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Hair And General Sikh Philosophy Study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singh
This sentence is saying that once you are attuned/one/in love with the Lord then the shabad by Bhagat Kabeer ji will be you and you will be it.

This sentence is saying when you are fully attuned/one/ in love with the Lord meaning no duality or alienation is in you then this shabad becomes you. The shabad is talking about total love for the Lord when duality does not exist in the person not about keeping hair or cutting hair. Then the hair line that everyone likes to show as, ‘look hair we can keep it long or shave it don’t matter.’ But what they don’t realize is, are we first completely attuned to/ one/ in love with the Lord? Also majority of the readers will misinterpret the meaning of love here. This is not the kind of love that last one second or one day or a month or a year or a couple years toward God. It’s the kind of absolute love that does not change, get weaker or stronger, stays constant no matter what the situation is. Then if you look back to the first time I explained this I gave an example of the same absolute love that existed in Guru Arjan Dev ji when he was placed on that hot plate and hot sand was poured over Guru jis body. He did not waiver did not make a sound/show a weakness because he was completely attuned/ one/in love with the Lord. Now ask yourself do I have this absolute love toward the Lord? If yes then the shabad by Bhagat Kabeer ji that you presented at the beginning of the discussion will define you; the person would be the walking definition of the shabad/ will be living the shabad. I hope this clears things up.
 

BhagatSingh

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This sentence is saying when you are fully attuned/one/ in love with the Lord meaning no duality or alienation is in you then this shabad becomes you. The shabad is talking about total love for the Lord when duality does not exist in the person not about keeping hair or cutting hair. Then the hair line that everyone likes to show as, ‘look hair we can keep it long or shave it don’t matter.’ But what they don’t realize is, are we first completely attuned to/ one/ in love with the Lord?
Let us clarify what does love for God and what does becoming one for god actually mean!
Let's use quotes from SGGS to define this.



Also majority of the readers will misinterpret the meaning of love here. This is not the kind of love that last one second or one day or a month or a year or a couple years toward God. It’s the kind of absolute love that does not change, get weaker or stronger, stays constant no matter what the situation is. Then if you look back to the first time I explained this I gave an example of the same absolute love that existed in Guru Arjan Dev ji when he was placed on that hot plate and hot sand was poured over Guru jis body. He did not waiver did not make a sound/show a weakness because he was completely attuned/ one/in love with the Lord. Now ask yourself do I have this absolute love toward the Lord? If yes then the shabad by Bhagat Kabeer ji that you presented at the beginning of the discussion will define you; the person would be the walking definition of the shabad/ will be living the shabad. I hope this clears things up.
Ok so if you have love for God in your heart you can have long hair or shave it bald. Like Guru Arjan Dev ji did not worry about what happened to his physical body, we should not either!
 
Ok so if you have love for God in your heart you can have long hair or shave it bald.

Define love here for me so then I know what kind of love you are talking about.

Like Guru Arjan Dev ji did not worry about what happened to his physical body, we should not either!

When Guru Arjan Dev ji was placed on the hot plate it was not because he did not care about what happened to his body it was because he refused to take up Islam. And because he did not take up Islam his body was tortured.
 

BhagatSingh

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When Guru Arjan Dev ji was placed on the hot plate it was not because he did not care about what happened to his body it was because he refused to take up Islam. And because he did not take up Islam his body was tortured.
Then why did you give that as an example of love for god?:}:):
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Singh
When Guru Arjan Dev ji was placed on the hot plate it was not because he did not care about what happened to his body it was because he refused to take up Islam. And because he did not take up Islam his body was tortured.

Then why did you give that as an example of love for god?:}:):

I have already explained this because it also showed the devotion and Love he had for the Lord. Guru ji at the time showed us to love the Lord with infinite love and not to give up Sikhism.
 

pk70

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ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਗਏ ਮਸਕਤਿ ਘਾਲਿ ॥( SGGS 8) M-2

Jinī nām ḏẖi*ā*i*ā ga*ė maskaṯ gẖāl.
Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows -
 
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BhagatSingh

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ਮੂੰਡੁ ਮੁਡਾਇ ਜਟਾ ਸਿਖ ਬਾਧੀ ਮੋਨਿ ਰਹੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ
मूंडु मुडाइ जटा सिख बाधी मोनि रहै अभिमाना ॥
Mūnd mudā*ė jatā sikẖ bāḏẖī mon rahai abẖimānā.
Some shave their heads, some keep their hair in matted tangles; some keep it in braids, while some keep silent, filled with egotistical pride.
ਮਨੂਆ ਡੋਲੈ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਧਾਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਰਤ ਆਤਮ ਗਿਆਨਾ
मनूआ डोलै दह दिस धावै बिनु रत आतम गिआना ॥
Manū*ā dolai ḏah ḏis ḏẖāvai bin raṯ āṯam gi*ānā.
Their minds waver and wander in ten directions, without loving devotion and enlightenment of the soul.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ
अम्रितु छोडि महा बिखु पीवै माइआ का देवाना ॥
Amriṯ cẖẖod mahā bikẖ pīvai mā*i*ā kā ḏėvānā.
They abandon the Ambrosial Nectar, and drink the deadly poison, driven mad by Maya.
ਕਿਰਤੁ ਮਿਟਈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੂਝੈ ਪਸੂਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥੫॥
किरतु न मिटई हुकमु न बूझै पसूआ माहि समाना ॥५॥
Kiraṯ na mit*ī hukam na būjẖai pasū*ā māhi samānā. ||5||
Past actions cannot be erased; without understanding the Hukam of the Lord's Command, they become beasts. ||5||


page 1013
 
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ਮੂੰਡੁ ਮੁਡਾਇ ਜਟਾ ਸਿਖ ਬਾਧੀ ਮੋਨਿ ਰਹੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ
मूंडु मुडाइ जटा सिख बाधी मोनि रहै अभिमाना ॥
Mūnd mudā*ė jatā sikẖ bāḏẖī mon rahai abẖimānā.
Some shave their heads, some keep their hair in matted tangles; some keep it in braids, while some keep silent, filled with egotistical pride.
ਮਨੂਆ ਡੋਲੈ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਧਾਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਰਤ ਆਤਮ ਗਿਆਨਾ
मनूआ डोलै दह दिस धावै बिनु रत आतम गिआना ॥
Manū*ā dolai ḏah ḏis ḏẖāvai bin raṯ āṯam gi*ānā.
Their minds waver and wander in ten directions, without loving devotion and enlightenment of the soul.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ
अम्रितु छोडि महा बिखु पीवै माइआ का देवाना ॥
Amriṯ cẖẖod mahā bikẖ pīvai mā*i*ā kā ḏėvānā.
They abandon the Ambrosial Nectar, and drink the deadly poison, driven mad by Maya.
ਕਿਰਤੁ ਮਿਟਈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੂਝੈ ਪਸੂਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥੫॥
किरतु न मिटई हुकमु न बूझै पसूआ माहि समाना ॥५॥
Kiraṯ na mit*ī hukam na būjẖai pasū*ā māhi samānā. ||5||
Past actions cannot be erased; without understanding the Hukam of the Lord's Command, they become beasts. ||5||


page 1013

Bhagat Singh ji, These shabads are speaking about duality in a person and how the ego takes over of the person and the person does not follow the Guru instead he follows himself. Here is the shabad again with a couple of shabads before it and after it that makes it clearly what Guru ji is saying.

MARU, FIFTH MEHL: The self-willed manmukh, in a fit of passion, abandons his
home, and is ruined; then, he spies on the homes of others. He neglects his household duties, and does not meet with the
True Guru; he is caught in the whirlpool of evil-mindedness. Wandering in foreign lands and reading scriptures, he grows
weary, and his thirsty desires only increase. His perishable body does not remember the Word of the Shabad; like a beast, he
fills his belly. || 1 || O Baba, this is the way of life of the Sannyaasi, the renunciate. Through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad,
he is to enshrine love for the One Lord. Imbued with Your Name, Lord, he remains satisfied and fulfilled. || 1 || Pause || He
dyes his robes with saffron dye, and wearing these robes, he goes out begging. Tearing his robes, he makes a patched coat,
and puts the money in his wallet. From house to house he goes begging, and tries to teach the world; but his mind is blind,
and so he loses his honor. He is deluded by doubt, and does not remember the Word of the Shabad.
He loses his life in the gamble. || 2 || Without the Guru, the fire within is not quenched; and outside, the fire still burns.
Without serving the Guru, there is no devotional worship. How can anyone, by himself, know the Lord? Slandering others, one
lives in hell; within him is hazy darkness. Wandering to the eixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, he is ruined. How can the
filth of sin be washed away? || 3 || He sifts through the dust, and applies ashes to his body, but he is searching for the path
of Maya.s wealth. Inwardly and outwardly, he does not know the One Lord; if someone tells him the Truth, he grows angry. He
reads the scriptures, but tells lies; such is the intellect of one who has no guru. Without chanting the Naam, how can he find
peace? Without the Name, how can he look good? || 4 || Some shave their heads, some keep their hair in matted tangles;
some keep it in braids, while some keep silent, filled with egotistical pride. Their minds waver and wander in ten directions,
without loving devotion and enlightenment of the soul. They abandon the Ambrosial Nectar, and drink the deadly poison,
driven mad by Maya. Past actions cannot be erased; without understanding the Hukam of the Lord.s Command, they become
beasts. || 5 || With bowl in hand, wearing his patched coat, great desires well up in his mind. Abandoning his own wife, he is
engrossed in sexual desire; his thoughts are on the wives of others. He teaches and preaches, but does not contemplate the
Shabad; he is bought and sold on the street. With poison within, he pretends to be free of doubt; he is ruined and humiliated
by the Messenger of Death. || 6 || He alone is a Sannyaasi, who serves the True Guru, and removes his self-conceit from
within. He does not ask for clothes or food; without asking, he accepts whatever he receives. He does not speak empty words;
he gathers in the wealth of tolerance, and burns away his anger with the Naam. Blessed is such a householder, Sannyaasi and
Yogi, who focuses his consciousness on the Lord.s feet. || 7 || Amidst hope, the Sannyaasi remains unmoved by hope; he
remains lovingly focused on the One Lord. He drinks in the sublime essence of the Lord, and so finds peace and tranquility; in
the home of his own being, he remains absorbed in the deep trance of meditation. His mind does not waver; as Gurmukh, he
understands. He restrains it from wandering out. Following the Guru.s Teachings, he searches the home of his body, and
obtains the wealth of the Naam. || 8 || ang 1013
 
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BhagatSingh

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Bhagat Singh ji, These shabads are speaking about duality in a person and how the ego takes over of the person and the person does not follow the Guru instead he follows himself. Here is the shabad again with a couple of shabads before it and after it that makes it clearly what Guru ji is saying.
haha, I thought I'd throw that shabad out there and see what people think. Its clear that you understand the shabad's message. But notice how the guru has put different hairstyles all into under one label. He has not differentiated between long hair and short hair.
:whisling:
 

BhagatSingh

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As per your PM, let's analyze what Kabir has to say, so we are clear on his message.
I looked back and saw that you had not replied to previous analysis so here it is.
ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ
कबीर प्रीति इक सिउ कीए आन दुबिधा जाइ ॥
Kabīr parīṯ ik si*o kī*ė ān ḏubiḏẖā jā*ė.
Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥
[Kabeer says when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
Then Kabeer goes on to give an example of such duality and alienation.]

भावै लांबे केस करु भावै घररि मुडाइ ॥२५॥
Bẖāvai lāʼnbė kės kar bẖāvai gẖarar mudā*ė. ||25||
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||

And there you go, its simple, if you are in love with god, the duality and alienation on your mind such as keeping long hair or short hair, depart.
Somone else may come along as say it differently but that is the meaning.

[You wanted to look at shabads before and after, so here they are.]

Before that:
कबीर ता सिउ प्रीति करि जा को ठाकुरु रामु ॥
Kabīr ṯā si*o parīṯ kar jā ko ṯẖākur rām.
Kabeer, be in love with only that one, whose Master is the Lord.ਪੰਡਿਤ ਰਾਜੇ ਭੂਪਤੀ ਆਵਹਿ ਕਉਨੇ ਕਾਮ ॥੨੪॥
पंडित राजे भूपती आवहि कउने काम ॥२४॥
Pandiṯ rājė bẖūpṯī āvahi ka*unė kām. ||24||
The Pandits, the religious scholars, kings and landlords - what good is love for them? ||24||


After that:

ਕਬੀਰ ਜਗੁ ਕਾਜਲ ਕੀ ਕੋਠਰੀ ਅੰਧ ਪਰੇ ਤਿਸ ਮਾਹਿ
कबीर जगु काजल की कोठरी अंध परे तिस माहि ॥
Kabīr jag kājal kī koṯẖrī anḏẖ parė ṯis māhi.
Kabeer, the world is a room filled with black soot; the blind fall into its trap.
ਹਉ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਪੈਸਿ ਜੁ ਨੀਕਸਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੨੬॥
हउ बलिहारी तिन कउ पैसि जु नीकसि जाहि ॥२६॥
Ha*o balihārī ṯin ka*o pais jo nīkas jāhi. ||26||
I am a sacrifice to those who are thrown in, and still escape. ||26||

He teaches good things but they are not related to what we are discussing.
First he says be in love, and gives example of what NOT be in love with. [24]
Then he says that when you are in love, things like long and short hair don't matter. [25]
Then he goes onto to say how the blind(the ones who are not in love), fall into the trap of maya, duality and alienation
.
He then says,"
I am a sacrifice to those who are thrown in, and still escape. " [he praises them] [26]
 
haha, I thought I'd throw that shabad out there and see what people think. Its clear that you understand the shabad's message. But notice how the guru has put different hairstyles all into under one label. He has not differentiated between long hair and short hair.
:whisling:

I would have to disagree here about the hairstyle comment. These Shabads do not say anything about long hair. But they do say something about Shave heads, matted tangles, and keeping the hair in braids.
 

BhagatSingh

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I would have to disagree here about the hairstyle comment. These Shabads do not say anything about long hair. But they do say something about Shave heads, matted tangles, and keeping the hair in braids.
matted hair and braids are results of long hair... I am starting to think that Iam wasting my time with this since your definition of long hair is completely different from everyone else's. Let's hear your definition so we can base arguments on that!
This Shabad by Bhagat Kabeer ji is not talking about what we are discussing;hair. If you agree we can move on to the next shabad that i want to look at and another point that was overlooked.
Singh ji HALF of the shabad mentions hair!! You are completely ignoring one HALF of a shabad. Do you think you have understood the meaning by doing so?
If you don't think it is talking about hair then it's a waste of my time to have to keep trying to look at it from a different perspective.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Singh
I would have to disagree here about the hairstyle comment. These Shabads do not say anything about long hair. But they do say something about Shave heads, matted tangles, and keeping the hair in braids.

matted hair and braids are results of long hair... I am starting to think that Iam wasting my time with this since your definition of long hair is completely different from everyone else's. Let's hear your definition so we can base arguments on that!

Guru ji is saying here that the ones that shave their head bald and the ones with matted tangled hair are unclean from the inside and outside. they waste their life in corruption but act holy from the outside.
 
Quote:
This Shabad by Bhagat Kabeer ji is not talking about what we are discussing;hair. If you agree we can move on to the next shabad that i want to look at and another point that was overlooked.
Singh ji HALF of the shabad mentions hair!! You are completely ignoring one HALF of a shabad. Do you think you have understood the meaning by doing so?
If you don't think it is talking about hair then it's a waste of my time to have to keep trying to look at it from a different perspective.

The shabad is only talking about hair when one is completely in love with the Lord and before that people are just using the shabad to say hair is not required in Sikhi because of this shabad. And in this shabad there is only one line that talks about hair rest is about duality and love for the Lord. Either way the shabad does not say keep hair or cut hair. So in the end it does not bring us closer to any side of the arguement.
 
Originally Posted by Singh
So what is your point here?

huh?
You said, " Yes question what you want but if you do not follow Guru ji then what is the use of all the answers. "

I replied, "Did Guru Nanak (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) follow any Guru Jis? No, and yet he found a use of all the answers."

My point is we can do the same.

Look Bhagat Singh ji in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says a Sikh must follow the Guru and here you are saying we don’t have to follow the Guru. Even if we have all the answers we are still Sikhs of the Guru and the Guru is the connection to God for the Sikhs; without the Guru life is meaningless and all the answers to the world are meaningless without the Guru. Plus later on I asked you if you took Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as your Guru and you replied yes I do. But in the above comment you have said we can do the same as in Guru Nanak Dev ji did not have a Guru so we do not need one either if we have all the answers. You claim to be a Sikh but then go on to say this.
Please explain yourself hear.
 

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Singh ji and others

Look at these 3 tuks reflectively -- together they suggest something about the foolishness of trying to use Sri Guru Granth Sahib to decide whether hair should be long, short, shaven, or matted.


smJY sUJY piV piV bUJY AMiq inrMqir swcw
: Samjai soojai parhi parhi boojhai anti niranatari saachaa: If one understands, realizes and comprehends what he reads and studies, in the end he will realize that the True God dwells deep within his nucleus (sggs 930).

pVIAY guxIAY ikAw kQIAY jw muMFhu GuQw jwie: Parheeai guneeai kiaa kathheeai jaa mundhahu ghuthhaa jaae: What is the point of reading, studying and debating, if one loses the awareness of his very Source? (sggs 68).

dyv Byv n jwneI ijh byd Aaur kqyb
: Dev bhev na jaanayee jih Beda or Kateb: The mystery of God is unknown to any Deva (demigod) and it is also indescribable by any scripture (Paatshaahee 10, Jaap 82)

If He dwells in the "nucleus" of our being, then surely He dwells everywhere. And if one is without hair He dwells in the hair follicles.

Singhhi, please, tell us in a concise way: What is the point you are making?
 
Singh ji and others

Look at these 3 tuks reflectively -- together they suggest something about the foolishness of trying to use Sri Guru Granth Sahib to decide whether hair should be long, short, shaven, or matted.


smJY sUJY piV piV bUJY AMiq inrMqir swcw: Samjai soojai parhi parhi boojhai anti niranatari saachaa: If one understands, realizes and comprehends what he reads and studies, in the end he will realize that the True God dwells deep within his nucleus (sggs 930).

pVIAY guxIAY ikAw kQIAY jw muMFhu GuQw jwie: Parheeai guneeai kiaa kathheeai jaa mundhahu ghuthhaa jaae: What is the point of reading, studying and debating, if one loses the awareness of his very Source? (sggs 68).

dyv Byv n jwneI ijh byd Aaur kqyb: Dev bhev na jaanayee jih Beda or Kateb: The mystery of God is unknown to any Deva (demigod) and it is also indescribable by any scripture (Paatshaahee 10, Jaap 82)

If He dwells in the "nucleus" of our being, then surely He dwells everywhere. And if one is without hair He dwells in the hair follicles.

Singhhi, please, tell us in a concise way: What is the point you are making?


To put it simple as possible Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji gave a hukam that all his followers must keep hair and this Hukam did not just come for the Khalsa panth it was for the Sikhs also to never cut their hair from any body part. Furthermore no one can say it does not say this in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji so it don't apply to me. In the Sri Guru Granth Sahib it say there is: Ika Bani Ik Gur Iko Shabad Vichaar. Meaning from Guru Nanak Dev ji to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only one jot that lives in all. So what Guru Gobind Singh ji has said about the Sikhs applies to every Sikh regardless if they are apart of the Khalsa Panth.
 

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Singh ji

Do you therefore think that Sri Guru Gobind Singh would reject, or denounce, or brush aside someone who had a deep spiritual relationship with Guruji but who did not keep hair?

Or do you think keeping hair is absolutely necessary for someone to have a deep spiritual relationship with Guruji?

BTW, the scholar T Singh who inspired my questions above wrote at this link that literal reading of religious scriptures of any kind is the mark of a religious fanatic. "Studying the scriptures, reading them to other people, and wandering around at places of pilgrimage, the disease (of false ego) is not taken away (sggs 905).
http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart117.htm
 
Singh ji

Do you therefore think that Sri Guru Gobind Singh would reject, or denounce, or brush aside someone who had a deep spiritual relationship with Guruji but who did not keep hair?

Or do you think keeping hair is absolutely necessary for someone to have a deep spiritual relationship with Guruji?

What i think does not matter my opinion means nothing neither does anyone elses. The Guru has spoken A SIKH MUST KEEP HIS HAIR. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO FOLLOW THE GURU THAT IS YOUR CHOICE, BUT THE GURU ONCE AGAIN HAS SPOKEN HAIR IS A MUST FOR A SIKH PERIOD.
 

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