Hinduism Difference Between Sikhi And Bhakti Hinduism

[aristotle]

What my explanation is:

The last I checked Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars are not a part of Guru Granth Sahib. Bhai Gurdas Ji sketches his Vaars to put Guru Sahiban's teachings in a sociohistorical perspective, often deriving from established cultural symbols. But what you have conveniently chosen to ignore is Bhai Gurdas's disillusionment with Sanatan Dharma and his perspective on the crumbling Indian Vedic society, as narrated in his Vaars.

In this particular piece, Bhai Sahib has tried to present Waheguru as the Panchayan (all-acceptable) expression for the all-pervading Lord, deriving from the existing cultural words for the Lord. But, that does not mean that the proper literal and implied meaning of this word be ignored. In short, the word 'Waheguru' is not a tribute to the so-called Hindu Gods.

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

Educated men from different locations in the world would always say 2+2=4 not 5 or 3. So, there is no question of Hinduism or Sikhism when talking about the goal of a man (Meeting the lord), as is written in SGGS that the sole aim of this human birth is to be one with that divine power. So the bhagats or the Gurus belonged to that Educated class and we all else are un-educated if we talk about the education that pertains to the achievement of the Goal of a man. There is no difference b/w Hinduism bhagti or the sikhi at the core, but yes the rituals are different, religions are different so the rituals are bound to be different. GURUs have talked about NAAM, BHAGATs have talked about NAAM irrespective of their Location. Chinese saints called the NAAM or SHABAD as TAU. Jesus called it WORD. I wonder what will the Saints of today be calling it.


In the end i would say it is we the humans who think about the differences , if we have been walking the path the gurus told us , we would see all as a part of that almighty , we would see everyone as one. It is easier said than done so, lets pray to the almighty to give us wisdom and his grace be upon us and we find a true saint.

 

[Harry Haller]

what seems to be being forgotten here is that Sikhism is like no other religion, it has no comparison, so attempting to say that all religions are the same and seek a common goal is false.

In my opinion Sikhism is primarily concerned with leading a truthful life and accepting the concept of Hukam, through this, one attains peace and contentment, and carries on living.

It is not a gameshow where the final prize is to meet the Lord.

 

[spnadmin]

admin note/ It is a very serious violation to assume multiple id's without specific permissions. "hm67" is a recently banned member who in the past had insulted Sikhi and Sikhs with poorly disguised questions and statements that misunderstood both Hinduism and Sikhi. Some statements are outright negations of Sikh beliefs, and others are so familiar as Hindutva creed that they are both misleading and insulting to Sikhism. Undermining Sikhism is another serious violation of TOS. Now hm67 has been banned and we won't be reading annoying and inaccurate missives for the time-being. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Reason for ban - concocting a new identity. The only reason this worked was the fact I was in the hospital for 5 days. Don't try it again soon

 

[gur_meet]

WJKK WJKF

In one of the posts Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaar has been quoted and commented upon and confusion has come.
The problem here is because of translation errors. The translator tried to connect the words with waheguru in a wrong way. The way of thinking in Yug’s is different and so the way of Naam jap was different. The words “Vavaa , Haahaa , Raaraa ,Gagaa” are references to the focus for naam jap. In satyug there was already purity in thought and sincerity. People had gyan (wisdom) so the ever presence of GOD in creation was focus in naam jap. In Dwapur yug the people were to be attracted back towards the GOD. So the focus was Hari Jap to introduce Godly love. In Treta the the sorrow became had emerged prominent so the remembrance of ever present God was focus . In kaliyug there is depravation and dis belief everywhere. So as Guru the God gives wisdom. The Shabad has emerged as Gurbani. The word Waheguru combines all the ways of Naam jap. Through gurbani jap gyan comes and with gyan the wisdom to see and feel the God’s ever presence.
Here is first the original prevalent translation :

੪੯ : ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ
ਸਤਿਜੁਗਸਤਿਗੁਰਵਾਸਦੇਵਵਵਾਵਿਸਨਾਨਾਮੁਜਪਾਵੈ।
Satijougi Satigur Vaasadayv Vavaa Visanaa Naamu Japaavai.

“In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.”
ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿਸਤਿਗੁਰਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਹਾਹਾਹਰਿਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਜਪਾਵੈ।
Duaapari Satigur Haree Krisan Haahaa Hari Hari Naamu Japaavai.
The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.
ਤ੍ਰੇਤੇਸਤਿਗੁਰਰਾਮਜੀਰਾਰਾਰਾਮਜਪੇਸੁਖੁਪਾਵੈ।
Taytay Satigur Raam Jee Raaraa Raam Japay Soukhu Paavai.
In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.
ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿਨਾਨਕਗੁਰਗੋਵਿੰਦਗਗਾਗੋਵਿੰਦਨਾਮੁਅਲਾਵੈ*।
Kalijougi Naanak Gur Gobind Gagaa Gobind Naamu Alaavai.
In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.
ਚਾਰੇਜਾਗੇਚਹੁਜੁਗੀਪੰਚਾਇਣਵਿਚਿਜਾਇਸਮਾਵੈ।
Chaaray Jaagay Chahu Jougee Panchaain Vichi Jaai Samaavai.
The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.
ਚਾਰੋਅਛਰਇਕੁਕਰਿਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜਪੁਮੰਤ੍ਰਜਪਾਵੈ*।
Chaaro Achhar Iku Kari Vaahaguroo Japu Mantr Japaavai.
When joining four letters Wahiguru is remembered,
ਜਹਾਂਤੇਉਪਜਿਆਫਿਰਿਤਹਾਂਸਮਾਵੈ॥੪੯॥੧॥
Jahaa Tay Oupajiaa Dhiri Tahaa Samaavai ॥49॥1॥
The jiv merges again in its origin.


NOW here is a probable translation after doing contemplation on actual written words and overall purpose.

“In satyug the satguru (meaning creator , God as the true knowledge giver teacher) through wa wa ( praises of the knowing presence of God in creation) on the earth the Naam jap was done.

In Dwapur the satguru through hari krishan ( one who is all attractive meaning the God towards whom one is attracted) and the word is H H so as Hari Hari the Naam jap was done.

In Treta the satgur through Ram ji (one who is source of all pleasure and present in creation) and the words R R the Ram jap was done for happiness.

In Kaliyug satgur through Nanak the Guru Gobind ( God as teacher ) the words G G the Gobind is recited. (Here the reference probably is towards Shabad Guru. Guru Nanak brought ahead gurbani for recitation of Naam)

Through all four (types of Naam jap) the awakened merged in Panchayan ( the place from which the panch shabad and five elements of creation originate)

All four words ( ways of naam jap) are made one in Waheguru mantra for jap.
So that the jeev merges with from where had earlier emerged.”

Hope this somewhat clears the confusion regarding the vaar.


As for the main topic it can be said that the ways of approach is different. The paths are different but aim in the long run is same.
As soul we have come to the earth and taken a physical body. We have chosen the sikh way and so let it be with respect towards others way of approach.

gurmeet singh

 

[spnadmin]

gurmeet singh ji

Thank you for what is -- yes -- a great clarification of the vaar. The mistranslation is widely circulated and your explanation of how the translator's point of view most likely arose is plausible to me. Your re-casting of the vaar is a particularly fine favor to SPN. Thanks for your efforts.

I took the liberty of changing the fonts to "arial" at the default size "2" so that your comments would be easier on the eye.

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

what seems to be being forgotten here is that Sikhism is like no other religion, it has no comparison, so attempting to say that all religions are the same and seek a common goal is false.

In my opinion Sikhism is primarily concerned with leading a truthful life and accepting the concept of Hukam, through this, one attains peace and contentment, and carries on living.

It is not a gameshow where the final prize is to meet the Lord.

Well sadly enough this life is a gameshow where the final prize may not be meeting the lord but yes its a game being played or shall i say we are made to play this game (by his hukam) to meet the Lord.
Guru Arjan Dev ji has clearly mentioned this in his shabad on Ang 12

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ||
This human body has been given to you
ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ||
This is your chance to meet the lord.
ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ||
Nothing else shall work.
ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ||੧||
Go to the sangat of a saadh, the company of the holy and meditate on the jewel of the Naam.

So Our gurus have clearly asked us to meditate on the naam so that we can achieve oneness with the almighty. This is our only chance as now we have the human body.

 

[Harry Haller]

Nirmaljotji

Kindly quote full shabads with relevant identification, you risk having your posts deleted otherwise, and a few lines can often look to mean something contradictory to the entire shabad.

as to your point that the Gurus have clearly asked us to meditate on the naam, could you elaborate as to how we do this?

 

[Sherdil]

WJKK WJKF

In one of the posts Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaar has been quoted and commented upon and confusion has come.
The problem here is because of translation errors. The translator tried to connect the words with waheguru in a wrong way. The way of thinking in Yug’s is different and so the way of Naam jap was different. The words “Vavaa , Haahaa , Raaraa ,Gagaa” are references to the focus for naam jap. In satyug there was already purity in thought and sincerity. People had gyan (wisdom) so the ever presence of GOD in creation was focus in naam jap. In Dwapur yug the people were to be attracted back towards the GOD. So the focus was Hari Jap to introduce Godly love. In Treta the the sorrow became had emerged prominent so the remembrance of ever present God was focus . In kaliyug there is depravation and dis belief everywhere. So as Guru the God gives wisdom. The Shabad has emerged as Gurbani. The word Waheguru combines all the ways of Naam jap. Through gurbani jap gyan comes and with gyan the wisdom to see and feel the God’s ever presence.
Here is first the original prevalent translation :

੪੯ : ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ
ਸਤਿਜੁਗਸਤਿਗੁਰਵਾਸਦੇਵਵਵਾਵਿਸਨਾਨਾਮੁਜਪਾਵੈ।
Satijougi Satigur Vaasadayv Vavaa Visanaa Naamu Japaavai.

“In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.”
ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿਸਤਿਗੁਰਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਹਾਹਾਹਰਿਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਜਪਾਵੈ।
Duaapari Satigur Haree Krisan Haahaa Hari Hari Naamu Japaavai.
The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.
ਤ੍ਰੇਤੇਸਤਿਗੁਰਰਾਮਜੀਰਾਰਾਰਾਮਜਪੇਸੁਖੁਪਾਵੈ।
Taytay Satigur Raam Jee Raaraa Raam Japay Soukhu Paavai.
In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.
ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿਨਾਨਕਗੁਰਗੋਵਿੰਦਗਗਾਗੋਵਿੰਦਨਾਮੁਅਲਾਵੈ*।
Kalijougi Naanak Gur Gobind Gagaa Gobind Naamu Alaavai.
In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.
ਚਾਰੇਜਾਗੇਚਹੁਜੁਗੀਪੰਚਾਇਣਵਿਚਿਜਾਇਸਮਾਵੈ।
Chaaray Jaagay Chahu Jougee Panchaain Vichi Jaai Samaavai.
The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.
ਚਾਰੋਅਛਰਇਕੁਕਰਿਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜਪੁਮੰਤ੍ਰਜਪਾਵੈ*।
Chaaro Achhar Iku Kari Vaahaguroo Japu Mantr Japaavai.
When joining four letters Wahiguru is remembered,
ਜਹਾਂਤੇਉਪਜਿਆਫਿਰਿਤਹਾਂਸਮਾਵੈ॥੪੯॥੧॥
Jahaa Tay Oupajiaa Dhiri Tahaa Samaavai ॥49॥1॥
The jiv merges again in its origin.


NOW here is a probable translation after doing contemplation on actual written words and overall purpose.

“In satyug the satguru (meaning creator , God as the true knowledge giver teacher) through wa wa ( praises of the knowing presence of God in creation) on the earth the Naam jap was done.

In Dwapur the satguru through hari krishan ( one who is all attractive meaning the God towards whom one is attracted) and the word is H H so as Hari Hari the Naam jap was done.

In Treta the satgur through Ram ji (one who is source of all pleasure and present in creation) and the words R R the Ram jap was done for happiness.

In Kaliyug satgur through Nanak the Guru Gobind ( God as teacher ) the words G G the Gobind is recited. (Here the reference probably is towards Shabad Guru. Guru Nanak brought ahead gurbani for recitation of Naam)

Through all four (types of Naam jap) the awakened merged in Panchayan ( the place from which the panch shabad and five elements of creation originate)

All four words ( ways of naam jap) are made one in Waheguru mantra for jap.
So that the jeev merges with from where had earlier emerged.”

Hope this somewhat clears the confusion regarding the vaar.


As for the main topic it can be said that the ways of approach is different. The paths are different but aim in the long run is same.
As soul we have come to the earth and taken a physical body. We have chosen the sikh way and so let it be with respect towards others way of approach.

gurmeet singh

IMO this is a far reach for meaning.

Vaheguru = Vah + Guru

Vah = an exclamation of wonder (wow), from Farsi.

Guru = teacher, from Sanskrit

Kirtan: "Vaho vaho, bani nirankaar hai".

 

[Abneet]

Sort of off-topic, But when someone recites Waheguru instead of Vaheguru since theres no "w" sound in punjabi alphabet is there really no difference from one letter or maybe?

 

[Nirmaljot Baidwan]

Nirmaljotji

Kindly quote full shabads with relevant identification, you risk having your posts deleted otherwise, and a few lines can often look to mean something contradictory to the entire shabad.

as to your point that the Gurus have clearly asked us to meditate on the naam, could you elaborate as to how we do this?

Here I quote the full shabad[/FONT]

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ[/FONT]||
This human body has been given to you
[/FONT]ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ [/FONT]||
This is your chance to meet the lord.
[/FONT]ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ[/FONT]||
Nothing else shall work.
[/FONT]ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ[/FONT]||[/FONT]੧[/FONT]||
Go to the sangat of a saadh, the company of the holy and meditate on the jewel of the Naam.
[/FONT]ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ [/FONT]||
Make every effort to cross over this world-ocean
[/FONT]ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ[/FONT]||[/FONT]੧[/FONT]|| [/FONT]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT]||
This life is being squandered in the love of maya.
[/FONT]ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ[/FONT]||
I have not practised meditation, self restraint, self-discipline or righteous living.
[/FONT]ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ[/FONT]||
I have not served the saadh, the holy nor have i acknowledged the Lord
[/FONT]ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ[/FONT]||
Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!
[/FONT]ਸਰਣ ਪਰੇ ਕਿ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ[/FONT]|| [/FONT]੨[/FONT]||[/FONT]੪[/FONT]||[/FONT]
O Guru, I seek your shelter, please preserve my Honour.[/FONT]
Now pertaining to the thought of how can one meditate on the Naam of the Lord, we dont have to go far away. In this very shabad guru sahib has said [/FONT]
ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ[/FONT]||[/FONT]੧[/FONT]||
Go to the sangat of a saadh, the company of the holy and meditate on the jewel of the Naam.

[/FONT]

In this shabad also we can see the use of the word saadh or the holy men. If one truly is a seeker and wants to achieve his ultimate aim in life he/she will be compelled to find a saadh, accept his sangat, see if the saadh is as per the guidelines mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and then accept the saadh as his spiritual teacher and walk the path of the saints.[/FONT]
Every man is a potential God. Be it a thief or anyone from any religion. Naam is within all of us but we need an external source of light to light this lamp or jot within our body and that external source is someone who has that lamp already lit within himself.[/FONT]
Now, we egoistic people think that who can teach us, who can show us the path, we will ourselves see the path. This is nothing but our ego which stands between the Lord and us. In another shabad guru sahib say on Ang 293[/FONT]

DELETED

The first line of this shabad say that in the company of the saints , Lord can be seen within.[/FONT]

One who has attained oneness with the almighty can guide someone else , how to be one with the almighty. [/FONT]
But to identify a true saint we can refer back to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji bears the testimony of a true saint.[/FONT]
In another shabad Fifth Guru sahib says[/FONT]

ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜਪੇ ਮਨੁ ਧੀਰੇ||੧|| ਰਹਾਓ ||[/FONT]
Chan[/FONT]ting and meditating on the Lord, the mind is held steady.[/FONT]
ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਗੁਰਦੋਉ ਮਿਟਿ ਗਏ ਭੈ ਦੂਰੇ||੧||[/FONT]
Meditating, Meditating in remembrance on the Divine Guru, one's fears are erased and dispelled. [/FONT]
ਸਰਨਿ ਆਵੈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਤਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਝੂਰੇ||੨||[/FONT]
Entering the sanctuary of the supreme Lord God, how could anyone feel grief any longer?[/FONT]
ਚਰਨ ਸੇਵ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ||੩||[/FONT]
Serving at the feet of the holy saints, all desires are fulfilled.[/FONT]
ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਏਕੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਪੂਰੇ||੪||[/FONT]
In each and every heart, the one lord is pervading. he is totally permeating the water, the land and the sky.[/FONT]
ਪਾਪ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ||੫||[/FONT]
I serve the destroyer of the sin, and i am sacrificed by the dust of the feet of the saints[/FONT]
ਸਭ ਛਡਾਈ ਖਸਮਿ ਆਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਭਈ ਠਰੂਰੇ||੬||[/FONT]
My lord and master himself has saved me completely, I am comforted by meditating on the name of the lord[/FONT]
ਕਰਤੈ ਕੀਆ ਤਪਾਵਸੋ ਦੁਸਟ ਮੁਏ ਹੋਇ ਮੂਰੇ||੭||[/FONT]
The Creator has passed the judgement and the evil-doers have been silenced and killed.[/FONT]
ਨਾਨਕ ਰਤਾ ਸਚਿ ਨਾਇ ਹਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰੇ||੮||੫||੩੯||੧||੩੨||੧||੫||੩੯||[/FONT]
Nanak is attuned to the True Naam and beholds the presence of the ever present Lord.[/FONT]


In this shabad Guru sahib has made a mention of the saints too
ਚਰਨ ਸੇਵ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ||੩||[/FONT]
Serving at the feet of the holy saints, all desires are fulfilled[/FONT]

and
ਚਰਨ ਸੇਵ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ||੩||[/FONT]
Serving at the feet of the holy saints, all desires are fulfilled[/FONT]
just like to learn mathematics or any other science we need to find a teacher of this science who himself knows of the science and can teach us the same. The first teacher(Guru) in our life was or parents who taught us walk/speak/eat. So a man needs a helping hand at every stage of life but the irony is that he thinks that he thinks that the most complex of all subjects (Spirituality/God realization) can be learnt without the help of the teacher.

 

[Sherdil]

Here I quote the full shabad[/FONT]

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ[/FONT]||
This human body has been given to you
[/FONT]ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ [/FONT]||
This is your chance to meet the lord.
[/FONT]ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ[/FONT]||
Nothing else shall work.
[/FONT]ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ[/FONT]||[/FONT]੧[/FONT]||
Go to the sangat of a saadh, the company of the holy and meditate on the jewel of the Naam.
[/FONT]ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ [/FONT]||
Make every effort to cross over this world-ocean
[/FONT]ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ[/FONT]||[/FONT]੧[/FONT]|| [/FONT]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT]||
This life is being squandered in the love of maya.
[/FONT]ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ[/FONT]||
I have not practised meditation, self restraint, self-discipline or righteous living.
[/FONT]ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ[/FONT]||
I have not served the saadh, the holy nor have i acknowledged the Lord
[/FONT]ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ[/FONT]||
Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!
[/FONT]ਸਰਣ ਪਰੇ ਕਿ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ[/FONT]|| [/FONT]੨[/FONT]||[/FONT]੪[/FONT]||[/FONT]
O Guru, I seek your shelter, please preserve my Honour.[/FONT]
Now pertaining to the thought of how can one meditate on the Naam of the Lord, we dont have to go far away. In this very shabad guru sahib has said [/FONT]
ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ[/FONT]||[/FONT]੧[/FONT]||
Go to the sangat of a saadh, the company of the holy and meditate on the jewel of the Naam.

[/FONT]

In this shabad also we can see the use of the word saadh or the holy men. If one truly is a seeker and wants to achieve his ultimate aim in life he/she will be compelled to find a saadh, accept his sangat, see if the saadh is as per the guidelines mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and then accept the saadh as his spiritual teacher and walk the path of the saints.[/FONT]
Every man is a potential God. Be it a thief or anyone from any religion. Naam is within all of us but we need an external source of light to light this lamp or jot within our body and that external source is someone who has that lamp already lit within himself.[/FONT]
Now, we egoistic people think that who can teach us, who can show us the path, we will ourselves see the path. This is nothing but our ego which stands between the Lord and us. In another shabad guru sahib say on Ang 293[/FONT]

DELETED

The first line of this shabad say that in the company of the saints , Lord can be seen within.[/FONT]

One who has attained oneness with the almighty can guide someone else , how to be one with the almighty. [/FONT]
But to identify a true saint we can refer back to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji bears the testimony of a true saint.[/FONT]
In another shabad Fifth Guru sahib says[/FONT]

ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜਪੇ ਮਨੁ ਧੀਰੇ||੧|| ਰਹਾਓ ||[/FONT]
Chan[/FONT]ting and meditating on the Lord, the mind is held steady.[/FONT]
ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਗੁਰਦੋਉ ਮਿਟਿ ਗਏ ਭੈ ਦੂਰੇ||੧||[/FONT]
Meditating, Meditating in remembrance on the Divine Guru, one's fears are erased and dispelled. [/FONT]
ਸਰਨਿ ਆਵੈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਤਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਝੂਰੇ||੨||[/FONT]
Entering the sanctuary of the supreme Lord God, how could anyone feel grief any longer?[/FONT]
ਚਰਨ ਸੇਵ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ||੩||[/FONT]
Serving at the feet of the holy saints, all desires are fulfilled.[/FONT]
ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਏਕੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਪੂਰੇ||੪||[/FONT]
In each and every heart, the one lord is pervading. he is totally permeating the water, the land and the sky.[/FONT]
ਪਾਪ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ||੫||[/FONT]
I serve the destroyer of the sin, and i am sacrificed by the dust of the feet of the saints[/FONT]
ਸਭ ਛਡਾਈ ਖਸਮਿ ਆਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਭਈ ਠਰੂਰੇ||੬||[/FONT]
My lord and master himself has saved me completely, I am comforted by meditating on the name of the lord[/FONT]
ਕਰਤੈ ਕੀਆ ਤਪਾਵਸੋ ਦੁਸਟ ਮੁਏ ਹੋਇ ਮੂਰੇ||੭||[/FONT]
The Creator has passed the judgement and the evil-doers have been silenced and killed.[/FONT]
ਨਾਨਕ ਰਤਾ ਸਚਿ ਨਾਇ ਹਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰੇ||੮||੫||੩੯||੧||੩੨||੧||੫||੩੯||[/FONT]
Nanak is attuned to the True Naam and beholds the presence of the ever present Lord.[/FONT]


In this shabad Guru sahib has made a mention of the saints too
ਚਰਨ ਸੇਵ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ||੩||[/FONT]
Serving at the feet of the holy saints, all desires are fulfilled[/FONT]

and
ਚਰਨ ਸੇਵ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ||੩||[/FONT]
Serving at the feet of the holy saints, all desires are fulfilled[/FONT]
just like to learn mathematics or any other science we need to find a teacher of this science who himself knows of the science and can teach us the same. The first teacher(Guru) in our life was or parents who taught us walk/speak/eat. So a man needs a helping hand at every stage of life but the irony is that he thinks that he thinks that the most complex of all subjects (Spirituality/God realization) can be learnt without the help of the teacher.

Doesn't this create an intermediary between you and your guru? Your interpretation of gurbani is then dependent on the intermediary person. What if they are wrong?

Can you recognize a saint when you see him? My interpretation of "saint" is someone who has truthful thinking and action.

 

[Sherdil]

Sort of off-topic, But when someone recites Waheguru instead of Vaheguru since theres no "w" sound in punjabi alphabet is there really no difference from one letter or maybe?

It starts with the letter "vava". Some people say "wawa". It makes no difference to the meaning. It's just a matter of pronunciation.

 

[Harry Haller]

Here I quote the full shabad[/FONT]

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ[/FONT]||
This human body has been given to you
[/FONT]ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ [/FONT]||
This is your chance to meet the lord.
[/FONT]ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ[/FONT]||
Nothing else shall work.
[/FONT]ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ[/FONT]||[/FONT]੧[/FONT]||
Go to the sangat of a saadh, the company of the holy and meditate on the jewel of the Naam.
[/FONT]ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ [/FONT]||
Make every effort to cross over this world-ocean
[/FONT]ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ[/FONT]||[/FONT]੧[/FONT]|| [/FONT]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT]||
This life is being squandered in the love of maya.
[/FONT]ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ[/FONT]||
I have not practised meditation, self restraint, self-discipline or righteous living.
[/FONT]ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ[/FONT]||
I have not served the saadh, the holy nor have i acknowledged the Lord
[/FONT]ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ[/FONT]||
Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!
[/FONT]ਸਰਣ ਪਰੇ ਕਿ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ[/FONT]|| [/FONT]੨[/FONT]||[/FONT]੪[/FONT]||[/FONT]
O Guru, I seek your shelter, please preserve my Honour.[/FONT]
Now pertaining to the thought of how can one meditate on the Naam of the Lord, we dont have to go far away. In this very shabad guru sahib has said [/FONT]
ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ[/FONT]||[/FONT]੧[/FONT]||
Go to the sangat of a saadh, the company of the holy and meditate on the jewel of the Naam.

[/FONT]

In this shabad also we can see the use of the word saadh or the holy men. If one truly is a seeker and wants to achieve his ultimate aim in life he/she will be compelled to find a saadh, accept his sangat, see if the saadh is as per the guidelines mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and then accept the saadh as his spiritual teacher and walk the path of the saints.[/FONT]
Every man is a potential God. Be it a thief or anyone from any religion. Naam is within all of us but we need an external source of light to light this lamp or jot within our body and that external source is someone who has that lamp already lit within himself.[/FONT]
Now, we egoistic people think that who can teach us, who can show us the path, we will ourselves see the path. This is nothing but our ego which stands between the Lord and us. In another shabad guru sahib say on Ang 293[/FONT]

DELETED
The first line of this shabad say that in the company of the saints , Lord can be seen within.[/FONT]

One who has attained oneness with the almighty can guide someone else , how to be one with the almighty. [/FONT]
But to identify a true saint we can refer back to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji bears the testimony of a true saint.[/FONT]
In another shabad Fifth Guru sahib says[/FONT]

ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜਪੇ ਮਨੁ ਧੀਰੇ||੧|| ਰਹਾਓ ||[/FONT]
Chan[/FONT]ting and meditating on the Lord, the mind is held steady.[/FONT]
ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਗੁਰਦੋਉ ਮਿਟਿ ਗਏ ਭੈ ਦੂਰੇ||੧||[/FONT]
Meditating, Meditating in remembrance on the Divine Guru, one's fears are erased and dispelled. [/FONT]
ਸਰਨਿ ਆਵੈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਤਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਝੂਰੇ||੨||[/FONT]
Entering the sanctuary of the supreme Lord God, how could anyone feel grief any longer?[/FONT]
ਚਰਨ ਸੇਵ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ||੩||[/FONT]
Serving at the feet of the holy saints, all desires are fulfilled.[/FONT]
ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਏਕੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਪੂਰੇ||੪||[/FONT]
In each and every heart, the one lord is pervading. he is totally permeating the water, the land and the sky.[/FONT]
ਪਾਪ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ||੫||[/FONT]
I serve the destroyer of the sin, and i am sacrificed by the dust of the feet of the saints[/FONT]
ਸਭ ਛਡਾਈ ਖਸਮਿ ਆਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਭਈ ਠਰੂਰੇ||੬||[/FONT]
My lord and master himself has saved me completely, I am comforted by meditating on the name of the lord[/FONT]
ਕਰਤੈ ਕੀਆ ਤਪਾਵਸੋ ਦੁਸਟ ਮੁਏ ਹੋਇ ਮੂਰੇ||੭||[/FONT]
The Creator has passed the judgement and the evil-doers have been silenced and killed.[/FONT]
ਨਾਨਕ ਰਤਾ ਸਚਿ ਨਾਇ ਹਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰੇ||੮||੫||੩੯||੧||੩੨||੧||੫||੩੯||[/FONT]
Nanak is attuned to the True Naam and beholds the presence of the ever present Lord.[/FONT]


In this shabad Guru sahib has made a mention of the saints too
ਚਰਨ ਸੇਵ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ||੩||[/FONT]
Serving at the feet of the holy saints, all desires are fulfilled[/FONT]

and
ਚਰਨ ਸੇਵ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ||੩||[/FONT]
Serving at the feet of the holy saints, all desires are fulfilled[/FONT]
just like to learn mathematics or any other science we need to find a teacher of this science who himself knows of the science and can teach us the same. The first teacher(Guru) in our life was or parents who taught us walk/speak/eat. So a man needs a helping hand at every stage of life but the irony is that he thinks that he thinks that the most complex of all subjects (Spirituality/God realization) can be learnt without the help of the teacher.

in my experience of this forum, such posts are generally an introduction to some fake Sadhu or Baba, now your not going to disappoint me are you?

 

[spnadmin]

harry ji

I don't think your worries are justified. There are enough misleading reconstructions of the shabad that the observation one should depend on a holy person to be one's guide falls flat on its face.

One who has attained oneness with the almighty can guide someone else , how to be one with the almighty.
But to identify a true saint we can refer back to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji bears the testimony of a true saint.

The shabads simply do not support this point of view. For example

ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ||੧||
Go to the sangat of a saadh, the company of the holy and meditate on the jewel of the Naam.

"saadh" in ths instance does not refer to a "holy" man woman person. The phrase "sangat of a saadh" is not supported grammatically. In fact it can be left out of the translation without changing the meaning of the tuk, and is a redundancy inserted for poetic emphasis.

There is one example like this after the other in the quoted shabads. Someone with a lot of energy could go through each one and point them out.

Meanwhile I am going to remove Punjabi verses without translations and Ang numbers.

 

[spnadmin]

sherdil ji

Thanks for decoding the meaning of VAHEGURU. However, I think you missed an important element of gur_meet singh ji's explanation. He is actually demonstrating how an anacrostic of letters - example, RARA - became part of the vaar. They are there as focal points for thinking. By mistakenly linking them to the surrounding words a completely nonsensical rendering of the vaar's meaning surfaces.

So gur_meet ji is not taking a "far reach" but showing how a "far reach" or perhaps literalmindedness became part of the drinking water in understanding the nature of Waheguru. That is what went viral and many stopped thinking about the meaning of the vaar, which in translation adopted a strangely Vedic meaning in spite of the fact that so many of the vaaran that were to follow are non-Vedic, reject Vedicism --- so often so many became fixated on irrelevancies.

The Waheguru discussion should not btw divert this thread. Thanks.