Islam Creation In Islam

[Astroboy]

Bulleh Shah in Islam is more practical and outright about the uselessness of Islamic rituals. See this:-
YouTube - Baba Bulleh Shah - Sher Miandad Khan - Raaz Dhiya Gallan

 

[carolineislands]

Muslims believe several things that obligates them to hate other religions and their believers. One, they believe they have the one and only truth -- period. They believe that everyone in the world that has ever lived since Mohammad that is not a strictly practicing Muslim is going to Hell -- period. They believe that Muslims are the only innocent human beings in the world and that the Quran only says it is a sin to kill "innocents." They believe that "Islam will dominate the world."

They don't have respect for other religions because they believe all other religions are lies and the tools of the "Shaytan." They don't have respect for other people because they believe other people are not innocent and therefore not worthy of respect. "Kill them where ever you find them" says their prophet of anybody in the world that believes another religion. They believe in "original sin" as do all the Abramic beliefs. And so the point you make about newborn babies is of no meaning to them because they believe babies are born sinful (except Muslim babies who can only become sinful if they grow up and turn from Islam).

I am having a discussion with a friend of mine who believes that people are incapable of leaving their religion because their religion is part of them... it is in their cellular makeup, so to speak. I see her point in that a heavily indoctrinated religion that forbids ideas and critical, independent thinking can form the minds of it's followers. When you try to understand why a Muslim doesn't respect other religions it's because you DO respect other religions AND other people, which is exactly why you don't understand the Muslim. Because you're not wired like that.

Being that indoctrinated and zombified by illogical dogma takes a lot of years, a lot of fear, a lot of brain washing. And I don't think anybody that is not brainwashed can ever understand it.

Maybe you should be glad you don't!

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Religion is a virus

 

[kay]

Could the Arabs in the desert see an expanding universe?
This is another ignorant claim. The verse mentions vastness & not expansion.
Here is the relevant verse:
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
So all the translation mention it as vast. This is no science because standing in deserts of arabia when one looks at sky he sees the vastness of sky extending from one end to another. Vastness of sky is visible to anyone & it doesnt amounts to any scientific proof.

Could the Arabs in the desert see that all living things are made from water?
Hmm good question but as far as i know first human-i-e Adam was created from dust. There was no water used in his creation & we all came from Adam only so where's the role of water in bringing humans up?

We are aware that the level of oxygen at high altitude is reduced, the further up we go. In fact mountaineers when climbing Mount Everest have to wear oxygen masks just before they reach the top.
He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies
Here again Mr.Aziz presents to us a superficial observation as if it contains some great knowledge. The fact that we feel constriction of our chest as we climb mountain is very superficial. Anyone who has ever climbed on mountain will know this that his chest constricts as he moves upwards. This constriction is caused by lack of oxygen but nowhere the author of the verse mentions this fact. He simply states that the chest will be constricted which is again an commonly observable phenomenon with no science in it. And another thing to look at is the author mentions constriction as an example as if people already knew how it feels when chest is constricted while climbing. So another claim goes down the drain.

And Allah has created every animal from water
You mean evolution or what?

There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you
Wrong there are many animals that dont live in communities like humans.

if you read the verses properly,

YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

it says "create" it is a present tense word, meaning that it is happening now.
Vastness means something enormous. So when the Quran says "it is we who create the vastness in space", means the heavens are being made bigger, or it is expanding. its exactly the same meaning as expanding! So the older translations even say that the universe is expanding. expanding simply means to make bigger. it says create, not created, meaning that Allah is creating the vastness in space, vastness means somthing enourmous, so creating the vastness is the same meaning as expanding it!

 

[carolineislands]

What is reallly amazing is the expanse the Islam apologist's mind will reach across to try to support the unfounded claims that there is some sort of advanced scientific knowledge in the Quran.


I wish the people who are trying to prove the Quran with science would realize that your religion is your faith and faith can't be proven either to be true or not true. That's why it's faith.

I myself would be much more inclined to listen to someone who was telling me that Islam was a wonderful religion because of what it has done for them in their life. The "scientific" arguments (like the blood clot story) just make the whole belief system look bad because of the blatant errors in them. But someone telling you why they love their religion and how it has enriched their lives is often very compelling.

 

[spnadmin]

I am taking a close look at this thread. Our request that you debate the Issue, not the Person, and in this case, all Muslims, needs to be taken seriously. Please modify your own posts if possible. This is a heads-up, not a warning yet, and it is addressed to all participants in the thread.

 

[carolineislands]

Bulleh Shah in Islam is more practical and outright about the uselessness of Islamic rituals. See this:-
YouTube - Baba Bulleh Shah - Sher Miandad Khan - Raaz Dhiya Gallan

Isn't music haram?

Would anyone care to interpret some of what he is singing? Some of us only have English. :2:

 

[kay]

What is reallly amazing is the expanse the Islam apologist's mind will reach across to try to support the unfounded claims that there is some sort of advanced scientific knowledge in the Quran.


I wish the people who are trying to prove the Quran with science would realize that your religion is your faith and faith can't be proven either to be true or not true. That's why it's faith.

I myself would be much more inclined to listen to someone who was telling me that Islam was a wonderful religion because of what it has done for them in their life. The "scientific" arguments (like the blood clot story) just make the whole belief system look bad because of the blatant errors in them. But someone telling you why they love their religion and how it has enriched their lives is often very compelling.

you cant belive in something because you were told or just brought up in it. this is irrational, we as humans have an intellect or the ability to ask why and find answers. friend no offense learn some critical thinking.

 

[kay]

Muslims believe several things that obligates them to hate other religions and their believers. One, they believe they have the one and only truth -- period. They believe that everyone in the world that has ever lived since Mohammad that is not a strictly practicing Muslim is going to Hell -- period. They believe that Muslims are the only innocent human beings in the world and that the Quran only says it is a sin to kill "innocents." They believe that "Islam will dominate the world."

They don't have respect for other religions because they believe all other religions are lies and the tools of the "Shaytan." They don't have respect for other people because they believe other people are not innocent and therefore not worthy of respect. "Kill them where ever you find them" says their prophet of anybody in the world that believes another religion. They believe in "original sin" as do all the Abramic beliefs. And so the point you make about newborn babies is of no meaning to them because they believe babies are born sinful (except Muslim babies who can only become sinful if they grow up and turn from Islam).

I am having a discussion with a friend of mine who believes that people are incapable of leaving their religion because their religion is part of them... it is in their cellular makeup, so to speak. I see her point in that a heavily indoctrinated religion that forbids ideas and critical, independent thinking can form the minds of it's followers. When you try to understand why a Muslim doesn't respect other religions it's because you DO respect other religions AND other people, which is exactly why you don't understand the Muslim. Because you're not wired like that.

Being that indoctrinated and zombified by illogical dogma takes a lot of years, a lot of fear, a lot of brain washing. And I don't think anybody that is not brainwashed can ever understand it.

Maybe you should be glad you don't!

ok let me show how indoctrinated, illogical, foolish, brainwashed you are about Islam. You said "Kill them where ever you find them" says their prophet of anybody in the world that believes another religion."

Answer:
A few selected verses from the Qur’an are often misquoted to perpetuate the myth that Islam promotes violence, and exhorts its followers to kill those outside the pale of Islam.
1. Verse from Surah Taubah
The following verse from Surah Taubah is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality:
"Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, polytheists, kuffar) where ever you find them."
[Al-Qur’an 9:5]
2. Context of verse is during battlefield
Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriqs of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says:"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 9:5]
This verse is quoted during a battle.
3. Example of war between America and Vietnam
We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: "Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them". Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.
4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battle
Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, "Kill the Mushriqs where ever you find them", during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.
5. Shourie jumps from verse 5 to verse 7
Arun Shourie is one of the staunchest critics of Islam in India. He quotes the same verse, Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 in his book ‘The World of Fatwahs’, on page 572. After quoting verse 5 he jumps to verse 7 of Surah Taubah. Any sensible person will realise that he has skipped verse 6.6. Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer
Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer to the allegation that Islam promotes violence, brutality and bloodshed. It says:"If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."
[Al-Qur’an 9:6]
The Qur’an not only says that a Mushriq seeking asylum during the battle should be granted refuge, but also that he should be escorted to a secure place. In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?
This is exactly what Allah (swt) says in the Glorious Qur’an to promote peace in the world.




why do people like you spread lies about Islam? Why are you so afraid that you have to result to lies? seems like you cant handle the truth.

You said that Islam do not promote idependant critical thinking. Are you using your independant thinking skills. can you proove to me your religion is the correct one, you say that God doesn't mind whataver religion you are from, did God say this? bring your proof if you are truthful, I challenge you.

 

[carolineislands]

you cant belive in something because you were told or just brought up in it. this is irrational, we as humans have an intellect or the ability to ask why and find answers. friend no offense learn some critical thinking.

Okay, go ahead and continue to try to convince people that Islam is a good religion because the Quran has some sort of scientific fact. Call it critical thinking if you like, but the problem is that the evidence you are using to promote the truth of your religion is fallacious. So, if that is the evidence you are asking people to use to logic out whether or not Islam is true, you are only weakening your case.

What I am trying to show you is that using weak and/or fallacious arguments to prove the validity of your religion is only going to convince people that your religion must be as fallacious as the evidence you are providing. I have heard these supposed proofs so many times I can practically recite them in my sleep and there is not a single one of them that could not be assumed by simple observation at the time of the writing of the Quran.

Therefore, the use of these "evidences" is just working against you. If you were using critical thinking you would have figured this out already. And if your goal is to prove the validity and worth of Islam, then why do you continue to use methods that accomplish the opposite?

Presenting a fallacious argument doesn't convince anybody of anything except that the argument is fallacious. Most people will go ahead and make the assumptiong that since the argument is fallacious, the supposition that it is supposed to support must also be fallacious.

Why not use methods that people can't really argue with and that are more compelling and thus achieve your goal of presenting Islam in a postitive light? Tell us what Islam means to you in your life. Talk about the things it does for you that make your life richer and more meaningful. Explain things that people can't argue with and that are not fallacious, like the beauty that you see in your religion. Tell us how it has changed you life for the better. That would be much more compelling and would be MUCH more likely to achieve your goal than presenting a bunch of commonplace observations and trying to pass them off as proof that Islam is the only truth. You can't use erroneous statements to proove the truth of anything. It's like trying to stop something burning by throwing gasoline on it.

But you are free to do and think as you wish, of course. Which might be another concept you are unfamiliar with but you will find it often on a Sikh forum.

 

[carolineislands]

can you proove to me your religion is the correct one, you say that God doesn't mind whataver religion you are from, did God say this? bring your proof if you are truthful, I challenge you.

I cannot assume to speak for all Sikhs but as for myself and how I understand Sikhi, a Sikh is not compelled to provide any proof of Sikhi since we believe that it is up to every individual to practice their own faith and worship God in the way that God has chosen to reveal himself to that individual. I would not argue for you to follow my faith as I am not God and do not know how he has chosen to reveal himself to you. Nothing that God says to one individual can ever be proven because no belief system provides observable data. You cannot see God or measure God or limit God, although many of us try, and that effort is called a religion.

I no longer feel a need to stuff God in a little box as though he can be owned by one religion or another. I'm starting to see, by the grace of the True Guru, that no human being can define God, no religion owns him -- he is and always will be beyond time and space and so far beyond the abilities of the human mind to perceive that we can't even really understand the concept of something so expansive and yet exists in the heart of every human being, rich or poor, black or white, male or female, gay or straight, Sikh or Catholic, young or old, short or tall, wise or foolish, ...

Why would I be so foolish as to think I (or any other human being) could ever explain or prove God? The SGGS says, whoever thinks they can should go ahead and try. I already know I can't. Neither can you.

That's why we try to put God in a little box that we can understand and hold and we try to own him and claim that we are the only ones that know God because we have him in our little box. Then we call that our religion.

Religion is a belief and, true or not, it cannot be proven or disproven and never will as a belief system has no observable data.

There are no limits on God -- only on our own minds.

 

[kay]

Okay, go ahead and continue to try to convince people that Islam is a good religion because the Quran has some sort of scientific fact. Call it critical thinking if you like, but the problem is that the evidence you are using to promote the truth of your religion is fallacious. So, if that is the evidence you are asking people to use to logic out whether or not Islam is true, you are only weakening your case.

What I am trying to show you is that using weak and/or fallacious arguments to prove the validity of your religion is only going to convince people that your religion must be as fallacious as the evidence you are providing. I have heard these supposed proofs so many times I can practically recite them in my sleep and there is not a single one of them that could not be assumed by simple observation at the time of the writing of the Quran.

Therefore, the use of these "evidences" is just working against you. If you were using critical thinking you would have figured this out already. And if your goal is to prove the validity and worth of Islam, then why do you continue to use methods that accomplish the opposite?

Presenting a fallacious argument doesn't convince anybody of anything except that the argument is fallacious. Most people will go ahead and make the assumptiong that since the argument is fallacious, the supposition that it is supposed to support must also be fallacious.

Why not use methods that people can't really argue with and that are more compelling and thus achieve your goal of presenting Islam in a postitive light? Tell us what Islam means to you in your life. Talk about the things it does for you that make your life richer and more meaningful. Explain things that people can't argue with and that are not fallacious, like the beauty that you see in your religion. Tell us how it has changed you life for the better. That would be much more compelling and would be MUCH more likely to achieve your goal than presenting a bunch of commonplace observations and trying to pass them off as proof that Islam is the only truth. You can't use erroneous statements to proove the truth of anything. It's like trying to stop something burning by throwing gasoline on it.

But you are free to do and think as you wish, of course. Which might be another concept you are unfamiliar with but you will find it often on a Sikh forum.

Ok I kind of understand where you are coming from, reason logic or facts dont appeal to you. But that doesn't make an argument fallacious or weaker, if so how? I really dont get you. You want to know peoples spiritual experiences after entering Islam, here are a few:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.=

You can easily see just on that site alone that it is mainly ladies who revert to Islam.

Here is a great example to many youngsters, this guy used to be a millionaire:

YouTube - Napoleon

This guy was orignally from the Outlawz, used to rap with 2 pac, see how he feels now after entering Islam and leaving the music industry becauas of it.
bye

another great example is cat stevens, he too used to be a millioaire.

Yusuf Islam | Cat Stevens Website

Yusuf Islam : Mountain of Light

there are many many stories I can bring to you. I can also tell you about my experiences if you want. We muslims cannot lie about our religion.

 

[carolineislands]

Actually logic does appeal to me. What I'm telling you is that what you are doing is not working. It is, in fact working against you. So, why not try doing something that WILL work if you really want to achieve your goal.

Another hint: personal attacks are fallacious arguments. They don't get you anywhere either and shed a negative light on the religion you are representing.

Okay, so I for one would like to hear your personal experiences. I would love to hear what Islam does for you and what you love most about it. How does being a Muslim play out in your day to day living?

 

[jasi]

Very intresting topic which has been used by the preachers or interpretors as they understood from the scriptures.

Basic understanding is that we always forget that NO ONE CAN SPEAK(HUMAN BEINGS) ABOUT THE CREATOR,NO ONE CAN SUPPOSE OR CREAT HIS EXISTANCES, that is the end of it. iT IS LIKE A RIVER TALKING ABOUT THE OCEAN . WHEN RIVER EMERGES INTO THE OCEAN AFTER LONG JOURNEY BECOMES OCEAN AND LOOSES ITS IDENTITY (NAME) TOO

His contineous appreciateion and feeling His existance each time we breath is the biggest evidence of His existances. Do good deeds according to our messanger's teaching who came in all the faith .

We are all come from one LIGHT and we will go back to emerge in the same light.Do not forget that there are numberless other living creatures exist and goes the same way .They express their existance for all others in their own ways.

jaspi

 

[kkk]

Originally Posted by kay
can you proove to me your religion is the correct one, you say that God doesn't mind whataver religion you are from, did God say this? bring your proof if you are truthful, I challenge you.

Yes god said so. He said to me so last night. Now prove me wrong ,I challenge you.

 

[dalbirk]

These comments r by Mr. V Phool , so with due regards to him I'm posting it there " Political correctness (politeness = political)-politeness doesn't mean freedom. Sikh are conditioned to be polite, as they are by hundishataani movies, every male actor is mulsim, whilst have you ever heard of muslim actresses. This image projects falling in love with a muslim man is natural, challenging you to break taboos, and go against your free will. Love conquers all, but does any muslim ever change their religion for love or allow you to keep yours. Political correctness is when a person tells you that religion is not important to them but expect you to convert because they are afraid of their parents, so are you really their love, or their parents come before you-- and are you so unloved by your parents. Ask yourself, if you disrespect them they might not speak to you for a while but they won't kill you, can you say the same for muslim honour killings. People who are afraid they don't truly love -- if you must be with a muslim, and they start the relationship with telling you that they love you, they will die for you. Then ask them to do something simple change their religion to prove how much they love you, before the relationship begins -- you will get your answer, whether they love you or are using you to get 72 virgins in after life, that is what they are promised if they convert someone to their faith -- that is called - TAAQUIA ".

 

[gurinder pal singh]

Dear Friend

Sometimes I wonder to read and hear why muslims are after people of other religions to convert them.If their religion is so great why they feel insecure, their insecurity can be seen that every muslim is always trying to prove that Islam is best and its God's own religion. If it is so then they should not feel insecure and should not misuse their enegry to convert others to Islam rather to meditate in the name of God. one more thing why Islam is best and others not??
I CAN SAY THIS IF ANY MUSLIM SAYS THAT OTHER RELIGIONS ARE NOT GOOD THEN THEY ARE NOT GIVING RESPECT TO GOD, BECAUSE ALL RELIGION IN THIS WORLD ARE FLOURISHED WITH THE WILL OF GOD.

So my muslim brothers and sisters stop kidding and beating around the bush try to understand that whatever is going in this world is with the will of Almighty God. He has created each and everything including all other religion as well as HIndus Sikhs and others. So try to pay attention to respect other religions. What kind of muslim you are, it seems you are confused with your own religion thats why you Contradict your own Islam by not respecting other religions. I am saying this because according to your Koran when God made first human he odered all angels to bow before his creation all did but one angel didnot bowed, then God said to that angel get out from here because you insulted me by not bowing before my creation. so my friends my point is dont you think you all are insulting God by not respecting his creations ( all religion are created by the will of God)

keep cool and read wat i have written and try to understand wat hell your people are doing

Ok I kind of understand where you are coming from, reason logic or facts dont appeal to you. But that doesn't make an argument fallacious or weaker, if so how? I really dont get you. You want to know peoples spiritual experiences after entering Islam, here are a few:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.=

You can easily see just on that site alone that it is mainly ladies who revert to Islam.

Here is a great example to many youngsters, this guy used to be a millionaire:

YouTube - Napoleon

This guy was orignally from the Outlawz, used to rap with 2 pac, see how he feels now after entering Islam and leaving the music industry becauas of it.
bye

another great example is cat stevens, he too used to be a millioaire.

Yusuf Islam | Cat Stevens Website

Yusuf Islam : Mountain of Light

there are many many stories I can bring to you. I can also tell you about my experiences if you want. We muslims cannot lie about our religion.

 

[Dzokhar]

Namastay, Susriacal, Salam, Sholam, Whassup

LOL Gurinder.

Sorry my friend im not laughing at you but this situation is very absurd. I mean are YOU seriously telling Muslims to respect the religion of others? Im quite aware of the some what blood filled history that Muslims and Sikhs have in the Indian Sub continent. Im also aware that one side blames the other for starting the bad blood (no pun intended) between you two groups and Im sure by the the time you read this either yourself or one of your Sikhi bredren will run their little finger over the keyboard to tell me how it was them bad old muzlimz that started this which will lead to a response from one of the arm chair jihaddist we have lingering here and will push this thread into a completely different direction. So before you (or anyone else) waste your time I dont care. I dont care about your history. And i dont give a flying toss who started it.

But you people should care because whatever happened 300 or so year ago under whatever Mughal emperor and which ever 'rebelious' leader (Guru) caused the ethnic cleansing we saw during the partiton of your beloved hinudstan where the main perpetrators (for killing, rapes, Massacres and general destruction of property) were non other then the God believing and 'religion respecting' Sikhs and Muslims. And the funny thing is that these events even effect you people today. I mean all you have to is take a cyber stroll through this forum and see how religion respecting Sikhs are towards Muslims. The general impression I get is you would rather kill your daughters then see them run off with a some '****'. Not is the very notion only attacked but the very person who dared introduce the idea as if reading the very words are satuarting your souls. Thats real respectful my friend. And all you have to do is click back a few pages to see how your brethren are being so respectful on this very thread. Go ahead knock yourself out mate.

I dont want you to get me wrong Gurinder, This is not an attack on you. I just couldnt help but point out the irony in your post to the Muslim community. My advice: people that live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones

My solution: A David Cameron inspired:

'Hug a Muslim Day' for Sikhs outside the Gurdawara on Sunday.

'Hug a sikh Day' for the Muslim outside the Mosque on friday Afternoon.

Sponsered by Dzokhar- bringing Waheguru and Allah closer together.

 

[Singhvj]

Does it not bother you that God only informed the Arabs 1400 years ago (through the Quran) instead of those at the very beginning of creaton, on how the universe was created?

The same goes for all religions that came long after the first.

It is like buying a new car with the manual to come years later.

Here read something sensible for a change.

Regards,
Vj

 

[Astroboy]

Are you talking about the sun god of egypt as the first pagan religion or Hinduism?