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'Begging' In Gurbani

Ishna

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So, in a thread about prayer, Admin ji, Lucky ji and I took a short detour about 'begging'. The detour started here (for the really curious SPNers :grinningkaur:).

Anyway, long story short, I said:
Ishna said:
The kind of begging I'm talking about isn't physical begging from people or as an outward display but a silent begging in your heart and mind, a yearning, a wishing, to be closer to Guruji. That's also the impression I get from Gurbani.
And Admin ji said:
spnadmin ji said:
I see both types of begging as the same thing. Why beg for something you already have? In a sense it is a confession that one has forgotten what one has already received. That makes ardas for me in part a matter of finding not begging. Finding = simran = remembering what is already there.
Admin ji also suggested that Vedic/Christian overtones in the translation might be skewing the impression in English. Here's an example where the idea of begging makes an appearance:

From Ang 321
ਪਉੜੀ
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਸਭੇ ਵਸਤੂ ਕਉੜੀਆ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਉ ਮਿਠਾ
Sabẖe vasṯū ka▫uṛī▫ā sacẖe nā▫o miṯẖā.
All material things are bitter; the True Name alone is sweet.
ਸਾਦੁ ਆਇਆ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਜਨਾਂ ਚਖਿ ਸਾਧੀ ਡਿਠਾ
Sāḏ ā▫i▫ā ṯin har janāʼn cẖakẖ sāḏẖī diṯẖā.
Those humble servants of the Lord who taste it, come to savor its flavor.
ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਵੁਠਾ
Pārbarahm jis likẖi▫ā man ṯisai vuṯẖā.
It comes to dwell within the mind of those who are so pre-destined by the Supreme Lord God.
ਇਕੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਦੁਯਾ ਕੁਠਾ
Ik niranjan rav rahi▫ā bẖā▫o ḏuyā kuṯẖā.
The One Immaculate Lord is pervading everywhere; He destroys the love of duality.
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮੰਗੈ ਜੋੜਿ ਕਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਤੁਠਾ ॥੧੩॥
Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||
Nanak begs for the Lord's Name, with his palms pressed together; by His Pleasure, God has granted it. ||13||



So, what does 'mangai' in the above mean? Does it mean 'to beg' in the literal sense of begging, and is this a thought pattern we should be encouraging in our minds?

Please Lucky ji, Admin ji, feel free to add if you think I've left anything out.

Many thanks.
 

spnadmin

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Re: "Begging" in Gurbani

ishna ji

You raise an important question. There is a lot to consider in the answer. Take a look at three translations of the same couplet in Guru Granth Sahib, from Ang 107

translation of Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa


ਜਾਚਿਕੁ ਜਾਚੈ ਸਾਧ ਰਵਾਲਾ ॥
Jācẖik jācẖai sāḏẖ ravālā.
I am a beggar, begging for the dust of the feet of the Holy.

ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੩੮॥੪੫॥
Ḏėh ḏān Nānak jan māgai saḏā saḏā har ḏẖi▫ā▫ī jī▫o. ||4||38||45||
Servant Nanak begs for this gift: let me meditate on the Lord, forever and ever. ||4||38||45|


translation of Bhai Manmohan Singh


ਜਾਚਿਕੁ ਜਾਚੈ ਸਾਧ ਰਵਾਲਾ ॥
Jācẖik jācẖai sāḏẖ ravālā.
The beggar asks for the dust of the feet of the saints.

ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੩੮॥੪੫॥
Ḏėh ḏān Nānak jan māgai saḏā saḏā har ḏẖi▫ā▫ī jī▫o. ||4||38||45||
Serf Nanak, prays Thee, O Lord! for the grant of this gift, for ever and aye he may continue meditating on Thee.


Fascinating is that Dr. Gurbachan Singh Talib goes out of his way to avoid any mention of the word "beg." He translates the couplet (page 220 of his English translation


This mendicant for dust of the feet of the holy makes prayer.
Nanak! They servant thus supplicates. On Thee may I ever meditate!


Though a mendicant begs, the word carries a different connotation from the word 'beggar."


One thing I notice is that Guruji makes a deliberate choice of "Jachai" for "beg" when referring to the literal "beggar" or "jachik" and by contrast uses "magai" when speaking directly to Waheguru


I don't think the meaning of "magai" can be got at by literal versus contextual comparisons and contrasts. Even a literal translation might lead to more than one meaning for "magai" "beg." Perhaps the answer comes when one takes in the main idea of the shabad as viewed by a particular translator, the philosophy each translator injects into the translation.

Right now I am unable to do that. However a few more comparisons might make the reasons behind the translations clearer.
 

spnadmin

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Re: "Begging" in Gurbani

For the quotation you posted from Ang 321


Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa


ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮੰਗੈ ਜੋੜਿ ਕਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਤੁਠਾ ॥੧੩॥
Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||
Nanak begs for the Lord's Name, with his palms pressed together; by His Pleasure, God has granted it. ||13||

Bhai Manmohan Singh

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮੰਗੈ ਜੋੜਿ ਕਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਤੁਠਾ ॥੧੩॥
Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||
With folded hands Nanak asks for God's Name, which by His pleasure the Lord has
granted unto him.

Dr. Gurbachan Singh Talib (page 670, English translation)

Nanak with folded hands seeks devotion to the Lord. Thus shall He grant, should He be so pleased.
 
Oct 21, 2009
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It is slightly difficult to explain the meaning of words of Punjabi. There can be more than one meaning and in that case context shall decide the precise meaning.
It has been explained by spnadmin in her posts as above.

The verb form of the word is derived from 'Mangana'. Its literal meaning is to ask for.
'Mangai' is the word derived from 'Mangana'.

I sum up the nearest equivalents of Mangai as follows:

1. To ask for
2. to pray for -context to decide the meaning or usage.
3. to make a demand for something - context to decide.[Income Tax officer demanded the Tax
4. to call for something- context to decide the usage
5. to make a request -context to decide the usage.
6. to beg for something

In the various Tuks given by spnadmin, 'begs for' should fit in. There is difference of shades only and context shall always decide the meaning.

Hope it would be useful.
 
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Ishna

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Ask for.. pray for... beg for.. they conveying the same sentiment.

The only translation which is different is the one by Dr Talib, who still 'seeks' for something to be 'granted' to him.

Nevertheless it is asking for that which we don't yet have. Hanji?
 
Nov 14, 2008
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Ishna ji
So, what does 'mangai' in the above mean? Does it mean 'to beg' in the literal sense of begging, and is this a thought pattern we should be encouraging in our minds?
ya mangai means "to beg","to ask" . acc to my understanding of Gurmat its should be encouraged .

"Aaath pehar kar jor raho tau bhete har rai ri ".
 

spnadmin

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Now here is the problem that rises from this for me, directed to anyone and everyone. If begging is asking for something we do not have and Guru Nanak begs, as in


Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||
Nanak begs for the Lord's Name", with his palms pressed together; by His Pleasure, God has granted it. ||13||
does this raise questions?
Does it mean that Guru Nanak is begging because he has not yet enshrined the Naam within, and thus asks for it because he needs it?

Does it also mean that it is OK to ask for a silver Mercedes Benz or a male grandchild in ardas?

This is perplexing and is the reason why I asked about begging in the other thread. If we are settled in Hukam, why then beg. We have what we need. There has to be a way to understand whether "begging" always rises from an unmet need, or a seeking for something that is missing. Is it OK to beg for some things and not others? Does it make sense for Guru Nanak to beg as long as he begs for Naam?

I raised a similar question in SOTW regarding the word "cursed."
 

spnadmin

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ya mangai means "to beg","to ask" . acc to my understanding of Gurmat its should be encouraged .

"Aaath pehar kar jor raho tau bhete har rai ri ".
Harmanprret singh ji

We need the entire shabad to understand your point - i.e., how Gurmat encourages begging. I am unable to locate the tuk given in transliteration, without an Ang number.

Thank you

Never mind I found it. But I do not see anything about begging. Ang 400


ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

ਸੰਤਾ ਕੀ ਹੋਇ ਦਾਸਰੀ ਏਹੁ ਅਚਾਰਾ ਸਿਖੁ ਰੀ ॥
Sanṯā kī ho▫e ḏāsrī ehu acẖārā sikẖ rī.
Become the servant of the Saints, and learn this way of life.

ਸਗਲ ਗੁਣਾ ਗੁਣ ਊਤਮੋ ਭਰਤਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਪਿਖੁ ਰੀ ॥੧॥
Sagal guṇā guṇ ūṯmo bẖarṯā ḏūr na pikẖ rī. ||1||
Of all virtues, the most sublime virtue is to see your Husband Lord near at hand. ||1||

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਮਜੀਠੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰੀ ॥
Ih man sunḏar āpṇā har nām majīṯẖai rang rī.
So, dye this mind of yours with the color of the Lord's Love.

ਤਿਆਗਿ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਚਾਤੁਰੀ ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣੁ ਗੁਪਾਲਹਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ŧi▫āg si▫āṇap cẖāṯurī ṯūʼn jāṇ gupālėh sang rī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Renounce cleverness and cunning, and know that the Sustainer of the world is with you. ||1||Pause||

ਭਰਤਾ ਕਹੈ ਸੁ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਏਹੁ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ਬਣਾਇ ਰੀ ॥
Bẖarṯā kahai so mānī▫ai ehu sīgār baṇā▫e rī.
Whatever your Husband Lord says, accept that, and make it your decoration.

ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਵਿਸਾਰੀਐ ਏਹੁ ਤੰਬੋਲਾ ਖਾਇ ਰੀ ॥੨॥
Ḏūjā bẖā▫o visārī▫ai ehu ṯambolā kẖā▫e rī. ||2||
Forget the love of duality, and chew upon this betel leaf. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੀਪਕੋ ਇਹ ਸਤ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਬਿਛਾਇ ਰੀ ॥
Gur kā sabaḏ kar ḏīpko ih saṯ kī sej bicẖẖā▫e rī.
Make the Word of the Guru's Shabad your lamp, and let your bed be Truth.

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਭੇਟੈ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ਰੀ ॥੩॥
Āṯẖ pahar kar joṛ rahu ṯa▫o bẖetai har rā▫e rī. ||3||
Twenty-four hours a day, stand with your palms pressed together, and the Lord, your King, shall meet you. ||3||

ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਚਜੁ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਈ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰਿ ਰੀ ॥
Ŧis hī cẖaj sīgār sabẖ sā▫ī rūp apār rī.
She alone is cultured and embellished, and she alone is of incomparable beauty.

ਸਾਈ ਸਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜੋ ਭਾਣੀ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ਰੀ ॥੪॥੧੬॥੧੧੮॥
▫ī sohagaṇ nānkā jo bẖāṇī karṯār rī. ||4||16||118||
She alone is the happy soul-bride, O Nanak, who is pleasing to the Creator Lord. ||4||16||118||


Please explain because you may be seeing something that I am missing, and that makes a difference in solving this puzzle.
 

Ishna

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Now here is the problem that rises from this for me, directed to anyone and everyone. If begging is asking for something we do not have and Guru Nanak begs, as in

Har Nānak mangai joṛ kar parabẖ ḏevai ṯuṯẖā. ||13||
Nanak begs for the Lord's Name", with his palms pressed together; by His Pleasure, God has granted it. ||13||
does this raise questions?
Does it mean that Guru Nanak is begging because he has not yet enshrined the Naam within, and thus asks for it because he needs it?

Does it also mean that it is OK to ask for a silver Mercedes Benz or a male grandchild in ardas?

This is perplexing and is the reason why I asked about begging in the other thread. If we are settled in Hukam, why then beg. We have what we need. There has to be a way to understand whether "begging" always rises from an unmet need, or a seeking for something that is missing. Is it OK to beg for some things and not others? Does it make sense for Guru Nanak to beg as long as he begs for Naam?

I raised a similar question in SOTW regarding the word "cursed."
I think the question of what we're asking for has been dealt with in other areas of Gurbani, like the passage I quoted previously on ang 958

ਮਃ

Mėhlā 5.

Fifth Mehl:


ਵਿਣੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਿ ਮੰਗਣਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਖਾ ਕੈ ਦੁਖ

viṇ ṯuḏẖ hor jė mangṇā sir ḏukẖā kai ḏukẖ.

To ask for any other than You, Lord, is the most miserable of miseries.


ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਭੁਖ

Ḏėh nām sanṯokẖī▫ā uṯrai man kī bẖukẖ.

Please bless me with Your Name, and make me content; may the hunger of my mind be satisfied.


ਗੁਰਿ ਵਣੁ ਤਿਣੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਕੀਤਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਆ ਮਨੁਖ ॥੨॥

Gur vaṇ ṯiṇ hari▫ā kīṯi▫ā Nānak ki▫ā manukẖ. ||2||

The Guru has made the woods and meadows green again. O Nanak, is it any wonder that He blesses human beings as well? ||2||

The thing being asked for is Darshan, the removal of the sense of separation, to always be in simran. We are already united, we just have to realise it, and this is the realisation we seek. IMHO.

The question then becomes, "to whom are we asking/begging/imploring". Imploring - perhaps that's a better word than 'begging'.

If we are settled in Hukam, why then beg.
Perhaps the begging is done by those who aren't yet settled in Hukam, to become so. I don't know. What other interpretation can be given to Guru Sahib's asking/seeking/mangai in the Shabad?
 

spnadmin

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Ishna ji

Good! But why is Guru Nanak begging? Guru Nanak already has/had Darshan.

p/s I am going Socratic here because I really don't understand.
 

spnadmin

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SPNADMIN NOTE to all replying to this thread. NO POSTING OF SINGLE TUKS. This is done to prove a point but in context of a complete shabad a different meaning can be and is often found. This is a real problem especially when the tuk is given in a non-standard transliteration and there is no ang number. Someone has to locate the shabad and that is time-consuming with transliterations. The rule is a complete shabad (at minimum a pauree or saloka) with Gurmukhi and an Ang number. Thank you.
 

Ishna

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You don't understand my question or you don't understand why Guru Nanak is begging?

Hmm. *ponders*

Furthermore why would Guru Sahib write so many shabads talking about the pain of separation if he was already united? For our benefit, so we can relate to the Shabad, perhaps? *continues to ponder*

This is a bit left field but might be some food for though: http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart230.htm being T. Singh's "The Beggar".
 
Nov 14, 2008
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You don't understand my question or you don't understand why Guru Nanak is begging?

Hmm. *ponders*

Furthermore why would Guru Sahib write so many shabads talking about the pain of separation if he was already united? For our benefit, so we can relate to the Shabad, perhaps? *continues to ponder*

This is a bit left field but might be some food for though: http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart230.htm being T. Singh's "The Beggar".

jai ho Ishna ji :wahmunda:,

well said , ya its like teacher holding kids hands in his hand to draw A ,B,C... .
 
Nov 14, 2008
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The thing being asked for is Darshan, the removal of the sense of separation, to always be in simran. We are already united, we just have to realise it, and this is the realisation we seek. IMHO.

on the spot ..we just need to associate our conciousness/Surat to Shabad Guru .
 

spnadmin

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One good insult deserves another or no ! lol

Once someone said, Those who can do and those who can't teach. And we have a lot of people walking the earth, including here on the forum, who are quite ready to share about the importance of "losing ego, killing the 5 thieves, the importance of being humble, and how to get to turiya. But so far few I have heard from have managed it.

Harmanprret singh ji I posted a shabad for you. When you have the time and inclination, please do reply to my question from a Gurmat point of view. How does the shabad on Ang 400 containing the tuk "Aaath pehar kar jor raho tau bhete har rai ri " tell us that Gurbani encourages begging? at this permalink in green font http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/41846-begging-in-gurbani.html#post193291

First step to learning is to admit you don't know. On this point I do not know. Without question I believe Guru Nanak was humble, and Guru Nanak had accepted the hukam of Waheguru. So I repeat... Why is Guru Nanak begging for Darshan that he already has taken? Thanks for the link Ishna ji, I will check it.
 

spnadmin

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Ishna ji

I have read the link. Like many articles at gurbani.org which I have read in the past, this doesn't answer my question. I am not convinced of that the author takes a helpful approach, and gives "stock in trade" replies found all over the net.

Adding this thought a bit later to explain what I mean by "stock in trade" replies. The article draws a link between humility and begging. John who is begging at the doors of the shopping centre may not be Humble John.Humility is not a necessary condition for begging. Many beg who are not humble. John may have very egotistical reasons for begging. On the opposite end, begging is not sufficient proof of humility. We take a leap if we argue "So and So is begging, therefore he must be humble." The lessons at gurbani.org may or may not be the only conclusions possible based on the shabads as presented.

I won't go off topic with more of my criticisms, but still wish to thank you for searching out something for me to read.
 
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Ishna

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How about 'Those who can, do; those who can't, forum'? lol

j/k!!!

But on a serious note, if I did offend you, it was unintentional and I apologize.
 
Oct 21, 2009
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Ishna ji

Good! But why is Guru Nanak begging? Guru Nanak already has/had Darshan.
p/s I am going Socratic here because I really don't understand.
IMHO, It is the humility of Guru Sahibaan that they are teaching us as to how to realize the Naam i.e by making earnest requests/beg by making prayers and by following the teachings contained in the shabad.......[ Giani Thakur Singh of Patiala in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji- katha/ deiscourses that is available on Internet.If any one needs the link it shall be posted as I shall have to make a small search.]
 
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