Hinduism Hindu Legends

[spnadmin]

There seems to be a problem replying to this thread. Mod's note for future readers.

You made get this error.

Warning: Division by zero in [path]/modules/ibparcade.php on line 400

 

[Sikh80]

As an experiment I am just trying to post this line. Let us see.

 

[Sikh80]

since the above is posted there appears to be no problem:Second proof,let us see again.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80 ji,

The problem seems to have cleared up on this thread. But it persisted on Sikh Names thread. Aman ji is looking into it.

Sat Nam

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur Khalsa
Also Gurbani doesn't invalidate the Vedas but says Gurbani is the sum total of the Vedas.
~Bhul chak maaf

It is here that you stated that Bani is a function of Vedas or vice versa. Gurbani is based on independent experience of Brahmgyanis',the 10 Gurus.

Panth rejects this outlook as well and I quote from the part of rehat that you have posted.

Gurbani is the sum total of the Vedas is a reference to the tuk,

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.​

I did not state the Bani is a function of the Vedas. I said all the wisdom of the Vedas (sum total) is in the Gurbani. A radically different meaning from what you allege. Gurbani is not entirely independant or would not contain bhagat and bhatt bani. It is independant in that Guru has achieved understanding which no other religion has ever had. But all the wisdom of the past belongs to Guru. Guru had Mastery of knowledge of Hinduism, Islam and Christianity else how could he have corrected it?

Sikhs are also advised to not to believe in Vedas and besides other Gita. Yes, they may read.It should and must have some meaning and reasons. Had Bani being the sum total of Vedas we should have been told so by someone either by Guru Sahibs or the Panth.

Both of your statements that appeared to be objectionable are still objectionable.[i.e about bani being the sum total of vedas or Krishna's statement that HE was God.]

I quoted several times where it says Guru's Word is the wisdom of the Vedas. Where it says in compassion the God created Krishna for the lost people. Where it says Krishna was an avatar for the Dwapara yuga. Where it says millions are incarnations of the God. I have read Bhagavad-Gita, and I understand that Krishna is speaking from God-consciousness. When Gurbani says that even you will merge into the God what do you think this means?

That God will ever be One and you will always be separate?

Or do you believe the Gurbani which states we will find our true nature which is the One? It's not like a competition between gods who is greater or lesser, that's duality. We know Krishna is created being. But we also know the God manifested through him. So why is this objectionable when it is what Gurbani teaches? Krishna is not a deva we worship or make altars to, which is what the Rehat Maryada is talking about. We don't need Krishna, we have Guru. But, we shouldn't say disrespectful things about Lord Krishna or hurt sentiments of Hindu people. Since Gurbani doesn't say Krishna is fake, why should we?

Can you ,with cent percent confidence, state that anyone who states in Gita as I am the God can be the same person who came thru. the route of womb.?

Gurbani rejects this claim and bani also states to the effect that:

"Burnt be the tongue that states that HE is born."

ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.

ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||

ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥
aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them.

ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥
kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||
The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥
aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||
The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3||

ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥
sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 606​

This part you don't understand. We are speaking about multiple levels of reality. It is true that a person, for example, could never be a god. Why? Because we're finite, created creatures. How can the created be the uncreated?

But on another level of reality, every person is a manifestation of the indivisible One.

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥
jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor ||
We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart.

ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥
aapae mael milaavehee saachai mehal hadhoor ||2||
He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||
~SGGS Ji p. 20​

The God is pervading in everyone. So God is already present. If someone (not even have to be a famous avatar) speaks from authentic God-consciousness, then the small I is not speaking, but the Lord is speaking because the consciousness is merged. Don't you realize this is how Guru (the same Jyot in all forms) was able to bring the shabad to us? Otherwise Gurbani would only be words spoken by some created beings and so prone to error. But because Guru was God-realized and merged in the Divine consciousness the Gurbani is speaking transcendental and timeless Truth. How else could it be one Jyot in 10 bodies and in 11th Shabad Guru Ji? Unless this was God-consciousness. Or are you saying the God does not speak through Guru?

ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਚ ਸਿਉ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
preeth lagee this sach sio marai n aavai jaae ||
I have fallen in love with the True Lord. He does not die, He does not come and go.

ਨਾ ਵੇਛੋੜਿਆ ਵਿਛੁੜੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
naa vaeshhorriaa vishhurrai sabh mehi rehiaa samaae ||
In separation, He is not separated from us; He is pervading and permeating amongst all.
~SGGS Ji p. 46​

Krishna may be devas but not God as he states himself to be so in Gita.[ It is for this reason that I cannot consume if someone says that I am god and meditate upon me as stated in Gita and to this statement you vehemently objected to. I still maintain my stand and hope entire sikh community shall have a similar outlook. ]

Bani recognizes krishna who was sent by the God ,as you said, as an Avtaar and not anyone who states that HE is GOD.

it is very humbly requested that:
1.Kindly posts half a page/page post or so ,it is likely to be read in full and avoid quoting bani on mass scale.
2.Pl. Quote the essence that you want to say.

Pk70 complains I only post single tuk and not entire shabad, And you complain I post too much Gurbani. Hard to please everyone. Don't be too harsh. It's hard to read too much Gurbani. You will miss me when I'm gone.

Since when did entire Sikh community ever have the same outlook on anything? That is truly wishful thinking.

As I'm trying to explain, and I realize it is a difficult concept, but I will try my best...we are discussing different levels of reality. Yes, Krishna is an authentic Deva. Yes, he is recognized as an avtaara for previous age. And yes, he is separate from the One Supreme Uncreated Parabrahm, Ek Oangkar.

No dispute.

The problem arises when the multidimensional reality exists that the One actually manifest through the form of Krishna.

And it was from this perspective that even Vaishnav Hindu's believe Krishna was an avatar of the Parabrahm. As an avatar he was able to speak from God-consciousness because this was the purpose of him coming into the incarnation. If he didn't speak from God-realization (which was not complete as Guruji has the complete God-realization and is only being who merged with the nirgun and sargun aspects of the Oneness), then Krishna would not be an avatar but a human prophet.

Gurbani doesn't say he was a human prophet. It says he was an avatar, an incarnation of the God. Does this mean he is equal to the Ek Oangkar? No. But it means the Ek Oangkar was manifest in him. And in the condition of being merged, in that superconscious samadhi state of realization, yes, he was God as you or I can be God if we ever achieve that merging. Look what Gurbani says:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
breham giaanee aap nirankaar ||
The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬਨੀ ॥
breham giaanee kee sobhaa breham giaanee banee ||
The glory of the God-conscious being belongs to the God-conscious being alone.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਧਨੀ ॥੮॥੮॥
naanak breham giaanee sarab kaa dhhanee ||8||8||
O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8||
~SGGS Ji p. 274​

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥
baisano so jis oopar suprasann ||
The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥
bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn ||
He dwells apart from Maya.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥
karam karath hovai nihakaram ||
Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.

ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥
this baisano kaa niramal dhharam ||
Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;

ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥
kaahoo fal kee eishhaa nehee baashhai ||
he has no desire for the fruits of his labors.

ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥
kaeval bhagath keerathan sang raachai ||
He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the songs of the Lord's Glory.

ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥
man than anthar simaran gopaal ||
Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe.

ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥
sabh oopar hovath kirapaal ||
He is kind to all creatures.

ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥
aap dhrirrai avareh naam japaavai ||
He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
naanak ouhu baisano param gath paavai ||2||
O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 274​

ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥
simrith saasathr baedh puraan ||
The Simritees, Shaastras, Vedas and Puraanas

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ॥
paarabreham kaa karehi vakhiaan ||
expound upon the Supreme Lord God.

ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤੀ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ॥
jogee jathee baisano raamadhaas ||
The Yogis, celibates, Vaishnavs and followers of Ram Das

ਮਿਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਅਬਿਨਾਸ ॥੨॥
mith naahee breham abinaas ||2||
cannot find the limits of the Eternal Lord God. ||2||

ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਹ ਕਰਹਿ ਸਿਵ ਦੇਵ ॥
karan palaah karehi siv dhaev ||
Shiva and the gods lament and moan,

ਤਿਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵ ॥
thil nehee boojhehi alakh abhaev ||
but they do not understand even a tiny bit of the unseen and unknown Lord.

ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ॥
praem bhagath jis aapae dhaee ||
One whom the Lord Himself blesses with loving devotional worship,

ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ ॥੩॥
jag mehi viralae kaeee kaee ||3||
is very rare in this world. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 199
​

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਸਰੇਸਟ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes saraesatt naam rathae veechaaree ||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are exalted, imbued with contemplative meditation on the Naam.

ਖਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਗਗਨ ਪਤਾਲੀ ਜੰਤਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥
khaanee baanee gagan pathaalee janthaa joth thumaaree ||
The sources of creation, speech, the heavens and the underworld, all beings and creatures, are infused with Your Light.

ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਧੁਨਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਰ ਧਾਰੀ ॥
sabh sukh mukath naam dhhun baanee sach naam our dhhaaree ||
All comforts and liberation are found in the Naam, and the vibrations of the Guru's Bani; I have enshrined the True Name within my heart.

ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਛੂਟਸਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚੀ ਤਰੁ ਤੂ ਤਾਰੀ ॥੯॥੭॥
naam binaa nehee shhoottas naanak saachee thar thoo thaaree ||9||7||
Without the Naam, no one is saved; O Nanak, with the Truth, cross over to the other side. ||9||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1013​

ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸਣੁ ਖੜੇ ॥
thudhh dhhiaaeinih baedh kathaebaa san kharrae ||
The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You.

ਗਣਤੀ ਗਣੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਤੇਰੈ ਦਰਿ ਪੜੇ ॥
ganathee ganee n jaae thaerai dhar parrae ||
Uncounted are those who fall at Your Door.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਾ ॥
brehamae thudhh dhhiaaeinih eindhr eindhraasanaa ||
Brahma meditates on You, as does Indra on his throne.

ਸੰਕਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣਾ ॥
sankar bisan avathaar har jas mukh bhanaa ||
Shiva and Vishnu, and their incarnations, chant the Lord's Praise with their mouths,

ਪੀਰ ਪਿਕਾਬਰ ਸੇਖ ਮਸਾਇਕ ਅਉਲੀਏ ॥
peer pikaabar saekh masaaeik aouleeeae ||
as do the Pirs, the spiritual teachers, the prophets and the Shaykhs, the silent sages and the seers.

ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਮਉਲੀਏ ॥
outh poth nirankaar ghatt ghatt mouleeeae ||
Through and through, the Formless Lord is woven into each and every heart.
~SGGS Ji p. 518
​

So, what is an avatar?

What does this mean theologically and how does it relate to Sikhism? And you will see even in Hinduism it is believed the primary 3 Devas are below the Parabrahm, but that all ultimately come from this unknowable Oneness. And they manifest the Oneness into the sansaaric world.

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥
gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 1389​

In Hindu philosophy, an avatar (also spelled as avatara) (Sanskrit: अवतार, IAST avatāra), has primary meaning of 'descent', however the word is most commonly translated into English as incarnation, of a divine being (deva), or the Supreme Being (God) onto planet Earth. This is misleading because it suggests too strong a resemblance to the incarnation of Christian theology. The Sanskrit word avatāra- literally means "descent" (avatarati) and usually implies a deliberate descent into lower realms of existence for special purposes. The term is used primarily in Hinduism, for incarnations of Vishnu whom Vaishnava Hindus worship as the supreme God and its is a distinctive feature of Vaishnavism...

According to the Puranas countless numbers of avatars descend and advent into our Universe. Although its is usual to speak of Vishnu as the source of the avataras, this is only one of the names of god of Vaishnavism...

The secondary avatars are generally not worshiped as the Supreme being. Only the direct, primary avatars are worshiped in this way. In practice, the direct avatars that are worshiped today are the Purna avatars of Narasimha, Rama and Krishna. Among most Vaishnava traditions, Krishna is considered to be the highest kind of Purna avatar. However, followers of Chaitanya (including ISKCON), Nimbarka, Vallabhacharya differ philosophically from other Vaishnavites, such as Ramanujacharya and Madhva, and consider Krishna to be the ultimate Godhead, not simply an avatar. In any event, all Hindus believe that there is no difference between worship of Vishnu and His avatars as it all leads to Him.
Avatar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

Now to fully understand Hindu philosophy, as this is a point of contention where it has a parallel in Gurbani, and to make the concept more clear let me show passage which explains the Parabrahm and how it relates to the Ek Oangkar.

ਅਗਨਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਸੁੰਨੇ ਕਲਾ ਰਹਾਇਦਾ ॥੨॥
agan paanee jeeo joth thumaaree sunnae kalaa rehaaeidhaa ||2||
Your Light pervades fire, water and souls; Your Power rests in the Primal Void. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
sunnahu brehamaa bisan mehaes oupaaeae ||
From this Primal Void, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth.

ਸੁੰਨੇ ਵਰਤੇ ਜੁਗ ਸਬਾਏ ॥
sunnae varathae jug sabaaeae ||
This Primal Void is pervasive throughout all the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 1037​

In Hinduism the Vedic pantheon comprises clans of anthropomorphic deities as well as deified natural phenomena. Two classes of Vedic gods, Devas and Asuras. However, already in the Vedic period, the notion of One God was known to Indian thought. The very first book of the Rig Veda,1:164:46 states,
ekam sad viprā bahudhā vadantya
"Truth is One, but sages call it by many names."

Monotheistic theology is an inherent part of Hinduism which teaches that the many forms of God, i.e., Vishnu, Shiva, or Devi merely represent aspects of a single or underlying divine power or Brahman (see articles on Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman).

As one scholar has said, "...Hinduism includes both monism and monotheism. It is misleading to call the Abrahamic religions,"the monotheistic traditions," implying that monotheism is absent from the Eastern traditions. Vedanta includes many monotheistic schools; They may accept the existence of many gods and goddesses, but strongly emphasise the pre-eminence of the Supreme Deity.


Monotheism can be divided into different types on the basis of its attitude towards polytheism: inclusive monotheism claims that all polytheistic deities are just different names for the single monotheistic God; Smartism, a denomination of Hinduism, follows this belief and holds that God is one but has different aspects and can be called by different names (this belief dominate the view of Hinduism in the West); exclusive monotheism, on the other hand, claims that these other deities are either aspects of their supreme god, demigods (cognate with angels), invented, or simply incorrect, as Vaishnavism, a denomination of Hinduism, regards the worship of anyone other than Vishnu. However, according to the Bhagavad Gita (one of the most important Vaishnava scriptures) whatever form of God one worships it is in fact worship of Vishnu. Exclusive monotheism is a well-known tenet in the beliefs of the Abrahamic religions.

In Hinduism, views of the spiritual world are broad and range from monism, dualism, pantheism to panentheism, alternatively called monistic theism by some scholars, and strict monotheism, but are not polytheistic as outsiders perceive the religion to be. Hinduism has often been confused to be polytheistic as many of Hinduism's adherents, i.e., Smartas, who follow Advaita philosophy, are monists, and view multiple manifestations of the one God or source of being. Hindu monists see one unity, with the personal Gods, different aspects of only One Supreme Being, like a single beam of light separated into colours by a prism, and are valid to worship.
Hindu views on monotheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"All scriptures of Hinduism say that Parabrahm is the supreme. They also agree that Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh are different aspects of Parabrahm."

So just to attack the theology of an avatar as automatically being less than the God overlooks the role and definition of an avatar, both in Vaishnav philosophy...and in Gurbani because there is a clear relationship in the definitions. The fundamental difference is Vaishnav schools worship Vishnu as the Supreme Lord, and Gurbani states the Parabrahm is the originator and thus supreme. Nevertheless, Gurbani reconizes that Vishnu emanates from the Parabrahm and posits Vishnu's avatars as the same lineage as Guru Nanak.

The ten most famous incarnations of Vishnu are collectively known as the 'Dasavatara' ('dasa' in Sanskrit means ten). This list is included in the Garuda Purana (1.86.10-11) and denotes those avatars most prominent in terms of their influence on human society.

1. Matsya, the fish, appeared in the Satya Yuga.
2. Kurma, the tortoise, appeared in the Satya Yuga.
3. Varaha, the boar, appeared in the Satya Yuga.
4. Narasimha, the half-man/half-lion appeared in the Satya Yuga.
5. Vamana, the dwarf, appeared in the Treta Yuga.
6. Parashurama, Rama with the axe, appeared in the Treta Yuga.-
7. Rama, Ramachandra, the prince and king of Ayodhya, appeared in the Treta Yuga.
8. Krishna (meaning 'dark coloured' or 'all attractive') appeared in the Dwapara Yuga along with his brother Balarama. According to the Bhagavata Purana Balarama is said to have appeared in the Dwapara Yuga (along with Krishna) as an incarnation of Ananta Shesha. He is also counted as an avatar of Vishnu by the majority of Vaishnava movements and is included as the ninth Dasavatara in some versions of the list which contain no reference to Buddha.
9. Buddha (meaning 'the enlightened one') appeared in the Kali Yuga (specifically as Siddhartha Gautama).
10. Kalki ("Eternity", or "time", or "The Destroyer of foulness"), who is expected to appear at the end of Kali Yuga, the time period in which we currently exist
Avatar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ਭਗਤ ਹੇਤਿ ਮਾਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਇ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਿਓ ॥
bhagath haeth maariou haranaakhas narasingh roop hoe dhaeh dhhariou ||
For the sake of His devotee Prahlaad, God assumed the form of the man-lion, and killed Harnaakhash.

ਨਾਮਾ ਕਹੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਸਿ ਕੇਸਵ ਅਜਹੂੰ ਬਲਿ ਕੇ ਦੁਆਰ ਖਰੋ ॥੪॥੧॥
naamaa kehai bhagath bas kaesav ajehoon bal kae dhuaar kharo ||4||1||
Says Naam Dayv, the beautiful-haired Lord is in the power of His devotees; He is standing at Balraja's door, even now! ||4||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 1105​

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390​

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​

Now you can continue to reject this philosophy, but you see it's a bit tricky because the avatar is less than the Parabrahm... but is like the speaking voice of silent God in sansaara. And in a state of God-consciousness the avatar is merged and thus consciousness is God.

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਨੇਮ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
karam dhharam naem brath poojaa ||
The karma of good actions, the Dharma of righteous living, religious rituals, fasts and worship

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਜਾਨੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥
paarabreham bin jaan n dhoojaa ||2||
- practice these, but do not know any other than the Supreme Lord God. ||2||

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਘਾਲ ॥ਜਾ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੩॥
thaa kee pooran hoee ghaal || jaa kee preeth apunae prabh naal ||3||
Those who place their love in God - their works are brought to fruition. ||3||

ਸੋ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਹੈ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
so baisano hai apar apaar ||
Infinitely invaluable is that Vaishnaav, that worshipper of Vishnu,

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਜੇ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥੪॥੯੬॥੧੬੫॥
kahu naanak jin thajae bikaar ||4||96||165||
says Nanak, who has renounced corruption. ||4||96||165||
~SGGS Ji p. 199​

This shabad is explaining the God-consciousness of the Satguru's Jyot which is the Light of Vaheguru. Sikhs are not enjoined to make idols out of the Guru's forms. So we do not say the created physical form of Guru is God. This would be illogical and impossible. And this is what the Sikh Rehat Maryada is saying. However, that tricky part about multidimensional realities, when the Satguru is merged in God-consciousness, He is God. And you can read for yourself, this is what Gurbani says. If there was no Oneness in merging with the Divine nature of God, there would be no Satguru. Because a Satguru cannot be an ordinary man. A Satguru takes on the burden of the karam of the world and carries across to mukti, liberation. How could Satguru give Divine consciousness if He didn't have it? No one can be liberated from a mere prophet. Gurbani could not have the Shabad-Jyot Divine Presence, know people's souls and karam, would have no power of liberation at all... unless Guruji is merged in the Divine consciousness and speaks to us as a Superconscious being. No one could write the Gurbani which as I'm trying to show, has aspects where it describes even the most advanced physics of our day. It could not do this if it was not written in God-consciousness. Because only God knows Himself.

ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
jaa karathaa sirathee ko saajae aapae jaanai soee ||
The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
kiv kar aakhaa kiv saalaahee kio varanee kiv jaanaa ||
How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?
~SGGS Ji p. 4​

ਹਕੁ ਸਚੁ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਿਆਨੇ ਸਿਆਮ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੨॥
hak sach khaalak khalak miaanae siaam moorath naahi ||2||
The True Creator Lord is diffused into His creation; He is not just the dark-skinned Krishna of legends. ||2||

ਅਸਮਾਨ *ਿਮ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੇ ਲਹੰਗ ਦਰੀਆ ਗੁਸਲ ਕਰਦਨ ਬੂਦ ॥
asamaan miyaanae lehang dhareeaa gusal karadhan boodh ||
Through the Tenth Gate, the stream of nectar flows; take your bath in this.
~SGGS Ji p. 727​

ਚੰਦਂ​*ੀ ਹਜਾਰ ਆਲਮ ਏਕਲ ਖਾਨਾਂ ॥
chandhanaee hajaar aalam eaekal khaanaan ||
You alone are the Lord of so many thousands of worlds.

ਹਮ ਚਿਨੀ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਸਾਂਵਲੇ ਬਰਨਾਂ ॥੩॥
ham chinee paathisaah saanvalae baranaan ||3||
You are my Lord King, like the dark-skinned Krishna. ||3||

ਅਸਪਤਿ ਗਜਪਤਿ ਨਰਹ ਨਰਿੰਦ ॥
asapath gajapath nareh narindh ||
You are the Lord of the sun, Lord Indra and Lord Brahma, the King of men.

ਨਾਮੇ ਕੇ ਸ੍ਵਾਮੀ ਮੀਰ ਮੁਕੰਦ ॥੪॥੨॥੩॥
naamae kae svaamee meer mukandh ||4||2||3||
You are the Lord and Master of Naam Dayv, the King, the Liberator of all. ||4||2||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 727
​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji

 

[Sikh80]

Hi Sis..,

Again a long post.
But the a small relevant gist; and an answer .

Yes Krishana is only an avtaar and there may be many of this kind.

But the Krishna that says that I am the ONE and meditate upon me, is not the one that we can even consider worthy of discussion.


Hope it is clear so far as i am concerned. You have your belief system.Let it be,Y it be thrusted upon many others????
And
Remember

That all you are talking is against Rehat.

Are you a christian convert?

 

[Sikh80]

Going against the Rehat is a sin.

 

[Sikh80]

Sikh80 ji,

The problem seems to have cleared up on this thread. But it persisted on Sikh Names thread. Aman ji is looking into it.

Sat Nam

Thanks aad002 ji for informing.

 

[Sikh80]

Respected Harjas ji,

Kindly put your knowledge and your language skills that you are bestowed upon with by the almighty to the sewa of sikhism and ,atleast, I shall be happy.

Good night
[as per my time]

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Again a long post.
But the a small relevant gist; and an answer .

Yes Krishana is only an avtaar and there may be many of this kind.

But the Krishna that says that I am the ONE and meditate upon me, is not the one that we can even consider worthy of discussion.


Hope it is clear so far as i am concerned. You have your belief system.Let it be,Y it be thrusted upon many others????
And
Remember

That all you are talking is against Rehat.

Are you a christian convert?

I was raised in America and so had opportunity to study different religions. I am not the one with the Abrahamic view. I read Bhagavad-Gita in my childhood veer ji. So no, I was never really a Christian, but I did live for a year in a cloistered Carmelite monastery to please my mother who is a Christian. I also spent time in a Hindu ashram. Is it proving something about the meaning of the Gurbani to make these observations about me personally?


But the Krishna that says that I am the ONE and meditate upon me, is not the one that we can even consider worthy of discussion...

You have your belief system.Let it be,Y it be thrusted upon many others????

It's a discussion forum. No one forces you to read or agree. In fact the wonderful welcome is you are free to post your own insights, opinions and responses or ignore what you don't like. Is it that I am offensive, or is this just challenging the prevailing view? And if I am wrong, would you kindly correct me?


That all you are talking is against Rehat.

Then why is what I am discussing found in Gurbani?

"Going against the Rehat is a sin."
Are you my judge? Wouldn't intent be a factor in determining paap? Do you presume to know my intent? Is there a Rehit which says we can't talk about these things or try to gain insight into obscure passages in Gurbani? We can only talk about the Gurbani which agree's with the prevailing view and can never freely investigate or even make mistakes trying to understand the GurShabad? And in any event, the Panj Piare determine what is a sin or against rehit. Would you kindly show specifically where and how I'm sinning against rehit?


"But the Krishna that says that I am the ONE and meditate upon me, is not the one that we can even consider worthy of discussion."

Can any learning or discussion be unworthy? The Gurbani is to answer questions. Why is it wrong to search the Gurbani?

Gurbani says:

ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.

ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||

ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥
aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them.

ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥
kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||
The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥
aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||
The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3||

ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥
sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 606​

How do we reconcile the apparent contradiction? Or is it a sin to read pauris of Gurbani trying to locate an answer. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it does seem to say the Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned one who plays the flute. Now since I am a moorakh trying to understand, and I didn't put this in Gurbani, the only difference is you'd rather not look at it, and I want to investigate.

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[pk70]

PK70 Ji,

What is your understanding of Jog or Yog as per SGGS ?

Namjap ji
In “Sree guru Granth Sahib Kosh, Bhai Veer Singh ji, In Guru Granth darpan” Dr Sahib Singh ji, make clear that according to Gurbani, Yoga is to be tuned to HIM. Yoga physical exercises are not advocated. While going into last stage known as Dasam Duar, a Bhagat can feel all those experiences claimed by Yogis. Literally it is falling in love. Love cannot survive if ego is there, to over come, battle starts within to over come. Going on this path of love for HIM, person experiences inexpressible state of mind, hints are given in the Gurbani.
Second thing, your thread is very interesting, it is not insult to any one. It makes more clear why Guru ji gives reference to Hindu Devtas and mythological stories. They are of no importance for a Sikh than just references as many references are found in Gurbani like caste system, astrology, suitability of time, yug, day, twelve months etc are man made, in context of which one is good or bad, Sikhs should neve give them any importsnce. Regarding respect of others Devtas, Prophets, yes, we respect all others and we have nothing to do what they do. If stone is God for some one, so it be!
The quote you gave about Krishan clearly says that it was attributed to GOD, not [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT] who shows promiscuous behavior in Bindravan regardless of the spellings. If you see spellings of RAM, they are almost same in some places but are used in different context. When Sikhs were engaged in Gorilla War to survive, Hindu- mentality people and some Some Hindus in disguise of Sikhs, picked up words like this, Murar, Ram, Krishna, Nar Singh, Vishnu, Parvati, veda, simriti and tried to bring back the new relevation into old "trade". Daya Nand, Arrya Samaji spoke about Guru Nanak in very harsh words, many Sikhs just kept sleeping, forcing Bhai Kahn Singh to write" Ham Hindu Nahin" The damage is done. I feel more damage doers are those who keep making link with all this stuff. Their argument is" Why it is there?" There are other references are too. But they dont listen. Even Bhagatas wrote against this, read a shabad by Namdev who directly talks about these stories. But they are programmed.and wont listen and realize the reality Then Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh ji are directly related to Hindu stories- characters. Were they real? Or myth? It is not our problem to check it out. We are inspired by Gurbani to clean our mind, over come vices through being love with HIM and battling against primal forces and dump fake rituals, the rest for us is of no importance.
[/FONT]

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

The quote you gave about Krishan clearly says that it was attributed to GOD, not Krishna who shows promiscuous behavior in Bindravan regardless of the spellings.

The pauri precisely states that the God was in the form of Krishna who is recognized in Gurbani as an avataar (manifestation/incarnation/ descending of the God to earth) for that particular age. Can their be any disagreement? We know that Gurbani also corrects that all the major Hindu devas fell into Maya. I agree with you completely, that when Krishna as an avtar spoke from God-consciousness in Bhagavad-Gita it was not as personality of Krishna. But Gurbani clearly states that:

ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.

ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||​

So how can it be so objectionable what is written in Bhagavad-Gita that an avtaar of the God spoke from God-consciousness, as that is the identity and purpose of the descent of an avataar into sansaaric realms. How can this be a sin against rehit if I'm reading Gurbani to the best of my ability to gain understanding. We acknowledge Krishna is a Deva and an avtar of the God for specific age. We don't honor Krishna or worship him as the supreme manifestation of Parabrahm, Ek Oangkar like the Vaishnavs do. But even Gurbani clearly states in many pauris that vaishnav bhagkti and bhairaag are the way to approach the Supreme. So it is clear that Vaishnav school of Hinduism is acknowledged in Gurbani as having been a path to God and sincere religion for the age.

So why would we find it objectionable? It is not the boat of salvation for the current age. Guruji has gone higher in advancement and spiritual understanding than any previous avtar and has grasped the absolute limits of the unknowable Parabrahm, and thus is secure, Maya cannot touch Guruji and lead to corruption as was witnessed in incarnations of the past. Gurbani cannot contradict. It has to be reconciled as giving One True testimony of events, and this is the only objection I have to Namjap in labeling every aspect of Hinduism in Gurbani as mythological, legends and stories. Clearly there are places where Gurbani says this. But not ALL references are mere historic references to placate a Hindu population. Clearly there are elements of truth and profound symbolism behind these alleged "stories" which relate to the very nature of Sikh theology.


I mean, how far do we want to take this theme? Is the concept of avataar untrue and legend because it's rooted in Vaishnav tradition? So then when we read Gurbani say that Guruji is an avataara, we contradict it and say it isn't true, doesn't mean what it clearly says? See this is what I object to. Also Hindu religion is living, vibrant religion for Hindu people. To label ALL their devas and beliefs and symbols under heading of "legends" implies everything is untrue, like we are reading ancient Greek mythology about quaint historical beliefs and which have no reality. I object to the assumption that anything in Gurbani is intrinsically devoid of reality or symbolically untrue or mere historic curiosity simply because we do not understand. I am of the conviction that entire Gurbani is revealed, Divine, and supernatural truth which penetrates mysteries of the nirgun and sargun aspects of the Parabrahm Vaheguru. Gurbani brings into sansaaric realm hyperdimensional realities even beyond comprehension of a human brain. We do our best to understand, but Guru perceives what we cannot. And so I show respect for entire Gurbani as Living, true and real, even what I cannot grasp.

Descriptions of the Mahadevas are not said to be mythology, but reality. I would find it completely offensive as a Sikh, if a Hindu was posting that stories of Guru in Gurbani were all legends and untrue. It would be showing the heighth of disrespect for our sentiments. And for this reason I request that the title be changed to something less dismissive and disrespectful to:

"Hindu symbolism"

Which neither implies complete reality and we can question and evaluate those elements clearly said to be legend from Gurbani, and neither implies total disregard for reality to offend Hindu sentiments and insult Gurbani as being mythological or untrue. But otherwise, I thank Namjap Ji for bringing these little known details and symbolism to our understanding, as all knowledge is a blessing from the Vaheguru. And clearly here, no one is elevating a Hindu deva for veneration by the Sikh community which WOULD be something contrary to Khalsa rehit.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Ham Hindu Nahin" The damage is done. I feel more damage doers are those who keep making link with all this stuff. Their argument is" Why it is there?" There are other references are too. But they dont listen. Even Bhagatas wrote against this, read a shabad by Namdev who directly talks about these stories. But they are programmed.and wont listen and realize the reality Then Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh ji are directly related to Hindu stories- characters. Were they real? Or myth? It is not our problem to check it out.

Just because elements of Vaishnav philosophy exist in Gurbani doesn't make Sikhism into Hinduism, that is a political construct to deny independance and nationhood. Apart from the political sphere, how can anything written in Gurbani be disregarded as "not for us" or as "myth and untrue?"

If it is in Gurbani, there is a deep meaning for us to perceive. For example, how many threads and discussions have centered around, "Are the Guru's (One Jyot) God? And theologically we can't even begin to understand this if we disregard the pauris relating to traditional Vaishnav philosophy of Avtaars and the Primal absolute (nirgun and sargun Parabrahm). To eliminate this point of the Gurbani because you think it "makes Sikhs into Hindus" renders the Sikh community incapable of understanding the nature of Guru, was He 10 bodies of men, or God the Uncreated, or God-conscious avatar?

Clearly He was not the physical body, so we do not worship His manhood like an idol. Clearly He was not the Uncreated Parabrahm. And just as clearly, He was a Divine being descended into the sansaara who could speak from God-consciousness. And this explains the Divine nature of the shabad. It comes from higher dimensional realm of reality. And the thing is, to discuss concepts from higher levels of reality, the human brain is insufficient to digest. That is why symbolic mathematical physics is required to grasp and comprehend the superior dimensional realities. So we know from science that symbolism, and mythology are used to explain profoundly deep truths which are counterintuitive to the human intellect. This is why I cannot dismiss outright any story, however outlandish, without analyzing what the symbolism must be. For example:

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael ||
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਬੰਧੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ ਜਗਿ ਸੋ ਖੇਲੁ ॥
thrihu gun bandhhee dhaehuree jo aaeiaa jag so khael ||
The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.
~SGGS Ji p. 21​

To apprehend Shiva and Shakti as symbolic of consciousness and matter tells us how the legendary qualities have a realistic application. Yet, I do not say this alone dismisses also the independant personality of the devas either to subordinate them to mere colorful susperstitions of primitive scientific explanations. For one position is worshipping an idol making a God out of the mere description and the other position is atheistic. Look at it this way, the energy field pervading matter is conscious. It is consciousness independant of any human brain and therefore not the personality of an individual human. The energy within you is conscious. It is interconnected with universal aliveness. So you see, a description of Shiva and Shakti as matter and consciousness speaks to both the materiality as well as to a pervasive, Divine, pre-existing immanent conscious level of awareness which enlivens the materiality. God is conscious in all materiality (even a rock) through the union of Shiva and Shakti.

The first principle of the conscious energy field is that it's everywhere and that it manifests itself in everything. There is a realm of pure spirit that exists beyond the field - but in terms of the reality that surrounds us and that gave rise to us, the conscious energy field is ubiquitous...

The fifth quality of the field is that the field expresses itself through opposites. The conscious energy field creates experience through opposing energies - or at least that's our perception of it, because at the level of the field these oppositions are able to completely coexist. In the conscious energy field, a coin can be heads and tails at the same time. The distinction between a saint and a sinner doesn't exist. Both are part of the same energy field -- so at the deepest level everyone is both a saint and a sinner.

All of us are divine and diabolical at the same time. Sacred and profane at the same instant. And it's only because we contain these oppositions that our experience of life has any meaning. All experience is by contrast. You can't have hot without cold. You can't have pleasure without pain. You can't have up without down. Opposing energies create experience.

A still higher level of transformation is God consciousness. You can see and feel the life throb of the spirit in every object of perception. You realise that everything you see and hear and touch is animated by the full power and wisdom of the universe. This is the level of consciousness that generates synchronicity. It's very important to recognise and cultivate it within yourself. And the last state is unity consciousness. Where the spirit within you not only perceives but merges with the larger spirit - become one with it. This is where there's instant manifestation of thought into matter. In unity consciousness, there's spontaneous fulfilment of every desire. So those are the seven qualities of the conscious energy field that I want to emphasise right now.

The field is everywhere and in everything. It's omnipresent.

The field is holographic,

The field is made up of attention and intention.

The field manifests in different vibrations.

The field expresses itself through opposites.

The field is sexual in the sense that all creativity and inspiration is sexual.

And finally, the field is constantly evolving and transforming, just as the consciousness of every human being is evolving and transforming.The 7 PRINCIPLES OF THE CONSCIOUS ENERGY FIELD

As the above passage describes duality, how the opposition of energy fields is necessary to express material experience, it shows how there would be no foundation of matter without duality. There would be no material existence. Shiva and Shakti represent symbolic dimensional structure but also conscious aliveness at the heart of matter. Conscious energy. God is conscious in the energy. We can't make artificial divisions based in dualistic misunderstanding that Shiv is NOT Parabrahm, and therefore not God. In this aspect, both Shiva and Shakti are derivitives of the One generative potential. The Parabrahm is manifest in the creation by the conscious awareness of Shiva and Shakti pervading within it. This is only the dimensional unfolding of how creation works. And it's not mythology. It's symbolic of real processes which can be explained by science.

Look at the Gurbani again:

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਬੰਧੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ ਜਗਿ ਸੋ ਖੇਲੁ ॥
thrihu gun bandhhee dhaehuree jo aaeiaa jag so khael ||
The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.​

And we perceive immediately the reality and necessity for the union of Shiva and Shakti to provide support for the existence of consciousness in matter, but the effect is to create the bondage of duality. So when we reflect on the levels of the energy field which pervades matter, we see an element of it is sexual, in the aspect of generative or creative. And because this is embedded in the materiality, it explains this:

ਉਛਲਿਆ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਾਲ ਮਤਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਤਉ ਆਨਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਗਲਿ ਬਾਂਧਿਆ ॥੨॥
oushhaliaa kaam kaal math laagee tho aan sakath gal baandhhiaa ||2||
You are overflowing with sexual desire, and your intellect is stained with darkness; you are held in the grip of Shakti's power. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 93​

So we shouldn't be offended by these kinds of references. They are illustrating for us the nature of material existence and explaining the weaknesses at the core of our being which are related to existence in sansaaric world and human nature. The goal of course is how to transcend these limitations and bondage.

 

[Astroboy]

So why would we find it objectionable? It is not the boat of salvation for the current age. Guruji has gone higher in advancement and spiritual understanding than any previous avtar and has grasped the absolute limits of the unknowable Parabrahm, and thus is secure, Maya cannot touch Guruji and lead to corruption as was witnessed in incarnations of the past. Gurbani cannot contradict. It has to be reconciled as giving One True testimony of events, and this is the only objection I have to Namjap in labeling every aspect of Hinduism in Gurbani as mythological, legends and stories. Clearly there are places where Gurbani says this. But not ALL references are mere historic references to placate a Hindu population. Clearly there are elements of truth and profound symbolism behind these alleged "stories" which relate to the very nature of Sikh theology.

Reading your reply, Harjas Ji, it seems to be a parallel like Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
By this I mean Vedas, Shastras and Simarties become the OLD TESTAMENTS and SGGS the new testaments.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Reading your reply, Harjas Ji, it seems to be a parallel like Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
By this I mean Vedas, Shastras and Simarties become the OLD TESTAMENTS and SGGS the new testaments.

This is a superficial characterization since Western and Eastern traditions have radical differences. Judaism says God is an indivisible Oneness, and Christianity says God is a Trintiy with one fully human and equally fully Divine incarnation and is really a synthesis of Greek and Roman religions into Judaism with roots from Egyptian and Iranian religions. And Islam goes back to the Oneness. Judaism and Islam have no concept of an avatar, yet Jesus is like an avatar which has some parallel to Krishna (Krystos-Christ). So the traditions really don't fit well together as it seems. While Christianity and Islam both accept the Jewish scriptures as foundational in their beliefs, Judaism really only sees the Torah (first 5 books) as Divine, and do not recognize at all any posibility for God to be incarnate in a man. So there is no progression of beliefs here.

Moreover Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj isn't a testament. It's a Living Presence. The New Testament is just a collection of stories about Jesus and lives of disciples. There is no parallel at all. It was written hundreds of years after his death. How can you compare the Vedas, Puraanas and simritis as an Old Testament? It's obvious that Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the complete wisdom of the Hindu scriptures, the Q'uran and the kateb and also a more complete and correct expression of spirituality than what has ever been before, for a new age. So we would have to conclude every major scripture in the world is an Old Testament compared to Gurbani. Gurbani is the new revelation of spirituality for the whole world, not just Hindus. Unless you think Shabad Guru is just a history book.


Look at it this way, from what Gurbani is saying, are there previous ages? How did people reach God in those ages? Or was there no way for God to reach the people? Have there never been holy God realized souls before Guru? Are there no holy people before the Sikhs?

And do living things evolve over time? Or is everything static and unchanging, as in a bird always a bird and no evolutionary process?


Ask yourself, is the Gurbani saying there is a spiritual evolution at work in the world based on different ages and understandings of men? And think about the first avatar being a fish, then think again about evolutionary theory that life evolved from the ocean, from fish and then to human beings. Gurbani is relating a story of creation in this pauris, not aligning itself to Hindu religion. The wisdom of the Vedas and of the ancient truths isn't separate, all truth is One. It doesn't belong to Hinduism. Guruji is relating true facts about the material universe to explain process of bondage and liberation. Gurbani contains the fullness of the wisdom of the past. You don't have to cling to old scriptures and forms of the God. But because truth never contradicts, those elements which were truth in past ages don't become untruths in this one.

ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸਣੁ ਖੜੇ ॥
thudhh dhhiaaeinih baedh kathaebaa san kharrae ||
The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You.

ਗਣਤੀ ਗਣੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਤੇਰੈ ਦਰਿ ਪੜੇ ॥
ganathee ganee n jaae thaerai dhar parrae ||
Uncounted are those who fall at Your Door.
~SGGS Ji p. 518​

ਗੁਰ ਸਭਾ ਏਵ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾ ਨੇੜੈ ਨਾ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
sapath dheep sapath saagaraa nav khandd chaar vaedh dhas asatt puraanaa ||
The seven islands, seven seas, nine continents, four Vedas and eighteen Puraanas

ਹਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਤੂੰ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਭਾਣਾ ॥
har sabhanaa vich thoon varathadhaa har sabhanaa bhaanaa ||
O Lord, You pervade and permeate all. Lord, everyone loves You.

ਸਭਿ ਤੁਝੈ ਧਿਆਵਹਿ ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਰਗ ਪਾਣਾ ॥
sabh thujhai dhhiaavehi jeea janth har saarag paanaa ||
All beings and creatures meditate on You, Lord. You hold the earth in Your Hands.

ਜੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧਦੇ ਤਿਨ ਹਉ ਕੁਰਬਾਣਾ ॥
jo guramukh har aaraadhhadhae thin ho kurabaanaa ||
I am a sacrifice to those Gurmukhs who worship and adore the Lord.

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਕਰਿ ਚੋਜ ਵਿਡਾਣਾ ॥੪॥
thoon aapae aap varathadhaa kar choj viddaanaa ||4||
You Yourself are All-pervading; You stage this wondrous drama! ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 84​

ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਸੋਈ ॥
niragun saragun aapae soee ||
The Lord Himself is Unmanifest and Unrelated; He is Manifest and Related as well.

ਤਤੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
thath pashhaanai so panddith hoee ||
Those who recognize this essential reality are the true Pandits, the spiritual scholars.
~SGGS Ji p. 128​

Gurbani says the unmanifest Lord is manifesting Himself throughout the ages. Why would this be a parallel to dogmatic Old testaments? Nowhere does Gurbani say cart around with you and study from the Vedas, Q'uran or Kateb. Gurbani is Gurbani. It has no parallel. But likewise, it didn't spring out of nowhere. Gurbani is a Living Divine manifestation of Shabad-Jyot which has been shining in the world since the beginning of creation. And that is because Gurbani is no mere history book, but has within it even the unmanifest which is outside of the bondage of Time, and therefore, Timeless.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੪੪॥
naanak eaek joth dhue moorathee sabadh milaavaa hoe ||4||11||44||
O Nanak, the One Light has two forms; through the Shabad, union is attained. ||4||11||44
~SGGS Ji p. 30​

Light shines into the dark world. But only through Guruji's Shabad is the world able to attain union or merging. This is the completeness.

 

[Astroboy]

Will Krishna qualify as a Satguru of his era ?
Will Moses qualify as Satguru during his time ?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Gurbani describes Krishan as an avataar. It is silent on the role of Moshe Rabbeinu. So anything further would be mere speculation. Gurbani describes Guru Nanak as an avatar and also greater than the Maha Devas because he penetrated the totality of the unknowable God. And Gurbani says the Maha Devas fall at the feet of Guru and beg for the Naam. So Guruji is Satguru to the Maha Devas.

 

[Astroboy]

What do you understand by this tuk:

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
गुरु ईसरु गुरु गोरखु बरमा गुरु पारबती माई ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā*ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


There is a very great chance that the Hindus and Sikhs will understand this tuk differently from each other.
[/SIZE]

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

What do you understand by this tuk:

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
गुरु ईसरु गुरु गोरखु बरमा गुरु पारबती माई ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā*ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


There is a very great chance that the Hindus and Sikhs will understand this tuk differently from each other.

That's because we have Gurbani and they don't. Gurbani tells us that Guru is the Parabrahm. And absolutely everything derives from Him. The Unmanifest Uncreated is also manifest in all creation. Gurbani tells us that Shiv, Vishnu and Brahma are the supportive material structure and could not reach the limits of the unknowable uncreated and so were in bondage to the 3 gunas and duality. However, Gurbani aslo states the the infinite Supreme Parabrahm manifested Himself in the creation, in the Hindu devas, and in all that is.

ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਗ+ਵਿੰਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥
gur govindh guovindh guroo hai naanak bhaedh n bhaaee ||4||1||8||
The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||​

ਤਿਸੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
this saranaaee sadhaa sukh paarabreham karathaar ||1||
In His Sanctuary there is eternal peace. He is the Supreme Lord God, the Creator. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 45​

ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬਾ ਆਪੇ ਖਟ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
aapae sur nar gan gandhharabaa aapae khatt dharasan kee baanee ||
He Himself is the angelic being, the heavenly herald, and the celestial singer. He Himself is the one who explains the six schools of philosophy.

ਆਪੇ ਸਿਵ ਸੰਕਰ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਣੀ ॥
aapae siv sankar mehaesaa aapae guramukh akathh kehaanee ||
He Himself is Shiva, Shankara and Mahaysh; He Himself is the Gurmukh, who speaks the Unspoken Speech.

ਆਪੇ ਜੋਗੀ ਆਪੇ ਭੋਗੀ ਆਪੇ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਫਿਰੈ ਬਿਬਾਣੀ ॥
aapae jogee aapae bhogee aapae sanniaasee firai bibaanee ||
He Himself is the Yogi, He Himself is the Sensual Enjoyer, and He Himself is the Sannyaasee, wandering through the wilderness.

ਆਪੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਸਿਆਣੀ ॥
aapai naal gosatt aap oupadhaesai aapae sugharr saroop siaanee ||
He discusses with Himself, and He teaches Himself; He Himself is discrete, graceful and wise.

ਆਪਣਾ ਚੋਜੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੧੨॥
aapanaa choj kar vaekhai aapae aapae sabhanaa jeeaa kaa hai jaanee ||12||
Staging His own play, He Himself watches it; He Himself is the Knower of all beings. ||12|
~SGGS Ji p. 553​

ਕਾਲ ਹੀਨ ਕਲਾ ਸੰਜੁਗਤਿ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਦੇਸ ॥
Kaal hoon kalaa sanjugat(i) akaal purakh ades||
Thou art Dearthless, Almighty, Timeless Purasha and Countryless.

ਧਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁ ਭਰਮ ਰਹਿਤ ਅਭੂਤ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਸ ॥
Dharam dhaam su bharam rahit abhoot alakh abhes||
Thou art the Abode of righteousness; Thou art Illusionless, Garbless, Incomprehensible and devoid of five elements.

ਅੰਗ ਰਾਗ ਨ ਰੰਗ ਜਾਕਹਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਤਿ ਨ ਨਾਮ ॥
Ang raag na rang jaakah(i) jaat(i) paat(i) na naam||
Thou art without body, without attachment, without colour, caste, lineage and name.

ਗਰਬ ਗੰਜਨ ਦੁਸਟ ਭੰਜਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦਾਇਕ ਕਾਮ ॥੮੪॥
Garab ganjan dusat bhanjan mukat(i) daaik kaam||84||
Thou art the Destroyer of ego, the vanquisher of tyrants and performer of works leading to salvation.

ਆਪ ਰੂਪ ਅਮੀਕ ਅਨ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਏਕ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਵਧੂਤ ॥
aap roop amook an-ustat(i) ek purakh avdhoot||
Thou art the Deepest and Indescribable Entity, the One unique ascetic Purusha.

ਗਰਬ ਗੰਜਨ ਸਰਬ ਭੰਜਨ ਆਦਿ ਰੂਪ ਅਸੂਤ ॥
Garab ganjan sarab bhanjan aadh roop asoot||
Thou, the Unborn Primal Entity, art the Destroyer of all egocentric people.

ਅੰਗ ਹੀਨ ਅਭੰਗ ਅਨਾਤਮ ਏਕ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
Ang hoon abhang anaatam ek purakh apaar||
Thou, the Boundless Purusha, art Limbless, Indestructible and without self.

ਸਰਬ ਲਾਇਕ ਸਰਬ ਘਾਇਕ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰ ॥੮੫॥
Sarab laaik sarab ghaaik sarab ko pratipaar||85||
Thou art capable of doing everything, Thou Destroyest all and Sustainest all.

ਸਰਬ ਗੰਤਾ ਸਰਬ ਹੰਤਾ ਸਰਬ ਤੇ ਅਨਭੇਖ ॥
Sarab gantaa sarab hanta sarab te anbhekh||
Thou knowest all, Destroyest all and art beyond all the guises.

ਸਰਬ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਨ ਜਾਨਹੀ ਜਿਂਹ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗੁ ਅਰੁ ਰੇਖ ॥
Sarab Saastra na jaan-hi jinh roop rang(u) ar(u) rekh||
Thy form, colour and marks are not known to all the Scriptures.

ਪਰਮ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਜਾਕਹਿ ਨੇਤ ਭਾਖਤ ਨਿੱਤ ॥
Param Bed Puraan jaakah(i) net bhaakhat nitt||
The Vedas and the Puransa always declare Thee the Supreme and the Greatest.

ਕੋਟਿ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਵਹੁ ਚਿੱਤਿ ॥੮੬॥
Kottee Sinmrit Puraan na aavaoo vahu chitt(i)||86||
None can comprehend thee completely through millions of Smritis, Puranas and Shastras.
~DAsam Granth Sahib Ji p. 15​

ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ਉਪਾਇਓਨੁ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ ਕਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
sanjog vijog oupaaeioun srisattee kaa mool rachaaeiaa ||
Creating union and separation, He laid the foundations of the Universe.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਾਜੀਅਨੁ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥
hukamee srisatt saajeean jothee joth milaaeiaa ||
By His Command, the Lord of Light fashioned the Universe, and infused His Divine Light into it.

ਜੋਤੀ ਹੂੰ ਸਭੁ ਚਾਨਣਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥
jothee hoon sabh chaananaa sathigur sabadh sunaaeiaa ||
From the Lord of Light, all light originates. The True Guru proclaims the Word of the Shabad.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਸਿਰਿ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes thrai gun sir dhhandhhai laaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, under the influence of the three dispositions, were put to their tasks.

ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਓਨੁ ਤੁਰੀਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
maaeiaa kaa mool rachaaeioun thureeaa sukh paaeiaa ||2||
He created the root of Maya, and the peace obtained in the fourth state of consciousness. ||2
~SGGS Ji p. 509​

ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥
kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa ||
Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.

ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa ||
The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.

ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ਸਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੭॥
poorai sathigur aap dhikhaaeiaa sach naam nisathaaraa ||7||
The Perfect True Guru Himself has made it clear, that emancipation comes through the True Name. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 754​