Hinduism Hindu Legends

[Astroboy]

Harjas Kaur Ji,

Here's another intepretation of the gurbani tuk you mentioned. There is a difference in meaning between Krishan and krishnang. Below translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh is self explanatory:-



ਮਃ ੨ ॥
मः २ ॥
Mehlā 2.
2nd Guru.

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
एक क्रिसनं सरब देवा देव देवा त आतमा ॥
Ėk krisanʼn sarab ḏėvā ḏėv ḏėvā ṯa āṯmā.
The One Lord is the God of all gods and he is the soul of their godliness.

 

[Sikh80]

Respected namjap ji,

There are many places where there is reference to krishna that clearly states that He is not the God.
Sikh philosophy rejects the incarnation of God in human format.It is the area that is clear and within this we have to define various interpretations.
At other places Krishna has been referred to as a generic name of Lord as well. But the one who states in Geeta that I am God and meditate upon me is not the krishna that we recognize as God.

One has own way of interpretation. It has also been stated that there are many Krishnas and if I am not forgetting the exact term has been that there are million of Krishnas. Yes, we should respect the Devtas of fellow beings but it is not as per the sikh philosophy.
Let us look at the following 'sabad'.

[I had deleted one post as i do not intend to buy arguments on the matters that are well settled as per sikhi.One is amenable to discuss the things that do not deflect us from the basics of sikhi that we know of.]
​

ang165
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fourth Mehl:

Service to the True Guru is fruitful and rewarding;
meeting Him, I meditate on the Name of the Lord, the Lord Master.
So many are emancipated along with those who meditate on the Lord. ||1||
O GurSikhs, chant the Name of the Lord, O my Siblings of Destiny.
Chanting the Lord's Name, all sins are washed away. ||1||Pause||
When one meets the Guru, then the mind becomes centered.
The five passions, running wild, are brought to rest by meditating on the Lord.
Night and day, within the body-village, the Glorious Praises of the Lord are sung. ||2||
Those who apply the dust of the Feet of the True Guru to their faces,
renounce falsehood and enshrine love for the Lord.
Their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny. ||3||
Service to the Guru is pleasing to the Lord Himself.
Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet.
O Nanak, the Lord Himself saves the Gurmukhs. ||4||5||43||​

 

[Sikh80]

Exploring further one also finds the following.
​

Gauree Maajh, Fourth Mehl:
ang 178



Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful.
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.
The Lord Himself enjoys every heart, O my Lord of the Universe; He Himself is the Ravisher and the Enjoyer.
The Lord is All-knowing - He cannot be fooled, O my Lord of the Universe. He is the True Guru, the Yogi. ||1||
He Himself created the world, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself plays in so many ways!
Some enjoy enjoyments, O my Lord of the Universe, while others wander around naked, the poorest of the poor.
He Himself created the world, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord gives His gifts to all who beg for them.
His devotees have the Support of the Naam, O my Lord of the Universe; they beg for the sublime sermon of the Lord. ||2||
The Lord Himself inspires His devotees to worship Him, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord fulfills the desires of the minds of His devotees.
He Himself is permeating and pervading the waters and the lands, O my Lord of the Universe; He is All-pervading - He is not far away.
The Lord Himself is within the self, and outside as well, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is fully pervading everywhere.
The Lord, the Supreme Soul, is diffused everywhere, O my Lord of the Universe. The Lord Himself beholds all; His Immanent Presence is pervading everywhere. ||3||
O Lord, the music of the praanic wind is deep within, O my Lord of the Universe; as the Lord Himself plays this music, so does it vibrate and resound.
O Lord, the treasure of the Naam is deep within, O my Lord of the Universe; through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Lord God is revealed.
He Himself leads us to enter His Sanctuary, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord preserves the honor of His devotees.
By great good fortune, one joins the Sangat, the Holy Congregation, O my Lord of the Universe; O servant Nanak, through the Naam, one's affairs are resolved. ||4||4||30||68||​

 

[Sikh80]

With such a clear cut statements that are contained in bani the second claim that Vedas are the source and sum total of sikhi stands false. Sikhism treats Vedas as only a part of maya.

Sikhism is an independent religion with many commonalities with other eastern philosophies. But it does not mean that we forget that we are taught and give 'quotes' on the areas that are against the basics of sikhism.

Sikh philosophy should prevail while interpreting the things and should not be disturbed. No compromise is acceptable, howsoever, verbose one may advocate and profess the view points.
One should avoid quoting Bani in tilt of the faith that has been rejected by Gurus for the reasons that we need not discuss here. There are many threads that discuss sikhism and sikh philosophy.
I am not very sure as to what exactly Rehat says about Vedas. kindly enlighten if you have an access to the Rehat as it is the Panthic approach that is the guide for sikhs.

 

[Sikh80]

Aasaa, Fourth Mehl:
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, everyone embodied contentment and meditation; religion stood upon four feet.
With mind and body, they sang of the Lord, and attained supreme peace. In their hearts was the spiritual wisdom of the Lord's Glorious Virtues.
Their wealth was the spiritual wisdom of the Lord's Glorious Virtues; the Lord was their success, and to live as Gurmukh was their glory.
Inwardly and outwardly, they saw only the One Lord God; for them there was no other second.
They centered their consciousness lovingly on the Lord, Har, Har. The Lord's Name was their companion, and in the Court of the Lord, they obtained honor.
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, everyone embodied contentment and meditation; religion stood upon four feet. ||1||
Then came the Silver Age of Trayta Yuga; men's minds were ruled by power, and they practiced celibacy and self-discipline.
The fourth foot of religion dropped off, and three remained. Their hearts and minds were inflamed with anger.
Their hearts and minds were filled with the horribly poisonous essence of anger. The kings fought their wars and obtained only pain.
Their minds were afflicted with the illness of egotism, and their self-conceit and arrogance increased.
If my Lord, Har, Har, shows His Mercy, my Lord and Master eradicates the poison by the Guru's Teachings and the Lord's Name.
Then came the Silver Age of Trayta Yuga; men's minds were ruled by power, and they practiced celibacy and self-discipline. ||2||
The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna.
The penitents practiced penance, they offered sacred feasts and charity, and performed many rituals and religious rites.
They performed many rituals and religious rites; two legs of religion dropped away, and only two legs remained.
So many heroes waged great wars; in their egos they were ruined, and they ruined others as well.
The Lord, Compassionate to the poor, led them to meet the Holy Guru. Meeting the True Guru, their filth is washed away.
The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and the people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna. ||3||
The Lord ushered in the Dark Age, the Iron Age of Kali Yuga; three legs of religion were lost, and only the fourth leg remained intact.
Acting in accordance with the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the medicine of the Lord's Name is obtained. Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, divine peace is obtained.
The season of singing the Lord's Praise has arrived; the Lord's Name is glorified, and the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, grows in the field of the body.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, if one plants any other seed than the Name, all profit and capital is lost.
Servant Nanak has found the Perfect Guru, who has revealed to him the Naam within his heart and mind.
The Lord ushered in the Dark Age, the Iron Age of Kali Yuga; three legs of religion were lost, and only the fourth leg remained intact. ||4||4||11||​

 

[Sikh80]

All that I want to state is that Krishna is worthy of respect as Devta only and he is not GOD as was the intention when I originally posted that we do not recognize Krishna as HE or as the Lord.

It is not as per sikhism to treat anyone like shiva, Brahma or other Devtas as God although they had everything that God gives to all.
These are only terms of respect for me. I cannot extend the generalization to make them god. It shall be a liberalism but only a hypothesis.
I feel guilty of disturbing the flow of this threads but all this happens when one is learning.

 

[Astroboy]

Sikh80 Ji,

What do you have to say to this tuk :-


Page 230, Line 17
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਵੇਦ ਅਭਿਆਸਾ ॥
ब्रहमा मूलु वेद अभिआसा ॥
Barahmā mūl vėḏ abẖi*āsā.
Brahma is the founder of the study of the Vedas.
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Sikh80]

Respected namjap ji,
I have no problems with the names of Hindu gods and their inclusion the text. However, my focus is clear that none out of them is supreme creator. Although creator has no name and can be addressed by any name. But 'waheguru' suits us. I am happy with this kind of interpretations.
You have to inform us of Rehat of sikhs and Vedas. kindly let us know, i could not lay my hand .
I shall peacefully look into the 'tuk' that you have stated above.It is a grey area for me.

Regards.

 

[pk70]

namjapji
That whole Shabad makes more clear that all this read and said about fall short of realizing HIM, because the victory of Maya over all of them make them insignificant in context of realizing Him, so it is the Satguru that helps us to win this battle against Maya. Point is very important to understand Sikhi while all these stories are told. Guru ji goes further to state (in another Shabad )that actually all is His game, the devotee should follow Guru only and live by his instructions and pay attention to none other.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Harjas Kaur Ji,
Here's another intepretation of the gurbani tuk you mentioned. There is a difference in meaning between Krishan and krishnang. Below translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh is self explanatory:-

ਮਃ ੨ ॥
मः २ ॥
Mehlā 2.
2nd Guru.

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
एक क्रिसनं सरब देवा देव देवा त आतमा ॥
Ėk krisanʼn sarab ḏėvā ḏėv ḏėvā ṯa āṯmā.
The One Lord is the God of all gods and he is the soul of their godliness.

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.
~sggs jI P. 174​

ਆਸ ਪਾਸ ਘਨ ਤੁਰਸੀ ਕਾ ਬਿਰਵਾ ਮਾਝ ਬਨਾ ਰਸਿ ਗਾਊਂ ਰੇ ॥
aas paas ghan thurasee kaa biravaa maajh banaa ras gaaoon rae ||
All around, there are thick bushes of sweet basil, and there in the midst of the forest, the Lord is singing with joy.

ਉਆ ਕਾ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਮੋਹੀ ਗੁਆਰਨਿ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਛੋਡਿ ਨ ਆਉ ਨ ਜਾਹੂ ਰੇ ॥੧॥
ouaa kaa saroop dhaekh mohee guaaran mo ko shhodd n aao n jaahoo rae ||1||
Beholding His wondrous beauty, the milk-maid was entranced, and said, "Please don't leave me; please don't come and go!"||1||

ਤੋਹਿ ਚਰਨ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗੋ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ॥
thohi charan man laago saaringadhhar ||
My mind is attached to Your Feet, O Archer of the Universe;

ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜੋ ਬਡਭਾਗੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
so milai jo baddabhaago ||1|| rehaao ||
he alone meets You, who is blessed by great good fortune. ||1||Pause||

ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਨ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਚਰਾਵਤ ਗਾਊ ਰੇ ॥
bindhraaban man haran manohar kirasan charaavath gaaoo rae ||
In Brindaaban, where Krishna grazes his cows, he entices and fascinates my mind.

ਜਾ ਕਾ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਤੁਹੀ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਨਾਊ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੨॥੧੫॥੬੬॥
jaa kaa thaakur thuhee saaringadhhar mohi kabeeraa naaoo rae ||2||2||15||66||
You are my Lord Master, the Archer of the Universe; my name is Kabeer. ||2||2||15||66|~SGGS Ji p. 338​

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 469​

Why is (ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ) the same as (ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ) In the vaak discussing Vrindaban and cows?


Look, (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ) is also same as in Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. What do you think it means veer ji? It means Krishna in one place but it doesn't mean Krishna in the other?

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕੋਪ ਜਬ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰੁ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਦਏ ਖਪਾਇ ॥ ਤੀਸਰ ਜੋ ਜੀਵਤ ਬਚਯੋ ਸੋ ਤਿਹ ਪਹੁਚਯੋ ਆਇ ॥੨੩੭੪॥
Krishnaa kop jab shatr(u) dvai ran mai dae khapaae|| Teesar jo jeevat bachyo so tih pahuchyo aae||2374||
When Krishna, in his ire, killed two enemies in the fighting and the third one who survived, he also came in the battlefield.​

All the Hindu devas are part of the oneness of the One. But there is something beyond them. Still we can't discount or disrespect. We don't worship the devas, we go direct to the source. But we show respect to someone who worships the devas. This entire thread title about Hindu legends and Hindu mythology is really disrespectful to Hindu religion and I don't think reflects the attitude of Gurbani.


Gurbani says:

ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾਂ ਸੁਝੀਓਸੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
chaarae kunddaan sujheeous man mehi sabadh paravaan ||
You understand the four corners of the universe; in your mind, the Word of the Shabad is approved and supreme.

ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥
aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||
You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace.

ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥
aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||
You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.​

And further down it says:

ਧੰਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰਿਆ ਤਿਨੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
dhhann dhhann raamadhaas gur jin siriaa thinai savaariaa ||
Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas; He who created You, has also exalted You.

ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਕਰਾਮਾਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੈ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥
pooree hoee karaamaath aap sirajanehaarai dhhaariaa ||
Perfect is Your miracle; the Creator Lord Himself has installed You on the throne.

ਸਿਖੀ ਅਤੈ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਿਆ ॥
sikhee athai sangathee paarabreham kar namasakaariaa ||
The Sikhs and all the Congregation recognize You as the Supreme Lord God, and bow down to You.
~SGGS Ji p. 968​

And in another place it says:

ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥
kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||3||
KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥
gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 1389​

What does the Gurbani mean when it describes Guruji as an avatar?

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji p. 2​

ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਸਿਧ ਬੁਧ ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕੋਟਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸਭਿ ਚਾਹਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤੇਰੋ ਨਾਉ ॥
chouraaseeh sidhh budhh thaethees kott mun jan sabh chaahehi har jeeo thaero naao ||
The eighty-four Siddhas, the spiritual masters, the Buddhas, the three hundred thirty million gods and the silent sages, all long for Your Name, O Dear Lord.

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਲਿਲਾਟਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਭਾਉ ॥੧॥
gur prasaadh ko viralaa paavai jin ko lilaatt likhiaa dhhur bhaao ||1||
By Guru's Grace, a rare few obtain it; upon their foreheads, the pre-ordained destiny of loving devotion is written. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 669​

Now Gurbani clearly shows the Vaheguru is beyond all the Hindu devas and all the Buddhas and spiritual Masters. But I can't find the place where it says they are unreal or fake gods who don't exist who are like mythology or mere legends. I can't find the place where it says there are not 330 million gods. If Krishna says in Bhagavad-Gita that He is God, this place is likely talking from God-consciousness. Are we to presume the manifestation of God for the age, avatar, was not God? Then how did Krishna's name become associated with the God? Gurbani also calls Guruji an avatar. If Krishna bowed at the feet of Guruji, then He is Guruji's friend.

Why was Guruji's name Har Krishan? Isn't it because that is a name of God? And if it is a name of God, doesn't that tell us something? If the Name of God is Ram, or Har Krishan, or Vishnu, or Gobind, doesn't that tell us something? And if we took this definition of the One God's name to Islamic countries, would they tolerate it? Would they tolerate our convoluted explanation that the name of God is based on a mythology? Or just maybe we aren't fully understanding the pantheistic Oneness of our Ik Oangkar. Unlike Hinduism, Gurbani puts all Hindu devas at the feet of the One. Yet, unlike Islam, Gurbani puts all 330 million and everything else besides into the One.

"All the world is but the Beloved's Holy Face." ~Mirza Ghalib

ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥
kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa ||
Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.

ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa ||
The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.

ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ਸਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੭॥
poorai sathigur aap dhikhaaeiaa sach naam nisathaaraa ||7||
The Perfect True Guru Himself has made it clear, that emancipation comes through the True Name. ||7||

ਸਾ ਕਾਇਆ ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵੈ ਸਚੈ ਆਪਿ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥
saa kaaeiaa jo sathigur saevai sachai aap savaaree ||
That body, which serves the True Guru, is embellished by the True Lord Himself.
~SGGS Ji p. 754​

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||

ਕਾਇਆ ਸੋਧਿ ਤਰੈ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਆਤਮ ਤਤੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
kaaeiaa sodhh tharai bhav saagar aatham thath veechaaree ||13||
One who purifies his body, crosses over the terrifying world-ocean; he contemplates the essence of his own soul. ||13||

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਰਵਿਆ ਗੁਣਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੪॥
gur saevaa thae sadhaa sukh paaeiaa anthar sabadh raviaa gunakaaree ||14||
Serving the Guru, he finds everlasting peace; deep within, the Shabad permeates him, coloring him with virtue. ||14||
~SGGS Ji p. 908​

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390​

What does this shabad mean in the context of other tuks of Gurbani where it says Guruji is an avatar? What could it mean in the context of Bhagavad-Gita where Bhagavan Krishna declares he is God and Gurbani is recognizing him as an avatar for Dwaapur Yuga?

ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥
kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||3||
KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥
gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 1389​

 

[Sikh80]

Harjas ji.,

As a lesson No.1:
I am convinced now that Guru nanak dev ji is an Avtaar like krishna.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

I think it is clear the Gurbani is saying the God has manifested in different forms throughout the ages. But it is equally clear the previous forms of religion were not complete and are not sufficient in this age. For this age God manifested as Guru Nanak. Without the Naam, no one will be liberated. But when we are talking of physicality, for example, then Guru in all manifestations were only physical bodies subject to decay. But the Jyot of Guru who is the same in all forms, including Shabad Guru Ji, is merged with the Infinite Lord and has grasped both the nirgun and sargun. This is something previous avatars were not able to do which is why Gurbani says they bow at His feet. But it is not correct to think avatars of previous ages, or scriptures of other religions don't also have a manifestation of the God. Sikhism does not have a concept of One God which is limiting in that way as to be "jealous" of other gods, or accuse lesser devas of being fake gods which Sikhs can't tolerate because they serve only the One. That is an Abrahamic concept. And the miracle of Gurbani is that what is being described here actually is now being proven in the fields of theoretical physics. There are infinities of unfolding and infinities enfolded. Imagine Guruji has written about something like that so many hundreds of years ago! It is proof that Gurbani brought the nirgun into this dimension for our Liberation.

ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਹਰੀਆ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਧਰੀਆ ਅਨਿਕ ਕੋਠਰੀਆ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿਨ ਕਰੀਆ ॥
niragun hareeaa saragun dhhareeaa anik kothareeaa bhinn bhinn bhinn bhin kareeaa ||
The Lord is absolute and unmanifest; He has assumed the most sublime manifestation. He has fashioned countless body chambers of many, varied, different, myriad forms.
~SGGS Ji p. 746​

ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥੨੯॥
aadh aneel anaadh anaahath jug jug eaeko vaes ||29||
The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||29||

ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
eaekaa maaee jugath viaaee thin chaelae paravaan ||
The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities.

ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥
eik sansaaree eik bhanddaaree eik laaeae dheebaan ||
One, the Creator of the World; One, the Sustainer; and One, the Destroyer.

ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਜਿਵ ਹੋਵੈ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ ॥
jiv this bhaavai thivai chalaavai jiv hovai furamaan ||
He makes things happen according to the Pleasure of His Will. Such is His Celestial Order.
~SGGS Ji p. 7​

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਸਿਰਿ ਛਤ੍ਰ ॥
kee kott dhaev dhaanav eindhr sir shhathr ||
Many millions are the demi-gods, demons and Indras, under their regal canopies.

ਸਗਲ ਸਮਗ੍ਰੀ ਅਪਨੈ ਸੂਤਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥
sagal samagree apanai sooth dhhaarai ||
He has strung the entire creation upon His thread.
~SGGS Ji p. 276​

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਅਰੁ ਖੰਡ ॥
kee kott khaanee ar khandd ||
Many millions are the fields of creation and the galaxies.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਕਾਸ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ॥
kee kott akaas brehamandd ||
Many millions are the etheric skies and the solar systems.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਹੋਏ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥
kee kott hoeae avathaar ||
Many millions are the divine incarnations.

ਕਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥
kee jugath keeno bisathhaar ||
In so many ways, He has unfolded Himself.

ਕਈ ਬਾਰ ਪਸਰਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰ ॥
kee baar pasariou paasaar ||
So many times, He has expanded His expansion.

ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕੁ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥
sadhaa sadhaa eik eaekankaar ||
Forever and ever, He is the One, the One Universal Creator.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਤਿ ॥
kee kott keenae bahu bhaath ||
Many millions are created in various forms.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਹੋਏ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਤਿ ॥
prabh thae hoeae prabh maahi samaath ||
From God they emanate, and into God they merge once again.

ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
thaa kaa anth n jaanai koe ||
His limits are not known to anyone.

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੭॥
aapae aap naanak prabh soe ||7||
Of Himself, and by Himself, O Nanak, God exists. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 276​

ਏਤੁ ਰਾਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੜੀਆ ਚੜੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਇਕੀਸ ॥
eaeth raahi path pavarreeaa charreeai hoe eikees ||
Along this path to our Husband Lord, we climb the steps of the ladder, and come to merge with Him.

ਸੁਣਿ ਗਲਾ ਆਕਾਸ ਕੀ ਕੀਟਾ ਆਈ ਰੀਸ ॥
sun galaa aakaas kee keettaa aaee rees ||
Hearing of the etheric realms, even worms long to come back home.
~SGGS Ji p. 7​

ਜਤ ਜਤ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਤ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
jath jath jaaeeai thath dhrisattaaeae ||1|| rehaao ||
Wherever I go, there I see Him. ||1||Pause||

ਅਨਿਕ ਰੰਗ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਇਕ ਰੰਗਾ ॥
anik rang niragun eik rangaa ||
He manifests many forms, while still unmanifest and absolute, and yet He has One Form.

ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
aapae jal aap hee tharangaa ||2||
He Himself is the water, and He Himself is the waves. ||2||

ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੇਵਾ ॥
aap hee mandhar aapehi saevaa ||
He Himself is the temple, and He Himself is selfless service.

ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪੂਜਾਰੀ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੩॥
aap hee poojaaree aap hee dhaevaa ||3||
He Himself is the worshipper, and He Himself is the idol. ||3||

ਆਪਹਿ ਜੋਗ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥
aapehi jog aap hee jugathaa ||
He Himself is the Yoga; He Himself is the Way.
~SGGS Ji p. 803​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

These concepts are difficult to grasp, but Gurbani has grasped them. God is One unknown and beyond comprehension and yet pervading in all that is. Gurbani says clearly the One God has manifest Himself in millions of avatars. So why would we disrespect the Lord Krishna? Gurbani says he was avatar for dwapara yug. He manifested God to the people. Bhagavad-Gita is a holy book. It was a revelation of the One God. But now we have Gurbani. There is no disrespect at all of Hinduism in Gurbani.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਹੋਏ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥
kee kott hoeae avathaar ||
Many millions are the divine incarnations.​

 

[pk70]

Quote”All the Hindu devas are part of the oneness of the One. But there is something beyond them. Still we can't discount or disrespect. We don't worship the devas, we go direct to the source. But we show respect to someone who worships the devas. This entire thread title about Hindu legends and Hindu mythology is really disrespectful to Hindu religion and I don't think reflects the attitude of Gurbani.
Respected Bhain ji, how you can conclude that? Look at the following Guru Bachan which openly talks about Hindu Dharm, calling Vedas religion just act of trade. Is it insult to Hinduism? This thread has a meaning, why Guru ji
[/FONT] gives reference and what he asks us to learn from it. Hinduism and its devtas are merely used for reference, all references you are giving from Gurbani do not go beyond the fact of reference. All these type of postings are not helpful for simple minded people, mind it, Gurbani is not only for high class intellectuals, you are just confusing with uncalled for posts, pictures. Then you use Gurbani at your side especially when it doesnt support you. it is amzing after saying that, you talk about Khande pahul, Yoga, etc. It is all mess, nothing is taken as it should be to find out the truth. Why would we disrespect Hindus? In discussion, one needs references. Just because of all you stating, some Hindus call our religion off shoot of Hinduism. Now read what Guru talks about your favorit Vedas
mÚ 1 ] bydu pukwry puMnu pwpu, surg nrk kw bIau ] jo bIjY so augvY, KWdw jwxY jIau ] igAwnu slwhy vfw kir, sco scw nwau ] scu bIjY, scu augvY, drgh pweIAY Qwau ] bydu vpwrI, igAwnu rwis, krmI plY hoie ] nwnk rwsI bwhrw lid n cilAw koie ]2] (pMnw 1243) FIRST MEHL: The Vedas proclaim that vice and virtue are the seeds of heaven and hell. Whatever is planted, shall grow. The soul eats the fruits of its actions, and understands. Whoever praises spiritual wisdom as great,8( translator just fails to state that Gyan is referred to Guru Nanak ' Views) becomes truthful in the True Name. When Truth is planted, Truth grows.( It is about Gurbani Wisdom, translation has flaws but Ok.)
In the Court of the Lord, you shall find your place of honor. The Vedas are only merchants; spiritual wisdom is the capital; by His Grace, it is received. O Nanak, without capital, no one has ever departed with profit. ( This is Guru Nanak Panth, contrary to Hinduism, only NamSimran is wisdom, only Guru Nanak's views are wisdom. Here Second Mehal directly states that Vedas teach not wisdom but trade like Dharm)
How the thread context of discussion is insult to Hindus? Prove it in context of above Guru Bachan.:roll:
[/FONT]

 

[Astroboy]

ਸੰਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥੧॥
संत की निंदा नानका बहुरि बहुरि अवतार ॥१॥
Sanṯ kī ninḏā nānkā bahur bahur avṯār. ||1||
One who slanders the Saints, O Nanak, shall be reincarnated over and over again. ||1||
ਮਃ 5 - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Hinduism and its devtas are merely used for reference, all references you are giving from Gurbani do not go beyond the fact of reference. All these type of postings are not helpful for simple minded people, mind it, Gurbani is not only for high class intellectuals, you are just confusing with uncalled for posts, pictures. Then you use Gurbani at your side especially when it doesnt support you. it is amzing after saying that, you talk about Khande pahul, Yoga, etc. It is all mess, nothing is taken as it should be to find out the truth.

Are you saying that I'm a high class intellectual posting "uncalled for posts and pictures?"

Can there even be a discussion forum where a post with information is "uncalled for?" And everything I'm posting is all a mess?

"Now read what Guru talks about your favorit Vedas"
Now wouldn't the above be an uncalled for statement? Why are the Vedas my "favorite? And why citing Gurbani which shows the failure of Vedas in Kalyug proves something against what I said, which is we as Sikhs above all should have respect for other religious paths, but most especially Hinduism since we share so many common things. Didn't Guru sacrifice His life and endure torture to save people of Hindu religion?

Now someone was on here posting, and I read what seemed to be mis-statements about Sikh religion regarding how we deal with other Gods of other religions.

Interestingly, Gurbani explains why we are not Hindus, yet respect for reality of Hindu devas is there. Are we to assume Krishna is a fake god because in Bhagavad-Gita he declares he is God? How can we reconcile this with Gurbani which clearly states Krishna was an avatar for certain age?

Because Guru Sahib is correcting errors of all religions and pointing out failures of spiritual path, and even saying Hindu devas fell into Maya, does this mean we can speak of Hindu devas as mythology and legend? Mythology and legend means fake, not existing. Yet Gurbani clearly states all 330 million devas exist. So why have a thread talking down about Hindu references in Gurbani? How does this uplift anyone's spiritual jeevan? And we have already had someone from Hindu faith making replies here. I don't think this sheds light on Gurbani or is fair to Hindu religion. Gurbani nowhere says Hindu's have fake gods or faith is worthless and mythological. Why do you think anything in Gurbani is mythological?

Instead of attacking my personal qualities, whether I am a mess or posts are uncalled for and unwelcome, why not answer the question as to why Gurbani calls Krishna an avatar of Dwapara Yuga. And if Gurbani recognizes Krishna as an avatar, why would anyone object to a Hindu who posts here saying it's unacceptable for Sikhs to read Bhagavad-Gita because Krishna has God-consciousness in the scripture?

That was the sole purpose of my "uncalled for post."

"This is Guru Nanak Panth, contrary to Hinduism, only NamSimran is wisdom, only Guru Nanak's views are wisdom. Here Second Mehal directly states that Vedas teach not wisdom but trade like Dharm) How the thread context of discussion is insult to Hindus? Prove it in context of above Guru Bachan."

Guru Nanak's path is only contrary to evil within ourselves, not to other religious paths. Gurbani say's Guru is the wisdom of the Vedas. Gurbani says Naam is the boat for Kalyug and that Guruji is the avatar of Kalyug. It doesn't say anywhere in Shabad Guru that all references to Hinduism are a contrivance or historical accident. Gurbani doesn't say Guruji is telling us made up stories and legends to teach some spiritual lesson.

If the post was titled, "Sikh legends" and implied all the negativity toward Sikhism which you have claimed about Hinduism, would you find it insulting to Sikhs? Why don't you prove that honey is always better to woo the bees with than criticizing the short-comings of another religion.

 

[Sikh80]

Kindly enlighten us as to what 'Rehat for sikhs' say about Vedas.The thing should be clarified.I had requested this earlier as well.

We all follow a Panth to guide us in the matters that are fairly well settled in sikhism irrespective of individuals' preferences.Pk70 ji has stated things very clearly. I have also stated many things that are totally in line with his thinking.

However, kindly guide us in the matter of Rehat of sikhs.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Kindly enlighten us as to what 'Rehat for sikhs' say about Vedas.The thing should be clarified.I had requested this earlier as well.

We all follow a Panth to guide us in the matters that are fairly well settled in sikhism irrespective of individuals' preferences.Pk70 ji has stated things very clearly. I have also stated many things that are totally in line with his thinking.

However, kindly guide us in the matter of Rehat of sikhs.

Rehat Maryada, Section Four
Chapter 10, Article 16: Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets

A Sikh's living, livelihood, thinking and conduct should be in accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are:

(a) Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.

(b) Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' Word alone are saviors and holy objects of veneration (the Gurus themselves are not to be worshiped).

(c) The ten Gurus should be regarded as the effulgence of one light and one single entity.

Not owning up or regarding as hallowed any place other than the Guru’s place - such, for instance, as sacred spots or places of pilgrimage of other faiths.

Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins' holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the Gayatri (Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun), the Gita, the Quran, the Bible, etc. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is admissible.

(e) The Khalsa should maintain its distinctiveness among the professors of different religions of the world, but should not hurt the sentiment of any person professing another religion. Rehat Maryada, Section Four | Sikhism - Sikh Religion

Section Four
Chapter X
Living in Consonance with Gurus' Tenets
Article XVI

A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Gurus' tenets. The Guru's tenets are:
(Continued from last week)

(e) The Khalsa should maintain its distinctiveness among the professors of different religions of the world, but should not hurt the sentiment of any person professing another religion.

ਜਬ ਲਗ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਰਹੇ ਨਿਆਰਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਲਗ ਤੇਜ ਦੀਉ ਮੈਂ ਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਜਬ ਇਹ ਗਹੈ ਬਿਪਰਨ ਕੀ ਰੀਤ ॥ ਮੈਂ ਨ ਕਰੋਂ ਇਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ॥
"So long as the Khalsa remains distinct, I will assist them with support and protection. But if they (the Khalsa) should take on a non-Sikh way of life, then I shall have no confidence and faith in them." (Sarbloh Granth, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

Recognizing that Waheguru abides in everyone and that we are all the children of the one Creator Lord, a Gurmukh does not intentionally hurt the sentiments of anyone who professes another belief system or religion. Gurbani states that the highest religion in the world is not Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any other religion. Guru Ji states what is the best religion as:

ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮ ਮਹਿ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟ ਧਰਮੁ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਕਰਮੁ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਊਤਮ ਕਿਰਿਆ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਲੁ ਹਿਰਿਆ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਉਦਮ ਮਹਿ ਉਦਮੁ ਭਲਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਜੀਅ ਸਦਾ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਬਾਨੀ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਜਸੁ ਸੁਨਿ ਰਸਨ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਥਾਨ ਤੇ ਓਹੁ ਊਤਮ ਥਾਨੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ॥8॥3॥
"Of all religions, the best religion is to chant the Name of the Lord and maintain pure conduct. Of all religious rituals, the most sublime ritual is to erase the filth of the dirty mind in the company of the Holy. Of all efforts, the best effort is to chant the Name of the Lord in the heart, forever. Of all speech, the most ambrosial speech is to hear the Lord's Praise and chant it with the tongue. Of all places, the most sublime place, O Nanak, is that heart in which the Name of the Lord abides. ||8||3||" (Ang 266, SGGS)

Guru Arjan Sahib Ji, the fifth Guru, gives a description of the universal Dharma that is the universal religion and spiritual way of life. Gurmat (the Gurus' teachings) tells us that if one is a Muslim, then one should be a good and true Muslim. If one is a Hindu then one should be a good and true Hindu; and so on. However, as Sikhs we overlook the deeper meaning of this statement and instead use it to justify that idol worship is good for a Hindu and circumcision is good for a Muslim because it is a part of their belief system. However, if we read Gurbani we realize that Guru Ji has given us a description and expectation of who and what conduct constitues that of a good and true Hindu, and a good and true Muslim:

ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮ ਮਹਿ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟ ਧਰਮੁ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਕਰਮੁ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਊਤਮ ਕਿਰਿਆ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਲੁ ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ 1 ॥ ਮਿਹਰ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਦਕੁ ਮੁਸਲਾ ਹਕੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ ਸਰਮ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਰੋਜਾ ਹੋਹੁ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ॥ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਬਾ ਸਚੁ ਪੀਰੁ ਕਲਮਾ ਕਰਮ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥ ਤਸਬੀ ਸਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਸੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਖੈ ਲਾਜ ॥1॥
"Salok, First Mehl: Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran. Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim. Let good conduct be your Kaaba, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant. Let your rosary be, that which is pleasing to His Will. O Nanak, Waheguru shall preserve your Honor. ||1||" (Ang 140, SGGS)
Panthic Weekly: Understanding the Sikh Rehat Maryada

Where did I say we should abandon Sikhism and follow Hindu religion and worship Hindu devas or be students of Hindu scriptures? Did I say the Vedas are my "favorite scripture" or was this said about me as a put down? I said we should show respect for other religions and other religious scriptures because Gurbani says God has manifested in those devas in past ages. We don't gain anything to call devas of other religions false or mythological.

I said show respect to Hindu religion and Hindu devas and Hindu scriptures because there are many beautiful things there that Hindu's believe in. Do you think Sikh religion is so arrogant to be criticizing other religious paths as false? Sikhism is the path for a Sikh. Did I ever say otherwise? But why the negativity to Hindu religion? If Guru Sahib corrected faults with the religions, devas and teachings of previous yugs then let's look at that for the specific purpose of understanding, not to make a thread which hurts sentiments of people of Hindu faith. Or worse, to be criticizing Gurbani as legend and mythology because it has references to concepts which originated from Hindu religion? What kind of spirituality is this? I find beauty in reading Shakespeare. Does this make it my favorite scripture now? Does this mean I'm telling everyone to convert to Shakespearean religion or violating Sikh Rehat Maryada? Yet you have not explained the tuks of Gurbani which I shared to support my statements that we should be respectful of other religions, only to accuse that I'm a mess and nothing in the Gurbani is saying what it seems to say.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji p. 2​

ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥੨੯॥
aadh aneel anaadh anaahath jug jug eaeko vaes ||29||
The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||29||

ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
eaekaa maaee jugath viaaee thin chaelae paravaan ||
The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities.

ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥
eik sansaaree eik bhanddaaree eik laaeae dheebaan ||
One, the Creator of the World; One, the Sustainer; and One, the Destroyer.
~SGGS Ji p. 7​

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹਨਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
hindhoo saalaahee saalaahan dharasan roop apaar ||
The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy Lord; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, His form is incomparable.
~SGGS Ji p. 465​

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਭੋਗਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਰਸੀਆ ਭੋਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae sabh ghatt bhogadhaa maerae govindhaa aapae raseeaa bhogee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself enjoys every heart, O my Lord of the Universe; He Himself is the Ravisher and the Enjoyer.
~SGGS Ji p. 174​

ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਨ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਚਰਾਵਤ ਗਾਊ ਰੇ ॥
bindhraaban man haran manohar kirasan charaavath gaaoo rae ||
In Brindaaban, where Krishna grazes his cows, he entices and fascinates my mind.

ਜਾ ਕਾ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਤੁਹੀ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਨਾਊ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੨॥੧੫॥੬੬॥
jaa kaa thaakur thuhee saaringadhhar mohi kabeeraa naaoo rae ||2||2||15||66||
You are my Lord Master, the Archer of the Universe; my name is Kabeer. ||2||2||15||66||~SGGS Ji p. 338​

ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਧੁ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਲੁ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
dheen dhaeiaal gur saadhh milaaeiaa mil sathigur mal lehi jaae jeeo ||
The Lord, Compassionate to the poor, led them to meet the Holy Guru. Meeting the True Guru, their filth is washed away.

ਜੁਗੁ ਦੁਆਪੁਰੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
jug dhuaapur aaeiaa bharam bharamaaeiaa har gopee kaanha oupaae jeeo ||3||
The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and the people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 445​

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[Sikh80]

Also Gurbani doesn't invalidate the Vedas but says Gurbani is the sum total of the Vedas.
~Bhul chak maaf

It is here that you stated that Bani is a function of Vedas or vice versa [of this i am not sure]. Gurbani is based on independent experience of Brahmgyanis',the 10 Gurus.

Panth rejects this outlook as well and I quote from the part of rehat that you have posted.

Quoted from your post
"Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins' holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the Gayatri (Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun), the Gita, the Quran, the Bible, etc. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is admissible.
Unquote

Sikhs are also advised to not to believe in Vedas and besides other Gita. Yes, they may read.It should and must have some meaning and reasons. Had Bani being the sum total of Vedas we should have been told so by someone either by Guru Sahibs or the Panth.

Both of your statements that appeared to be objectionable are still objectionable.[i.e about bani being the sum total of vedas or Krishna's statement that HE was God.]

Can you ,with cent percent confidence, state that anyone who states in Gita as I am the God can be the same person who came thru. the route of womb.?

Gurbani rejects this claim and bani also states to the effect that:

"Burnt be the tongue that states that HE is born."

Krishna may be devas but not God as he states himself to be so in Gita.[ It is for this reason that I cannot consume if someone says that I am god and meditate upon me as stated in Gita and to this statement you vehemently objected to. I still maintain my stand and hope entire sikh community shall have a similar outlook. ]

Bani recognizes krishna who was sent by the God ,as you said, as an Avtaar and not anyone who states that HE is GOD.

it is very humbly requested that:
1.Kindly posts half a page/page post or so ,it is likely to be read in full and avoid quoting bani on mass scale.
2.Pl. Quote the essence that you want to say.


E&OE.