Grammer / Vyakarn - Gurbani Vyakaran (Viyakaran, Vayakaran, Viakaran) - Punjabi Grammar | Page 5 | Sikh Philosophy Network
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Grammer / Vyakarn Gurbani Vyakaran (Viyakaran, Vayakaran, Viakaran) - Punjabi Grammar

Ambarsaria

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Serjinder Singh ji I appreciate that you put in specifics and effort in your posts. I read your second post and I am happy to know of your linguistic credentials.

I would love to read your translation of Shabads or other parts as little or as big as possible and compare it with Professor Sahib Singh ji's. It will be instructive. I would not be surprised that you will be coincidental with Professor Sahib Singh ji and will go in similar specific word details as he did. In that context I see little value to all this red-lighting approach even though I am guilty of it too.

The comments here on are in reference to your specific post above,

However, Serjinder Singh ji let us not get into a match of points and counter points. Instead of counting words, is there any difficulty understanding the Shabad with Professor Sahib Singh ji's Darpan, Vyakaran and knowing Punjabi. I have not found any. None depend upon Hindi.

Professor Sahib Singh ji takes it way beyond this Hindi nonsense as the language of the intellectuals was Sanskrit. He goes into the core Sanskrit words and the origins and meanings thereof if words with such origin are stated in Sanskrit complexity and accent or intonation.

Ask yourself a very simple question. If all you knew was Hindi, do you believe you will understand and be able to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Ask your self a simple question, if you were to put Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji trans-literated (written in Devnagri script) into a Hindi vocabulary and Grammar checker, what would be the percentage of errors detected by such a program?

We need to stop pushing on a string arguments. These will not lead to anything.

In all my readings of parts in SGGS, I have noticed one thing. Guru ji have tried their utmost to refrain from elitist constructs in writing style. Their purpose does not appear to be a writing for few but a writing for many. By design they used language of the people, and of the region, greater Punjab. At that time Hindu writings were in Sanskrit which they avoided like plague as they saw the exploitation of this aspect by the Brahmins.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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BhagatSingh

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Suny Press is as follows,

http://www.sunypress.edu/l-18-about.aspx

A no name Publisher out of basically no name city, Buffalo New York, out of a basically no name University, as in University of Buffalo.
*double facepalm* Because one was not enough.

SUNY stands for State University of New York. http://www.suny.edu/

ABOUT

SUNY Press
The Center for Scholarly Communication for the State University of New York


As an acclaimed international publisher of distinguished research and notable works of general interest since 1966, SUNY Press supports the commitments of the State University of New York to teaching, research, and public service. Capitalizing on the latest advances in digital communication, the Press offers an innovative range of print and electronic publications to fulfill the evolving needs of scholars, students, authors, and readers.
SUNY Press sponsors nationally recognized and rapidly growing lists of publications in the areas of African American studies, Asian studies, environmental studies, Indigenous studies, Italian American studies, Jewish studies, philosophy, political science, queer studies, religion, transpersonal psychology, and women’s studies. Through its Excelsior Editions imprint, SUNY Press makes available exceptional works for all readers and showcases the diversity and abiding energy of the peoples, histories, and natural beauty of the New York region.
SUNY Press is an academic unit of SUNY Central Administration, with its personnel and business functions administered by the Research Foundation for the State University of New York. The Editorial Board is composed of faculty from campuses throughout the SUNY system.

SUNY Press has a growing network of publishing partners. The Press also has agreements with several print-on-demand and electronic vendors, including Lightning Source Inc., NetLibrary, Google, and Amazon.com. SUNY Press has sales representation on six continents. SUNY Press is a proud member of the Association of American University Presses.
An accessible translation of the songs of the saints from the Adi Granth, the Sikh holy book.

This complete and accessible translation of the songs of the saints from the Sikh holy book, the Adi Granth, provides access to the hymns written by Hindu and Muslim devotional writers of north India, who flourished from the twelfth to the eighteenth centuries.

The songs of the saints hold a unique position in Sikhism in that they provide the faith with a prehistory that reaches back to the dawn of north Indian Bhakti and Sant traditions. These works provided a ground upon which Sikh gurus laid the foundations of their faith.

The songs also mark the earliest beginnings of Hindi literature. Although the literary output of these saints comes down to us in various stages of corruption, the works which appeared in the Adi Granth are unchanged since their inclusion in that work in the early 1600s.

"This book is important for many fields: It is not only vital for understanding Sikhism, but also crucial for the study of the saints (sants). It is thus significant for understanding the early development of Hindi literature, which began with the sants, and the study of north Indian religion, in which the sants figure prominently." -- Daniel Gold, Cornell University

Nirmal Dass is an independent scholar and researcher. He is the author of The Avowing of King Arthur: A Modern Verse Translation, Rebuilding Babel: The Translations of W. H. Auden, and Songs of the Kabir from the Adi Granth, also published by SUNY Press.
Sounds like it is well researched, I think I will read it.
 

spnadmin

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Last night I read this entire thread several times. Yes it took hours to plough through the intricacies (which good Veerji Ambarsaria calls strings of argument). I too have credentials in linguistics, though not in the northern Indian branches most recently discussed. There are some common sense perspectives on this that no one has considered.

Could it be that Guru Sahiban composed and wrote in a form of language understandable by most in the region? Could it be that the influences of other languages, perhaps Hindi or Farsi or Sanskrit, were mapped onto that common language as a practical matter of political and economic survival? Could it be that the common language never really disappeared?

Consider this example to get my point. The early Renaissance English poet Thomas Wyatt, born 1503 died 1542, was a contemporary of our first 3 Gurus including Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. More about their vital role in a later post. An English poet because of geography, what language did Skelton write in? Today we think of him as writing in English. Did he really? Could we not make the case that he actually wrote in French, because after all, the language of the educated, the language of the court was French, was it not? Or maybe it wasn't French?

The ruling classes in Wyatt's day were descendants of Norman-French conquerors following the Battle of Hastings in 1066, won by William the Conqueror a Norman-French noble. The story of the language of this forum, which is English, is not so different from the story of Punjabi. Before William the language of the influential was Anglo- Saxon. After the Norman conquest of England, the language of the conquerors was Norman French, which morphed into French-Anglo English, which morphed into Anglo-French, which morphed into modern English. This process took several centuries. The language spoken by the common man and woman ran parallel to the language of the court which over time was less and less French and more and more what today we call English. Amazing to me in this time-line is that early forms of Anglo-Saxon never really disappeared. If we analyze the local English dialects (such as the Oxfordshire dialect) one notes that some of them retain many features of centuries old Saxon vocabulary and grammar. The moral of the tale so far: that English like any other language, and most certainly Punjabi, evolves because of contact with other languages,

A lot of this thread has been fixated on words that come from places other than the geographical region called Punjab. Of course they do! Why are we surprised? From approximately the year 1000 CE Punjab was the crossroad of more than one cultural encounter, including forcible military encounters.

The more important point is speakers of languages borrow from other languages if they want to adapt to changing economic and political conditions. This has always been true.

Even the Latin spoken by the Romans differed from schoolroom to street and from one region of Italy of the time to another. The "classical" or schoolhouse Latin used by Julius Caesar to write about his wars of conquest was not the Latin spoken in the marketplace of his time, and it was the Latin of the marketplace that morphed into the Romance languages of Europe, following the Roman conquest. One interesting note: it was the Latin spoken by conquering Roman armies that changed because it was shaped by local European languages, and not the other way around. In the same way, English spoken today sounds more like the Germanic Saxon, and its "core" vocabulary is drawn more from the Saxon, than French.

Back to English contemporaries of Gurus Sahiban. What was the language of Thomas Wyatt or Skelton or Shakespeare? Old German? Saxon? French? Franco-English? Anglo-French? Everyone recognizes their work as written in English, though the spellings they used differ from the modern and the words they use in many instances "derive" from the French and other sources. Likewise, one recognizes the language of Guru Granth as Punjabi
. I am fairly willing to assert that because I can understand the language of Guru Granth, albeit faltering at times, but have not a clue of Farsi.

For the record, most historians of northern Indian languages agree that Punjabi is older than Sanskrit. So why not take a risk based on the example from English. Punjabi may have been heavily impacted by the languages of conquerors, the educated and the wealthy. However, it was Punjabi that absorbed these influences, whilst it remained recognizably Punjabi? That it changed over centuries. That in 2013 the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not a linguistic curiosity understood only by scholars. That it was written and is written in a language that the ordinary person can wrap his mind around --- which was of course the entire objective of Guru Nanak, Guru Angad, Guru Amardas and ultimately Guru Arjan Dev.

And please please do not reply that somehow the languages of India, unlike other languages, are immune to similar influences toward change. All you have to do is consult a Sanskrit dictionary to discover that individual words changed in meaning with the centuries.

The word 'guru" itself has numerous meanings in Sanskrit depending upon the context of use as found in a sacred text and century of that text. The Manier-Williams dictionary is a good source for exploring the transformations of "guru."
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Examples of how the Conqueror's langauge was influenced by Punjabi - language of the vanquished...

KAALA (black) Punjabi
SHAH (black) imported
KAALA-SHAH - totally BLACK..a new word !! (also spelt kaala-siah)

Laal (red) Punjabi
Sooha (red) Imported..
LAAL-SOOHA...totally RED ..new word

Peela (Yellow) Punjabi
Bhook (yellowish) imported
Peela-Bhook...very yellowish...new word

Many such Combination words were introduced as the vanquished struggled to learn the language of the conquerors..and the conquerors struggled to communicate with their newly conquered peoples.. as a result Punjabi gained new words...shah, sooha, bhook as well as the new combo words !!

The gautama Budha had also discarded SANSKRIT and OPTED for PALI..a langauge fo the Common Masses to preach his Message...becasue sanskrit was controlled by the Brahmin and the ordinary man was not allowed even to learn/listen to Sanskrit. As Buddhism died out in India..PALI followed suit..today the Thai/Cambodian langauges are based/ENRICHED by /via... Pali because of BUDDHISM./its sacred texts etc

GURU NANAK JI SAHIB also chose the COMMON mans language PUNJABI for His Message.Guru Angad ji IMPROVED the Punjabi ALPHABET (which already existed long before as landi script used by the common masses buisness men etc for records)

Spnadmin ji has explained it all very well...the jigsaw pieces fall into place...
 

Ambarsaria

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spnadmin ji thanks for your wonderful post. Just one comment.
For the record, most historians of northern Indian languages agree that Punjabi is older than Sanskrit. So why not take a risk based on the example from English and posit that Punjabi may have been heavily impacted by the languages of conquerors, the educated and the wealthy. However, it was Punjabi that absorbed these influences, whilst it remained recognizably Punjabi? That it changed over centuries and yet in 2013 the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is less a linguistic curiosity accessible only to scholars and more likely to be written in a language that the ordinary person can wrap his mind around --- which was of course the entire objective of Guru Nanak, Guru Angad, Guru Amardas and ultimately Guru Arjan Dev.
...........
Question you ask and brilliantly so is "why not take the risk"? spnadmin ji it is very simple in my mind. It has become fashionable in India for Sikhs to speak and learn Hindi and push Punjabi back as language of the less sophisticated and not for the up and up. Punjabi is like peindu/rural and Hindi is shehri/Cities suitable.

This zeal then continues and they get played by the Hindi crowd up to little good for Sikhism and/or Punjabi.
The results are here.
We have the blinded Sikhs who do believe that Sikhism and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Guru ji's work will survive the demise of Punjabi. From my point of view it is short sighted and fatal path.

Prakash Singh Badal's speech during Sadbhavna Mission - YouTube

The above is coming from the Chief Minister of Punjab created on the so called census of Punjabi speakers and representing their aspirations as Punjabis.

PS: Imagine if it was carried out upholding the dignity of Punjabi language. Say the following scenario,

  • The chief Minsiter speaks in Punjabi
  • Has a simulcast translator translating it into Hindi
  • Better still being in Gujrat having a translator translate it into Gujrati
  • Such folks need to learn from Tamil Nadu how to get respect or protect languages as they do to Telgu in Tamil Nadu
Captain Amarinder Singh In Aamne Samne - YouTube

Navjot Singh Siddhu's speech at Narendra Modi's Sadbhavana mission fast venue - YouTube

I ask of the Punjabi readers and others on this thread, how many have read Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Vyakaran end to end?
If these folks are capable of reading Punjabi, they don't need third part mis-interpretations from no names like Nirmal Dass. Bhagat Singh ji has committed to read Nirmal Dass published through University of Buffalo icecreamkaur! I have driven past it and it feels/smells like a University of Buffalo even though it comes under the umbrella of State University of New York. I believe he believes he scored a point and I am happy to make his day.

This thread was started to review Gurbani Vyakaran/grammar and not to prove that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in Punjabi. Even at that, it was started to ensure that mis-constructs in the name of Grammar are not applied towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The end objective being that the beauty and simplicity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's writing and message is not destroyed through such convolutions.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Spnadmin ji,
It is nice to see the comments of Spnadmin ji on this subject .While I appreciate most of the points stated except for this as
The word 'guru" itself has numerous meanings in Sanskrit depending upon the context of use as found in a sacred text and century of that text. The Manier-Williams dictionary is a good source for exploring the transformations of "guru."<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

It would be important to understand what meaning GuRu ji has accepted ?
One can find that there is only one meaning being refered for the word GuRu.
It is being clearly told that the word GuRu referes to a SINGLE SPECIFIC WORD

If one assumes that there are different meanings for the word GuRu this would go against the grammar of the word as GuRu word is SINGULR NOUN.

There can be different meanings for the word "GuR " which is PLURAL NUMBER .
Application of this word can have different meanings as per context of usage.

The problem is that we hardly accept that GuRu and GuR are two different words
The word GuR is always equated as GuRu which I think needs to be relooked.

These are just my views as per observations of grammar of Gurbanee words.

With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

spnadmin

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Gyani ji

I knew in the depths of mind and heart that you would prove the pudding. Thanks for those hands-on, every day, plain and simple examples of how Punjabi changed the languages of outsiders. Time to stop looking at this as a job for sophisticates. The rock is Punjabi. Everything else is etching on the surface of the rock.
 

spnadmin

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prakash.s.bagga ji


I did some Sanskrit 101 research last night and a completely different picture emerged from my studies. Specifically regarding the notion of "guru" in the singular, dual and plural. I don't want to hog the thread but have my notes gathered together and will weigh in on the mysteries of gurU or guroo later on. Quite a surprise it was. Why I did not take the obvious path and look at a grammar lesson, which was right out there for the looking out, is beyond me. Anyway, I am going to disagree with you and hope you can tell me in which language "guru" takes on both a dual and a plural form, because it isn't Punjabi. And in Sanskrit the dual and plural forms of guru are not what you have posted. So maybe it is a different language, one other than Punjabi or Sanskrit. Thanks. We continue to learn,
 

Luckysingh

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Serjinder Singh ji has fairly proven the declaration that he made earlier with showing 73 words out of 78 being in farsi for the mentioned shabad.
Now some arab or iranian should be able to understand and acknowledge that shabad as it is in farsi as stated. If this cannot be done by the said middle east person, then we have an argument.

Serjinderji has also proven that many punjabi words have been derived from these other languages. There is no argument there.


However, I can't see what the problem really is with some members that can't accept this!!

Why have this fear of punjabi fading away and finding it's death ?
I'm not sure and anyway am I helping by being here in the west some tens of thousands of miles away ?

On that note, I only understand it and am just about lingual because I made an effort in my own time. I'm 3rd generation here anyway and it's pretty obvious to me that in another 2-3 generations they are not going to be speaking, reading or writing punjabi over this side of the world. I know most of you don't like to hear or think this, but it will be fact at the rate we are going.
That's another issue anyway and we probably shouldn't divert in that angle on this thread.



Seeing all the fuss and confusion that can arise with grammar and understanding, I can't help realising the simplicity given to us.

What simplicity you may be thinking ?

OK, we are all aware and can agree that a majority of words are repeated throughout gurbani. Infact I have learnt so many words from gurmukhi due to repetition just with the help of srigranth.org for example.

Bearing this in mind we are all aware of the rehat and the 5 nitnem banis prescribed for a sikh.
Although I have not personally proved it to myself as I'm still working on the path towards full rehat and amrit, I can say that the precribed nitnem can help towards the answer.
By this I mean, that if one learns the nitnem vocabulary with the added help of reciting EVERY day, then they should find that most of the vocab will re-appear in most of the other shabads throughout the Guru Granth Sahib ji.
Therefore, the understanding for the majority should be there if one has mastered the nitnem with practice.
I can see that it is prescribed for many reasons and not just to standardise the definition of a 'sikh'.

I'm not sure what percentage of words from nitnem are mentioned in the rest of gurbani, but i'm sure it is pretty high.

In my experience so far, I have been trying to focus on vocab in japji sahib and have been surprised and pleased to see it re-occuring in other shabads throughout.
This just gives me greater confidence that if I were to eventually master all of nitnem then I needn't be worrying about the 22 or so different languages in gurbani.
Therefore, if we adhere to the rehat, we will encounter many benefits to help us progress.


Waheguru
 

spnadmin

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Luckysingh ji

I do not think that the "fuss" is orbiting around the incidence of Farsi words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. That they are there is no surprise, and you should be able to deduce the reason from my earlier post. I won't go over it again. Suffice it to say that the collision of languages results in each language being changed by the contact. Punjabi is not a lone example of that.

The "fuss" rather comes from the notion that the language of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a patchwork quilt of languages. True many languages are represented in its verses. But then, many languages are represented within any single example of modern language -- because of historical contact. A language however is more than the sum of its vocabularies, and thus the language of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is more than the sum of its Farsi, Hindi, Sanskrit, etc. words. The language of the Granth has a structure that brings all of its different vocabularies together into a logic of its own. Guru Granth Sahib was and is understandable by generations who did not need to be fluent in Farsi or Hindi to understand the Guru's bani because they were speakers of Punjabi and already had blended those foreign words into their ordinary speech. Just as you and I don't even blink when we use a word with a clear Latin source and a word derived from the French inside of a single English sentence with a Saxon/Germanic base. Most would not have been fluent in Sanskrit but would have recognized Sanskrit words. Many of us are not fluent in Latin but navigate through texts that include words from the Latin every day.

Also causing a fuss here is the apparent loss of common sense in some of the comments.

If I wanted to be ridiculous I could push the issue of language influences over the top by simply saying that none of us should be discussing Urdu or Hindi or Punjabi or what have you because so many of these north Indian languages are derived from the cultured speech of Shauraseni, an older literary language of northern India. So the grammar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is really the brainchild of Shauraseni. Do you see how simple-minded this line of argument can get?

p/s I am ready to contrast Sanskrit declension of that certain Sanskrit "word" with anyone who can tell me what the declension of that that certain "word" is in Punjabi... or to be more specific, the different cases and number of that originally Saskrit "word" in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
 
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Ambarsaria

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Luckysingh ji there is no need to shadow dance in this thread. Name me if you have to for my indiscretions.
Serjinder Singh ji has fairly proven the declaration that he made earlier with showing 73 words out of 78 being in farsi for the mentioned shabad.
...
Serjinderji has also proven that many punjabi words have been derived from these other languages. There is no argument there.

However, I can't see what the problem really is with some members that can't accept this!!
Couple of points of note. The whole storm of blinding ignorant dust was started by Serjindersingh ji stating,
...... that somehow we alienate Hindus by stating that language of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Punjabi.
Tomorrow someone will say you know some shabads alienate Hindus or Muslims. Oh OK let us take them out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=875&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&fb=0&k=1

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਿਆਣਾ
हिंदू अंन्हा तुरकू काणा ॥ दुहां ते गिआनी सिआणा ॥
Hinḏū anĥā ṯurkū kāṇā. Ḏuhāʼn ṯe gi▫ānī si▫āṇā.
he Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them.
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਨਾਖਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਇਕ ਅੱਖ ਵਾਲਾ। ਬ੍ਰਹਿਮਵੇਤਾ ਦੋਨਾਂ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਵਧੇਰੇ ਅਕਲਮੰਦ ਹੈ।

ਤੁਰਕੂ = ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ।

ਸੋ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਦੋਵੇਂ ਅੱਖਾਂ ਗਵਾ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਦੀ ਇੱਕ ਅੱਖ ਹੀ ਖ਼ਰਾਬ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ; ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੋਹਾਂ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਸਿਆਣਾ ਉਹ ਬੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਹਸਤੀ ਦਾ ਸਹੀ) ਗਿਆਨ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ।

Faridkot wala Teeka below:
ਏਕ ਸ੍ਵੈ ਧਰਮ ਏਕ ਗਿਆਨ ਏਹਦੋ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਹੈਂ ਸੋ ਹਿੰਦੂਕੇ ਦੋਨੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈਂ ਇਸ ਲੀਏ ਅੰਧਾ ਹੈ ਔ (ਤੁਰਕੂ) ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨਕਾ ਜੋ ਏਕ ਦੀਨ ਮੈਂ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਤਾ ਰੂਪ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਹੋਤਾ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਇਸ ਲੀਏ ਕਾਣਾ ਹੈਪ੍ਰੰਤੂ ਜੋ ਇਨਾਂ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਗਿਆਨਵਾਨ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਆਣਾ ਹੈ॥
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮਸੀਤਿ ੪॥੩॥੭॥
हिंदू पूजै देहुरा मुसलमाणु मसीति ॥ नामे सोई सेविआ जह देहुरा न मसीति ॥४॥३॥७॥
Hinḏū pūjai ḏehurā musalmāṇ masīṯ. Nāme so▫ī sevi▫ā jah ḏehurā na masīṯ. ||4||3||7||
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque. Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7||
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੰਦਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਉਪਾਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਅਤੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਮਸਜਿਦ ਵਿੱਚ। ਨਾਮਾ ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਘਾਲ ਕਮਾਉਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਕੋਲ ਨਾਂ ਮੰਦਰ ਹੈ ਨਾਂ ਹੀ ਮਸਜਿਦ।

ਜਹ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ। ਦੇਹੁਰਾ = ਮੰਦਰ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
(ਹਿੰਦੂਨੇ ਇੱਕ ਅੱਖ ਤਾਂ ਤਦੋਂ ਗਵਾਈ ਜਦੋਂ ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਇਸ਼ਟ ਬਾਰੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾ-ਹੀਣ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਘੜਨ ਲੱਗਪਿਆ, ਤੇ ਦੂਜੀ ਗਵਾਈ, ਜਦੋਂ ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਨਿਰਾ ਮੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠਾ ਸਮਝ ਕੇ) ਮੰਦਰਨੂੰ ਪੂਜਣ ਲੱਗ ਪਿਆ, ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ (ਦੀ ਹਜ਼ਰਤ ਮੁਹੰਮਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿਚ ਪੂਰੀ ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇਇੱਕ ਅੱਖ ਤਾਂ ਸਾਬਤ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਦੂਜੀ ਗਵਾ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੈ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ ਨਿਰਾ ਮਸਜਿਦ ਵਿਚਜਾਣ ਕੇ) ਮਸਜਿਦ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਰੱਬ ਦਾ ਘਰ ਸਮਝ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਮੈਂ ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਨਾਹ ਕੋਈ ਖ਼ਾਸ ਮੰਦਰ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਨਾ ਮਸਜਿਦ ॥੪॥੩॥੭

Faridkot wala Teeka below:
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੋ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਪੂਜਤਾਹੈ ਔ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਤਾ ਹੈ ਔ ਮੈਂ ਨਾਮੇ ਨੇ ਸੋ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਹੈ (ਜਹ) ਜਿਸ ਮੈਂ ਨਾਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਹੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਏ ਔ ਨਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਭਾਵ ਸਾਰੇ ਜੋ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਹੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੋ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਹੈਇਸ ਸਬਦ ਕਾ ਤਾਤਪਰਜੁ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਆਦਿਕੋਂ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਮੈਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾਬਿਆਜ ਨਿਹਚੇ ਰਹਤ ਪੁਰਸੋਂ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਮੈਂਤਾਤਪਰਜੁ ਹੈ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
You think our Guru ji cared or we need to defend what they preached. They preached what they believed and that is the foundation of Sikhism. <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Sikhism is not Hinduism or Islam and it is independent built on wisdom of all Guru ji and of numerous martyrs/shaheeds.[/FONT]<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Sikhism is a thorn in the azz of Hinduism and Islam because Sikhism does not believe in what these do/did to people in the street or what they practice/practiced in terms of connecting with the creator/God or in living in consonance with creation and all with equality.

Let us go on to your other thesis in the excerpts above. There are statements to prove that a given shabad has many other language words. Who denies that there are words of other languages adopted into Punjabi or within the usage in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji adapts these in the context of Punjabi and these are understandable in the context of the shabad without much fanfare about the language these originate from. The effort to prove by sundry shabads a point about the use of Farsi (Persian) is just as mute. It has been well recognized by Prof. Sahib Singh ji who did more than just count words in Shabads, he gives expositions and meanings of these for all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with all words of lesser familiarity in common Punjabi usage.

The famous Shabad from Serjindersingh ji's post with so called Hindi perponderance,

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ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ
रागु देवगंधारी महला ९ ॥
Rāg ḏevganḏẖārī mėhlā 9.
Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree, Ninth Mehl:
ਰਾਗ ਦੇਵ ਗੰਧਾਰੀ। ਪੰਜਵੀਂ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ।
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ਰਾਗ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਗਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ।

ਯਹ ਮਨੁ ਨੈਕ ਕਹਿਓ ਕਰੈ
यह मनु नैक न कहिओ करै ॥
Yėh man naik na kahi▫o karai.
This mind does not follow my advice one tiny bit.
ਇਹ ਮਨ, ਭੋਰਾ ਭਰ, ਮੇਰੇ ਆਖੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਦਾ।
ਯਹ ਮਨੁ = ਇਹ ਮਨ। ਨੈਕ = ਰਤਾ ਭਰ ਭੀ। ਕਹਿਓ = ਕਿਹਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼, ਦਿੱਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ।
ਇਹ ਮਨ ਰਤਾ ਭਰ ਭੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਕਿਹਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਮੰਨਦਾ।

ਸੀਖ ਸਿਖਾਇ ਰਹਿਓ ਅਪਨੀ ਸੀ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਤੇ ਟਰੈ ੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
सीख सिखाइ रहिओ अपनी सी दुरमति ते न टरै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sīkẖ sikẖā▫e rahi▫o apnī sī ḏurmaṯ ṯe na tarai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
I am so tired of giving it instructions - it will not refrain from its evil-mindedness. ||1||Pause||
ਆਪਣੇ ਵੱਲੋਂ ਮੈਂ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਸਿੱਖਮਤ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਹਾਰ ਹੰਭ ਗਿਆ ਹਾਂ। ਪਰ ਉਹ ਖੋਟੀਆਂ-ਰੁਚੀਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਟਲਦਾ। ਠਹਿਰਾਉ।
ਸੀਖ = ਸਿੱਖਿਆ। ਰਹਿਓ = ਮੈਂ ਥੱਕ ਗਿਆ ਹਾਂ। ਅਪਨੀ ਸੀ = ਆਪਣੇ ਵਲੋਂ। ਤੇ = ਤੋਂ। ਟਰੈ = ਟਲਦਾ, ਟਲੈ ॥੧॥
ਮੈਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਵਲੋਂ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਥੱਕ ਗਿਆ ਹਾਂ, ਫਿਰ ਭੀ ਇਹ ਖੋਟੀ ਮੱਤ ਵਲੋਂ ਹਟਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥

ਮਦਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ਭਇਓ ਬਾਵਰੋ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਨਹਿ ਉਚਰੈ
मदि माइआ कै भइओ बावरो हरि जसु नहि उचरै ॥
Maḏ mā▫i▫ā kai bẖa▫i▫o bāvro har jas nėh ucẖrai.
It has gone insane with the intoxication of Maya; it does not chant the Lord's Praise.
ਉਹ ਧਨ-ਪਦਾਰਥ ਦੀ ਮਸਤੀ ਨਾਲ ਪਗਲਾ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਕੀਰਤੀ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ।
ਮਦਿ = ਨਸ਼ੇ ਵਿਚ। ਬਾਵਰੋ = ਝੱਲਾ। ਜਸੁ = ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ। ਉਚਰੈ = ਉਚਾਰਦਾ।
ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਨਸ਼ੇ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਮਨ ਝੱਲਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ, ਕਦੇ ਇਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਉਚਾਰਦਾ,

ਕਰਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਜਗਤ ਕਉ ਡਹਕੈ ਅਪਨੋ ਉਦਰੁ ਭਰੈ ੧॥
करि परपंचु जगत कउ डहकै अपनो उदरु भरै ॥१॥
Kar parpancẖ jagaṯ ka▫o dahkai apno uḏar bẖarai. ||1||
Practicing deception, it tries to cheat the world, and so it fills its belly. ||1||
ਠੱਗੀ ਠੋਰੀ ਰੱਚ ਕੇ ਉਹ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਨੂੰ ਛੱਲਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਢਿੱਡ ਭਰਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਪਰਪੰਚੁ = ਵਿਖਾਵਾ, ਠੱਗੀ। ਕਉ = ਨੂੰ। ਡਹਕੈ = ਠੱਗਦਾ ਹੈ, ਛਲ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਉਦਰੁ = ਪੇਟ ॥੧॥
ਵਿਖਾਵਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਨੂੰ ਠੱਗਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ, (ਠੱਗੀ ਨਾਲ ਇਕੱਠੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਧਨ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ) ਆਪਣਾ ਪੇਟ ਭਰਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੧॥

ਸੁਆਨ ਪੂਛ ਜਿਉ ਹੋਇ ਸੂਧੋ ਕਹਿਓ ਕਾਨ ਧਰੈ
सुआन पूछ जिउ होइ न सूधो कहिओ न कान धरै ॥
Su▫ān pūcẖẖ ji▫o ho▫e na sūḏẖo kahi▫o na kān ḏẖarai.
Like a dog's tail, it cannot be straightened; it will not listen to what I tell it.
ਕੁੱਤੇ ਦੀ ਪੂਛਲ ਦੀ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਿੱਧਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਜੋ ਕੁਛ ਮੈਂ ਆਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਉਸ ਵੱਲ ਕੰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ।
ਸੁਆਨ = ਕੁੱਤਾ। ਜਿਉ = ਵਾਂਗ। ਸੂਧੋ = ਸਿੱਧਾ, ਸੁੱਚੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਨ ਕਾਨ ਧਰੈ = ਕੰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਧਰਦਾ, ਧਿਆਨ ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੁਣਦਾ।
ਕੁੱਤੇ ਦੀ ਪੂਛਲ ਵਾਂਗ ਇਹ ਮਨ ਕਦੇ ਭੀ ਸਿੱਧਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ, (ਕਿਸੇ ਦੀ ਭੀ) ਦਿੱਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਨੂੰ ਧਿਆਨ ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੁਣਦਾ।

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਜੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਤ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਕਾਜੁ ਸਰੈ ੨॥੧॥
कहु नानक भजु राम नाम नित जा ते काजु सरै ॥२॥१॥
Kaho Nānak bẖaj rām nām niṯ jā ṯe kāj sarai. ||2||1||
Says Nanak, vibrate forever the Name of the Lord, and all your affairs shall be adjusted. ||2||1||
ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਦੀਵ ਹੀ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰ, ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਤੇਰੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਰਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਣਗੇ।
ਭਜੁ = ਭਜਨ ਕਰ। ਜਾ ਤੇ = ਜਿਸ ਨਾਲ। ਕਾਜੁ = (ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ) ਕੰਮ। ਸਰੈ = ਸਿਰੇ ਚੜ੍ਹ ਜਾਏ ॥੨॥੧॥
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ, ਆਖ! ਰੋਜ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਭਜਨ ਕਰਿਆ ਕਰ ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨਮ-ਮਨੋਰਥ ਹੱਲ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ ॥੨॥੧॥
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=536&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&fb=0&k=1
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Here the shabad with Farsi preponderance,

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ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ਘਰੁ
रागु तिलंग महला १ घरु १
Rāg ṯilang mėhlā 1 gẖar 1
Raag Tilang, First Mehl, First House:
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ। ਪਹਿਲੀ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ।
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ਰਾਗ ਤਿਲੰਗ, ਘਰ ੧ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ।

ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. Truth Is The Name. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying. Beyond Birth. Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace:
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੇਵਲ ਇਕ ਹੈ।ਸੱਚਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਰਚਣਹਾਰ ਉਸ ਵਿਅਕਤੀ ਅਤੇ ਅਮਰ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਸਰੂਪ। ਉਹ ਨਿਡੱਰ, ਦੁਸ਼ਮਨੀ-ਰਹਿਤ, ਅਜਨਮਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਹਸਵੈ-ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ਵਾਨ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਦਇਆ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਉਹ ਪਾਇਆਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।
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ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖ ਇੱਕ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ 'ਹੋਂਦ ਵਾਲਾ' ਹੈ ਜੋ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਦਾ ਰਚਨਹਾਰ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਸਭਵਿਚ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਹੈ, ਭੈ ਤੋਂ ਰਹਿਤ ਹੈ, ਵੈਰ-ਰਹਿਤ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਰੂਪ ਕਾਲ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਰੀਰ ਨਾਸ-ਰਹਿਤ ਹੈ), ਜੋ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦਾ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਤੋਂ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਯਕ ਅਰਜ ਗੁਫਤਮ ਪੇਸਿ ਤੋ ਦਰ ਗੋਸ ਕੁਨ ਕਰਤਾਰ
यक अरज गुफतम पेसि तो दर गोस कुन करतार ॥
Yak araj gufṯam pes ṯo ḏar gos kun karṯār.
I offer this one prayer to You; please listen to it, O Creator Lord.
ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੇ ਮੂਹਰੇ ਇਕ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਤੂੰ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਸ੍ਰਵਣ ਕਰ, ਹੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ!
ਯਕ = ਇਕ। ਅਰਜ = ਅਰਜ਼, ਬੇਨਤੀ। ਗੁਫਤਮ = ਗੁਫ਼ਤਮ, ਮੈਂ ਆਖ਼ੀ {ਗੁਫ਼ਤ = ਆਖੀ। ਮ = ਮੈਂ}। ਪੇਸਿ = ਪੇਸ਼ਿ, ਸਾਹਮਣੇ, ਅੱਗੇ। ਪੇਸਿ ਤੋ = ਤੇਰੇ ਅੱਗੇ। ਦਰ = ਵਿਚ। ਗੋਸ = ਗੋਸ਼, ਕੰਨ। ਦਰ ਗੋਸ =ਕੰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ। ਕੁਨ = ਕਰ। ਦਰ ਗੋਸ ਕੁਨ = ਕੰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਕਰ, ਧਿਆਨ ਨਾਲ ਸੁਣ। ਕਰਤਾਰ = ਹੇਕਰਤਾਰ!
ਹੇ ਕਰਤਾਰ! ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਇਕ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ, (ਮੇਰੀ ਬੇਨਤੀ) ਧਿਆਨ ਨਾਲ ਸੁਣ।

ਹਕਾ ਕਬੀਰ ਕਰੀਮ ਤੂ ਬੇਐਬ ਪਰਵਦਗਾਰ ੧॥
हका कबीर करीम तू बेऐब परवदगार ॥१॥
Hakā Kabīr karīm ṯū be▫aib parvarḏagār. ||1||
You are true, great, merciful and spotless, O Cherisher Lord. ||1||
ਤੂੰ ਸੱਚਾ, ਵੱਡਾ, ਦਇਆਵਾਨ ਅਤੇ ਪਾਪ-ਰਹਿਤ ਪਾਲਣ ਪੋਸਣਹਾਰ ਹੈ।
ਹਕਾ = ਹੱਕਾ, ਸੱਚਾ। ਕਬੀਰ= ਵਡਾ। ਕਰੀਮ = ਕਰਮ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ, ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਐਬ = ਵਿਕਾਰ। ਬੇਐਬ =ਨਿਰ-ਵਿਕਾਰ, ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ। ਪਰਵਦਗਾਰ = ਪਰਵਰਦਗਾਰ, ਪਾਲਣਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ॥੧॥
ਤੂੰ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈਂ। ਤੂੰ (ਸਭ ਤੋਂ) ਵੱਡਾ ਹੈਂ, ਤੂੰ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈਂ, ਤੂੰ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਹਸਤੀ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈਂ, ਤੂੰ ਸਭ ਦਾ ਪਾਲਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈਂ ॥੧॥

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਮੁਕਾਮੇ ਫਾਨੀ ਤਹਕੀਕ ਦਿਲ ਦਾਨੀ
दुनीआ मुकामे फानी तहकीक दिल दानी ॥
Ḏunī▫ā mukāme fānī ṯėhkīk ḏil ḏānī.
The world is a transitory place of mortality - know this for certain in your mind.
ਸੰਸਾਰ ਇਕ ਨਾਸਵੰਤ ਟਿਕਾਣਾ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਸੱਚ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਜਾਣ।
ਮੁਕਾਮ = ਥਾਂ। ਫਾਨੀ = ਫ਼ਾਨੀ, ਫ਼ਨਾਹ ਹੋਣ ਵਾਲਾ, ਨਾਸਵੰਤ। ਮੁਕਾਮੇ ਫਾਨੀ = ਫ਼ਨਾਹ ਦਾ ਥਾਂ। ਤਹਕੀਕ = ਸੱਚ। ਦਿਲ = ਹੇ ਦਿਲ! ਦਾਨੀ = ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣ।
ਹੇ (ਮੇਰੇ) ਦਿਲ! ਤੂੰ ਸੱਚ ਜਾਣ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਨਾਸਵੰਤ ਹੈ।

ਮਮ ਸਰ ਮੂਇ ਅਜਰਾਈਲ ਗਿਰਫਤਹ ਦਿਲ ਹੇਚਿ ਦਾਨੀ ੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
मम सर मूइ अजराईल गिरफतह दिल हेचि न दानी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Mam sar mū▫e ajrā▫īl girafṯėh ḏil hecẖ na ḏānī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death, has caught me by the hair on my head, and yet, I do not know it at all in my mind. ||1||Pause||
ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਦੂਤ ਅਜਰਾਈਲ, ਨੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਿਰ ਦੇ ਵਾਲਾ ਤੋਂ ਫੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਪ੍ਰੰਤੂ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿੱਚ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਭੋਰਾ ਭਰ ਭੀ ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ। ਠਹਿਰਾਉ।
ਮਮ = ਮੇਰਾ। ਸਰ = ਸਿਰ।ਮੂਇ = ਵਾਲ। ਮਮ ਸਰ ਮੂਇ = ਮੇਰੇ ਸਿਰ ਦੇ ਵਾਲ। ਅਜਰਾਈਲ = ਅਜ਼ਰਾਈਲ, ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਫ਼ਰਿਸ਼ਤੇਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੈ। ਗਿਰਫਤਹ = ਗਿਰਫ਼ਤਹ, ਗ੍ਰਿਫ਼ਤਹ, ਫੜੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ। ਦਿਲ = ਹੇ ਦਿਲ! ਹੇਚਿ ਨ =ਕੁਝ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ। ਦਾਨੀ = ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣਦਾ ॥੧॥
ਹੇ ਦਿਲ! ਤੂੰ ਕੁਝ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਕਿ (ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਫ਼ਰਿਸ਼ਤੇ) ਅਜ਼ਰਾਈਲ ਨੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਿਰ ਦੇ ਵਾਲ ਫੜੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥

ਜਨ ਪਿਸਰ ਪਦਰ ਬਿਰਾਦਰਾਂ ਕਸ ਨੇਸ ਦਸਤੰਗੀਰ
जन पिसर पदर बिरादरां कस नेस दसतंगीर ॥
Jan pisar paḏar birāḏarāʼn kas nes ḏasṯaʼngīr.
Spouse, children, parents and siblings - none of them will be there to hold your hand.
ਵਹੁਟੀ, ਪੁੱਤ੍ਰ, ਪਿਤਾ ਅਤੇ ਵੀਰ, ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਕਿਸ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਹੱਥ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਕੜਨਾ।
ਜਨ = ਜ਼ਨ, ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ। ਪਿਸਰ =ਪੁੱਤਰ। ਪਦਰ = ਪਿਉ। ਬਿਰਾਦਰ = ਭਰਾ। ਬਿਰਾਦਰਾਂ = ਭਰਾਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ। ਕਸ = ਕੋਈ ਭੀ। ਨੇਸ= ਨੇਸਤ, ਨ ਅਸਤ, ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਦਸਤ = ਹੱਥ। ਗੀਰ = ਫੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਦਸਤੰਗੀਰ = ਹੱਥ ਫੜਨਵਾਲਾ।
ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ, ਪੁੱਤਰ, ਪਿਉ, (ਸਾਰੇ) ਭਰਾ, (ਇਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਮਦਦ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ,

ਆਖਿਰ ਬਿਅਫਤਮ ਕਸ ਦਾਰਦ ਚੂੰ ਸਵਦ ਤਕਬੀਰ ੨॥
आखिर बिअफतम कस न दारद चूं सवद तकबीर ॥२॥
Ākẖir bi▫afṯam kas na ḏāraḏ cẖūʼn savaḏ ṯakbīr. ||2||
And when at last I fall, and the time of my last prayer has come, there shall be no one to rescue me. ||2||
ਅੰਤ ਨੂੰ ਜਦ ਮੈਂ ਡਿੱਗ ਪਵਾਂਗਾ ਅਤੇ ਅਖੀਰਲੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਦਾ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਵੇਗਾ। ਤਾਂ ਕੋਈ ਜਣਾ ਭੀ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਬਚਾਉਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ।
ਆਖਿਰ = ਆਖ਼ਿਰ, ਅੰਤ ਨੂੰ।ਬਿਅਫਤਮ = ਬਿਅਫ਼ਤਮ, ਮੈਂ ਡਿੱਗਾ {ਉਫ਼ਤਾਦਨ = ਡਿੱਗਣਾ}। ਕਸ = ਕੋਈ ਭੀ। ਦਾਰਦੁ =ਰੱਖਦਾ, ਰੱਖ ਸਕਦਾ। {ਦਾਸ਼ਤਨ = ਰੱਖਣਾ}। ਚੂੰ = ਜਦੋਂ। ਸਵਦ = ਸ਼ਵਦ, ਹੋਵੇਗੀ। ਤਕਬੀਰ =ਉਹ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਜੋ ਮੁਰਦੇ ਨੂੰ ਦਬਾਣ ਵੇਲੇ ਪੜ੍ਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜਨਾਜ਼ਾ ॥੨॥
(ਜਦੋਂ)ਆਖ਼ਿਰ ਨੂੰ ਮੈਂ ਡਿੱਗਾ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਦੋਂ ਮੌਤ ਆ ਗਈ), ਜਦੋਂ ਮੁਰਦੇ ਨੂੰ ਦੱਬਣ ਵੇਲੇ ਦੀਨਮਾਜ਼ ਪੜ੍ਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਭੀ (ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਥੇ) ਰੱਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ ॥੨॥

ਸਬ ਰੋਜ ਗਸਤਮ ਦਰ ਹਵਾ ਕਰਦੇਮ ਬਦੀ ਖਿਆਲ
सब रोज गसतम दर हवा करदेम बदी खिआल ॥
Sab roj gasṯam ḏar havā karḏem baḏī kẖi▫āl.
Night and day, I wandered around in greed, contemplating evil schemes.
ਰਾਤ ਦਿਨ ਮੈਂ ਲਾਲਚ ਅੰਦਰ ਭਟਕਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਅਤੇ ਮੰਦਾ ਚਿਤਵਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਕਰਦਾ ਹਾਂ।
ਸਬ = ਸ਼ਬ, ਰਾਤ। ਰੋਜ =ਰੋਜ਼, ਦਿਨ। ਗਸਤਮ = ਗਸ਼ਤਮ, ਮੈਂ ਫਿਰਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ। ਦਰ = ਵਿਚ। ਹਵਾ = ਹਿਰਸ, ਲਾਲਚ। ਕਰਦੇਮ= ਅਸੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਰਹੇ, ਮੈਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ। ਕਰਦ = ਕੀਤਾ। ਬਦੀ = ਬੁਰਾਈ। ਖਿਆਲ = ਖ਼ਿਆਲ।ਬਦੀ ਖਿਆਲ = ਬੁਰਾਈਆਂ ਦੇ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ।
(ਸਾਰੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ) ਮੈਂ ਰਾਤ ਦਿਨ ਲਾਲਚ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ, ਮੈਂ ਬਦੀ ਦੇ ਹੀ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਕਰਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ।

ਗਾਹੇ ਨੇਕੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਰਦਮ ਮਮ . ਚਿਨੀ ਅਹਵਾਲ ੩॥
गाहे न नेकी कार करदम मम ईं चिनी अहवाल ॥३॥
Gāhe na nekī kār karḏam mam īʼn cẖinī ahvāl. ||3||
I never did good deeds; this is my condition. ||3||
ਮੈਂ ਕਦੇ ਭੀ ਚੰਗੇਗ ਅਮਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਮਾਏ। ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਹੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਵਸਥਾ।
ਗਾਹੇ = ਕਦੇ। ਗਾਹੇ ਨ = ਕਦੇ ਭੀ ਨਾਹ। ਕਰਦਮ = ਮੈਂ ਕੀਤੀ। ੲ*ਂ*ੀ = ਇਹ। ਚਿਨੀ = ਜਿਹਾ। ੲ*ਂ*ੀ ਚਿਨੀ = ਇਹੋ ਜਿਹਾ। ਅਹਵਾਲ = ਹਾਲ ॥੩॥
ਮੈਂ ਕਦੇ ਕੋਈ ਨੇਕੀ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤਾ। (ਹੇ ਕਰਤਾਰ!) ਮੇਰਾ ਇਹੋ ਜਿਹਾ ਹਾਲ ਹੈ ॥੩॥

ਬਦਬਖਤ ਹਮ ਚੁ ਬਖੀਲ ਗਾਫਿਲ ਬੇਨਜਰ ਬੇਬਾਕ
बदबखत हम चु बखील गाफिल बेनजर बेबाक ॥
Baḏbakẖaṯ ham cẖo bakẖīl gāfil benajar bebāk.
I am unfortunate, miserly, negligent, shameless and without the Fear of God.
ਮੈਂ ਨਿਕਰਮਣ ਅਤੇ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਕੰਜੂਸ, ਅਚੇਤ ਬੇਸ਼ਰਮ ਅਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਡਰ ਦੇ ਬਿਨਾਂ ਹਾਂ, ਹੇ ਸਾਈਂ!
ਬਦ = ਭੈੜਾ। ਬਖਤ = ਬਖ਼ਤ, ਨਸੀਬਾ। ਬਦ ਬਖਤ = ਭੈੜੇ ਨਸੀਬੇ ਵਾਲਾ। ਹਮ = ਅਸੀ। ਚੁ = ਵਰਗਾ। ਹਮ ਚੁ = ਸਾਡੇ ਵਰਗਾ, ਮੇਰੇ ਵਰਗਾ। ਬਖੀਲ = ਬਖ਼ੀਲ, ਚੁਗ਼ਲੀ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਗਾਫਿਲ = ਗ਼ਾਫ਼ਿਲ, ਗ਼ਫਲਤ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ, ਸੁਸਤ, ਢਿੱਲੜ, ਲਾ-ਪਰਵਾਹ। ਨਜਰ = ਨਜ਼ਰ। ਬੇ ਨਜਰ = ਢੀਠ, ਨਿਲੱਜ। ਬੇ-ਬਿਨਾ। ਬਾਕ =ਡਰ। ਬੇ ਬਾਕ = ਨਿਡਰ।
(ਹੇ ਕਰਤਾਰ!) ਮੇਰੇ ਵਰਗਾ (ਦੁਨੀਆ ਵਿਚ) ਕੋਈ ਨਿਭਾਗਾ, ਨਿੰਦਕ, ਲਾ-ਪਰਵਾਹ, ਢੀਠ ਤੇ ਨਿਡਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ,

ਨਾਨਕ ਬੁਗੋਯਦ ਜਨੁ ਤੁਰਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਚਾਕਰਾਂ ਪਾ ਖਾਕ ੪॥੧॥
नानक बुगोयद जनु तुरा तेरे चाकरां पा खाक ॥४॥१॥
Nānak bugoyaḏ jan ṯurā ṯere cẖākrāʼn pā kẖāk. ||4||1||
Says Nanak, I am Your humble servant, the dust of the feet of Your slaves. ||4||1||
ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ, ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਗੋਲਾ ਹਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਤੈਂਡੇ ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਪੈਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਧੂੜ ਹਾਂ।
ਬੁਗੋਯਦ = ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ {ਗੁਫ਼ਤਨ = ਆਖਣਾ}। ਜਨੁ = ਦਾਸ। ਤੁਰਾ = ਤੈਨੂੰ। ਪਾ ਖਾਕ = ਪਾ ਖ਼ਾਕ, ਪੈਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਕ, ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਧੂੜ। ਚਾਕਰ = ਸੇਵਕ ॥੪॥੧॥
(ਪਰ ਤੇਰਾ) ਦਾਸ ਨਾਨਕ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ (ਮੇਹਰ ਕਰ, ਮੈਨੂੰ) ਤੇਰੇ ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਧੂੜ ਮਿਲੇ ॥੪॥੧॥
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Luckysingh ji the life is much simpler but it is unnaturally made complicated.

Quite simply, let us ask ourselves what language one would like to learn to read and understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji if one had a choice of one language?

  • Hints to self,
    • It is not Hindi
    • It is not Sanskrit
    • It is not Farsi
    • It is not English
    • It is not Arabic
    • It is not French
  • Oh my God/creator, I be damned if I said it is Punjabi
In closing, I respect the stated expertise Serjindersingh ji claims and I do not claim to judge him or have such capabilities or desire. I do believe he is knowledgeable and puts in effort to be specific. These are wonderful qualities.

I wish and requested that he use his knowledge to elaborate his understanding of Shabdas, one or two or as many including all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or specific bani, say Sukhmani Sahib. Better still say a bani collection in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with preponderance of Farsi words. I believe he can do it wonderfully and I hope we work in that direction as all of us would benefit.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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I think whatever be the language of SGGS it should not be a matter of concern.
There is only One Source of all lanuages and that is CREATOR itself.So one is expected to have respect for all languages.
The real concern should be about the Knowledge of Gurmati Raam Naamu.
If one gets this from any of western languages I would respect thse languages too.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Luckysingh

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Ambarsaria ji,

I was surprised like many of us that Serjinder ji's original claim was proven, as it wasn't what I iniitially assumed.

I wasn't trying to shadow dance as you probably know by now that with issues where barriers of opposition begin to form, I usually come in with a very neutral stance to try and diffuse the barrier.

This is one reason why I realised that mastering vocab of nitnem can be achieved by all of us as explained and this can lead us all to having an advantage when reading further gurbani.

I've learnt from this issue and now it's time to move on and accomplish further.
 
Aug 29, 2010
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Ambarsaria ji,

I was surprised like many of us that Serjinder ji's original claim was proven, as it wasn't what I iniitially assumed.

I wasn't trying to shadow dance as you probably know by now that with issues where barriers of opposition begin to form, I usually come in with a very neutral stance to try and diffuse the barrier.

This is one reason why I realised that mastering vocab of nitnem can be achieved by all of us as explained and this can lead us all to having an advantage when reading further gurbani.

I've learnt from this issue and now it's time to move on and accomplish further.
LUCKY SINGH Ji,
There are nearly 1000 Arabi /Fa{censored}e words in the whole of SGGS .
This collection with their respective meaning is beautifully given in one of the Gurbanee Viyakaran Book by Joginder Sibgh Talwara ji.
This is just for your information.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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The Attempt to Alienate PUNJABI from SGGS...is like trying to separate the SUGAR from MILK....
The GURU SAHIBS in their Infinte WISDOM chose and worked very hard at it too...to Have a distinct ALPHABET/SCRIPT/Grammar/and PUNJABI to write down the Gurbani that came to them as Khasam ki bani/Dhur Ki Bani.
Guru nanak ji clearly shows His displeasure at the "other"languages...sanskrit was not chosen..the other foreign language was also not chosen - Sanskrit had the clear advantage of being already developed/rich/alphabet etc..f{censored}e also was the Language fot eh Conquerors...BUT NO..Guur Nnak ji chose to go with GURMUKHI/PUNJABI. Thats a FACT we cannot ignore no matter how much and how many imported words we count and point to...Foreign words DONT CHANGE The Underlying Rock -PUNJABI...just as putting imported tiles or marbels from Italy wont make the Building Italian ???..the tiles/marbles just enhance the beauty of the facade...but dont change the basic structure/foundations etc..
 

Ambarsaria

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prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post. I have a question.
LUCKY SINGH Ji,
There are nearly 1000 Arabi /Fa{censored}e words in the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
This collection with their respective meaning is beautifully given in one of the Gurbanee Viyakaran Book by Joginder Sibgh Talwara ji.
This is just for your information.
Prakash.S.Bagga
Is the following Book specific for Vyakaran or one needs Parts 1 and 3 if such exist or they relate to "Ucharan" and "Vocabulary"?


I downloaded the above book which appears to be Part 2 and it appears good.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Sep 21, 2010
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Waheguru ji ka khalsa<?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
Waheguru ji ki fateh
<o:p> </o:p>
As I had said in my first post on ‘Gurbani Vyakaran’ earlier, the linguistic character of Gurbani is not uniform. It depends on the cultural environment of the author Guruji ji in general, particularly at the time of creating specific compositions. This also depends on the geographical location at the time of creating a composition. For instance, the Farsi shabad I analysed earlier must have been composed and sung to a Farsi speaking audience, may be in Iran or western Afghanistan. Since, the Sangat or audience of first three Guru ji must have been predominently Panjabi speakers mainly from rural Panjab, the language content of the first three Guruji is predominantly Panjabi. However, the Sangat of fourth Guruji onwards began to expand to distant cities of India, the linguistic nature of audience began to have increasing proportion of non-Panjabi speakers. We know from the first hand account of Mohsin Fani, a P{censored}e writer who stayed at Kiratpur for two years with sixth Guru ji. He mentions that in India there is no large town where there isn’t any Sikh or Sikh Sangat of the Gurus.
<o:p> </o:p>
As we see here in Japuji over 80% words of Panjabi. Contrast this with the writings of ninth Guru ji whose one of the Shabads I analysed earlier had only about 50% of Panjabi words. This is also due to the fact that ninth Guru ji spent many years in East India such as Bihar, Bengal and Assam where Panjabi alone would ‘t be helpful, Santbhasha or language of the Saints would be helpful.
<o:p> </o:p>
Given below is the analysis of Japuji vocabulary.
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Japuji Word Analysis
<o:p> </o:p>
Total Number of Words + Punctuation Marks + Stanza Count data (2539),
Total number of Punctuation marks and Stanza count figures (389),
Total number of just words (2150),
<o:p> </o:p>
Number of Panjabi words (1754, 81.2%),
Number of non-Panjabi Words (396,18.41%)
<o:p> </o:p>
Breakdown of non-Panjabi Words:
<o:p> </o:p>
Santbhasha/Hindi (288, 13.4%)
Arabic (75, 3.48%)
Farsi (23, 1.06%)
Sanskrit/Prakrit/Sahaskriti (10, 0.47%)
<o:p> </o:p>
Another important parameter in Gurbani analysis we must keep in mind is the total vocabulary in the composition. That is in a composition we might have some words mentioned only once and others repeated many times. Vocabulary estimate would be if we count a repeated word only once. This way in Japuji as given above the total number of words in the composition, is 2150 overall. However, if we count a word appearing several times as only once, then the number of words used in the composition, ie the vocabulary ins 1066.
This is nearly half (49.58%) of the total words in the composition.
<o:p> </o:p>
This vocabulary percentage figure is an important parameter to gauge the creative originality of the author Guruji. In the case of Guru Nanak Dev ji overall in Guru Granth Sahib approaches overall in the range of 70%. This is a measure of the originality and extent interaction with Sikhs and Sangats with diverse linguistic backgrounds.
The most frequent word in Japuji is the negative word ‘ ’ (repeated 66 times) others with the frequency given in parenthesis are, ਨਾਨਕ (28), ਕੋ (24), ਜੇ (23), ਅਸੰਖ (22), ਸੁਣਿਐ (20), ਕਰਿ (18), ਕੇਤੇ (18), ਜਾਣੈ (17) , ਹੋਇ (17).
<o:p> </o:p>
Humbly
Serjinder Singh
 
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Aug 29, 2010
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prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post. I have a question.Is the following Book specific for Vyakaran or one needs Parts 1 and 3 if such exist or they relate to "Ucharan" and "Vocabulary"?


I downloaded the above book which appears to be Part 2 and it appears good.

Sat Sri Akal.
Yes,AMBARSARIA Ji,
There are perhaps only two volumes available.Both volumes are worth
going thru to get better understanding of Gurbanee.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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Serjinder Singh ji thanks for your post. I have one comment.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
............ Another important parameter in Gurbani analysis ......
We sometimes become slaves to our capabilities. I understand your interest in linguistics and such. Hence your focus on "Analysis". Brother the kind of stats and stuff you posting has been done almost 60 years ago if not many decades before. I have some books from my father from those times.

I really encourage you to move on from "Analysis" to understanding. This thread is about rules of understanding and not about analysis. You may want to start your own thread in that regard if you believe it is of value.


Brother do one Shabad translation and show us the value of your understanding versus analysis. In such an endeavor I believe you can bring lot of value. This statistical stuff is cut and paste from sources as I am sure you are not counting it your self. Be true to such Authors and sources and give references.

Let us not hijack this thread into "analysis" versus "understanding".

You may want to additionally add value of understanding in the following sections,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhmani-sahib/
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sidh-gosht/
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bani-sheikh-farid/

Sat Sri Akal.
<!--?"urn::eek:
............ Another important parameter in Gurbani analysis ......[/quote]We sometimes become slaves to our capabilities. I understand your interest in linguistics and such. Hence your focus on "Analysis". Brother the kind of stats and stuff you posting has been done almost 60 if not many decades before. I have some books from my father from those times.

I really encourage you to move on from "Analysis" to understanding. This thread is about rules of understanding and not about analysis. You may want to start your own thread in that regard if you believe it is of value.


Brother do one Shabad translation and show us the value of your understanding versus analysis. In such an endeavor I believe you can bring lot of value. This statistical stuff is cut and paste from sources as I am sure you are not counting it your self. Be true to such Authors and sources and give references.

Let us not hijack this thread into "analysis" versus "understanding".

You may want to additionally add value of understanding in the following sections,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhmani-sahib/
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sidh-gosht/
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bani-sheikh-farid/

Sat Sri Akal.

Sat Sri Akal.-->
 
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spnadmin

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Serjinder Singh ji

At this point in the conversation I cannot help but ask "What is your motive?" First of all, a glossary of all words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been available for years, authored by Dr. Kulbir S. Thind, in download format. One can from this document discover all the different contexts in which a single word is used. Very helpful if one wants to understand how words acquire different meanings across different shabads. Second, how is bean-counting words relevant to understanding the shabads? I guess I am asking for a higher purpose than simply having the maths under our belt. Once we know the count, what conclusions do we draw from that? Finally, I did not realize that anyone on the planet who was a student of Guru Granth was interested in making comparisons of the creative originality of the gurus. When did the interest in a creativity pageant begin? I have my suspicions and think it may have to do with another long-standing movement to unseat the Aad Granth and give parkash to other so-called granths. Naturally they would be the winners because by the time they were written many more cultures and languages would be involved. It would seem that Guru Nanak would be the big loser in the creativity department because his message was so much salt-of-the-earth, so simple. Or No? Maybe it was Guru Angad because of his efforts to keep it simple. I think you need to explain yourself. Promise me it is not true that the more we follow your cues, the farther we get from the point of the thread, and the closer we get to beadbi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is all one Guru speaking, no one more creative or original than the other. No one is the blue ribbon winner in a creativity contest. Simply racking up category totals is not impressive nor is it convincing. A computer can do it.

Sorry but I feel it is time to get tough. Regards, spnadmin
 
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