Grammer / Vyakarn - Gurbani Vyakaran (Viyakaran, Vayakaran, Viakaran) - Punjabi Grammar | Page 6 | Sikh Philosophy Network
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Grammer / Vyakarn Gurbani Vyakaran (Viyakaran, Vayakaran, Viakaran) - Punjabi Grammar

Aug 29, 2010
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In Gurbanee there is very little application of pure Sanskrit words. Most of the words are derived or modified words from different languages. There is major contribution of
words from Punjabi Language.

An inportant aspect is that all such words from different languages have been
used in a PATTERN OF GRAMMAR which is of Sanskrit Language.
This pattern is vital for true understanding of the messages from Gurbanee
irrespective of the language of the words.
This is most unique feature of SGGS and this can/should not be ignored.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

spnadmin

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prakash s. bagga ji, Just recently you posted as follows:

An inportant aspect is that all such words from different languages have been
used in a PATTERN OF GRAMMAR which is of Sanskrit Language.
This pattern is vital for true understanding of the messages from Gurbanee
irrespective of the language of the words.

Prakash.S.Bagga
At an early point in this thread you also said,

It is important to understand How this concept of Sanskrit Grammar Pattern is applicable in Gurbanee.

In actual Sanskrit Language the the word NOUN has different form for SINGULAR(EK VACHAN),SINGULAR(DWIVACHAN) and PLURAL
Whereas in Gurbanee the form of the NOUN word is SAME but its classification as SINGULAR(EK VACHAN),SINGULAR(DWIVACHAN) and PLURAL has been indicated thru

Long Matras of the Vowels A ,E,I,O,and U.
Out of these long matras if we consider the application of matra of Vowel U we find that
SINGULAR word with SIngle Number is with a matra of Aukad that is a Single line under its last letter
SINGULAR word with Dual Number is with a matra of Dulaikad that is two lines under its last letter and
PLURAL with many numbers is the word without any matra.

So we can see that in Gurbanee Noun words are as per pattern of Sanskrit grammar...

How this pattern of grammar in Gurbanee affects the meanings and understanding of Gurbanee is equally important to know.


You are right when you say that Punjabi makes no grammatical distinction between Dual and Plural. However, you have yet to show us how the use of matras changes “meanings and understandings,” specifically for the word "guru." You said
SINGULAR word with Dual Number is with a matra of Dulaikad that is two lines under its last letter.
This does not hold up when I looked a number of tuks.

I spent time examining “guru” in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. More than 1400 examples do not support the claims you have been making in this thread and other threads in the forum about the use of matras for “guru.”

It is hard to see any unique meanings we can get from grammatical changes in the form of “guru” in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. All that changes for the word "guru" is a change in the case. Case tells you whether "guru" is the subject or object of the verb, whether one is calling out to the Guru, or whether "guru" is used with a preposition. In any language with noun declensions we see this. As far as I can tell, changes in matra for "guru" in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, say nothing about the dual or plural.

Sanskrit and another handful of existing languages do make room for the Dual and the Plural. When they do, the rules for using the dual are specific. Most of the time the dual is used when 2 elements, a pair of persons or things, are referred to. What “two-ness” of gurus has been described or referenced in Gurbani? I honestly do not get your point. When does Gurbani refer to a pair of Gurus?

Next: Here is the Sanskirt declension of “guru.” The word is of neuter gender. Below we see the Singular, Dual and Plural for all grammatical cases.

Neuter Singular Dual Plural
Nominative Guruṇī gurūṇi
Vocative Guruṇī gurūṇi
Accusative Guruṇī gurūṇi
Instrumental guruṇā gurubhyām gurubhiḥ
Dative guruṇe gurubhyām gurubhyaḥ
Ablative guruṇaḥ gurubhyām gurubhyaḥ
Genitive guruṇaḥ guruṇoḥ gurūṇām
Locative guruṇi guruṇoḥ guruṣu

This is the “Sanskrit grammar pattern" for "guru" How should we connect it to the use of "guru" in Sri Guru Granth Sahib “ per pattern of Sanskrit grammar?” What "messages" are changed?

Also, it would be very kind if someone (other than me) were to post the declension of “guru” in all grammatical cases for both singular and plural for Punjabi so we could see for ourselves whether the Sanskrit grammar pattern argument is relevant. For example from Ang 1400 through 1402, ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ are used many times: in the grammatical cases of nominative/subject of verb, genitive/possessive, accusative/object of verb, vocative/calling out and ablative/with a preposition, but ਗੁਰ was never plural. Never an aukad was used to show a dual or plural of gurus.
 
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Luckysingh

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Dec 4, 2011
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I spent time examining the case endings and use of “guru” in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. More than 1400 examples do not support the claims you have been making in this thread and other threads in the forum about the use of matras for “guru.”

It is hard to see any unique meanings we can get from grammatical changes in the form of “guru” in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. All that changes for the word "guru" is a change in the case. Case tells you whether "guru" is the subject or object of the verb, whether one is calling out to the Guru, or whether "guru" is used with a preposition. In any language with noun declensions we see this. As far as I can tell, changes in matra for "guru" in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, say nothing about the dual or plural.
:interestedmunda:
Adminji, I too have spent many moments examining this like other members and Prakash ji is usually kind to point out something on the lines of ''It is not a complete rule as there are exceptions !!!''
In all honesty it doesn't even come as a generalised rule because there are too many exceptions.
I cannot see anything that is even worth discussing because the message of the shabad is way too strong and unaffected by masculine/feminine, & singular/plural in my personal opinion.
lol
 

spnadmin

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Luckysingh ji

Thanks and I will keep that in mind. For me the point has been baffling for over a year. I keep looking for a hidden message that depends on whether gur, guru or guroo/gurU is under the scanner. I also have asked time and again for an explanation. Then I decided to mine Guru Granth for myself. At this time I have concluded that there is no message nor could there be because there has only been one Guru at a time for us. I take your reply as most compassionate.

We have now another thread to clear up the entire matter of singular/dual/plural for the word, guru, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Thanks to forum member Ambasaria ji. In this thread, or any other thread, where the grammatical subtleties about gur/guru/guroo matter comes up, the post will be removed and the poster will be directed to this link:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani-grammar-vyakaran/39459-gur-gur-oh-guru.html#post176243
 
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Sep 21, 2010
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Waheguru ji ka khalsa<?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
Waheguru ji ki fateh
<o:p> </o:p>
Spnadmin ji and Ambarsaria ji
<o:p> </o:p>
I am really sorry to have strayed from the topic of the thread. This certainly wasn’t my intention at all. Since some posters were beginning to give the impression that perhaps I am trying to give the impression against the strong ties between Panjabi and Gurbani and Sikhism. In the recent post I simply gave the actual statistical situation where Guru Nanak Dev ji in one of the most crucial compositions uses Panjabi to a dominant extent for the most important ideas to reach ordinary Panjabi speakers in their own language. My temptation to give data is temporary and is not a fad. This is due to my preoccupation in a couple of other projects. Actually, I am working on a computer programme to translate English to South Asian languages for the purpose of using this in some interactive situations where a speaker of one of these languages interacts with a public kiosk where an Avatar helps the user with information. I did a postgraduate qualification in UK on Database Management Systems and the project in the course was to build a simple database to be able to process data regarding the contents of any digital publication.
<o:p> </o:p>
In my immature enthusiasm, I simply used this database to analyse Japuji Sahib to prove that Guru Nanak Dev ji used Panjabi to the extent of over 80%. It took me only a few minutes. I assure you I would stop using my statistical skills here and now. As a keen student of Sikh history I also believe that unlike most other documents on Sikh history, our scripture, Guru Granth Sahib ji is an impeccable and most authentic source because it was compiled by fifth Guru ji himself and are confident that it has reached us in its original pristine form.
<o:p> </o:p>
On other ‘Granths’ you indicated my views are well known. I consider Dasam Granth to be a collection of compositions some of which may be written by tenth Guru ji such as Jaap Sahib, Swayiye, and parts of Akal Ustat and may be Zafarnama as well. The rest are writings of different persons who had beliefs based on Tantric philosophy not Sikhism.
<o:p> </o:p>
Once again I am sorry for straying from the topic of the thread. I hope you will keep me on the track in future as well.
<o:p> </o:p>
Humbly
Serjinder Singh
 
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spnadmin

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Serjinder Singh ji

I commend you for any work you are doing using computer analysis to develop methods of style analysis, almost like linguistic fingerprint recognition, to probe into the date, possible authorship, and authenticity of texts. This kind of work is invaluable. It is important work. Your enthusiasm did trigger fire-works, but I now understand better what you were trying to do.

This thread could be a wonderful thread if we could get back to topic. I look forward to hearing from you again, and regret that off-topic discussions threw us off track.
 

rkb1978

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Jan 2, 2013
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I just downloaded all pics of Punjabi Viakaran shared by Ambarsaria Veer. If someone needs pdf file of these let me know as it took me long to download each pic, and its easier to download whole pdf together.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
wjkwjkf, I saw your post and was wondering if you still have the pdf? Gyani ji at the gurdwara has the book but wants a pdf version. If you still have it can you mail it to me please?
 

aristotle

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May 11, 2010
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The phenomena is not limited to Punjabi only. Ecclesiatical (Scriptural) Latin and Classical Latin in many ways. So is the case of Gurbani. Gurbani includes many traditions of Parakrit and vernacular languages, which obviously makes it a bit different from modern Punjabi.
Though many Banis are certainly close to modern Punjabi, like that of Baba Farid Ji, Babarvani etc., any generalization made won't be helpful, hence the need of a separate grammar for understanding Gurbani.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Though many Banis are certainly close to modern Punjabi, like that of Baba Farid Ji, Babarvani etc., any generalization made won't be helpful, hence the need of a separate grammar for understanding Gurbani.
I pray with folded hands that we do not revisit Gur and GurU and Guru because of this observatiohn.
 

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