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Hinduism Difference Between Sikhi And Bhakti Hinduism

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Hinduism Difference Between Sikhi And Bhakti Hinduism

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Sat Sri Akal everyone,

I was recently wondering if any here can please explain to me differences between Sikhi of our Gurus and Bhakti (e.g. Kabir, Namdev, Ravidas etc...). What are philosophical differences between what Gurus taught and message of the Bhaktis? There is lot of Bhakti Bani in SGGS ji so are they very similar?

WJKK, WJKF!
 

Harry Haller

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Sat Sri Akal everyone,

I was recently wondering if any here can please explain to me differences between Sikhi of our Gurus and Bhakti (e.g. Kabir, Namdev, Ravidas etc...). What are philosophical differences between what Gurus taught and message of the Bhaktis? There is lot of Bhakti Bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so are they very similar?

WJKK, WJKF!
I am no expert, but I would imagine that the Bhaktis would not have made it into the SGGS unless they were consistent in message. I am sure the Gurus only included those works that agreed with Sikhi.

I imagine Kabir, Namdev and Ravidas wrote much that was not consistent, that can be found outside of the SGGS
 

Ambarsaria

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Sat Sri Akal everyone,

I was recently wondering if any here can please explain to me differences between Sikhi of our Gurus and Bhakti (e.g. Kabir, Namdev, Ravidas etc...). What are philosophical differences between what Gurus taught and message of the Bhaktis? There is lot of Bhakti Bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so are they very similar?

WJKK, WJKF!
Let us check the proposition.

What is common between human beings? A lot and no matter what they believe.

In terms of Bhakti-Hinduism and Sikhism let us dissect.

Bhakti-Hinduism =====> Contemplative-Hinduism

  • This will be (I am no expert) people going beyond the rigid walls of Hinduism erected by the ruling Brahmins and the basis thereof whether Vedas, Ram-Sita-Rawan fables, the Directorship of Brahma-Vishnu-Krishna-etc., and so on
  • How far they climb these walls and move towards Sikhism thought will determine the closeness
  • If they simply sit on the walls and straddle, then they are like half-pregrant and in la-la land
    • This subject has come up at spn in terms of people claiming to be Hinduism-Sikhism adherent
      • That is not a possibility
    • Sikhism does not accept the Hinduism approach to be able to fully describe creator-creation (say Vedas)
    • Sikhism does not accept intermediaries or go between that connect us to creator-creation (say Hinduism Brahmins, Brahma, Vishnu, etc.)
Sikhism=====> Bhakti-Sikhism=====> Contemplative-Sikhism

  • Contemplation is encouraged as a means to understand or seek understanding
  • Understanding is the focus and means to achieve understanding is not
    • Hence people can try to rip-apart Sikhism with various fads and styles but it has no standing in true Sikhism
      • Akhand Kirtini Jatha; this or that Baba; this or that Sant; etc.
        • It is all meaning less and simply exploitive
Sat Sri Akal.
 

Sherdil

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Bhakti Hinduism and Sufi Islam both deal with the mystical aspect of love and devotion for the creator.

They stand on common footing. They both believe in a single creator, and they both believe that love trumps caste, creed, religion, ethnicity, etc.

The Gurus utilized Sufi and Bhakti teachings to show Hindus and Muslims that they have more in common than not.

Sikhi differs from Bhakti Hinduism in that Sikhi does not give any importance to the Hindu religious texts. Moreover, Sikhs do not revere the Hindu devtas, nor do they partake in Hindu rituals or festivities.

Similarly, Sikhi differs from Sufi Islam in that Sikhs do not give importance to the Prophet Muhammed, nor do they read the Koran. We do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do we observe the daily activities governed by Sharia.
 

sanj007

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Let us check the proposition.

What is common between human beings? A lot and no matter what they believe.

In terms of Bhakti-Hinduism and Sikhism let us dissect.

Bhakti-Hinduism =====> Contemplative-Hinduism

  • This will be (I am no expert) people going beyond the rigid walls of Hinduism erected by the ruling Brahmins and the basis thereof whether Vedas, Ram-Sita-Rawan fables, the Directorship of Brahma-Vishnu-Krishna-etc., and so on.
Interesting how a number of bharmins are deemed to put up walls, is this wishful thinking on part of some, or what is true basis of Sanatran Dharma, now let us see summary of Sanatan Dharma-Hinduism real name:
 

sanj007

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Last few verses of Rig Veda which summaries essence of what it takes to understand divine message of Vedas:
The last Sukta of Rigveda (10.191) summarizes the whole essence of what humans should do to imbibe the Vedas. The entire Vedas have to be understood in context of this Sukta which emphasizes on the most differentiating trait of human beings - unity - in purpose, method and approach. Here is a summary list of the dictates of Vedic religion in this Sukta:

Rigveda 10.191.2
- walk together in the path of truth without bias, injustice and intolerance
- talk to each other to enhance knowledge, wisdom and affection without malice and hatred
- keep working together to enhance knowledge and bliss
- follow the path of truth and selflessness as exemplified by noble people

Rigveda 10.191.3
- Your analysis of right and wrong should be unbiased and not specific to particular set of people
- You should organize together to help everyone enhance their health, knowledge and prosperity
- Your minds should be devoid of hatred and should see progress and happiness of all as one's own progress and happiness and you should only act for enhancement of happiness of all based on truth
- Work together to eradicate falsehood and discover truth
- Never ever deviate from path of truth and unity
 

sanj007

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Next we come to spiritual equality:

In The Bhagawad Gita, sloka 20, Chapter 10, Lord Krishna says,

"I am the Self seated in the heart of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of all beings". All beings have, therefore to be treated alike. "

Again in the Bhagawad Gita, sloka 29, Chapter 9, Lord Krishna says,

“I look upon all creatures equally; none are less dear to me and none more dear. But those who worship me with love live in me, and I come to live in them.”
An enlightened person (by perceiving the Lord in all) looks at a learned and humble priest, an outcast, even a cow, an elephant, or a dog with an equal eye. (5.18)
 

sanj007

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Then we come to environment:

Environment:
Om dyou shanti, antricksham shanti; prithvi shanti.
Aapa shanti; aushadhaya shanti; vanaspathaya shanti;
brahama shanti sarvam shanti; shantireva shanti;
shanti sama shantiredhi
- Yajur Veda 36.17
May the sky be peaceful; May the atmosphere be peaceful; May the Earth be peaceful; May waters be peaceful; May the medicinal herbs be peaceful; May all plants be peaceful; May all the devas be peaceful; May the creator of the Universe be peaceful; May all be peaceful
 

sanj007

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Then we have gender equality:

God, in Hinduism, is neither male nor female and neither is the individual soul. Female aspect of the God is called Prakriti, as she balances out the male aspect of God called Purusha.
There are female and male forms of God, e.g. Shiva (male) and Shakti (female).
Durga mata (Invincible) is a very powerful female aspect of God.
The idea of equality was most forcibly expressed in the Rig Veda (Book 5, hymn 61. verse 8): The commentator explains this passage thus: "The wife and husband, being the equal halves of one substance, are equal in every respect; therefore both should join and take equal parts in all work, religious and secular."
Yajur Veda 20.9 : "There are equal rights for men and women to get appointed as ruler."
 

sanj007

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Karma yoga-Working without attachments to the fruits of the actions ie selfless service ie sewa.

This will help to lead to the end game of Sanatan Dharma, and that is Moksha-merging with All pervading God.

Jai Mataji (note did not say jai pappa ji)
 

Ambarsaria

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Dogra ji thanks for your posts. I appreciate you sharing from the source and trust that you are doing so with diligence. I find the following post spiritually wonderful in its essence and style of prose. Thank you.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/42225-difference-between-sikhi-and-bhakti-hinduism.html#post196431


In another post, parts excerpted below you refer to the concept of equality and I quote,
The idea of equality was most forcibly expressed in the Rig Veda (Book 5, hymn 61. verse 8): The commentator explains this passage thus: "The wife and husband, being the equal halves of one substance, are equal in every respect; therefore both should join and take equal parts in all work, religious and secular."
Yajur Veda 20.9 : "There are equal rights for men and women to get appointed as ruler." http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/42225-difference-between-sikhi-and-bhakti-hinduism.html#post196434
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/42225-difference-between-sikhi-and-bhakti-hinduism.html#post196434
Taking it in the context presented what is your comment regarding the following,

  • Women as wives asked to immolate (sati) themselves at the loss of their husband and not the men!
  • Men allowed to marry more than one woman at the same time and women not allowed!
  • Percentage of female priests in Hinduism is minimal while the percentage of women doing chores behind temples is huge!
  • History will show very few female rulers anointed versus male!
Perhaps these are deviations from original teachings but practicality and execution at times is more valid an assessment versus the book of rules. Dogra ji may be these are all deviations from scriptures, how could such develop and be purveyed for centuries if not supported by the religious leaders in Brahmin class?


It is not my purpose to put one religion on a pedestal versus the other but I want to learn.

I excerpt another passage below from your other post,
“I look upon all creatures equally; none are less dear to me and none more dear. But those who worship me with love live in me, and I come to live in them.”
An enlightened person (by perceiving the Lord in all) looks at a learned and humble priest, an outcast, even a cow, an elephant, or a dog with an equal eye. (5.18) http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/42225-difference-between-sikhi-and-bhakti-hinduism.html#post196432
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/42225-difference-between-sikhi-and-bhakti-hinduism.html#post196432
You may want to note that Sikhism and teachings differs from Sanatana Dharma in that what you state “….. those who worship me with love live in me, and I come to live in them.”, is not agreed to in Sikhism. The creator is in all irrespective of worship, actions, etc. Only the level of realization differs from one to another and consequently the aspects of living based on such understanding vary from one to the other. Sikhism teaches one to maximize such understanding of creator and creation and live there by in consonance.


I appreciate your clarifications and comments.


Regards.
 

sanj007

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Ambarasiaji,

Anothr point, Hinduism is a pluralistic faith:
RV 1.164.46
Truth is one , though sages know it by different names.

Taking it in the context presented what is your comment regarding the following,
Women as wives asked to immolate (sati) themselves at the loss of their husband and not the men!
Men allowed to marry more than one woman at the same time and women not allowed!
Percentage of female priests in Hinduism is minimal while the percentage of women doing chores behind temples is huge!
History will show very few female rulers anointed versus male!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/42225-difference-between-sikhi-and-bhakti-hinduism-2.html
There is no sati in Vedas:
(RV 10.18.8)
Rise, come unto the world of life, O woman — come, he is lifeless by whose side thou liest. Wifehood with this thy husband was thy portion, who took thy hand and wooed thee as a lover.[131]
Women priests:
Seventeen of the seers to whom the hymns of the Rig Veda were revealed were women — rishikas and brahmavadinis. They were Romasa, Lopamudra, Apata, Kadru, Vishvavara, Ghosha, Juhu, Vagambhrini, Paulomi, Jarita, Shraddha-Kamayani, Urvashi, Sharnga, Yami, Indrani, Savitri and Devayani. The Sama Veda mentions another four: Nodha (or Purvarchchika), Akrishtabhasha, Shikatanivavari (or Utararchchika) and Ganpayana.
Vedic scriptures are the basis, u can comment on history, but that does not change Vedas
 

sanj007

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In The Bhagawad Gita, sloka 20, Chapter 10, Lord Krishna says,
"I am the Self seated in the heart of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of all beings". All beings have, therefore to be treated alike. "

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/42225-difference-between-sikhi-and-bhakti-hinduism.html
This is in response to :
You may want to note that Sikhism and teachings differs from Sanatana Dharma in that what you state “….. those who worship me with love live in me, and I come to live in them.”, is not agreed to in Sikhism
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/42225-difference-between-sikhi-and-bhakti-hinduism-2.html
The points are different. Do noble deeds, more you become more linked with the divine, anmd as per BG 10.20 God pervades all, so accpet all beings as fellow beings.

Please note, have no interest in showing differences in other faiths compared to Hinduism. Simply respect other faiths as taught by my faith.
Regards
 

spnadmin

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spadmin note: We have in the last 24 hours a number of posts providing a detailed summary of "Hinduism" as interpreted by forum member dogra ji. These were offered to "correct" what he perceived to be errors.

Let me remind posters, including dogra ji, but others as well, that the topic of this thread is not about Hinduism per se. It asks for a comparison of Sikhi with Bhakti Hinduism.

That means that any further posting about the basics of Hinduism or Sanatan dharma, without the comparative points, will be deleted. Otherwise, the poster will be 'off topic' and spamming the thread. Bhakti Hinduism will be ignored. And, the thread will be yet another re-hash of wrong-thinking about Sikhi. Thank you.
 

Sherdil

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The most obvious difference is probably social. Gurbani is written in Punjabi, which the local population can understand. Bhakti Hinduism still relies on Hindu scripture written in Sanskrit. Therefore, a scholarly class is still needed to dictate its teachings to the masses.

My understanding is that Bhakti Hinduism is just a different interpretation of the same Hindu scriptures. There are Hindu schools of thought that read the same scripture and disagree with what Dogra ji has said.

Sikhs have different interpretations of gurbani, but at the end of the day they are studying gurbani, and not the vedas. This puts Sikhism and Bhakti Hinduism in their own respective spheres.
 

spnadmin

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Sat Sri Akal everyone,

I was recently wondering if any here can please explain to me differences between Sikhi of our Gurus and Bhakti (e.g. Kabir, Namdev, Ravidas etc...). What are philosophical differences between what Gurus taught and message of the Bhaktis? There is lot of Bhakti Bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so are they very similar?

WJKK, WJKF!

This was the original post and clearly the intent of the question takes its context from the Bhakti movement of northern India, from about the 12 to 14th Cantury. We are straying. Let's us return to this question.
 

sanj007

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Fair enough, but issue is also that hinduism does get tagged with incorrect items, and scriptures, reconcile back to main point.\
Those with open mind will question what does not reconcile, and why does it not reconcile.

Hinduism is based on Holy vedas, Sikhism on holy guru granthji.
 

Ambarsaria

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I find the following summary article very well written and perhaps a good summary specific to the topic. I cannot authenticate the information included in it but just sharing. I have italicized and colored what I consider key nuggets.

==============================================================
http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/bhakti.html

The Bhakti Movement -
800 A.D - 1700 A.D.


Bhakti movement in Medieval India is responsible for the many rites and rituals associated with the worship of God by Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs of Indian subcontinent. For example, Kirtan at a Hindu Temple, Qawalli at a Dargah (by Muslims), and singing of Gurbani at a Gurdwara are all derived from the Bhakti movement of medieval India (800-1700). "The word bhakti is derived from Bhakta meaning to serve, honour, revere, love and adore. In the religious idiom, it is attachment or fervent devotion to God and is defined as "that particular affection which is generated by the knowledge of the attributes of the Adorable One." The concept is traceable to the Vedas where its intimations are audible in the hymns addressed to deities such as Varuna, Savitra and Usha. However, the word bhakti does not occur there. The word occurs for the first time in the Upanisads where it appears with the co-doctrines of grace and self surrender." ( Heritage of the Sikhs, Harbans Singh)
Bhakti movement spawned into several different movments all across North and South India. In North India, Bhakti movement is nonethless not differentiable by a Sufi movement of Shia Muslims of Chisti fame. People of Muslim faith adopted it as a Sufis while Hindus as Vaisanava Bhakti. Sufi saints of Chisti order produced first punjabi sufi saint named Baba Sheikh Farid Shakarganj, who paved the way for the punjabi nationalism as well as brought peace among Hindus and Muslims. " In the north the cult was essentially Vaisnava-based, but instead of being focussed on Visnu, it chose to focus itself on Vishnu's human incarnations, Rama and Krisna, the respective avatars or deities central to the two epics Ramayana and Mahabharata. For bhakti now Visnu's incarnations ( Rama and Krisna) were the direct objects of devotion. Adoration of the devotees was focussed on them in association with their respective consorts: Slta with Rama; and Rukmini, his wedded wife, or Radha, his Gopika companion, with Krisna. Images of these deities and their consorts installed in temples were worshipped. The path of bhakti was not directly accessible to the lower castes; for them the path of prapatti (unquestioned self-surrender) was prescribed. Singing of Bhajans and dancing formed an important part of this worship. The dancers were deva-dasis (female slaves of the deity) inside the temple, but nagar-badhus (public wives) outside. Apart frorn being overwhelmingly ritualistic, the worship tended to be intensely emotional." (Heritage of the Sikhs, Sardar Harbans Singh)

Followers of Bhakti movement in twelveth and thirteenth Century included the saints such as Bhagat Namdev, and Saint Kabir das who insisted on the devotional singing of praises of lord through their own compositions. Since Bhakti movement was started before Guru Nanak, many historians have implied that Sikhism as started by Guru Nanak was nothing more then a Bhakti movement of Punjab. This is totally wrong and is against the basic Sikh virtues of equality of humans and worship of one God. There is no doubt that Sikh Gurus adopted the singing of devotional songs in praise of lord from Bhakti but there is a huge difference between Bhakti, sufiism and Sikhism. Although Sufi and Bhakti saints are revered and recognized by Guru Granth Sahib but they do not form the main basis of Sikhism. Sikhism lay emphasis on equality of Male and Female, good work ethic and as well as leading a good virtuous married life, which is Maya according to many Bhakti and sufi saints. Thus although Sikhs revere saints such as Bhagat Namdev, Bhagat Kabir and Sheikh Farid, but the ultimate Guru (or teacher) of a Sikh is Guru Granth Sahib which include about 10% of the verses of these Saints.

As a famous Sikh author says "Sikhism undoubtedly accepted some of the aspects of radicalized bhakti, and admitted some of its practices into its own ordained set. It did lay down spiritual love as the way to the deity, but the deity to be worshipped was neither Shiva nor Vishnu nor even any of their incarnations, nor any of the gods or goddesses of the Hindu pantheon. It was the One and the Only God, the Lord of Universes who was at once transcendent (nirguna) and immanent (saglma). Although immanent in his Creation He was yet apart from it, being its Creator. Since He in he real in the world that He had created, the world could not be considered unreal or illusionary (mithya or maya). It was real and sacred ("the abode of the True One"). It is therefore blasphemous to renounce it in quest of God. "He that is immanent in the Universe resides also within yourself. Seek, and ye shall find" (ee, 695). Renunciation of the world as a spiritual pursuit thus stood totally rejected. Celebacy was no longer countenanced, either. Full participation in life in a spirit of 'detachment' was prescribed instead. "Of all the religious rules and observances grihasthya (the homestead) is supreme. It is from here that all else is blessed" (Guru Granth Sahib, 587). Guru is paramount in bhakti as well as in Sikhism.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

  1. Copyright © Daljeet Singh And Kharak Singh "Sikhism, Its philosophy and History"
  2. Copyright © Daljeet Singh "The radical bhagats"

=======================================================

Hope it is in line with the thread and adds to the dialog.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

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