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drkhalsa

SPNer
Sep 16, 2004
1,308
54
Dear all and Brither Naamdhari Sikh( username here on spn)



Iam strating this thread with reluctance as it should be my Naamdhari brother who should have done for the reason best best known to him he never didi it even on my two request

My Naamdhari Fellow have some complains with the main stream sikh ( also called Shabad guru/singh sabha by Naamdhari ) these are the few I can get fronm the 35 posts that he has posted here on forum . Resr he can add further and all can contribute to it


1) According to the information given by naamdhari sikh some people of there community have faced hate and physical abuse at hands of other main stream sikh .


Our children, women and youth are being beaten, insulted and abused. Our Guru is abused and threats are being levelled towards Him. It is only by His Command that we are not retaliating. We are taught not to attack anyone, least of all our fellow Gurubhais and Bhens. We will refrain from escalating this violence. So I have turned to the net to see if there are any people of wisdom left within the Sikh community.
Written by Naamdhari Sikh


my view : Personally I have never seen it happening as first person but I still can imagine this happening where there are Radical Sikhs who are hate filled for everybody non sikhs BUT THEY DONT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY SIKH COMMUNITY AND WHAT THEY DO IS WRONG AND I KNOW MAJORITY WILL AGREE WITH ME . but this does not make all sikhs anti NAAMDHARI by default as my brither Naa dhari here thinks so this is limitation of his expereinces . personally I have naamdhari class mates in professional college an d nothin of such kind ever proped in my mind
And you message alos gives A warning tha the reason you are not retaliating is your guru,s command is that a warning or just the same violience that you claim to face from others?




2)
Under the Holy umbrella of the Aadh Sri Guru Granth Sahib you are subtly being taught to hate, you are being taught that anyone who doesn't believe the Holy Granth to be 'alive and living' is insulting the Gurujis' Granth Sahib.
( written by Naamdhari)




My view : This is very cheap little thinking or view tha you have of main stream sikh and not reality and it shows the same behaviour ou complian about that you face
ME HOLIER THAN YOU . If you r revered Staguru is teaching you Gurbani than this does not make it best interpretation and the only interpretation for all those who don’t bekieve in Your Satguru
Again all Sikhs are not taught about hate as you presume as SIKH family now number in crores and there bound to variation in character of people also diversity in people even in main stream There are many sadhus in main stream and many sikh organisation LIKE TAKSAL, Sant Sampradas and many MAHA Purush in past and present that have taught message of love and peace and not HATE AS YOU Persume for all the Sikhs

So please be open to others and for a change consider a possibility of you also being wrong somewhere as just blessing of your Satguru does not make you infallible atleast in your observations and notions




3)
Just as anyone who doesn't support Khalistan is not a Sikh?

Can there be no other perspective?
written by NaamDhari Sikh




My View:

this is very Minority view you are talking about I don’t believe in it and many others I have interacted in past three years in online interaction also doesnot believe in such radicle views

Yes there can be many other prepective and already they exist also as part of main sikh stream


4)
All of the views I have expressed on these forums are views on Sikhi that have been untarnished by the Singh Sabha movement, whose thinking was and is greatly influenced by Western European thought.

.. And first there was the WORD is a passage out of Biblical text.

To believe that your Guru is not to be distinguished different from God is an ancient Sanatan concept that comes down to us from time immemorial. The concept of Karam and 840,000 lives the soul has to migrate through was not invented by Guru Nanak Devji. Recitation of Naam was not invented by Guru Nanak Devji. These are concepts that were taught by God in the oldest language known to Mankind in the OLDEST scriptures known to mankind.

Guru Nanak Devji came to this Earth in this Kalyug age (again a Vedic concept) to refresh Mankind's memory about it's origins and truth of Dharam. That Dharam which exists since the dawn of creation. The Dharam that has it's origins in the Land we call Bharat.

Have shame when you speak of this holy land with venom in your minds. Bow your heads in honour when you speak of this land.


if any one expresses any opinion that even slightly challenges your views you come out with all your guns blazing.
written by NAAMDHARI SIKH.





My View :
In my view you also need to do some homework here . Your view of having living Guru and that also in continuity with Tenth Guru Sahibans Guru Gobind Singh ji finds no takers in any sikh groups whether they are Singh Sabha or anti Singh sabha
Many groups I would like to mention here have very independent philosophy but are all one on this issue of shabad guru with there independent source and belief
( AKALI NAIHANG SINGH BUDAADAL
AKALI NIHUNG SINGH TARUNA DAL,
NIRMALA SAMPRADHA
UDHASI SAMPRADA
SANT SAMAJ
SEWA PANTHI SAMPRADA
DAMDAMI TAKSAL

All these sampradas have many views diffrent from SINGH SABHA and even there own rehats which vary significantly BUT ALL ARE ONE ON THE ISSUE OF SAHAB GURU WITH NO LIVING GURU and all these claim there inception itself from time of SRI GURU GOBIND SINGH JI MAHARAJ and their cliam is independent of each other soYOUR CLAIM OF SINGH SABHA BRAINWASHED BY BRITISH seems Childish and even can be taken as your Brainwashing done on purpose .


ALL the conceptts you are trying to mention above about Guru parmeshwar , continuity with snatan dharm is well taught in main stream as well so don’t take p=ride in your exclusive source of knowledge as AKAL PURAKH like to have mercy on all including us even if you think us wrong!






5)Now what Amounts to be offending when talking about SATGURU



In my view :
any body calling his satuguru and bestower of enlightment is not offending even if it is Satguru of Naamdhari

Any body who wants to use verse p=artly or wholly of Sri guru granth sahib for their spirtual expansion even if it means interp=reting it with guidance of there own guru does not seems to offend me

BUT any body claiming that their guru a are the SATGUR for whole humanity ( which atleast 20 such gurus I can count on fingers )then its their heasdache to convince 6 biilins of their fellow Humans
But saying that their SATGUR are in continuity of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Lineage IS OFEENDING TO BASIC BELIEF OF MANY ON THIS FORUM AND SHOULD BE AVIODED NOW AND THEN ON THIS FORUM Instead its validity could be disscused here in this particular thread

So what would be the final solution for Namdharis? Gas chambers?



In my view : I would with all the good qualities that you and your faction have you place should be in every body heart and I don’t think that you need to change unless th AKAL P+URAKH wants so but you are most welcome to join main sream SIKHI with open arms with SHABAD Gurru as the GUIDE if it suits you

I hope this thread contuse further with inputs of all others on this forum and may help to solve some issues



Writing this many mistakes and also some of my thought might hurt somebody but believe me its noyt intentional and I stands to be corrected




Again I would say I respect cherish all sampadas including NAM DHARI for all the Good qualities and enrichment they provide to SIKHI and hop=e it increases in future






Jatinder Singh



----------------------------------------
--------
--------------------------------
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
We all have free choice to what we believe in and what path we follow.

According to the Sikh Rehat Maryada the problem with Naamdharis lies with the definition of who is a Sikh. Do Naamdharis get discriminated against? Probably. Sadly, no one should be abused for having a different belief. The problem lies with them self-proclaiming that they are Sikh and confusing the line that the Khalsa Panth has drawn. The mainstream Panth does not accept them by definition.

We could argue all day and night, with eloquence and even Gurbani. And this simple fact would not change. Naamdharis would still be followers of a lineage outside the 10 Masters. To regular Sikh, Naamdharis follow a differnt Guru, not the ShabadGuru. While Naamdharis may respect the SGGSji, they don't hold it in the same reverence as Guruji as do regular Sikhs. For a regular Sikh to matathek to any other Guru than ShabadGuruji, he is turning his back on Sikhi. So it isn't a question about who is nice or mean or a bad Sikh or full of krodh or ignorant or whatever. It is the simple definition of who is a Sikh per the mainstream Panthic organizations, and Naamdharis not a Sikh, and because they do beadbi of Sikhi by this false teaching, they are not accepted as someone of another religion is. They are pakhandis. End of story.

Chapter I
The Definition of Sikh
Ariticle 1
Any human being who faithfully believes in
(i) One Immortal Being,
(ii) Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Guru Gobind Singh,
(iii) The Guru Granth Sahib,
(iv) The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
(v) the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh.
 

jasi

SPNer
Apr 28, 2005
304
277
83
canada
DEAR NAMDHARI JI.

WHAT EVER YOU HEVE MENTIONED IN ALL YOUR CONCERNS IS TOTALLY CREATED BY THESE SO CALLED GURUS TO WHOME YOU FOLLOW.BUT WHAT HAS HEAPPENED IN ALL RELEGIONS SOME ONE TRY TO BE MORE POPULAR ONE WAY THE OTHER WITH SPREAD THIER OWN PHILOSPHY BY COPING OR JUST EASLY COPY OR STOLEN FROM THE GRANTHS OR BILBLE OR GITA AND START THIER OWN SHOWS. LIKE YOU ARE NAM DHARI SIKH. SO WHAT YOU STILL BELIEVE IN GURBANI AND GURUS

SO THERE WAS NO NEED OF RADHASWAMI OR NIRANKARI BUT THESE OFFSHOOT WERE DELIEBRATLY CREATED TO HAVE THIER OWN GROUP FOR MANY REASONS IN WHICH ONE OF THE IMPORTANT WAS RECOGNITIONS AND MONEY.

THEY ALL WERE WRONG TO LEAVE GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI AND ONE GURBANI WHICH WAS GIVEN TO ALL OF US BY BABA GURU NANAK DEV JI AND NINE FOLLOWING GURUS. WHY WE NEED MORE ALL KINDS OF NEW GURUS?. THAT IS WHERE THESE NEW GURUS CREATED A FRICTIONS AND DIFFERENCES,.

SAME THING IN MOSLIM WITH ONE PROPHET HAS SUNI KILLING SHIAT,CATHOLIC KILLING PROTESTENT AND SO MANY OTHER MAJOR RELEGION SUBDIVEDED INTO MAY. WHY BECAUSE THESE HUMAN BEING WISHESS TOO HAVE THIER OWN POPULAIRTY. GOD IS ONE AND RESPECT FOR ALL THE HUMAN BEING IS ESSENCE OF THE FAITH. EVERY ONE TEACHES THIS BUT HATERED BECAUSE THEY SPLIT FROM THE MAIN TREE.

I HOPE YOU ARE GETTING THE MESSAGE. GOOD LUCK. THE BEST THING IS TO ASK YOUR PREACHERS WHAT WAS THE NEED TO HAVE NAMDHARI WHEN THERE WAS ALREADY EVERY THING IS AVALIBLE IN GUR NANAK 'S PHILOSPHY.

JASPI



Dear all and Brither Naamdhari Sikh( username here on spn)



Iam strating this thread with reluctance as it should be my Naamdhari brother who should have done for the reason best best known to him he never didi it even on my two request

My Naamdhari Fellow have some complains with the main stream sikh ( also called Shabad guru/singh sabha by Naamdhari ) these are the few I can get fronm the 35 posts that he has posted here on forum . Resr he can add further and all can contribute to it


1) According to the information given by naamdhari sikh some people of there community have faced hate and physical abuse at hands of other main stream sikh .

Written by Naamdhari Sikh

my view : Personally I have never seen it happening as first person but I still can imagine this happening where there are Radical Sikhs who are hate filled for everybody non sikhs BUT THEY DONT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY SIKH COMMUNITY AND WHAT THEY DO IS WRONG AND I KNOW MAJORITY WILL AGREE WITH ME . but this does not make all sikhs anti NAAMDHARI by default as my brither Naa dhari here thinks so this is limitation of his expereinces . personally I have naamdhari class mates in professional college an d nothin of such kind ever proped in my mind
And you message alos gives A warning tha the reason you are not retaliating is your guru,s command is that a warning or just the same violience that you claim to face from others?




2)( written by Naamdhari)



My view : This is very cheap little thinking or view tha you have of main stream sikh and not reality and it shows the same behaviour ou complian about that you face
ME HOLIER THAN YOU . If you r revered Staguru is teaching you Gurbani than this does not make it best interpretation and the only interpretation for all those who don’t bekieve in Your Satguru
Again all Sikhs are not taught about hate as you presume as SIKH family now number in crores and there bound to variation in character of people also diversity in people even in main stream There are many sadhus in main stream and many sikh organisation LIKE TAKSAL, Sant Sampradas and many MAHA Purush in past and present that have taught message of love and peace and not HATE AS YOU Persume for all the Sikhs

So please be open to others and for a change consider a possibility of you also being wrong somewhere as just blessing of your Satguru does not make you infallible atleast in your observations and notions




3) written by NaamDhari Sikh



My View:

this is very Minority view you are talking about I don’t believe in it and many others I have interacted in past three years in online interaction also doesnot believe in such radicle views

Yes there can be many other prepective and already they exist also as part of main sikh stream


4) written by NAAMDHARI SIKH.




My View :
In my view you also need to do some homework here . Your view of having living Guru and that also in continuity with Tenth Guru Sahibans Guru Gobind Singh ji finds no takers in any sikh groups whether they are Singh Sabha or anti Singh sabha
Many groups I would like to mention here have very independent philosophy but are all one on this issue of shabad guru with there independent source and belief
( AKALI NAIHANG SINGH BUDAADAL
AKALI NIHUNG SINGH TARUNA DAL,
NIRMALA SAMPRADHA
UDHASI SAMPRADA
SANT SAMAJ
SEWA PANTHI SAMPRADA
DAMDAMI TAKSAL

All these sampradas have many views diffrent from SINGH SABHA and even there own rehats which vary significantly BUT ALL ARE ONE ON THE ISSUE OF SAHAB GURU WITH NO LIVING GURU and all these claim there inception itself from time of SRI GURU GOBIND SINGH JI MAHARAJ and their cliam is independent of each other soYOUR CLAIM OF SINGH SABHA BRAINWASHED BY BRITISH seems Childish and even can be taken as your Brainwashing done on purpose .


ALL the conceptts you are trying to mention above about Guru parmeshwar , continuity with snatan dharm is well taught in main stream as well so don’t take p=ride in your exclusive source of knowledge as AKAL PURAKH like to have mercy on all including us even if you think us wrong!






5)Now what Amounts to be offending when talking about SATGURU



In my view :
any body calling his satuguru and bestower of enlightment is not offending even if it is Satguru of Naamdhari

Any body who wants to use verse p=artly or wholly of Sri guru granth sahib for their spirtual expansion even if it means interp=reting it with guidance of there own guru does not seems to offend me

BUT any body claiming that their guru a are the SATGUR for whole humanity ( which atleast 20 such gurus I can count on fingers )then its their heasdache to convince 6 biilins of their fellow Humans
But saying that their SATGUR are in continuity of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Lineage IS OFEENDING TO BASIC BELIEF OF MANY ON THIS FORUM AND SHOULD BE AVIODED NOW AND THEN ON THIS FORUM Instead its validity could be disscused here in this particular thread




In my view : I would with all the good qualities that you and your faction have you place should be in every body heart and I don’t think that you need to change unless th AKAL P+URAKH wants so but you are most welcome to join main sream SIKHI with open arms with SHABAD Gurru as the GUIDE if it suits you

I hope this thread contuse further with inputs of all others on this forum and may help to solve some issues



Writing this many mistakes and also some of my thought might hurt somebody but believe me its noyt intentional and I stands to be corrected




Again I would say I respect cherish all sampadas including NAM DHARI for all the Good qualities and enrichment they provide to SIKHI and hop=e it increases in future






Jatinder Singh



----------------------------------------
-------- --------------------------------
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Dr. Khalsa, Jatinder ji

Your essay was in fact eloquent and thorough. It is good to read something that does not attack a different perspective, but instead analyzes that perspective in a systematic way. Before reading your information, all I had to go on came from Wikipedia and Naamdari web sites.

Thank you
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Respected all

Who can sort things out? This morning Sikh Naamdhari ji posted a message saying that he had already taken Jatinder ji's advice and had begun a thread called "Naamdhari is Sikhi". The only thread I can find is "Being Naamdhari is Sikhi" which was started back in February. Drkhalsa Jatinder Singh's recommendation was made only a week or so ago in March with the goal of getting the discussion onto a more constructive path. If "Naamdhari is Sikhi" and "Being Naamdhari is Sikhi" are the same thread then nothing has happened since February and nothing has changed. So far Sikh Naamdhari ji hasn't posted on this thread "Discussion on Naamdhari Sikhs" either. So, if I am missing an important point, I apologize sincerely. There is a good reason for starting over. A mutual exchange of ideas about Sikh identity, gurus and THE GURU, and related topics hinge on making a fresh start.

So maybe someone can sort me out?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
aad0002 writes, "A mutual exchange of ideas about Sikh identity, gurus and THE GURU, and related topics hinge on making a fresh start."

There is no mutual exchange of ideas. Naamdharis are pakhandis who follow a different lineage of gurus not accepted in Sikhi. they are not Sikhs, and because they insist to be so, they do beadbi of ShabadGuru Maharaj when they bow to dedhari guru. There is no discussion and no debate on this point.


3196_NaamdhariBadal.jpg

"satguru" Jagjit Singh Namdhari receiving paycheck from CM Badal, SAD/RSS-BJP.


Welcoming Former Hindus Back to the Fold

In the afternoon session Jagadguru Shri Vishyesh-Teertha of the Madhav Sampradaya, Sadguru Jagajit Singh of Namdhari Sikh Panth; Guru Raghavacharya of Ramanuja Panth; Buddha Bhikshu Shasan Rashmi and Shri Dhunda Maharaj of the Bhagwat Sampradaya of Maharashtra, spoke on the basic values and ideals common to all sects of the Hindu Society.
Swami Vishvesh Teertha in his brilliant and inspiring speech in Hindi emphatically dealt with the need for all the Sampradayas coming together to lead the Hindu society. He said, "We are all in one boat. If the Hindu society is to sail smoothly to its destined course ahead in future, all those who are guiding, piloting, as also those who are being led and directed must act in unison and steer this great ship of Hinduism to safety, security and prosperity. We cannot and should not quarrel amongst ourselves and pull in opposite directions."
A significant resolution adopted in this session pertained to Hindus who had renounced Swadharma, because of coercion or temptation, and said that "the pressing need of the time is the assimilation, through return back of all such people, who may desire, out of their own free will, to return to the faith of their forefathers."

Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP)

Position of VHP


Who is a Hindu: According to the Parishad, Hindus are all those who
believe,​
practice, or​
respect​
the spiritual and religious principles and practices having roots in Bharat. Thus Hindu includes Jains, Baudhhas, Sikhs and people of many different sects within the Hindu ethos.

Why would any Sikh support this position of VHP? Why is the dedhari guru of Namdharis publically in the VHP-BJP-RSS camp as representative of a "sect" of Hindu society? Why is he participating in a fascist Hindutva organization with anti-Gurmat aims? Naamdharis are clearly Hindus. This is the end of discussion.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Harjas ji,

Two weeks ago, after offering my 2 cents in another thread in which Naamdhari became intertwined with a completely different topic, I concluded that I did not have the background knowledge to make sense of the discussion and withdrew for about a week. I may need to do that again. But before I do,

Jatinder ji was offering Sikh Naamdhari an opportunity to make a fresh start because the conversation was turning into a tangled web. Was Jatinder ji taking the moral high ground, by inviting Naamdhari to debate his issues in a forum that welcomes debate? Looks like the moral high ground to me. Jatinder ji even started the new thread, after several requests that Sikh Naamdhari start the thread himself. Now we see that Naamdhari has not graced us with his participation. That should tell us something. Perhaps he does not want to have a discussion.

You on the other hand have been doing some heavy lifting by gathering evidence that doesn't favor the Naamdhari perspective. What is supposed to happen is happening-- those of us who want to be informed are being very well informed, by you. :}{}{}:

The purpose of a forum is to have a discussion, and you can see, we all can see, what in fact happened. It isn't that hard to draw a reasonable conclusion. ;)

With respect
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
by inviting Naamdhari to debate his issues in a forum that welcomes debate?

He is not debating. He is attacking Sikh belief to instill doubt in teachings of mainstream Sikhi regarding authentic Gurgaddi of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to promote dedhari lineage of "not Sikh" gurus politically involved with RSS-BJP-VHP.

Before tangled debates over issues of Gurgaddi, it must be noted this is an attack on accepted definition of Gursikhi. He does not say, "These are our positions as Namdhari." He says, "Namdhari is Sikhi." "My guru is your guru." Highly insulting positions not open to debate. Such positions make one "not a Sikh" according to Gurmat definition. Thus a Sikh could never agree to the terms. He is constantly begging for acceptance, yet in reality, his phraseology requires Sikh to become Namdhari by definition.

If you want to debate him, fine. Many resent this distorting of authentic Sikh beliefs. He does not say, "We as Namdharis believe..." You understand? This closes the debate, because his definitions are unacceptable. Sikhi is not about anyones personal opinions. If a Sikh does not already know who his Guru Ji is, how can he be a Sikh of the Guru? This is just a missionary platform promoting Namdhari gurus by undermining and confusing mainstream Sikh teaching. It is an attack on Sikhi, not a debate.

bhul chuk maaf ~ sorry to offend anyone.
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
Sat-Sri-Akaal

I am renegading on a comment I made yesterday that I would not post on this forum again after sister Surinder Kaurji deleted my reply to someone whose comments were derogatory. I was not abusive. All I did was to ask the gentleman to leave if he did not want to be educated on Namdhari Sikhism. :eek:

In Bhenji's eyes I was the guilty party because my views don't agree with hers? :unsure:

Sikhi has evolved into it's modern version. A lot of our original concepts have changed for numerous reasons. Unless we explore those changes and the reasons behind them we WILL loose and, I believe, HAVE lost the way.

Harjas Kaur is a typical example of a Sikh who has become so engrossed in her own superiority complex that I am nothing more than an agent of the 'evil forces' out to destroy Sikhi. :eek:

How facist do her statements sound? Hers aren't statements made after dilligent research. She is merely repeating the hate propoganda of people who have nothing better to do than to stir trouble.

I must admit that I do get very angry when I hear people like sister Harjas Kaur talk.
He is constantly begging for acceptance, yet in reality, his phraseology requires Sikh to become Namdhari by definition.
I am not begging for acceptance :}--}:. I was BORN a SIKH. I do not need to be accepted by anyone other than my Satguru. I am PROUD to be a Sikh of Satguru Nanakdevji through to Satguru Jagjit Singhji. I am PROUD to have learnt to read, sing Gurbani from Him. I am PROUD to have recieved His love and shelter from the corrupting forces of this Kalyug age. I do not wish to become a member of Singh Sabha or 'Guru Panth Khalsa', which are nothing more than political organisations.
Harjas Kaurji obviously does not understand what the Gurbani, as written in the Guruji's Granth Sahib, says.

My title for the post I started was deliberatlely chosen. But I can see that the message has eluded her. :hmm:

Being Namdhari does not necessarily mean you have to become the Sikh of Guru Jagjit Singhji. You can be a Christian, a Hindu, Muslim, a Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahibji and still be 'Namdhari'. In another post I have defined what being Namdhari means.
Naam - the Amrit Manthr of God's Name. Dhari - the individual who embraces it.
Guruji tells us if we don't embrace Naam then we are nothing. Our whole purpose of existance becomes as futile as that of an animal. Being Human means we have been given the opportunity to meet a Satguru, to be blessed with Naam from Him, which then we must recite according to His instruction; only then can we, through His Grace, attain salvation.
That Satguru can be anyone who is Himself at one with God. This is not a Kuka concept. It is not my concept. It's what is written in Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. If anyone wants me to quote I can. OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

'Sat Purakh jin jania, Satgur this ka Nao...' Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.
Please forgive me if I can't give you the page numbers. I haven't memorised those. Only the Gurbani.
In this verse it becomes abundantly clear that Sat Purakh and Satgur have become two seperate identities.

My original post still stands and I stand by every word I have written. I have and will give historical evidence and evidence from Gurbani to back everything I say. If people want to prove that what I say is anti Sikhi, then let them prove me wrong from Gurbani. This is a debate, not an attack on anyone. Let us not hide behind paranoidal attacks. I am not a member of the RSS. In fact I did not even know who they were until I discovered these forums!

:advocate: I AM A SIKH. I HAVE JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO EXPRESS MY VIEWS AS THE NEXT MAN/WOMAN. NOONES ALLEGATIONS ARE GOING TO DEPRIVE ME OF MY RIGHT TO BE WHO I AM.
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
I do not wish to become a member of Singh Sabha or 'Guru Panth Khalsa', which are nothing more than political organisations.

The above statement does not implement that Namdharis consider themselves outside the Khalsa as created by Guru Gobind Singhji.
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
Veer Sikh NaamDhari ji,

i am glad that you are back.

as i told you before, this concept is new, strange and confusing for many. Some people have made up their minds and have a picture painted in their minds about what a NaamDhari is, what their Guru is....

so reaction is going to be there, it does not mean, that all those people have to leave the forum who react.....

and remember yourself- you are all against the concept of Shabad Guru...

i suggest you take the criticism constructively, think about what they are saying and CLEAR THEIR DOUBTS-intead of telling them to leave.

forgive me please
 
Apr 20, 2006
80
4
Bhenji Surinder Kaurji,

Let me make one thing absolutely clear.

I and other Namdharis are not against anything written in the Gurbani of our Gurujis. I think if we are to move forward with this debate you and Bhenji Harjas Kaur need to get this into your minds.

Even though I have stated words to question the concept of 'Shabad Guru' I do not condemn it, we need to move this topic forward. The Shabad is a Very important part of Sikhi. I think we need to, as Sikhs explore it's importance and it's meaning.

I take your advice on board with full respect, and I will attempt to water down my writings. However, we also need to water down Bhenji Harjas Kaur too!;)
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
Sikhi has evolved into it's modern version. A lot of our original concepts have changed for numerous reasons. Unless we explore those changes and the reasons behind them we WILL loose and, I believe, HAVE lost the way.
Sikhi doesn't evolve and change its allegiance as to who is Guruji. Give me a break.
Harjas Kaur is a typical example of a Sikh who has become so engrossed in her own superiority complex that I am nothing more than an agent of the 'evil forces' out to destroy Sikhi.
Yes I have a lot of Haumai, and Guruji always gives me a boot to correct it. No worries in that department. As for your second sentence, let's analyze it.

You also say:
How facist do her statements sound? Hers aren't statements made after dilligent research. She is merely repeating the hate propoganda of people who have nothing better to do than to stir trouble.
And also:
I have and will give historical evidence and evidence from Gurbani to back everything I say. If people want to prove that what I say is anti Sikhi, then let them prove me wrong from Gurbani. This is a debate, not an attack on anyone. Let us not hide behind paranoidal attacks. I am not a member of the RSS. In fact I did not even know who they were until I discovered these forums!
Let's analyze these 3 statements as they concern the basic issue.
1. You are an agent of evil forces out to destroy Sikhi
2. I am a fascist without diligent research into the subject, stirring hate propaganda (in other words baseless and untrue).
3. You have historical evidence to back up what you claim. My attacks are paranoid (without fact). And you personally are not a member of the RSS and in fact did not even know who they were (lack of diligent research perhaps? How can you speak in defense of your dedhari master who is politically allied with them as can be factually demonstrated?)

Bajrang Dal is the youth wing of the VHP. It says so on the same website that says your satguru Jagjit Singh Namdhari is in alliance with. The site where he is publically lending support to political conferences of the Hindutva VHP. At that very conference he attended he is speaking as a different sect of Hinduism. The purpose of the conference was to bring people back into the Hindu fold. Do you even know who the Bajrang Dal is that your "satguru" is affiliated with, that he is named specifically as a conference participant with, and that Namdhari Radio is linked from? And you have the nerve to call me fascist.
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VHP-Bajrang Dal one of the most militant Hindutva organizations with links to terror, riots, rapes, gruesome mob murders
on the basis of racism, casteism, and religion. Who would allow their good name to be associated with them, or allow their
website to be linked from theirs or be photographed taking blood money from their parent organization RSS? Certainly not Guruji.
Are these ideologues not the murders and rapists of Sikhs in 1984? This is why I say Jagjit Singh Namdhari is a traitor to the Sikh Panth as is CM Badal.
Welcoming Former Hindus Back to the Fold
In the afternoon session Jagadguru Shri Vishyesh-Teertha of the Madhav Sampradaya, Sadguru Jagajit Singh of Namdhari Sikh Panth; Guru Raghavacharya of Ramanuja Panth; Buddha Bhikshu Shasan Rashmi and Shri Dhunda Maharaj of the Bhagwat Sampradaya of Maharashtra, spoke on the basic values and ideals common to all sects of the Hindu Society.
Swami Vishvesh Teertha in his brilliant and inspiring speech in Hindi emphatically dealt with the need for all the Sampradayas coming together to lead the Hindu society. He said, "We are all in one boat. If the Hindu society is to sail smoothly to its destined course ahead in future, all those who are guiding, piloting, as also those who are being led and directed must act in unison and steer this great ship of Hinduism to safety, security and prosperity. We cannot and should not quarrel amongst ourselves and pull in opposite directions."

Vishva Hindu Parishad

YOUTH WING - BAJRANG DAL

Vishva Hindu Parishad

My recommendation to all concerned is that they "do diligent research into the facts and agenda of evil political forces which exist and have as their aim the destruction of Sikhi."

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Vishwa Hindu Parishad
Description: To consolidate, strengthen and make invincible the global Hindu fraternity by following the eternal and universal life values based on Sanatan Dharma and work for total welfare of humanity on the basis of the unique cultural ethos of Bharatvarsha.
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Category: Hindu Organizations

Namdhari Sikh Radio
Description: Listen to Shabad Gurbani and Katha Kirtan performed by Namdhari Sikhs online, Free! Also available: Namdhari MP3s and Video clips.
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Category: Hinduism

Rashtriya Swayam Sevak
Description: A unique phenomenon in the history of Bharat in the twentieth century is the birth and unceasing growth of Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS).
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Category: Hindu Organizations

Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America - Web Links
Why is Namdhari Radio linked from militant Hindutva VHP-Bajrang Dal site as category hinduism? RSS and Hindutva are a threat to the Sikh Panth and are actively trying to infiltrate it to promote Hinduization of Gursikhi. Why deny this?
Panthic Weekly: Open alliance of RSS, Sikh Politicians and Sadhs (Part 1)

Pictures still speak louder than words. Why is your satguru receiving big money from CM Badal and the organizations he represents, RSS-BJP-VHP-Bajrang Dal-Shiv Sena? Explain with diligent research please. If you never heard of RSS before this debate, you are in no position to defend the actions of your satguru's collusion with Hindutva organizations to infiltrate Sikhi and make it subservient as a sect of Hinduism. Did he do this for blood money? Or did he have a revelation that he was head of a sect of Hindutva?
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Panthic Weekly: Badal Promises Revival of Anti-Sikh ‘Namdhari’ Cult <---See the words of Panthic Weekly? That is not my description. It is the accepted opinon of mainstream Sikhs that Naamdharis are anti-Sikh. Before you disregard Panthic Weekly, it's a safe bet to say they're better informed on the political scene than you are.
 
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Apr 20, 2006
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Sister Harjas Kaurji

Panthic Weekly is an extreme right wing newspaper. I have seen many of their reports about Namdharis in the past too. If it isn't biased, why don't it's reporters go and get statements from Sri Bhaini Sahib?

Because then they can't twist the facts to suit their own agenda, which is to keep the rift between the communities wide open.

You are right, the RSS is a right wing facist organisation, but then the Dal Khalsa, Sikh Students Federation, the Khalistan movement and others are no different. All of these organisations have the same agenda: They inspire fear and hatred amongst the masses so that they can gain political momentum.

Sri Satguru Jagjit Singhji has been a leading light over the last 60 years in bringing communities together. Balanced, unbiased leaders from ALL communities have always been flocking to Him in moments of crisis, in times of conflict and in times of peace to gain inspiration and strength so that we learn to co-exist together peacefully. Hindu organisations, Buddhist organisations, Christian organisations, Muslim organisations and 'non-Namdhari' Sikh organisations pay homage and respect to Him for His work in inspiring peace and harmony.

I know, because I have seen and heard Him at work.

Parkash Singh Badal is not presenting this cheque to Satguruji because of votes! Everyone knows that Namdharis have always voted for the Congress Party since before Independence. Badalji has always been going to Satguruji regardless of the political scenario. Just as do many other leading figures from the general Sikh fraternity. Satgurji has love for all, even His enemies.

I do not believe for one instance that Satguruji would affiliate with any organisation that preaches hate, terror or violence. Nor would anyone who has even had a second's Darshan of Sri Satguruji. The fact that His name has been linked to an organisation that promotes communal-togetherness comes as no surprise. Your statement also mentions a Buddhist organisation that was/is present in the conference. Surely, that should make you think twice about your claims.

Namdharis Sikhs are Sanatan Dharam believers, which means that we acknowledge our roots back to the time of Creation through the same route as do the rest of the Sanatan Dharam believers of Bharat. This includes the majority of Hindu believers. What this means, and this is where the confusion starts to lead to misunderstanding, is that we believe in all those things that are prevelent in Hinduism that are also condoned within the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Guru Granth Sahib.

There are many forces operating within Sikhism that are trying to reject these references and beliefs within the Granth Sahibs. I am sure you are all aware of what I am talking about.

Raag Mala, Dasam Guru Granth Sahib, references to Krishan Bhagvan, Ram Chander, Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Havan, Vedas, Satyug, Treta ,Dvapar, Kalyug, 840,000 life cycles, Avtaars. All of these and more are not only mentioned within the Gurbani, but are also venerated as well, whereas modern Sikhs are debating the authenticity of these issues. We can discuss these issues later as that would make this posting too long.
Suffice it to say at this stage that we pay respect to all these 'issues' because our Gurujis did and do. Anything they have rejected, we do.
For this reason , and this reason alone, we do not seperate our identity from that of Sanatan Dharam. So for that reason as well, it is not a surprise for Satguruji to be present at such a conference that celebrates the World's oldest civilisation and Dharam and for those organisations to Honour Him as their Guru.

REMEMBER, A TRUE GURU WILL ALWAYS WORK FOR PEACE AND HARMONY.

So, please do not restrict your 'research' to some biased article on the internet, Bhenji. Scratch underneath the surface.
 
Feb 14, 2006
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we do not seperate our identity from that of Sanatan Dharam. So for that reason as well, it is not a surprise for Satguruji to be present at such a conference that celebrates the World's oldest civilisation and Dharam and for those organisations to Honour Him as their Guru.
Like I said. Naamdharis are Hindu, nay Hindutva, since it was a VHP-BJP-RSS conference. Naamdharis are definitely NOT Sikh. (And you don't even experience shame at such a scandal.)
You are right, the RSS is a right wing facist organisation, but then the Dal Khalsa, Sikh Students Federation, the Khalistan movement and others are no different. All of these organisations have the same agenda: They inspire fear and hatred amongst the masses so that they can gain political momentum.
RSS is a pro-Hindutva militant organization which has as its aims the submission of Sikhi into the Hindu fold. Whereas, Dal Khalsa, Sikh Students federation, and the Khalistan movement were a reaction to and a defense against radical Hindutva provocation and attacks against Sikhi. I'm afraid from my viewpoint, you're definitely in the wrong camp. We are not even on the same page.

Panthic Weekly is biased toward Naamdharis for all the reasons that have previously been stated. The entire mainstream Sikh Panth is biased against Naamdharis. You have a pakhandi dedhari satguru who does beadbi of ShabadGuru Maharaaj. The only ones calling him a "satguru" are yourselves, some political sell-outs, and the Hindutva organizations. Are you starting to see the bigger picture?

You yourself acknowledge your sect is a Hindu sect. Now I'm not insulting you. But can you begin to appreciate the radical differences between mainstream Sikhi and Naamdhari viewpoints? Different Guru. Different practices. Different beliefs. Different values. Different agendas.)

So how do you justify your satguru supporting either the RSS or the Congress Party after 1984? Because you feel yourselves part of the greater sanatan hindu dharam?

Sri Satguru Jagjit Singhji has been a leading light over the last 60 years in bringing communities together. Balanced, unbiased leaders from ALL communities have always been flocking to Him in moments of crisis, in times of conflict and in times of peace to gain inspiration and strength so that we learn to co-exist together peacefully.

When you are a leading light to Hindutva organizations during the decades when Sikhs were being genocidally massacred...(words fail me. It's an unconscionable betrayal. It's the worst conceivable treason. Who can talk peace and collusion in the midst of genocide? What coward would not speak out for human rights? What kind of man is speaking for the rights of Hindutva and ignoring injustices to Sikhs? Not only is Jagjit Singh Namdhari a pakhandi, he is despicable.)

Why don't you listen to a man who the Sikh Panth respects and admires for his unwavering commitment to human rights and justice. Why don't you listen to a REAL leading light, so you can see the difference. This man did not sell out. He did not support Hindutva and turn his back on Sikhs in their hour of need. He stood up to be counted as a man of courage. He went fearlessly where the disappeared went in order to find his beloved Singhs. And he gave his life so all of us would one day be free of oppression.

Jaswant Singh Khalra's Last International Speech - Google Video<--Please watch!

If you cannot see the difference, then I am begging you with folded hands, please stop calling yourself a Sikh and smearing the name of Sikh with this sanatan hindutva dharm and oppressive political injustice. Please, I beg you. Please.
"Hindu Militancy is the only solution left for India. Let one weed grow on your lawn by tolerating it will result in more weeds until they take over healthy grass. Destroy the weeds that live in India. Kill them at their roots"
- Rohit Vyasmaan, HinduUnity.org
"Please give me a small part within human rights."
~Shaheed Jaswant Singh Khalra​
"When we made this request [to the High Court], that we don't need anything, but just
tell us which homes precious diamond you burned in which cremation ground and when."
~Shaheed Jaswant Singh Khalra​

Khalistan Zindabad! Never forget 1984!
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Shaheed Bhai Jaswant Singh Khalra arrested and disappeared in 1995.
Police witness testified he was tortured and murdered in custody.
His crime? Exposing the genocide of Sikh youth to the Indian Courts.

YouTube - 1984...NeVeRForGeT
YouTube - Sons of Guru Gobind Singh 1984 recollection
YouTube - Dedicated to the Martyrs of 1978'
YouTube - Tribute to Sikh Martyrs of 1984

"Today I read the newspaper report in which it was said, a body of fanatic Sikhs. If doing kirtan and defending the good name of our father Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes us fanatics, then we welcome the allegation. Remember, those who do not defend the grace of their father are never worthy of respect on the earth. These martyrs of Amritsar have shown us that we shall live in grace; if it is not possible, we choose to die in grace."

~Harbhajan Singh Yogi~ Dedicated to the Martyr's of 1978

"O True Guru, we will serve your everlasting Sikhi with our every word, thought and deed. We will devote our youth, wealth, and all worldly possessions to the cause of the Panth. My body, preserved since childhood will be sacrificed now the need has arisen. By continuously repeating and sincerely following Gurbani we will get rid of all our evil mindedness. If you keep your Grace, my Graceful Lord, we will sacrifice ourselves limb by limb."

~Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh Ji
"Indian regime continue to bar human rights organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch from investigating crimes against humanity committed against Sikhs by Indian state sponsored terrorism."

~Tribute to Sikh Martyrs of 1984

OVER TWENTY YEARS OF IMPUNITY IN THE WORLD'S
LARGEST DEMOCRACY AND STILL NO JUSTICE!
 

badmash

SPNer
Jan 25, 2007
139
5
Some people are too extreme. Sikhism has always been inclusive and not exclusive. It is doubly ironic that in todays world of rapidly disappearing Sikhism, there are those who believe in die hard standards. WEll good for them. But they are on a different wavelength from reality, and we all can live where and when we choose, I suppose. The attempt to separate Sikhism from Hinduism is futile, and you have to be even more ignorant of the social amalgamation occurring today in India to further that cause. As for proving the corrupt and dung like quality of the modern hindu society, that needs no proof or debate. Just visit anyplace in India, it is there to see. But to also confuse Sikhs of today as spiritually or mentally any different from their corrupting cousins, that is funny.
 

simpy

SPNer
Mar 28, 2006
1,133
126
Respected Harjas Kaur KHalsa Ji,

i really think that all these people who are claiming to be Gurus and recieving all the honors and everthing- NONE OF THEM REALLY TRUELY COME OUT TO STOP THE MASSACRE GOING ON FREELY ALL OVER THE WORLD, THEY MUST DO SOMETHING SOMEWHERE- THAT SHOWS THAT THEY ARE THE GURUS- THE TRUE ONES.

What is the use of them being on this earth, if humanity all over is being smothered under the feet of poverty and power????????

forgive me please
 

rosethorne

SPNer
Aug 13, 2005
148
1
49
New Delhi
Guru Di Baani, Guru De Gursikhs are always on the True Path. You can see whenever a misdeed occurs, Gursikh comes out to correct it. Be Gursikh First then see the change. Without steping onto the Moon you never know about the real ground facts, even America wasn't able. So go to Chak Amrit and see the real world of Our Guru.
 
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