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Sects Discussion On Naamdhari Sikhs

Apr 20, 2006
80
4
Sister Harjas Kaur

Massacres committed under the name of a religion does not make the religion bad. It's the people who commit the crimes that are bad. It's the same as saying that a human being has committed a murder, therefore condemn the whole human race! You can't do that. You musn't do that. I agree with you that those people who committed these massacres should be brought to justice, but we can't destroy our own heritage in the process. Are you telling me that because of what happened in 1984 you are prepared to let the fanatics on our side destroy our own history and culture by changing what is written, even in our most Holy of Scriptures?

I don't think the RSS is as much hell bent on making the Sikhs submit to anything as the Sikhs are hell bent in denying their own roots. It is this constant hammering that 'we aren't Hindu' which is more dangerous.

The KHALSA gained it's strength partly because during and after Guru Gobind Singhji's time every Hindu family used to enlist their first born son into the Khalsa for the defence of the Hindu Faith! READ BHAI GURDASS' (II) VAARS. We emerge from that past. We are inseperable from it.

Today, we need to work to heal wounds, not open new ones.

Satguru Jagjit Singhji sent a delegation to Delhi during the massacres in 1984 to the Congress Party; even they were attacked on the way. He didn't immediately declare war!
So I beg you time and time again to refrain from making allegations based on lies. You are being no different to the kind of people you are fighting against if you make accusations based on heresay.

Just because He is known as A 'Guru' should not automatically make him a villian, just because you believe there should not be a human Guru!

Surinder Kaurj Bhenji

You have always impressed me with your quotes from Gurbani.

i really think that all these people who are claiming to be Gurus and recieving all the honors and everthing- NONE OF THEM REALLY TRUELY COME OUT TO STOP THE MASSACRE GOING ON FREELY ALL OVER THE WORLD, THEY MUST DO SOMETHING SOMEWHERE- THAT SHOWS THAT THEY ARE THE GURUS- THE TRUE ONES.

What is the use of them being on this earth, if humanity all over is being smothered under the feet of poverty and power????????
Here you are relegating yourself too, by making fleeting statements.

Did Guru Nanak Devji stop Humanity being smothered totally? He did HIS BEST TO EDUCATE PEOPLE. BUT EVEN HIS JYOT AS GURU ARJUN DEVJI WAS MARTYRS BY TYRANTS.

It doesn't work like that.

A Satguru comes to this Earth to make individual Souls realise themselves. He washes away their sins and releases them from the eternal cycle. The Guru is eternal. He is aloof of Birth and Death. Time is meaningless to Him.

All our sufferings and pleasures are us reaping the fruits of seeds sown in past lives.

'Apai hi beej apai hi khahi..Nanak Hukami avai jahi...'

'Jin mastak dhur Hari likhia, thina Satigur milia Ram Rajae...'

The Universe is finite. Matter is recycled over and over again. And so are we. Only He knows how many cycles each Soul has weaved and what seeds it has sown over milleniums. So when the time is ripe and when the Order is scribed on our foreheads He reveals Himself to us. It is not in our power to ascertain, when.

But we can take heed from Gurbani and stop sowing bad seeds.
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
Sister Harjas Kaur

Massacres committed under the name of a religion does not make the religion bad. It's the people who commit the crimes that are bad. It's the same as saying that a human being has committed a murder, therefore condemn the whole human race! You can't do that. You musn't do that. I agree with you that those people who committed these massacres should be brought to justice, but we can't destroy our own heritage in the process. Are you telling me that because of what happened in 1984 you are prepared to let the fanatics on our side destroy our own history and culture by changing what is written, even in our most Holy of Scriptures?

I don't think the RSS is as much hell bent on making the Sikhs submit to anything as the Sikhs are hell bent in denying their own roots. It is this constant hammering that 'we aren't Hindu' which is more dangerous.

The KHALSA gained it's strength partly because during and after Guru Gobind Singhji's time every Hindu family used to enlist their first born son into the Khalsa for the defence of the Hindu Faith! READ BHAI GURDASS' (II) VAARS. We emerge from that past. We are inseperable from it.

Today, we need to work to heal wounds, not open new ones.

Satguru Jagjit Singhji sent a delegation to Delhi during the massacres in 1984 to the Congress Party; even they were attacked on the way. He didn't immediately declare war!
So I beg you time and time again to refrain from making allegations based on lies. You are being no different to the kind of people you are fighting against if you make accusations based on heresay.

Just because He is known as A 'Guru' should not automatically make him a villian, just because you believe there should not be a human Guru!

Surinder Kaurj Bhenji

You have always impressed me with your quotes from Gurbani.



Here you are relegating yourself too, by making fleeting statements.

Did Guru Nanak Devji stop Humanity being smothered totally? He did HIS BEST TO EDUCATE PEOPLE. BUT EVEN HIS JYOT AS GURU ARJUN DEVJI WAS MARTYRS BY TYRANTS.

It doesn't work like that.

A Satguru comes to this Earth to make individual Souls realise themselves. He washes away their sins and releases them from the eternal cycle. The Guru is eternal. He is aloof of Birth and Death. Time is meaningless to Him.

All our sufferings and pleasures are us reaping the fruits of seeds sown in past lives.

'Apai hi beej apai hi khahi..Nanak Hukami avai jahi...'

'Jin mastak dhur Hari likhia, thina Satigur milia Ram Rajae...'

The Universe is finite. Matter is recycled over and over again. And so are we. Only He knows how many cycles each Soul has weaved and what seeds it has sown over milleniums. So when the time is ripe and when the Order is scribed on our foreheads He reveals Himself to us. It is not in our power to ascertain, when.

But we can take heed from Gurbani and stop sowing bad seeds.
Respected veer,

first of all Universe is not finite and secondly think on a deeper level please. surface level sailing is not going to take us anywhere.....;) and thirdly please explore the SIKH HISTORY:)

forgive me please
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
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Jun 30, 2004
5,029
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Henderson, NV.
Naamdharis fail to understand is that Sikhi is NOT personality based but Idea based as mentioned before. Guru Shabad is NOT a messenger in the form of a mortal as Naamdharis believe in. Guru Shabad is a message from Gurbani.

Sikhi has always been about the message. Naamdharis know that but to admit it is not to their advantage because it would impede them to collect millions of dollars in India and abroad from their followers who have been brainwashed. Naamdhari is one more cult selling snakeoil in the name of Sikhi.

A couple of questions though:-

Do the gurdwaras of Naamdharis come under SGPC or/and DGPC management?

Are any funds from the charat and donation given to the above entities?

I hope Sikh Namdhari can put some light about the money business and how it is utilised to help Sikhi.

Tejwant
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
God is infinite, His Creation is infinite, but the Universe is finite. Just as the number of our breaths are finite. There is a balance to the Universe. Matter and Energy are linked. In nature, neither are created nor destroyed, they only change form.
Which deeper level are you thinking at, my sister?
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
VaheguruSeekrji
I love your name! :)

Throughout Mankind's history, at various times and in numerous places the Cosmic Energy, or Force or whatever name you want to understand it by; that genisis Power that Mankind calls God, has Personified itself to lead Mankind on a path.
It does not need a PhD. to work this out (well, maybe it does!). Read the Holy Scriptures of the 'Katheb'. The Holy Scriptures of the 'Ved'. Whenever Mankind wanders from the Path of Dharam, this Truth manifests itself in a Personification and walks amongst Men and Leads them.

The Prophets of the Old Testament, Jesus Christ, Hazrat Mohammed, Baavan, Krishan Bhagvaan, Ram Chander and the Lineage of Guru Nanak Devji. All of these disciplines have one common truth about God at their core: The appearance of God's Power in an Individual.

The Bhatt's in their praise of Guru Nanak Devji's Gurgaddhi have written and defined this lineage in it's Human Form. Guru Arjun Devji has endorsed their definition by including it in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.
Who are we to state it isn't so?

As I have mentioned before, GurSabad has pride of place in Gurmath and Namdhari Sikhs do not ignore it's importance, but you have to understand the WHOLE concept of Sikhi to it's Nth degree to even begin to comprehend when the Sabad becomes 'Guru'.

But we, today, are trying to comprehend and argue about the PhD's (I'm loving this analogy today!) of Sikhi when in reality we haven't even learnt the alphabet!
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
God is infinite, His Creation is infinite, but the Universe is finite. Just as the number of our breaths are finite. There is a balance to the Universe. Matter and Energy are linked. In nature, neither are created nor destroyed, they only change form.
Which deeper level are you thinking at, my sister?
ok my veer, can you tell me where the universe starts and where it ends???

Universe is God's word- UNI-VERSE.......:)

As Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib says--

Eko Kavaaoo

forgive me please
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
About your questions on monetory issues.
No, Namdhari Gurdhwaras and Dharamsalas have never come under SGPC or DGPC.

This has a very important historic significance, because the SGPC evolved out of the 'Singh Sabha' organisation whose inception was to counter the Kuka or Namdhari movemement. Even today, members of the Singh Sabha proudly state that the formation of Singh Sabha "marginalised the Namdharis" who were gaining ground in great strength amongst the Sikh masses in the later part of the 19th century.

The British were openly stating in their memoirs and correspondences that if the entire Sikh population followed this 'New' embodiment of 'Govind the warrior' ..'we can expect to be annihillated as the Mogul Empire was'. So they set upon a campaign through the established Gurdhwaras to vilify Satguru Ram Singhji. They didn't stop there. They changed the whole concept of the definition of 'Guru'. Granthis who lead Amrit Sanchars in the Army had to be trained and vetted by the British Authorities. The definition of who was a Sikh was evolved to the one preached today, when in reality the definition of a Gursikh aready exists within the pages of Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. And it is nothing like the one ordained by the 'Akaal Takhat!'
So by default one could never have come under the other's juristriction.

However, even from the times of Satguru Ram Singhji, the Gurdhwara Parbanthak Committees,no matter what name they operated under, have never declined the millions of Rupees offered by Satguruji and His Sangat to the Gurdhwaras for their upkeep. But no monies have ever been made available by the Parbandhak Committees towards the upkeep of the Gurdhwaras of Satguru Balak Singhji and beyond. Naturally.

Namdhari Sikhs visit and offer our meagre contributions to the Historic Gurdhwaras of ALL our Satguru Sahibaans. Naturally.
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
Respected Veer Ji Sikh Naamdhari Ji,

1666-1708 is Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s time on Earth in Manukhi chola

wherever I am searching for information I am finding that your satgur Ram Singh Ji founded naamdhari sect in 1857 and please correct me if I am wrong, it is more often called-Kukaas.

What happened in between-
How come Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji declared Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji(Dhan Dhan GURBANI) the next Guru and not a Living human being at that time- OR AM I MISSING A LINK HERE?????

OR all the history is wrong???

i think we need to clarify this first.

as your posts say- WE HAVE TO HAVE A LIVING GURU. Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect... i want to know who was naamdhari's guru during all these years??

forgive me please
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
Hah! Ha! Great! Bhenji!

Uni -verse! I have never seen it under that definition before!

"Latin- from 'universum', neuter of universus 'combined into one, whole', from uni- 'one' + versus 'turned' (past participle of vertere)." Courtesy: Oxford English Dictionary.

Kavaao- 'Hukam'- By the Order of. Courtesy: Mahan Kosh.

Keetha Pasaao Eko Kavaao - Created with One Order/ Command.

My understanding of finite stems from our scientific understanding of the Universe today. Finite in terms of the matter and energy it contains, for it is these two core entities that make up of what we know as the Universe. Neither of which can be recreated nor destroyed. That much has been established.

However, even the Angels (Devtas) and Great Rishi's, as per the Hukams in Gurbani, have been unable to fathom the vastness of God's creation. How can you expect me to tell you where it begins or ends?
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
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Jun 30, 2004
5,029
7,179
Henderson, NV.
Sikh Namdhari writes:

The Prophets of the Old Testament, Jesus Christ, Hazrat Mohammed, Baavan, Krishan Bhagvaan, Ram Chander and the Lineage of Guru Nanak Devji. All of these disciplines have one common truth about God at their core: The appearance of God's Power in an Individual.
Who are the prophets of the Old Testament? Can you name some?
When were the Gospels about Jesus written and by whom and do they contradict each other?

What is the lineage of Krishan ji, Ram Chander ji and Guru Nanak Dev ji?

You must have known the answers to all as mentioned them in your posts.

All the above you mentioned is personality based, nothing to do with the Sikhi as mentioned in my post above.

The Bhatt's in their praise of Guru Nanak Devji's Gurgaddhi have written and defined this lineage in it's Human Form. Guru Arjun Devji has endorsed their definition by including it in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.
Who are we to state it isn't so?
Can you pls quote the Shabads from SGGS about Bhatts and give us your interpretation that shows what you mean. Please donot COPY & PASTE the Transliteration of the shabads from the internet.

As I have mentioned before, GurSabad has pride of place in Gurmath and Namdhari Sikhs do not ignore it's importance, but you have to understand the WHOLE concept of Sikhi to it's Nth degree to even begin to comprehend when the Sabad becomes 'Guru'
.

I did not understand what you are trying to say above. Can you put them in layman's term for me?

But we, today, are trying to comprehend and argue about the PhD's (I'm loving this analogy today!) of Sikhi when in reality we haven't even learnt the alphabet![/
How did you conclude the above? Can you give me a Shabad from which you reached your above conclusion?

Waiting to learn from you.

Tejwant
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
18
1666-1708 is Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s time on Earth in Manukhi chola

wherever I am searching for information I am finding that your satgur Ram Singh Ji founded naamdhari sect in 1857 and please correct me if I am wrong, it is more often called-Kukaas.
You are correct bhanji Surinder Kaur Ji. From the Namdhari world website, they claim their "satgur" Balak Singh had a vision of still living Guru Gobind Singh in 1812 who came and bowed down to him after offering of coconut, having kept his mortal identity a secret to the sangat through all those many years of struggle, hiding like the Hindu sadhus do, waiting until he could, in person confer Gurgaddi in irresponsibly extreme elderly age (104 years after his witnessed death). They say Guru Gobind Singh told Balak Singh he was going to use him for a time and then confer Gurgaddi on Ram Singh. So even with Balak Singh, the center of stage is Ram Singh Namdhari.

Naamdharis say their "satguru" Ram Singh obtained Gurgaddi from Balak Singh. And the Panthic Gurgaddi being invested in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for all those years was a mistake, and even the witnessed and recorded death of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is a mistake. And even the witness of investiture of Gurgaddi into the ShabadGuru Maharaaj and also Panj Piaras is a mistake! Naamdharis say because of this mysterious (unproveable) conferring of Gurgaddi on Balak Singh, thus creating a new lineage of Guruship within sanatan Hindu dharam.

It is true Namdharis were founded by Ram Singh 200 years after death of Guru Gobind Singh, but this is how they explain the ridiculous lineage.

Please correct my mistakes.
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
Bhenji Surinder Kaurji

No history is wrong. Neither the one you believe, nor the one Namdharis believe.
Yours is correct because that is what you have been exposed to and the one Namdharis believe is correct because it is the one they have been exposed to.

Namdhari Sikhs are the decendants of those Sikhs to whom Guru Gobind Singhji gave Darshan to AFTER 1708 and who cannot deny his living on after that date!

History tells us that Guruji gave Darshan to two Sadhus who were collecting wood in the jungle. He was galloping full stride on His horse when they saw Him. He ordered them to go and tell the weeping Sikhs that He had not died, but was still alive and with them. Even non-Namdhari history acknowledges this much!
There is a Gurdhwara at that place today. There is also a Gurdhwara at the Fort where Guru Gobind Singhji released two imprisoned princes. This event took place many years after Naded.

Bandha Bahadhur's arrmies on many occassions saw Guruji on His horse helping them in their battles. Now some say it was his Spirit. Namdharis say it was Guruji Himself in flesh and blood.

So in answer to your question, Namdharis' (as you so eloquently put it) Guru was Guru Gobind Singhji during this time, helping His Sikhs in the way which He deemed best.

Namdhari Sikhs firmly believe that Guruji orderd His Sikhs at Naded to follow the Hukams in Gurbani, when they thought He was going to pass away and asked Him about succession to the Gurgaddhi. This is something all Guru Sahibaans have always told their Sikhs to do whether in their presence or in their absence. But it does not mean that the Gurbani Dha Granth Sahib replaced the Guruji. There was no Aadh Guru Granth Sahib at Naded that Guruji bowed before. Had there had been, don't you think that that Bir would today be the most exalted and revered? Wouldn't those Sikhs have taken this particular Guruji's Granth Sahib and placed it in a safe place as the one in front of which Guru Dasamji bowed with 5 Paysae and coconut and transfered Gurgaddhi to, as is claimed?
Noone can answer these questions 'Namdhari' Sikhs have been posing for over two hundred years!

A simple analogy is the Order a King writes to his subjects. The subjects need to respect and obey the command, but at no time does the command replace the commander King!

Aadh Guru Granth Sahib is a collection of the Commands (and praises of the Creator) of our collective Satgurujis in whom God's Power was (and still is) Glowing. Namdhari Sikhs are ordered by their Spiritual King to obey those orders to their dying breath. The Orders in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib are to follow the Orders of a Living Satguru. Either way, we win.
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
Bhen Harjas Kaurji

This lineage is no more ridiculous than when Gurgaddhi was transferred to Guru Teg Bahadhurji via Bachan Shakti by Guru Harkrishanji. "Baba vasai Gram Bakalai", and remained hidden until 'discovered' by Makhan Shahji.

Furthermore, I am so glad you are going out and researching. But, please do not restrict your research to the internet. Sites and Articles on here are only the result of modern youngsters like me (me, young? yea right!), who are still learning. There is over 200 years of history still to be discovered, which has been suppressed by Imperial 'interests'. It is there in books, artifacts, newspapers and other evidence. I can vouch for it.

Lastly, the biggest evidence is in the existance of Satguru Ram Singhji Himself.
Knowledge of His life in itself is evidence enough of who He is. What His decendent Gurus also suffered at the hands of the Imperials and their 'loyal subects' is a chapter in history worthy of it's own research.

It is not a 'Gurudom' created to "collect millions of Dollars..." . Sri Bhaini Sahib was up to 1945 a virtual prison for Satguru Hari Singhji and Satguru Partap Singhji. It was under constant police observation for 80 years!

All the buildings, including Satguruji's residence, until recently, were made out of clay bricks!
Even I remember going there and staying in a 'Katcha Kotha' in 1980!

No more than 5 Sikhs were allowed to meet Satguruji at any given time. Satguru Hari Singhji spent His entire life imprisoned!
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,029
7,179
Henderson, NV.
This lineage is no more ridiculous than when Gurgaddhi was transferred to Guru Teg Bahadhurji via Bachan Shakti by Guru Harkrishanji. "Baba vasai Gram Bakalai", and remained hidden until 'discovered' by Makhan Shahji.
Dear Sikh Namdhari ji,

Can you please give me the reference of the above happening if it occured from SGGS because what you are saying in the above Sakhi is anti Gurmat. Do Naamdharis base their Sikhi way of life on some fairy tales ( which are a dime a dozen in all religions) like the above? As Sikhs we should discard the sakhis that contradict Gurmat and only embrace those that compliment Gurbani.

I am waiting for the response for both of my posts.

Tejwant
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
Bhenji Surinder Kaurji

No history is wrong. Neither the one you believe, nor the one Namdharis believe.
Yours is correct because that is what you have been exposed to and the one Namdharis believe is correct because it is the one they have been exposed to.

Namdhari Sikhs are the decendants of those Sikhs to whom Guru Gobind Singhji gave Darshan to AFTER 1708 and who cannot deny his living on after that date!

History tells us that Guruji gave Darshan to two Sadhus who were collecting wood in the jungle. He was galloping full stride on His horse when they saw Him. He ordered them to go and tell the weeping Sikhs that He had not died, but was still alive and with them. Even non-Namdhari history acknowledges this much!
There is a Gurdhwara at that place today. There is also a Gurdhwara at the Fort where Guru Gobind Singhji released two imprisoned princes. This event took place many years after Naded.

Bandha Bahadhur's arrmies on many occassions saw Guruji on His horse helping them in their battles. Now some say it was his Spirit. Namdharis say it was Guruji Himself in flesh and blood.

So in answer to your question, Namdharis' (as you so eloquently put it) Guru was Guru Gobind Singhji during this time, helping His Sikhs in the way which He deemed best.

Namdhari Sikhs firmly believe that Guruji orderd His Sikhs at Naded to follow the Hukams in Gurbani, when they thought He was going to pass away and asked Him about succession to the Gurgaddhi. This is something all Guru Sahibaans have always told their Sikhs to do whether in their presence or in their absence. But it does not mean that the Gurbani Dha Granth Sahib replaced the Guruji. There was no Aadh Guru Granth Sahib at Naded that Guruji bowed before. Had there had been, don't you think that that Bir would today be the most exalted and revered? Wouldn't those Sikhs have taken this particular Guruji's Granth Sahib and placed it in a safe place as the one in front of which Guru Dasamji bowed with 5 Paysae and coconut and transfered Gurgaddhi to, as is claimed?
Noone can answer these questions 'Namdhari' Sikhs have been posing for over two hundred years!

A simple analogy is the Order a King writes to his subjects. The subjects need to respect and obey the command, but at no time does the command replace the commander King!

Aadh Guru Granth Sahib is a collection of the Commands (and praises of the Creator) of our collective Satgurujis in whom God's Power was (and still is) Glowing. Namdhari Sikhs are ordered by their Spiritual King to obey those orders to their dying breath. The Orders in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib are to follow the Orders of a Living Satguru. Either way, we win.
Respected Veer Ji,

one question is coming to my mind though-

HOW COME THE GURU YOU ARE CLAIMING FOR ALL SIKHS TO BELIEVE AFTER DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GOBIND SINGH JI,(i think you say whenever somewhere after 1708) left all of us(who are called Sikhs world wide) loose and did not take us in His Fold then??? NAAMDHARI SECT WAS FORMED IN 1857. SO WE WERE LEFT LOOSE ON OUR OWN FOR 150 YEARS AND NOW IN 2007 YOU ARE BEING SENT FOR OUR RESCUE??? How come this much indifference??? Our Gurus never did such a thing. They assisted even those who were not their followers....

By (a worldwide accepted) definition of Sikh Religion- Sikhs are those who believe in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Eternal Guru. If i am understanding it correct from all of your posts that this definition is wrong. We(Sikhs) cannot be Sikhs. You are Sikhs- as the thread you started also supported this-'Being Naamdhari is Sikhi'. i know Sikhi cannot survive without Naam Simran, Without naam Simran there is no Sikhi. But by definition Term 'NaamDhari' is used for a different thought scheme where Guru and Amrit Sanchar practices are totally different than mainstream Sikhi.
if you are planning to change this definition, i think you are trying to do it at an odd place.

Sikhs have no doubt about their identity. They never had, they never will.

You had been trying to clear our doubts, but unfortunately instead of clearing our doubts you are creating new history and making us even believe that all what you saying is a made up story.

i am not sure, are you trying to merge both totally different thoughts( in one of your posts you said-my Guru is yours and yours is mine) or you are trying us to believe that we all should follow your Guru???

i do not think that anybody can shop for chelas through their representatives who deny and twist others beliefs the way you are doing through each one of your posts......





forgive me please
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
18
i do not think that anybody can shop for chelas through their representatives who deny and twist others beliefs the way you are doing through each one of your posts......
These missionaries are sad. Especially when they think mainstream Sikhs are going to bow down to some dedhari old man who is a member of VHP-BJP-RSS-Hindutva, and follow him into sanatan Hindu dharam. As if for all these years our shaheeds have been dying for nothing.
OMG
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
Hah! Ha! Great! Bhenji!

Uni -verse! I have never seen it under that definition before!

"Latin- from 'universum', neuter of universus 'combined into one, whole', from uni- 'one' + versus 'turned' (past participle of vertere)." Courtesy: Oxford English Dictionary.

Kavaao- 'Hukam'- By the Order of. Courtesy: Mahan Kosh.

Keetha Pasaao Eko Kavaao - Created with One Order/ Command.

My understanding of finite stems from our scientific understanding of the Universe today. Finite in terms of the matter and energy it contains, for it is these two core entities that make up of what we know as the Universe. Neither of which can be recreated nor destroyed. That much has been established.

However, even the Angels (Devtas) and Great Rishi's, as per the Hukams in Gurbani, have been unable to fathom the vastness of God's creation. How can you expect me to tell you where it begins or ends?
Respected Veer Ji,

you are contradicting your own statement by all means. :confused:

it is ok.

Energy is not finite. Science is- all those miracles which are proved by the scientists. There are infinite number of miracles of our Master(WAHEGURU) those are way way beyond the proven facts that is considered science.

you are right, nobody can fathom the vastness of Waheguru's Creation.

forgive me please
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
These missionaries are sad. Especially when they think mainstream Sikhs are going to bow down to some dedhari old man who is a member of VHP-BJP-RSS-Hindutva, and follow him into sanatan Hindu dharam. As if for all these years our shaheeds have been dying for nothing.
OMG
Respected Bhainji,

There are many out there these days who claim that This and This Guru Appeared and told him/her to be the next Guru. i am hearing this thing again and again......

and all of them think that we will believe this. everyone who says this tries their best to make us believe in them;)

forgive me please
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
Bhenji Surinder Kaur

It seems that no matter what I say you are going to continue with your attacks. I keep telling you that:

1) I am not a missionary. My aim is NOT to even try to convert. Satguruji do not preach convertions.

2)
No history is wrong. Neither the one you believe, nor the one Namdharis believe.
Yours is correct because that is what you have been exposed to and the one Namdharis believe is correct because it is the one they have been exposed to.
Why do you keep ignoring the above statement?

The only people who seem to have a missionary agenda is yourselves!

'Being Naamdhari is Sikhi'. i know Sikhi cannot survive without Naam Simran, Without naam Simran there is no Sikhi.
I'm so pleased you have understood the meaning of my statement. This is the only meaning I intended to forward to you.

You had been trying to clear our doubts, but unfortunately instead of clearing our doubts you are creating new history and making us even believe that all what you saying is a made up story.
Who am I to 'make new history'? As I have been telling you, it is history which has been SUPPRESSED. Namdhari Sikhs aren't a 'modern cult'. Satguru Ram Singhji came at a time when Sikhi was almost extinct. Christianity was making new converts every day. What He did to resurrect Sikhi is a part of Sikh history. People who are against Namdhari Sikhs(for whatever reasons) have done their level best to keep this chapter in Sikh history hidden from the masses. Those who are intellectual and who can find it within themselves to research with an inbiased mind will and can see the truth.
If you want to believe that all of what happened after Guru Gobind Singhji in the fold of His Sikhs who are now known as Namdharis is 'made up history', then that is your freedom. But neither you nor your ancestors can be successful in eliminating this truth. It will keep rising. Saying it is 'new history' is ignorance.

But by definition Term 'NaamDhari' is used for a different thought scheme where Guru and Amrit Sanchar practices are totally different than mainstream Sikhi.

Again, Bhenji, you are twisting my words to satisfy your own agenda.
'Namdhari' term means nothing different than what it means in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. Being a Naamdhari Sikh MEANS being a Sikh who recites that Naam, Gurmanther which Satguru Nanak Devji brought into this Earth.

We believe in our Guru as per Commands given WITHIN the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.

By Amrit Sanchar, I presume you mean Khande - di - Pahul as administered by the 5 Pyarae to intiate a Sikh into the Khalsa Fold.
This is no different with Namdhari Sikhs. We are given Khande-da-Amrit, prepared by 5 Pyarae whilst reciting:

Japji Sahib

Jaap Sahib
Choupai
10 Sweyae
Anand Sahib

This is then administered to drink with 5 'Choolae', Sprinkled 5 times in the Kesh, 5 times in the eyes whilst repeating 'Wahiguru ji ka Khalsa, Sri Wahiguru ji ki Fathae' each time.

So where are the differences you keep harping on about?
If anything, Namdhari Sikhs are more rigorous in keeping these practices than our general bretheren.

i am not sure, are you trying to merge both totally different thoughts( in one of your posts you said-my Guru is yours and yours is mine) or you are trying us to believe that we all should follow your Guru???


Is Guru Nanak Devji not your Guru? Is Guru Gobind Singhji not your Guru?
If not. If only Sabad Guru is your Guru, then I admit defeat.
Say Guru Nanak Devji to Guru Gobind Singhji are not your Gurus and I will accept that we are indeed different.
For they are my Gurus.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
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Sikh Namdhari, most sincerely

You are entitled to the many opinions of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji and interpretations of history that you have expressed in the forum. But you must also accept the responsibility for understanding why so many in the forum find these ideas offensive. I would ask you to address my questions because up to this point you have misunderstood both the genius of Nanaak ji and the genius of Gobind ji.

How have you misunderstood the genius of Nanaak ji? The mool mantar contains within it the totality of Nanaak’s belief. Everything else is an elaboration. You have in several threads confounded an uncluttered understanding of this fundamental mantra. The mantar liberates all humankind from the barbarity of polythesim. The gods of Nanaak’s time, and before Nanak, in Indian, Chinese, Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Persian traditions, were accountable only to other gods who were more powerful. The relationship between gods and humans was based on appeasement and sacrifice, magic and sorcery, because these gods were not models of morality and virtue. They engaged in trickery, rape, murder, thievery and kidnapping. They were models of might makes right. Their priests were and are not much better. After all they had a direct pipeline to the deities. The mantar also liberates humans from pantheistic worship in which many gods are manifestations of a single godhead. If gods are interchangeable parts of a single experience of Atman, then who is God? Who do we worship when we worship the many in one?

Naamdhari as you describe it is a path that flirts with but does not face square on the challenge set forth by monotheism. I say this because your gurus see no problems with attendance at conferences that celebrate the one-ness of all dharma traditions, as if assimilation into a single fold were a good thing in the name of healing differences and being peacemakers. For the Sikh’s of Shabd guru (as you put it) one size does not fit all and Satgur cannot be confused with mix-and-match visions of the Creator.

If the monotheism rooted in mool mantar is taken lightly, then one has to ask how the assimilation of all dharma religions into a unified experience could possibly serve the interests of peace. I am referring to your rather blatant statements holding that anyone who disagrees that Sikhs and Hindus share a tradition that existed before Nanaak is a facist. If you say, “It is a big tent, we worship the same god.” Which one, I repeat? Can we in conscience suggest that all dharmic relgions at bottom are about the same thing. That we should heal our differences, close the gap, realize that we are brothers and sisters, and become peacemakers. This language is supposed to rid the world of differences in the belief that differences cause conflict. This language is also guaranteed to cause conflict. In striving to eliminate our unique beliefs, we risk loosing our identities-- which causes frustration, humiliation, rage, and conflict, particularly if the darker side of closing the gap and healing our differences is to further an obvious political agenda, and the peacemaker enjoys financial gain. Humans are weak, and peacemaking can and does offer opportunities for big consulting fees.

How have you misunderstood the genius of Gobind ji? Gobind Sahib ji ended the succession of human guruship by doing something truly revolutionary in the history of religion, something that has not since been repeated -- he taught us that Satguru is heard in the Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji, and he trusted his Khalsa to hear that voice without the interference or hindrance of human intermediaries. He continued the tradition of Nanaak in this deed. After anointing the 5 beloved ones, Gobind ji knelt before them, asking asked that he too be anointed. This story does not teach us that gurus should command us through scripture. To the contrary, it teaches us that even the faith of Gobind was not greater or less than the faith of the Khalsa, if they indeed are khalsa. Gobind trusted Satgur more than he trusted gurus, and he reaffirmed the importance of an intimate and personal relationship with God.

So you must answer these questions if you want to be taken seriously.

Is it righteous to hand all spiritual authority over to a guru?

Can a Sikh abandon a personal and individual relationship with God by turning control of the path to righteousness over to a human guru, and still be a Sikh?

Can a Sikh condone affiliations with individuals and groups that espouse visions of God that are essentially polytheistic, and in which various notions of god are interchangeable, and are on equal footing with one another, including the God of the Sikhs?

Can a a person stand outside of the Khalsa, believing that Gobind ji walks among us, and still be objective enough to agree that followers of Shabd guru must adhere to a path that cannot be confused with other paths to god?

Naamdari ji! Why do some find Naamdhari teachings offensive and painful? It is offensive and painful enough to be persecuted for your faith. It is even more offensive and painful to be written off by propaganda that seeks to erase what is uniquely part of Sikh identity.

siq nwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gur pRswid
Sat Naam
 
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