that the Supreme Lord is merged with Guru. In the Kalyug, Guruji is the manifestation of God's Jyot through the Shabad Naam. Nowhere does Gurbani describe Guruji as being some kind of Abrahamic prophet which Parabrahm (separate from His creation) is speaking through, and where Guruji retains His distinct human identity. We don't even deal with Guruji in terms of His distinct human identity, but as merged with the Akal Purakh. Guruji didn't bring us a testament (testimony of His adventures hearing God's message), He brought us literal Shabad-Jyot of the Parabrahm Nirankaar Akal. Guru's Jyot is merged with the Shabad-Jyot and Guru inparted His Shabad-Jyot into Shri Guru Granth so now Guru Granth has the Living Shabad-Jyot of the Supreme Vaheguru. Or what is the purpose of a book possessed with the spirit of a dead man? You cannot separate Guru from God in this way, or you deny the very basis of mukti. Only Abrahamic theologies which do not believe God can ever be merged with the consciousness of a man keep forever separate these concepts. And for them it is God-All Powerful and sinful, puny creation for all time. They have no concept of union with the Divine or the Divine pervading His creation.

ਤਾਰੀਲੇ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਰੂਪ ਕੁਬਿਜਾ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਅਜਾਮਲੁ ਤਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
thaareelae ganikaa bin roop kubijaa biaadhh ajaamal thaareealae ||
You saved the prostitute, and the ugly hunch-back; You helped the hunter and Ajaamal swim across as well.

ਚਰਨ ਬਧਿਕ ਜਨ ਤੇਊ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ॥
charan badhhik jan thaeoo mukath bheae ||
The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated.

ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਿਨ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੇ ॥੧॥
ho bal bal jin raam kehae ||1||
I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to those who chant the Lord's Name. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 345​

ਦਰੋਗੁ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਖੁਸੀ ਹੋਇ ਬੇਖਬਰ ਬਾਦੁ ਬਕਾਹਿ ॥
dharog parr parr khusee hoe baekhabar baadh bakaahi ||
Reading and studying falsehood, people are happy; in their ignorance, they speak nonsense.

ਹਕੁ ਸਚੁ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਿਆਨੇ ਸਿਆਮ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੨॥
hak sach khaalak khalak miaanae siaam moorath naahi ||2||
The True Creator Lord is diffused into His creation; He is not just the dark-skinned Krishna of legends. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 727​

ਕਲਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਅਉ ॥
kal maahi roop karathaa purakh so jaanai jin kishh keeao ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Guru is the Form of the Creator, the Primal Lord God; he alone knows, who has tried it.
~SGGS Ji p. 1395​

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥
gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 1389​

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Feminism and demands for equality by uncouth lowly women to gain parity with our noble mothers and devoted matriarchs and pillars of society is the war waged. In cursed households battling between mother wife and sister/ daughter for dominance is played out in household with weak indecisive men contributing to the formation of loud unruly women.

There is clearly a truth here about balance of energies and role of mother being violated by corrupted concepts of female which are indecent. Yet as Guruji clearly shows the atma is female in relation to God. So there is a balance in the relation a man shows to God, as there is a balance in the relation between a man and a woman. On the other hand, you are correct that there is a nobility of matriarchs and proper wives and respected sisters which lifts a man up to God while the corrupted do work wiles to lure man away from God. In times of trouble, it will be your beloved mothers, wives and sisters who will fight with you in the war against demonic powers. Just as you recognize the evil of corrupted women, do not overlook the evil of corrupted men. As any police officer or physician can tell you young mothers and children are far too frequently horribly mistreated, maimed and even killed because of the corrupted relationships and imbalance and disharmony of Kaliyug. To simply blame women is too simplistic and overlooks the WHOLE relationship which is imbalanced. And this imbalance reflects the condition of the world in relationship to God.

 

[Archived_Member5]

I am a woman. A mother, wife, daughter, sister and daughter in law. Women are the root of all evil. For each action of an angry man there is the presence of an evil and morally corrupt woman lurking in the background.

Social degeneration is more prolific is societies where man is weakened by the tirades of rampant feminists ravenous for power in the inability to gain respect simply by mere personage or good deeds and words. Each nation where a woman has gained power has committed under the leadership and rule of that women horrific crimes against humanity.

Mankind remains outcast in hell for the infidelity of eve, whilst the mother of God’s creation remained captive in his enemy’s hands. The rise and reign of Camilla in this dark age, a known adulteress unfaithful to her husband and tormentor of the innocent Diana to her untimely death is symptomatic of this Kalyug. Parvati’s Shiva was subjugated and oppressed in a most unseemly fashion by a feminist evil witchcraft using despot who is worshipped by some Hindu’s despite her apparent anti male and evil deeds.

America may be the land of plenty but man is rendered impotent at the onslaughts and hands of vitriolic demands of feminists. Feminism increases homosexuality, which rises in direct correlation to the rise of feminism, as a subliminal counteractive stance against women. Social degeneration and moral decay is the resultant outcome of this.

The great divorce of Adam and his first wife Lilith to accommodate the wiles of evil was the catalyst for the eternal love triangle and the undoing of mankind. How can the bride meet the bridegroom and the world become as one, if man remains oppressed by eveil and sin. Blessed is the devoted and loving wife and mother who retain peace and harmony in her prospering household.

 

[spnadmin]

I am a woman. A mother, wife, daughter, sister and daughter in law. Women are the root of all evil. For each action of an angry man there is the presence of an evil and morally corrupt woman lurking in the background.

Social degeneration is more prolific is societies where man is weakened by the tirades of rampant feminists ravenous for power in the inability to gain respect simply by mere personage or good deeds and words. Each nation where a woman has gained power has committed under the leadership and rule of that women horrific crimes against humanity.

Mankind remains outcast in hell for the infidelity of eve, whilst the mother of God’s creation remained captive in his enemy’s hands. The rise and reign of Camilla in this dark age, a known adulteress unfaithful to her husband and tormentor of the innocent Diana to her untimely death is symptomatic of this Kalyug. Parvati’s Shiva was subjugated and oppressed in a most unseemly fashion by a feminist evil witchcraft using despot who is worshipped by some Hindu’s despite her apparent anti male and evil deeds.

America may be the land of plenty but man is rendered impotent at the onslaughts and hands of vitriolic demands of feminists. Feminism increases homosexuality, which rises in direct correlation to the rise of feminism, as a subliminal counteractive stance against women. Social degeneration and moral decay is the resultant outcome of this.

The great divorce of Adam and his first wife Lilith to accommodate the wiles of evil was the catalyst for the eternal love triangle and the undoing of mankind. How can the bride meet the bridegroom and the world become as one, if man remains oppressed by eveil and sin. Blessed is the devoted and loving wife and mother who retain peace and harmony in her prospering household.

The root of all evil? Social degeneration? Accommodation to the wiles of evil? Moral decay? All the consequence of women who are lurking in the background and who gain supremacy. So you seem to tell us.

These ideas have bound women to slavery, humiliation and suffering, at the hands of religion and society, for centuries. And in my very first encounters with Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Guru Nanak, it became clear that Guru Nanak was a feminist. He liberated all humanity from the notion that women are an evil, negative, and morally counterproductive force. It is fundamental in Sikhism and simple in its profoundity to think of woman in the way of the Shabad below, from Guru Nanak on Ang 473.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
ma 1 ||
First Mehl:

7 ਭੰਡਿ ਜੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਨਿੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਮੰਗਣੁ ਵੀਆਹੁ ॥
bhandd janmeeai bhandd ninmeeai bhandd mangan veeaahu ||
From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.


ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਭੰਡਹੁ ਚਲੈ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
bhanddahu hovai dhosathee bhanddahu chalai raahu ||
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.


ਭੰਡੁ ਮੁਆ ਭੰਡੁ ਭਾਲੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਬੰਧਾਨੁ ॥
bhandd muaa bhandd bhaaleeai bhandd hovai bandhhaan ||
When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.


ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮੰਦਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਰਾਜਾਨ ॥
so kio mandhaa aakheeai jith janmehi raajaan ||
So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.


ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੀ ਭੰਡੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਭੰਡੈ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
bhanddahu hee bhandd oopajai bhanddai baajh n koe ||
From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.


ਨਾਨਕ ਭੰਡੈ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਏਕੋ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
naanak bhanddai baaharaa eaeko sachaa soe ||
O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman.


ਜਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਭਾਗਾ ਰਤੀ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
jith mukh sadhaa saalaaheeai bhaagaa rathee chaar ||
That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful.


ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਊਜਲੇ ਤਿਤੁ ਸਚੈ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
naanak thae mukh oojalae thith sachai dharabaar ||2||
O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. ||2||

So basic is this message, that we forget sometimes that many people who convert to Sikhism do so in part because of the unequivocal, clear and emphatic message embodied in the words of Guru's Shabad above.

Where does the anger come from that rises up and corrodes the intelligence and moral spirit of men who denounce the equality of their mothers, wives, daughters, sisters, and women all around? Guru Nanak helps us understand a higher moral stance.

ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਭੰਡਹੁ ਚਲੈ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
bhanddahu hovai dhosathee bhanddahu chalai raahu ||
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

He willed us to live in His creation -- also without hatred and without enmity -- treating everyone as equal. He too lives in His creation and enjoys it. So should we make our judgment greater than His and find reasons to belittle, scorn, humble, humiliate, subjugate or suppress another? No, because we, men and women, are not better than Him.

As a Sikh I am bound to say this. It is our dharma to see everyone as equal. This is because He dwells in everyone. Moral degeneracy is rampant, as bhenji Harjas ji has said. And all I can add to her comments is that we can only root out the degeneracy within ourselves. This is very hard, our dharmic quest. So much easier to project our limitations on to others. And if we do not contend with ourselves in this way each day then we have divorced ourselves from Him and are living without God-consciousness.

My humble apologies.

 

[Astroboy]

Can't you see the answer in your two comments veer ji? If Guruji gave the world Shabad Naam, why would torture, calamity and death have struck Him in His 10 physical forms? And the answer is so simple, because Guruji's consciousness was merged in the Parabrahm, so the physical form is mere vehicle. What does Gurbani say about this question? It doesn't say mankind is mere inanimate instrument through which Divine blows, it says the Divine is pervading Presence in all His created forms.

The question discussed here is clearly on one issue - that Guru Ji didn't say that he was God but Krishna did. Guru Ji isn't an incarnation of God but Krishna claims to be. Some people say Sikhism is a distortion of Hinduism and someone was quick to point out that Sikhism is the same as early Hinduism but presently Hinduism has changed to ritualism and Brahminism.

But the article which you're referring to isn't speaking of either point. It clearly show that Sikhism exposes the fallacy of the Hindu God's claims.

 

[Astroboy]

What is Gurbani's view of Hindu Devi & Devtas (deities)?

According to Gurbani Shiva, Vishnu, or Brahma were kings of their respective times. However they are not given any importance or significance at all. Gurmat does not accept them as God nor as incarnations of God. Like any other human beings, they had virtues and they had weaknesses. Gurbani says:
ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗਹ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੀਏ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥
ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੭॥
"In each and every age, God creates the kings, who are sung of as His Incarnations. Even they have not found God's limits; what can I speak of and contemplate? ||7||"
(Ang 423)
It is clear that these kings were normal people but people sung of them and made them out to be Avtars (incarnations of God) and hence they are refered to as "Devtas" or "gods". Similarly the Pharaohs were glorified and projected as living gods and as God who kept creation alive and were the creators of the world. In eastern tradition, for example in Burma or China, anytime the public saw the king or emperor people would lay down and postrate and revered the ruler as God or incarnation of God. For example these figures are sometimes depicted with ten heads or ten arms. This is not to say that they looked like aliens because they were humans. Rather the ten heads is an artists way of depicting that the figure had the power of ten people etc. However, Gurbani is totally clear that no one can put a limit on God and God is unborn. No human can claim to be God. Just as no drop of water can claim to be the ocean.
Gurbani is not a Scripture of Stories, tales or Mythologies. Instead Gurbani uses stories, characters and mythology as a "reference" to explain the Divine Truth about God.
Gurbani is clear that there are countless Brahmas and Maheshs and Vishnus and all are under the power of One Vaheguru.
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥
"O Formless Lord God, You are eternally intact; no one can say how You came into being. You created countless Brahmas and Vishnus; their minds were intoxicated with emotional attachment."
(Ang 1403)
The Vedic tradition believed that three deities were responsible for creation, sustenance and destruction of the universe - Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh. However, Gurbani uses their reference and explicitly says that all the functions of the deities are in fact all present within Vaheguru – which means that one should give up worship of deities and worship the True One (Vaheguru). The fifth Pauree (stanza) of Japji Sahib says:
ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥
ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਜਿਵ ਹੋਵੈ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ ॥
"(It is believed that) the One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities (Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh who were given duties for creation, sustenance, and destruction). (However) the One (God) is the Creator of the World; the One (God) is the Sustainer; and the One (God) is the Destroyer. God alone makes things happen according to the Pleasure of His Will. Such is His Celestial Order."
(Ang 7)
In the shabad "arbad narbad...." (Ang 1035) about creation, it is clear that there was no trinity and the origin is only God. God created these beings.
Furthermore, Gurbani is clear that all these beings are thirsting for the opportunity to get the human form because it is only in the human form that we can get Gurmat Naam and realise Vaheguru:
ਜਿਸੁ ਨਾਮੈ ਕਉ ਤਰਸਹਿ ਬਹੁ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
ਸਗਲ ਭਗਤ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਰਦੇ ਸੇਵਾ ॥
ਅਨਾਥਾ ਨਾਥੁ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਤੇ ਪਾਇਣਾ ॥੩॥
"So many gods yearn for Naam, the Name of the Lord. All the Bhagats (devotees of God) serve Him. He is the Master of the masterless, the Destroyer of the pains of the poor. His Name is obtained from the Perfect Guru. ||3||"
(Ang 1078)
And also:
ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਿਧ ਮੁਨਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਦਾਨੁ ਜਸੁ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੧॥
Brahma, Shiva, the Siddhas, the silent sages and Indra beg for the charity of God's Praise and devotion to Him. ||1||
(Ang 1322)
For example Pauree 25, Ang 5 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:
ਆਖਹਿ ਵੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥
ਆਖਹਿ ਪੜੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ॥
ਆਖਹਿ ਬਰਮੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਇੰਦ ॥
ਆਖਹਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਤੈ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ॥
"The Vedas and the Puraanas speak/estimate God. The scholars also who lecture (to others) also speak of God. Many Brahmas speak, many Indras speak. Gopis (milk maids who used to adore Krishan) and many Krishans speak of God."
(Ang 5-6)
It does not refer to a singular figure. There are many Brahmas; there are many Krishnas etc. There are many people throughout history who have been intellectuals, who have thought they are the creators etc.
The last line of the verse/ pauree is the key to understanding what Guru Sahib intends to tell us:
ਜੇਵਡੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਵਡੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥
ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥
"O Nanak! God is as Great as He wishes to be. The Eternal True Lord knows Himself (how Great He is). If anyone presumes to describe God (and how Great He is), then that person shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26||"
(Ang 5)
Guru Sahib tells us that in the world there have been countless intellectuals and scholars and there will continue to be. But, till now no one has been able to work out how Great God is and how many blessings is He bestowing upon living beings. Infinite are His virtues and infinite are are His gifts. Without God, no one can know this. This work is not in the capability of humans. That human is the greatest fool who claims to have bundled together all of God's virtues and gifts.
"Rama and Krishnahad received the homage of everyone as Divine beings. It was Nanak who boldly questioned their divinity and brought them down to the level of mortals…………… Guru Gobind Singh went further and stated: 'He created millions of worms like Krishna, made many Ramas and destroyed them. Many Mohammads came into the world . All died when their time expired."
[Gokal Chand Narang: Transformation of Sikhism, p.384]
Although English translations are useful and provide great knowledge to Sikh Studies. However, through literal word for word Panjabi or Gurmukhi translation to English causes the implied meanings of a Shabad (hymn) to be lost and for a reader with little or no knowledge of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, historical knowledge, grammatical knowledge, knowledge of smilies and metaphors, knowledge of culture and tradition referred to etc, the true meanings can be lost.

Category:

• Gurmat & Hinduism

© 2007 Waheguroo! Network

 

[Archived_Member5]

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[spnadmin]

NamJap ji

This are some very interesting observations in the article that you have reported on this topic -- with copyright waheguru network. What is your overall assessment of gurmat vichaar on waheguru network --- itss web site. Before I add it too my bookmarks, I would ask whether you think the understanding is well backed up with core understanding of the SGGS in its entirety. I am not too familiar with their resources.

 

[Astroboy]

Are Sikhs Hindus because they have originated from Hindus?

If Sikhs are Hindus because they are converts from Hindus that would mean Christians are Jews. Muslims who have originated from Quereshi, Christians, Jews and Pagans are not accepted to be the latter.
Are Christians and Muslims who are converts from Hindus to be regarded as Hindus as well?

Aad Ji,

My reply to your question - take everything with a pinch of salt because we are dealing with the opinions of human mind. Only Gurbani should be trusted in entirety. We all go thru waves of distractions off and on - as a result - certain phrases click just right at times but when reviewed at a later stage do not give out the same aroma.

 

[spnadmin]

Nam Jap ji,

Thanks for your response. I take it as a balanced opinion. And the lines that you quoted from the Gurmat link in your prrior comments -- These are excellent examples of the rhetorical questions that are completely illogical yet get asked all the time. It was good to see that the Internet site had thought the issue through and came up with concise examples of how we can become misaligned with logic and truth.

 

[Astroboy]

Obviously Guruji thought these stories and spiritual lessons and insights were meaningful and beautiful enough to include in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. I do not understand why so many spend so much time belittling or defaming what Guruji Himself included as lessons of history and spiritual truths for His Gursikhs. If Bhai Gurdas Ji says the name of God is Vishnu, Har Krishan, Gobind, Ram, VaHeGuRu, then why do we who are truly ignorant of the powerful spiritual meaning defame what is not understood? Because that is defaming the very name of Parabrahm Nirankar which is Gurmantar. Gurbani says the das avataara are from the Parabrahm manifest/incarnated into this world. Gurbani says Guruji is an avataara. So how come everyone gets defensive and says Gurbani doesn't mean what it clearly says? Gurbani doesn't say Hindu religion is fake, untrue, mythological, fiction. Why would Guruji be willing to be tortured and die sacrificing His life to protect the right of Hindu people to practice a fake and untrue and meaningless religion which we can freely defame and show disrespect for? It makes no sense at all.


Bhul chak maaf

Harjas Ji,

Here's an opinion worth looking into :-

Was Sikhism created to defend Hinduism?
Sikhism was not created to defend any religious group, Sikhism is a path to realisation of God. Pressure from government sources during the times of the last six Gurus led to the development of a Sikh army for self-defense. A Sikh is taught to stand against injustice from whatever source and to defend the weak and downtrodden, no matter what their religious affiliation. In the armies of Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji there were many from a whole spectrum of religious beliefs, from Muslims to Hindus.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

I am a woman. A mother, wife, daughter, sister and daughter in law. Women are the root of all evil. For each action of an angry man there is the presence of an evil and morally corrupt woman lurking in the background.

Social degeneration is more prolific is societies where man is weakened by the tirades of rampant feminists ravenous for power in the inability to gain respect simply by mere personage or good deeds and words. Each nation where a woman has gained power has committed under the leadership and rule of that women horrific crimes against humanity.

[/FONT]
It takes immense courage for a women to make such a blunt and candid statement. It is like Maya itself revealing her true identity. You have said well and hit the nail on the head. Kabir ji too voices the same in his Salokas. Our Gurus did not go blunt on this issue but have tackled this subject in a more subtle way.

There is a lot of mileage in your statement. It is an experience of being in a elevated state of mind. [/FONT]There is generally a very minuscule understanding of what Guru ji has tried to tell us. We seem to be lost in our own illusions. The concept of Sikhism is not for the faint hearted.

AAd ji Sikhism is not a playground to please the ego of the individual. Guru ji says "Ja tao prem khelan ka chao, Sir dhar tali gali mori aao". If ones purpose of joining Sikhism is for praise then it is a wrong choice.Sikhism is a spiritual journey that is designed to join one with its origin.

[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[Archived_Member5]

Immense courage...! This fear of tackling rampant and hypocritical feminist not entirely dissimilar to the eunuch bullies prevalent in some parts of the Punjab is precisely why I responded so vehement ally to the so called oppression of women. Inequal according of disproportionate rights to certain privileged groups is unfair. Men suffer, they bear the burdens of maintain their households financially and generally die earlier than their wives. My strong views are largely distorted by the witnessing of cunning and manipulative women oppressing, dispiriting and ridiculing men into submission. I have placed my cards on the table although I firmly stand my ground. It is not an issue of my ego, but a real problem.

Women are the pillars of their households or the root of all discord and mayhem. I do not consider this a contentious issue in any way. A meritocracy is a society wherein all are governed by a moral code and doctrine and virtue is its own reward. I despise openly persons demanding special rights. There is no place in a fair society, unfortunately it is ill governed populations that become breeding grounds for extremism.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

This is actually a very interesting thread, and I thank all the participants. I actually see a couple of points I would like to address differently, so I will use 2 separate posts to do so (and avoid one of the marathon long winding ones.)

I am a woman. A mother, wife, daughter, sister and daughter in law. Women are the root of all evil. For each action of an angry man there is the presence of an evil and morally corrupt woman lurking in the background.

Social degeneration is more prolific is societies where man is weakened by the tirades of rampant feminists ravenous for power in the inability to gain respect simply by mere personage or good deeds and words. Each nation where a woman has gained power has committed under the leadership and rule of that women horrific crimes against humanity.

Mankind remains outcast in hell for the infidelity of eve, whilst the mother of God’s creation remained captive in his enemy’s hands. The rise and reign of Camilla in this dark age, a known adulteress unfaithful to her husband and tormentor of the innocent Diana to her untimely death is symptomatic of this Kalyug. Parvati’s Shiva was subjugated and oppressed in a most unseemly fashion by a feminist evil witchcraft using despot who is worshipped by some Hindu’s despite her apparent anti male and evil deeds.

America may be the land of plenty but man is rendered impotent at the onslaughts and hands of vitriolic demands of feminists. Feminism increases homosexuality, which rises in direct correlation to the rise of feminism, as a subliminal counteractive stance against women. Social degeneration and moral decay is the resultant outcome of this.

The great divorce of Adam and his first wife Lilith to accommodate the wiles of evil was the catalyst for the eternal love triangle and the undoing of mankind. How can the bride meet the bridegroom and the world become as one, if man remains oppressed by eveil and sin. Blessed is the devoted and loving wife and mother who retain peace and harmony in her prospering household.

I am a woman too. But truth be told, the atma of men and women has no such physical identity. The experiences of men and women is that they have been men and women. Even woman gives birth to males and females. I am not a feminist by any means and am aware feminism as a social philosophy has brought immeasurable harm to women and children by alienating the proper roles of male and female. However, I cannot agree with the Abrahamic distortions I see in this quote. That is why the problem is truly one of imbalance, and not of designated blame of the weaker which is a characteristic of bullying societies.

In Auschwitz reports are told of the gas chambers where children are trampled in the center, women are trampled just outside them, and men are found dead having trampled both women and children to save themselves. This is the true ignobility of the human character. And it is a matter of survival hardwiring and not any bad parenting by a eunach bully mother or wife which causes this. The fact that men are physically stronger puts man in a certain moral dilemma. It is easier for him to physically victimize the weaker. Since ALL human beings are corrupted because of panj dhoots, does a bully use physical force and intimidation, or psychological manipulation? Men often resort to physical abuse, women to psychological abuse. Why? Because something is corrupted in the nature of human beings. And this is why there is corruption and imbalance in the entire human race, and not one demonic catalyst of blame, like the Abrahamic aspersions against women. Any realistic evaluation of the condition of women in Abrahamic societies will clearly show a predominance of male aggression. I reiterate, it's a hardwiring, perhaps instinctual trait.

Another example, I have a friend who has worked the prison system for decades. The simplest fact, women tend to kill their children. Men tend to kill their wives and girlfriends and other men's children. Hardwiring. The human race in it's most primitive form, is a bully. Is this all the fault of women, as some "root of all discord and mayhem?" Because women are physically weaker, they are the pariah of all societies from time immemorial. Female children are the most reviled, murdered and despised creatures who have ever lived. Yet they are helpless. A spiritual teaching shows in the fruit of how it's religious believer's treat the weakest, most vulnerable members of a population. Does the teaching help humanity overcome hatred and bullying? Or does it justify and enforce it?

Taliban abusive to women in the presence of children

Men suffer, they bear the burdens of maintain their households financially and generally die earlier than their wives.

Men die a few years younger than women in modern societies because the diet of Western cultures in which these studies are conducted is saturated with processed fats. Women have a certain hormonal protection against heart disease until menopause, after which the cases of female heart disease begin to steadily catch up to the statistics of the men. But I will give you some real statistics.

Violence Against Women Pervasive Problem Worldwide, Says New UN Report

• Around the world, at least one in every three women has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused during her lifetime.
  
• While women are less likely than men to be victims of violent crimes overall, women are five to eight times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate partner.
  
• Male violence against women does much more damage than female violence against men; women are much more likely to be injured than men.
  
• Women are much more likely than men to be killed by an intimate partner. In 2000, intimate partner homicides accounted for 33.5 percent of the murders of women and less than four percent of the murders of men.
  
• Pregnant and recently pregnant women are more likely to be victims of homicide than to die of any other cause, and evidence exists that a significant proportion of all female homicide victims are killed by their intimate partners.
  
• Research suggests that injury related deaths, including homicide and suicide, account for approximately one-third of all maternal mortality cases, while medical reasons make up the rest. But, homicide is the leading cause of death overall for pregnant women, followed by cancer, acute and chronic respiratory conditions, motor vehicle collisions and drug overdose, peripartum and postpartum cardiomyopthy, and suicide.
  
• The health-related costs of rape, physical assault, stalking and homicide committed by intimate partners exceed $5.8 billion each year.
  
• Forty percent of girls age 14 to 17 report knowing someone their age who has been hit or beaten by a boyfriend.
  
• In a national survey of more than 6,000 American families, 50 percent of the men who frequently assaulted their wives also frequently abused their children.
  
• Studies suggest that between 3.3 - 10 million children witness some form of domestic violence annually.
  
• One in five (21 percent) women reported she had been raped or physically or sexually assaulted in her lifetime.
  
  Prevalence of Domestic Violence

Those are the facts. One out of every three women will be physically or sexually abused in her lifetime. Fully 30% of all female murder victims was killed by her male spouse. 22% of raped females was under the age of 12. Murder is the leading cause of death of pregnant women.

With facts like this which are a daily reality, who can talk about Lilith?

I despise openly persons demanding special rights.

You know, this is a generalization. I believe special interest groups like feminists and homosexuals actually do harm society because they pull against the established order and norm of proper sexual roles. I do think in many ways this harms the social fabric and threatens and alienates the average man. But on the other hand, females and gay men tend to be abused, denied basic rights of job security, housing, etc, and lead the statistics of murder victims. So some kind of justice system is in order. Let the courts decide on a case by case basis rather than deteriorate the discussion into some form of hate mongering against the weaker and more marginalized populations as is typical of bullying societies which rarely look in the mirror at their own faults. True spirituality doesn't despise anybody. Rather it seeks balance, and justice and harmony and healing. Spirituality is a blessing to the suffering world, not another racist, violent, antagonistic, sexist, divisionary, elitist pox of "us" against "them." Gurbani says the Akal Purakh is pervading His creation. Why do we persist in despising what is weakest or most vulnerable within our own humanity? And this is not to justify indecent or demonic behavior whether it stems from men or women. But to acknowledge that materiality itself is an illusion where our basest instincts are plainly shown and our most holy qualities are also plainly shown. The holy qualities bless. The basest instincts curse. The karam of the world manifests the fruit of humanities blessing and cursing. But let no spiritual teaching mascarade as a curse upon anyone without being demonstrated to be a doctrine of demons to divide, alienate and promote hatred and injustice. The world has seen enough religious bloodshed, hypocrisy and murder to create a million hells. We need no more demonic distortions of spiritual teachings which fail to liberate, or dare equate Gurbani as on the same level as Abrahamic hostility to women and people of other religions.

Auto de fe (Literal meaning: Act of Faith) setting torture victims on fire for the crime of apostacizing from the accepted doctrines of faith, Spanish Inquisition.

As for the third cause, by which inordinate love proceeds from devils' and witches' works, the possibility of this sort of witchcraft has been exhaustively considered in the Questions of the First Part as to whether devils through the agency of witches can turn the minds of men to inordinate love or hatred, and it was proved by examples which had fallen within our own experience. Indeed this is the best known and most general form of witchcraft.

But the following question may be asked: Peter has been seized with an inordinate love of this description, but he does not know whether it is due to the first or the second or the third cause. It must be answered that it can be by the work of the devil that hatred is stirred up between married people so as to cause the crime of adultery.

But when a man is so bound in the meshes of carnal lust and desire that he can be made to desist from it by no shame, words, blows or action; and when a man often puts away his beautiful wife to cleave to the most hideous of women, and when he cannot rest in the night, but is so demented that he must go by devious ways to his mistress; and when it is found that those of noblest birth, Governors, and other rich men, are the most miserably involved in this sin (for this age is dominated by women, and was foretold by S. Hildegard, as Vincent of Beauvais records in the Mirror of History, although he said it would note endure for as long as it already has); and when the world is now full of adultery, especially among the most highly born;
~Malleus Maleficarum (Hammer of the Witches)
PART II., QUESTION II.
CHAPTER III

Men suffer...

When I was a teenager, I used to laugh at a feminist bumper sticker which was common at the time. It said, "Women hold up half the sky." I always used to say, "Well who's holding up the other half?" Men suffer... as if to imply women don't? How absurd. Humanity suffers. Male and female are two faces of the one humanity.

Social degeneration is more prolific is societies where man is weakened by the tirades of rampant feminists ravenous for power in the inability to gain respect simply by mere personage or good deeds and words. Each nation where a woman has gained power has committed under the leadership and rule of that women horrific crimes against humanity.

Mankind remains outcast in hell for the infidelity of eve, whilst the mother of God’s creation remained captive in his enemy’s hands. The rise and reign of Camilla in this dark age, a known adulteress unfaithful to her husband and tormentor of the innocent Diana to her untimely death is symptomatic of this Kalyug. Parvati’s Shiva was subjugated and oppressed in a most unseemly fashion by a feminist evil witchcraft using despot who is worshipped by some Hindu’s despite her apparent anti male and evil deeds.

America may be the land of plenty but man is rendered impotent at the onslaughts and hands of vitriolic demands of feminists. Feminism increases homosexuality, which rises in direct correlation to the rise of feminism, as a subliminal counteractive stance against women. Social degeneration and moral decay is the resultant outcome of this.

The great divorce of Adam and his first wife Lilith to accommodate the wiles of evil was the catalyst for the eternal love triangle and the undoing of mankind. How can the bride meet the bridegroom and the world become as one, if man remains oppressed by eveil and sin. Blessed is the devoted and loving wife and mother who retain peace and harmony in her prospering household.

"Each nation where a woman has gained power has committed under the leadership and rule of that women horrific crimes against humanity."

The truth is, women in leadership roles have FAILED to prevent the same atrocities and violence and bullying which has existed in human societies from time immemorial, because contrary to feminist doctrine, women are the same exact atma as men. Sex is no arbiter of virtue or lack of virtue. Communist China has not had a female head of state yet, but the country remains completely willing to engage in atrocities, torture, mass murder of undesirable populations. You cannot over-simplify and merely cast blame if you intend to be realistic and truthful.

Mankind remains outcast in hell for the infidelity of eve

Are you for real? Are you aware that the creation story of the Abrahamic Bible is only one version of that creation story? There are others which have been suppressed historically? And the version which made it into modern scriptures is the most unrealistic, antagonistic to women, blaming them for harlotry and demonism. Let's take a look at this history of scriptural editing and what it implies.

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
~Genesis Chapter 3. Bible or Kateb​

And what behavior does this kind of blame and devaluation of women encourage? Imagine a "scripture" which talks about gang-rape of a man's concubine and another man's virgin daughter being cowardly thrown to a mob to preserve their "male" honor. After offering the defenseless women to the mob to save himself, he cuts his concubine's corpse into 12 pieces as a form of requesting justice to the 12 Judges of Israel for the loss and defilement of his property (the woman). And this is a scriptural teaching recording a societal attitude about women. The reality, all men are women and all women are men because there is no such thing as male and female, they are roles we play, bodies are robes we wear, the soul has no sex, no race, no nationality. We ALL derive from the Parabrahm. And injustice is injustice is injustice however you slice it, dice it, blame it or shame it.

20 "You are welcome at my house," the old man said. "Let me supply whatever you need. Only don't spend the night in the square." 21 So he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their feet, they had something to eat and drink.

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel.
~Judges chapter 19 Bible/Kateb​

The great divorce of Adam and his first wife Lilith to accommodate the wiles of evil was the catalyst for the eternal love triangle and the undoing of mankind. How can the bride meet the bridegroom and the world become as one, if man remains oppressed by eveil and sin.

And this "evil and sin" which plagues mankind is said to come from.... woman right? And not from his own personal shortcomings and physical nature trapped in bondage to Maya and the three gunas. Here is the Lilith story in all it's splendor.

(c) God then formed Lilith, the first woman, just as He had formed Adam, except that He used filth and sediment instead of pure dust. From Adam's union with this demoness, and with another like her named Naamah, Tubal Cain's sister, sprang Asmodeus and innumerable demons that still plague mankind. Many generations later, Lilith and Naamah came to Solomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem'. [4]

(d) Adam and Lilith never found peace together; for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent posture he demanded. 'Why must I lie beneath you?' she asked. 'I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal.' Because Adam tried to compel her obedience by force, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magic name of God, rose into the air and left him.

Adam complained to God: 'I have been deserted by my helpmeet' God at once sent the angels Senoy, Sansenoy and Semangelof to fetch Lilith back. They found her beside the Red Sea, a region abounding in lascivious demons, to whom she bore lilim at the rate of more than one hundred a day. 'Return to Adam without delay,' the angels said, `or we will drown you!'

Lilith asked: `How can I return to Adam and live like an honest housewife, after my stay beside the Red Sea?? 'It will be death to refuse!' they answered. `How can I die,' Lilith asked again, `when God has ordered me to take charge of all newborn children: boys up to the eighth day of life, that of circumcision; girls up to the twentieth day. None the less, if ever I see your three names or likenesses displayed in an amulet above a newborn child, I promise to spare it.'

To this they agreed; but God punished Lilith by making one hundred of her demon children perish daily; [5] and if she could not destroy a human infant, because of the angelic amulet, she would spitefully turn against her own. [6]

(e) Some say that Lilith ruled as queen in Zmargad, and again in Sheba; and was the demoness who destroyed job's sons. [7] Yet she escaped the curse of death which overtook Adam, since they had parted long before the Fall. Lilith and Naamah not only strangle infants but also seduce dreaming men, any one of whom, sleeping alone, may become their victim. [8]

(f) Undismayed by His failure to give Adam a suitable helpmeet, God tried again, and let him watch while he built up a woman's anatomy: using bones, tissues, muscles, blood and glandular secretions, then covering the whole with skin and adding tufts of hair in places. The sight caused Adam such disgust that even when this woman, the First Eve, stood there in her full beauty, he felt an invincible repugnance. God knew that He had failed once more, and took the First Eve away. Where she went, nobody knows for certain. [9]

(g) God tried a third time, and acted more circumspectly. Having taken a rib from Adam's side in his sleep, He formed it into a woman; then plaited her hair and adorned her, like a bride, with twenty-four pieces of jewellery, before waking him. Adam was entranced. [10]

(h) Some say that God created Eve not from Adam's rib, but from a tail ending in a sting which had been part of his body. God cut this off, and the stump-now a useless coccyx-is still carried by Adam's descendants. [11]

The Lilith Myth

What is missing: The Gnostic version (for comparison)

When Sophia let fall a droplet of light, it flowed onto the water, and immediately a human being appeared, being androgynous. That droplet she molded first as a female body. Afterwards, using the body she molded it in the likeness of the mother, which had appeared. And he finished it in twelve months. An androgynous human being was produced, whom the Greeks call Hermaphrodites; and whose mother the Hebrews call Eve of Life (Zoe), namely, the female instructor of life. Her offspring is the creature that is lord. Afterwards, the authorities called it "Beast", so that it might lead astray their modelled creatures. The interpretation of "the beast" is "the instructor". For it was found to be the wisest of all beings.

Now, Eve is the first virgin, the one who without a husband bore her first offspring. It is she who served as her own midwife...

And at that time, the prime parent then rendered an opinion concerning man to those who were with him. Then each of them cast his sperm into the midst of the navel of the earth. Since that day, the seven rulers have fashioned man with his body resembling their body, but his likeness resembling the man that had appeared to them. His modelling took place by parts, one at a time. And their leader fashioned the brain and the nervous system. Afterwards, he appeared as prior to him. He became a soul-endowed man. And he was called Adam, that is, "father", according to the name of the one that existed before him.

And when they had finished Adam, he abandoned him as an inanimate vessel, since he had taken form like an abortion, in that no spirit was in him. Regarding this thing, when the chief ruler remembered the saying of Pistis, he was afraid lest the true man enter his modelled form and become its lord. For this reason he left his modelled form forty days without soul, and he withdrew and abandoned it. Now on the fortieth day, Sophia Zoe sent her breath into Adam, who had no soul. He began to move upon the ground. And he could not stand up.

Then, when the seven rulers came, they saw him and were greatly disturbed. They went up to him and seized him. And he (viz., the chief ruler) said to the breath within him, "Who are you? And whence did you come hither?" It answered and said, "I have come from the force of the man for the destruction of your work." When they heard, they glorified him, since he gave them respite from the fear and the anxiety in which they found themselves. Then they called that day "Rest", in as much as they had rested from toil. And when they saw that Adam could stand up, they were glad, and they took him and put him in Paradise. And they withdrew up to their heavens.

After the day of rest, Sophia sent her daughter Zoe, being called Eve, as an instructor, in order that she might make Adam, who had no soul, arise, so that those whom he should engender might become containers of light. When Eve saw her male counterpart prostrate, she had pity upon him, and she said, "Adam! Become alive! Arise upon the earth!" Immediately her word became accomplished fact. For Adam, having arisen, suddenly opened his eyes. When he saw her, he said, "You shall be called 'Mother of the Living'. For it is you who have given me life."
~On the Origin of the World
Nag Hammadi Library

In one creation story, woman is created from man and for man. When have you ever seen in nature a man as the birth giver? Shaytan the devil tempts the woman and seduces her to sin, thus corrupting man and cursing humanity.

In another version, Zoe, which means Life, which is the name of woman gives birth to man. Sophia which is Divine feminine wisdom acts through Life to give God's Light to mankind. The Divine forces of creation are referred to as androgenous, containing both masculine and feminine qualities which are imparted to creation, and this is carried over in the orthodox teaching of the Bible in this verse:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
~Genesis 1:26-27

Here is a mysterious verse because the One God calls Himself "we" (plural), and says they created male and female after "our" (plural) image. It only makes sense when you start researching the versions of the creation story which were left out. ("Elohiym" here is used to designate plural implying a One Supreme out of a plurality of gods.) This verse appearing in the Torah, originally in Hebrew has been designated by Christians thousands of years later writing in Greek to originate their later developed doctrine of the Holy Trinty, God in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the (neuter) Holy Ghost. Earlier teachings rendered the Holy Ghost feminine. And earlier teachings were rooted in Egyptian paganism where the Trinitarian Trimurti doctrine derives: Isis (God the Mother), Horus (God the Father), Osiris/Mithras (God the Son). All feminine aspects were purged out as Christian religion emphasized centuries of male dominated monastic asceticism which postulated the wiles of feminine evil and formulated a completely male, neutered God. The only worthy feminine was the counterpart of Eve, the Virgin Mary who was elevated to hyperdulia, a form of adoration above the saints but below the worship of God.

There are three levels of reverence that we in this life offer. Latria is reserved for God alone. Hyperdulia is reserved for the Blessed Virgin. Dulia is reserved for all the rest of the heavenly host.
Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church

In summation, the negativity, the blame, the demonological elements attributed to women, the curse on humanity are given a completely different rendering in other versions. Imbalance of the physical and spiritual forces would seem to me to be the problematic issue and not blame against some physically weaker person who can then be justifiably reviled, beaten, blamed and murdered with impunity for supposed unhappiness of society. It just seems to be the least mature of the spiritual teachings. Enough of this now, it pertains to injustices and slanders and has resulted in unimaginable cruelties, pograms, massacres and genocide. Even some entire medievel villages were left without a single female when the Inquisition went hunting for diabolical "witches." What a pitiable misguided nightmare of a religious teaching.

 

[pk70]

namjapji
My reply to your question - take everything with a pinch of salt because we are dealing with the opinions of human mind. Only Gurbani should be trusted in entirety. We all go thru waves of distractions off and on - as a result - certain phrases click just right at times but when reviewed at a later stage do not give out the same aroma.
I cannot agree more than that.

 

[pk70]

Quote "n summation, the negativity, the blame, the demonological elements attributed to women, the curse on humanity are given a completely different rendering in other versions. Imbalance of the physical and spiritual forces would seem to me to be the problematic issue and not blame against some physically weaker person who can then be justifiably reviled, beaten, blamed and murdered with impunity for supposed unhappiness of society. It just seems to be the least mature of the spiritual teachings. Enough of this now, it pertains to injustices and slanders and has resulted in unimaginable cruelties, pograms, massacres and genocide. Even some entire medievel villages were left without a single female when the Inquisition went hunting for diabolical "witches." What a pitiable misguided nightmare of a religious teaching.
Practical and Historical in context of mythology, analysis is done successfully, assuming and guessing on such vast phenomena often eclipse the dominating effects on human psyche that has been enduring them to date. Gurbani chooses side with the weaker, male or female. I applaud you Harjas bhain ji on this. There is a Shabad in which Guru Nanak states that on certain state of mind, the difference of male or female disappears, blaming leads to no where either way if any one wish to align to HIS Ordinance. It is clear as per Human History, weaker suffered at the [/FONT]hands of Powerful, still this fact is on front seat regardless of curtains though used as cover up.