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Bad Translations And Interpretations-how Do They Affect Us?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Jul 12, 2015.

  1. chazSingh

    chazSingh Belgium
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    my point is none of us will ever understand until we can see the 'full' picture...god consciousness

    i believe we 'can' know the full picture..the full picture is revealed if we seek it...

    that is why we cannot get our heads around certain parts of Gurbani...that says there is no right, and there is no wrong or who i bad and who is good...

    it's because we don;t know he full picture...we cannot see from on top of the mountain, we only see whats before us on the street...

    take away all the Drama...all the characters...all the costumes....and what is left is God, and nothing but God...a sea of unlimited possibilities...
    will we ever really truely comprehend that? if everything is God\waheguru\ikongkar...who is right...and who is wrong :)....

    if everything is God\waheguru\ikongkar then who is good and who is bad :)

    i want to see the full picture...now...not when i die....i want to experience it all, god willing...whilst i am alive..
    i believe Gurbani guides us to this realization...and from what has been revealed so far, i will not doubt any of it ever again..
     
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  2. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Chaz Jee

    If you can hear the inner voice or see the inner vision. Good luck to you. I was referring to gurbani only. Guru sahib clearly says the divine food the treasure is 'nanak likhiya naal - it is recorded within you and it is discovered by, ' ਇਹੁ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਅਲਭੁ ਹੈ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਲਭੈ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਮਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ thus outrightly dismisses meditation.
     
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  3. chazSingh

    chazSingh Belgium
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    no gritted teeth my friend...

    but then only i would know that right? everything else on your part is just guess work based on a TEXT message :) (i am really smiling here)

    just as only i would know if i am parroting, or if i am having a drug like nonsense of an experience through my simran..or if its something that is beyond all comprehension...as real as the world you see around you...and only you and others will label it as mere mindless parroting...based on very little knowledge on what i did and what happened...

    but that is the way of the world...and there is no right or wrong here...

    ...because even gurbani says when you take this path the world will think you're nuts...hence..if you want to play this game of love...come to me (waheguru) with your head and take no notice of public opinion...this journey is very personal and myself nor anyone else can not prove any of it to each other.

    so if you think i'm parroting, its cool... :)
    i'm loving unraveling gurbani...i hope you are also whilst being in consonance with your surrounding.

    god bless...(i mean that).
     
  4. chazSingh

    chazSingh Belgium
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    it is Gurbani that is taking me to where i am going :) starting that summers day when i realized i have been going to the gurdwara mindlessly bowing my head to Guru Ji all my life, and i finally opened Guru Ji up and took a dive within...

    A lot of that journey which continues today also, is to change my way of thinking into divine traits like you mention...
    have you ever wondered why some people are just naturally nice...they don't try to be nice...they just are nice..
    whereas others make effort to be nice...but lurking within them is the 5 thieves..

    what is the difference? a difference i notice is that their Ego is less than others...and as Gurbani says, once Ego is dissolved, God manifests...waheguru's divine traits naturally come through...

    so this is what i do...through thought and deed, changing the way i do things in life...as Harry Ji would say...try to live in consonance with my surroundings...

    but to also spend a little time where i can use my God given Dyaan to focus IK Man, on my creator which Gurbani says is within me...to surrender to His power, His will and hope His Shabad guides me...so that His Divine traits come through as the Fog of my Ego dissolves

    God Bless Ji
     
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  5. Original

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    H - too good ! seated behind my desk I burst out in laughter - much obliged ! Now this is what I call "guru g di bani" - laugh n joke love n live !
     
  6. Ishna

    Ishna
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  7. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Great thread, great insights and observations shared by all.

    Ishna ji has stated about religions of the day being a catalyst in Guru ji's writings and style thereof. The religions of the day were mostly Hinduism and Islam. If you see the writers (Guru ji and others), they were teachers who felt a need to share a wisdom that varied from the prevalent. In order to best connect and carry on this endeavor, they used the beliefs held by people or preached to the people as a subject of study. A logical reasoning then followed and the underlying wisdom either became self evident or was explicitly shared. If we understand such dichotomy of the person, the belief and the wisdom as it should be, then all of SGGS becomes quite wonderfully sticky to understand, enjoy and cherish.

    How to approach SGGS ji then. If you have none of the beliefs or such background (mostly of Hinduism and its off shoots or Islam) then you can go straight to wisdom which by itself is timeless. The fun part is that where in SGGS reference is made to subjects related to Hinduism or Islam, you don't need to go back 500 or 600 years.If you are observant and want to experience you can do so today with some effort and focus through internet, etc., as not much has changed in this area.

    A much more difficult part of SGGS is when the metaphor's of the environs of the time are used in a given shabad/stanza, pankti/line, etc. It will be all but impossible to experience poetic joy had you not either experienced or otherwise can relate to visuals of the writer's mind. Whether it is peacocks looking for mates (there is no falsehood or cheating it is all good and per consonance :) ) or somehow within ourselves get nadar/vision/trigger/catalyst that helps us rise so that we may understand the consonance and creation that surrounds us.

    So for me that is how it is. I am not scholarly a study of Hindusim or Islam but can grossly relate and then see why SGGS talks about something and the wisdom that follows. It helps but many times if I want to learn and dig deeper I read Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Darpan which provides incredible background in such instances.

    Let us put it into practice. If I may assume, Ishna ji is probably not colored by or deeply follows Hinduism or Islamic beliefs. So where ever in SGGS there is reference to these she can go straight to the wisdom rather than how wisdom is derived to justify why it be so. On the other hand, if a person is raised in a protected Western society much away from arts and crafts, when there is reference to cobbler's wheel and the rich soil they seek to shape earthenware. One may not relate to the essence or even miss out on the whole message.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  8. chazSingh

    chazSingh Belgium
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    Ambarsaria ji,

    it would be very useful to have an example or two to understand exactly what you are saying here..

    if you get time, that would be great.

    thanks ji
     
  9. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Chazsingh ji here it goes. I have taken a short cut in that I have not created line by line my understanding. By quoting I am not necessarily agreeing with any one translation but I believe it helps illustrate the concept.


    ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ (Hinduism Gods/figures, etc.)

    गुरुईसरुगुरुगोरखुबरमागुरुपारबतीमाई॥

    Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.

    The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

    ਗੁਰੂਸ਼ਿਵਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂਹੀਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰਤੇਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਂ, ਗੁਰੂਹੀਸ਼ਿਵਦੀਪਤਨੀ-ਪਾਰਬਤੀ, ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰਦੀਪਤਨੀਲਖਸ਼ਮੀਅਤੇਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦੀਪਤਨੀ-ਸੁਰਸਵਤੀਹੈ।

    ਈਸਰੁ = ਸ਼ਿਵ।ਬਰਮਾ = ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ।ਪਾਰਬਤੀਮਾਈ = ਮਾਈਪਾਰਬਤੀ।ਗੁਰੂਹੀ (ਸਾਡੇਲਈ) ਸ਼ਿਵਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂਹੀ (ਸਾਡੇਲਈ) ਗੋਰਖਤੇਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਹੈਅਤੇਗੁਰੂਹੀ (ਸਾਡੇਲਈ) ਮਾਈਪਾਰਬਤੀਹੈ।


    WISDOM:

    ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥


    सभनाजीआकाइकुदातासोमैविसरिनजाई॥५॥


    Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||5||


    there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||


    ਸਮੂਹਜੀਵਾਂਦਾਕੇਵਲਇਕਦਾਤਾਰਹੈ।ਉਹਮੈਨੂੰਕਦੇਭੀਨਾਂਭੁਲੇ।


    ਇਕੁਦਾਤਾ = ਦਾਤਾਂਦੇਣਵਾਲਾਇਕਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖ।ਵਿਸਰਿਨਾਜਾਈ = ਭੁੱਲਨਾਜਾਏ। (ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਇਕ' ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ-ਲਿੰਗਹੈਤੇਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਬੁਝਾਈ' ਦਾਵਿਸ਼ੇਸ਼ਣਹੈ।ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਇਕੁ' ਪੁਲਿੰਗਹੈਤੇਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਦਾਤਾ' ਦਾਵਿਸ਼ੇਸ਼ਣਹੈ।ਦੋਹਾਂਲਫ਼ਜ਼ਾਂਦੇਜੋੜਾਂਦਾਫ਼ਰਕਚੇਤੇਰੱਖਣਾ)।ਕਿਜਿਹੜਾਸਭਨਾਂਜੀਵਾਂਨੂੰਦਾਤਾਂਦੇਣਵਾਲਾਇਕਰੱਬਹੈ, ਮੈਂਉਸਨੂੰਭੁਲਾਨਾਦਿਆਂ॥੫॥


    ---------------------------------------------------
    Another example:

    ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ (Hinduism rituals.)

    तीरथिनावाजेतिसुभावाविणुभाणेकिनाइकरी॥

    Ŧirath nāvā je ṯis bẖāvā viṇ bẖāṇe kė nā▫e karī.

    If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?

    ਜੇਕਰਮੈਂਉਸਨੂੰਚੰਗਾਲੱਗਜਾਵਾਂਤਾਂਇਹੀਮੇਰਾਧਰਮਅਸਥਾਨਤੇਨ੍ਹਾਉਣਾਹੈ।ਉਸਨੂੰਚੰਗਾਲੱਗਣਦੇਬਿਨਾਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਦਾਕੀਲਾਭਹੈ?

    ਤੀਰਥਿ = ਤੀਰਥਉੱਤੇ।ਨਾਵਾ = ਮੈਂਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਕਰਾਂ।ਤਿਸੁ = ਉਸਰੱਬਨੂੰ।ਭਾਵਾ = ਮੈਂਚੰਗਾਲੱਗਾਂ।ਵਿਣੁਭਾਣੇ = ਰੱਬਨੂੰਚੰਗਾਲੱਗਣਤੋਂਬਿਨਾ, ਜੇਰੱਬਦੀਨਜ਼ਰਵਿਚਕਬੂਲਨਾਹੋਇਆ।ਕਿਨਾਇਕਰੀ = ਨ੍ਹਾਇਕੇਮੈਂਕੀਹਕਰਾਂ?ਮੈਂਤੀਰਥਉੱਤੇਜਾਕੇਤਦਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਕਰਾਂਜੇਇਉਂਕਰਨਨਾਲਉਸਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਨੂੰਖ਼ੁਸ਼ਕਰਸਕਾਂ, ਪਰਜੇਇਸਤਰ੍ਹਾਂਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਖ਼ੁਸ਼ਨਹੀਂਹੁੰਦਾ, ਤਾਂਮੈਂ (ਤੀਰਥਉੱਤੇ) ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਕਰਕੇਕੀਹਖੱਟਾਂਗਾ?



    WISDOM


    ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੬॥

    सभनाजीआकाइकुदातासोमैविसरिनजाई॥६॥

    Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||6||

    there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||6||

    ਸਮੂਹਜੀਵਾਂਦਾਕੇਵਲਇਕਦਾਤਾਰਹੈ।ਉਹਮੈਨੂੰਕਦੇਭੀਨਾਂਭੁੱਲੇ।

    xxxਜਿਸਕਰਕੇਮੈਨੂੰਉਹਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖਨਾਵਿਸਰਜਾਏ, ਜੋਸਾਰੇਜੀਵਾਂਨੂੰਦਾਤਾਂਦੇਣਵਾਲਾਹੈ॥੬॥


    Metaphoric Deductions: Message what is a worthwhile dependency!

    · Lions are non-vegetarian; so crave meat

    · Fighters like challenges of a fight; look for a fight

    · Misers love money; so hoard

    · The true seeker of knowledge; depends on knowledge of creator


    ਸਿੰਘ ਰੁਚੈ ਸਦ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਮਾਸ

    सिंघरुचैसदभोजनुमास॥

    Singẖ rucẖai saḏ bẖojan mās.

    The tiger always wants to eat meat.

    ਸ਼ੇਰਹਮੇਸ਼ਾਂਹੀਗੋਸ਼ਤਦਾਖਾਣਾਚਾਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ।

    ਸਿੰਘ = ਸ਼ੇਰ।ਰੁਚੈ = ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ।ਸਦ = ਸਦਾ।ਮਾਸਦਾਭੋਜਨਮਿਲੇਤਾਂਸ਼ੇਰਸਦਾਖ਼ੁਸ਼ਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ,


    ਰਣੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਸੂਰੇ ਚਿਤ ਉਲਾਸ

    रणुदेखिसूरेचितउलास॥

    Raṇ ḏekẖ sūre cẖiṯ ulās.

    Gazing upon the battlefield, the warrior's mind is exalted.

    ਲੜਾਈਹੁੰਦੀਵੇਖਸੂਰਮੇਦਮਨਵਿੱਚਉਮੰਗਪੈਦਾਹੁੰਦੀਹੈ।

    ਰਣੁ = ਜੁੱਧ।ਸੂਰ = ਸੂਰਮਾ।ਉਲਾਸ = ਹੁਲਾਰਾ, ਜੋਸ਼।ਜੁੱਧਵੇਖਕੇਸੂਰਮੇਦੇਚਿੱਤਨੂੰਜੋਸ਼ਆਉਂਦਾਹੈ,


    ਕਿਰਪਨ ਕਉ ਅਤਿ ਧਨ ਪਿਆਰੁ

    किरपनकउअतिधनपिआरु॥

    Kirpan ka▫o aṯ ḏẖan pi▫ār.

    The miser is totally in love with his wealth.

    ਕੰਜੂਸਆਪਣੀਦੌਲਤਨੂੰਨਿਹਾਇਤਹੀਮੁਹੱਬਤਕਰਦਾਹੈ।

    ਕਿਰਪਨ = ਕੰਜੂਸ, ਸ਼ੂਮ।ਸ਼ੂਮਨੂੰਧਨਦਾਬਹੁਤਲੋਭਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ।


    ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੩॥ (Hopefully all knowledge seekers like you and others :))

    हरिजनकउहरिहरिआधारु॥३॥

    Har jan ka▫o har har āḏẖār. ||3||

    The humble servant of the Lord leans on the Support of the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||

    ਰੱਬਦੇਗੋਲੇਨੂੰਕੇਵਲਸਾਈਂਮਾਲਕਦਾਹੀਆਸਰਾਹੈ। ਤਮਾਦੇਨਾਮਦਾਆਸਰਾਹੁੰਦਾਹੈ॥੩॥


    WISDOM: The true one, craves for the knowledge of creator.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  10. Original

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    Dear All

    Ambarsaria Ji's article is a pleasure to read - beautifully delivered ! I sincerely wish we can all adopt that very style, bar subjective arguments, which of course, can be fought on a neighbouring field - titled "my sikhi".

    Couple of notable observations on my part; first, what are the essential tools for reading and understanding gurbani ? From a scholarly perspective, Sikh history is a must, studied in line with social n environmental conditions prevalent at the time of writing together with basic poetry reading skills, that is, what is the shabd about, what is the writer's mood, attitude, social, personal circumstances, what is going on, who is talking, to whom, under what circumstances, where, about what, why, etc. From a religious perspective, a holistic approach coupled with reverence n respect, which ought to hammer home meaning and intent in one sitting. Both however, must borne in mind not to water-down the facts so as to dilute the conveyance and rob its authenticity, classic case of which was evidenced by Japjisahib Ji above [more n chikor - verse 658].

    The two kinds of compositions used in SGGSJ, were the literary type and second, the types which were recited in the folklore forms. It is the latter of the two which Guru Ravidas used when constructing the above shabd. The operative word or shall we say, "romantic" line used by Ravidas Ji was, "sachi preet" meaning true love and building it around the metaphors of mountain-peacock and moon-chikor was to bring out the best punjabi folklore of the natives of Punjab. Alien interpretations not familiar with folklore are bound to miss the tune to the music of punjab no matter how intellectually aided. Now, this brings me to my second observation, notably, the nature of gurbani.

    Although, the tools for construction used by authors of SGGSJ are the same as that of poetry, everything else is at variance. That is to say, the craft of gurbani is like that of poetry, but the subject matter and the tendency of its creators is pretty much their own. Where poetry is composed by the poet, bani is written by a banikar, the spiritual man. Poetry revolves largely around the visible world and human relationships, limiting its scope within time n space, Gurbani however, transcends time n space allowing the Banikars to express their divine experiences, which not only do they analyse but also present philosophically on the level of reality as could best be understood by the ordinary mind of the believer in God.

    For both Ishna Ji n Chaz Ji, an example will best illustrate the art, craft, mood, subject matter, metaphor used by the writer in the following shabads:

    ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਕੁੰਭੇ ਬਧਾ ਜਲੁ ਰਹੈ ਜਲ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੁੰਭੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨ ਕਾ ਬਧਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 469} Here guru Nanak metaphorically uses an analogy to hammer home the importance of having a "guru". Simile used, ਕੁੰਭੇ [vessel to store liquids, which is made on potters wheel] is a typically used utensil within Indian households. Now, those of us who are familiar will immediately grasp Nanak's message from those who are not. And, the point of enjoyment is grounded in Nanak's skill to its best endeavours by connecting the ordinary [householder] to the extra-ordinary [guru] by the use of words.

    ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ .... ਮਿਠਤੁ ਨੀਵੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਤਤੁ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 470} Now, here guru Nanak moves away from the hustle bustle of urbanisation and into the contemplative ambience of rural Punjab. Although, the message concealed is "humility" [ਮਿਠਤੁ, sweet] but the ideology is phenomenal. What Nanak used as a simile for sweetness is "bay'rr"[sweet fruit] and in his travels had seen many [inference on my part] which incidentally are quite unique to only sub-continent Indiana. The heavy ladened fruit tree [Bay'ree] which produces so sweet bay'rr, "hey ye human" says Nanak, "be thou art like the Bayree who is ever so low, touching ground and yet so sweet". In other words, become like the fruit tree, that is, the lower you are the sweeter you are.

    The moral of it is, to get the best flavour of gurbani and appreciate its literary skill is to read it raw and to get wisdom to align your moral compass is another - depends which you so inclined.

    Goodnight n Godbless

    Pls make allowances for errors, shortfalls or wrongs unintentionally worded.
     
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  11. OP
    Harry Haller

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    of course, but who is Guru Ravidas?
     
  12. Original

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    Good morning - H

    As always, hit'em where it hurts, besides, 75% of philosophical investigation is solely dependent on the "question" - good question !

    As per the contributors of gurmat stream within SGGSJ, we have the gurus, their relatives, minstrels, musicians, and saint poets [Bhagat's]. Although, Ravidas is considered a Bhagat per se, by virtue however, SGGSJ becoming the living Guru of the Sikh Panth and his writings forming thereof a part, renders him by logic, a guru.

    Interesting observation on your part because I didn't know so much about India until I started visiting regularly. And, it was through my work within the disadvantaged communities I learnt that certain sects of Ravidas followings wanted his writings removed from SGGSJ for reasons of discrimination. In fact some may already have done that, but when that fell on my ears I took a stand to do something about it. And, fortunately to the best of my ability and endeavours to those whom I could reach out I did, reconciled and dismissed colour caste syndrome in light of Khalsa mat. I'm pleased to say that wisdom is "up in the air" amongst the ordinary, especially the young. Also, I took it on my head to educate the masses [disadvantaged] through religious excursions of various historical sites so as to include them within the main stream Sikh framework.

    Hope I've succeeded in discharging an obligation with which you've burdened.

    Much obliged - take care !
     
  13. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Original ji, you deserve great compliments for your benevolent work.

    On the same vein that you have suggested that we do not color as in your message few posts ago:

    We need to call things as these are. From getting the message, learning the wisdom or otherwise enjoy, I do not believe the authorship of a particular shabad holds any significance. These are all equal quality and integrity while dealing with various concepts conveyance.

    Whether Guru Nanak is called just Nanak in the shabads or Farid is called Sheikh Farid and Ravi Das is called Bhagat Ravidas, it matters little. For the particular contribution all their qualities are at par in SGGS. So it is the wisdom that is significant in Sikhism and much less the persona. The following may not be accurate but look at the contributors to SGGS:

    For a specific contribution, again none is less or more than anyone else. However, we can of course observe the level of contributions varying from one or two shabads all the way to large collected works like japji Sahib, sukhmani Sahib, etc.

    So the Guruship is external to writings in SGGS. It is limited to the ten Gurus and the final embodiment in SGGS as the 11th and final. So we cannot create other Gurus in Sikhism!

    For me each and every Shabad deserves equal reverence, respect, love so that we can latch on to the wisdom therein.

    Just some thoughts with respect.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  14. chazSingh

    chazSingh Belgium
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    you see, the way i see it....

    if the author is Waheguru (which is is)...then the Guru's, the bhagats, the saints etc etc that were infused with waheguru were able to know instantly upon coming across shabads written by the hands of others as to their authenticity and where it came from.

    they walked the earth...and from time to time, they came across shabad and thought "ahhhhh....that is Gurbani...bani from my sat guru *waheguru" ... it must be included in the SGGS ji"

    i don;t think i have ever really looked very much into the physical author...i want to read SGGS Ji as the writing of waheguru...
     
  15. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    chazSingh ji thanks for your post.

    It is dangerous to somehow equate SGGS to "God Speak" as in Bible or other religious scriptures. Guru ji or other contributors were always portraying and believing that they were just like you and me and did not have any special message from God to convey to others. They shared wisdom that does come to people so blessed in many ways who start to understand creator and creation. So Gurbani is about the "Gur/God-creator" but it is not by "Gur/God-creator".

    Let us be very careful in this regard. If it was "God Speak" one would close the eyes and believe. Hardly the description of a Sikh, a learner. A true Sikh can see wisdom presented and deduced or illustrated in many ways rather than blind acceptance. SGGS of course being a wonderful source of such wisdom and a great treatise to learn from.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  16. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Let us look back at the rahao which is the central idea of the sabd 'ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ - the misunderstanding comes when I link 'ਮਾਧਵੇ' with God - God is all love - inevitable laws of nature, thus prayer are not to the God but to my manh which needs to be sachiar, if you don’t help me to break this chain of shortcomings by walking on the laws of nature, then I cannot get away from my shortcomings. Reflecting the central idea on the entire sabd will show that bhagat Ravidas is trying to tell that sachi preet is only by surrendering and walking with laws of nature and all other preet of morni etc is kachi preet or infatuation. No doubt metaphors of mountain-peacock and moon-chikor are punjabi folklore of the natives of Punjab but it is all one sided as ਬਿਪਤਿ ਪਰੀ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੰਗੁ ਛਾਡਿਤ ਕੋਊ ਨ ਆਵਤ ਨੇਰੈ ॥੧॥ SGGS.634
     
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  17. chazSingh

    chazSingh Belgium
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    All is waheguru...only the ego think otherwise

    God bless
     
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  18. Original

    Original
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    Respected Ambarsaria Ji - it's a pleasure to reciprocate on such divine executions.

    Once again, credit where it's due, saa'up b mar jaya par lathi b na tutta [kill the snake without breaking the stick], I think you've managed to do that nicely, point taken, presented subtly and effectively, but not consistently in my view with teleological* view of the world. Guru Nanak's advent upon humanity was to unite humankind and not divide. Guru as a prefix to Ravidas is both legitimately and virtuously ordained for he was by definition a guru to many, including princess Meera, Maharaja Pipa, and so much more before Guru Nanak came on to the scene. Yes, within the Sikh diaspora that title is nul n void but not altogether inappropriate on the whole for Ravidas had a trendmendous following and still has.
    To call him "guru" is an honour for us as Sikhs to show not only our respect but to concur with the proclamation of Guru Gobind Singh Ji in conferring Guruship on SGGSJ to which he is part.

    Let us as you rightly appropriated attach value to the permanence of being [God] rather then to why the being.

    Much obliged !

    * the view that everything has an ultimate end or purpose towards which it will inevitably develop [378 SGGSJ - God realisation].
     
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  19. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    When Guru sahib proclaimed SGGS as sabd guru for us it was to bring oneness and Sabd as guru, otherwise 'ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੀਆ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਜੀਆਂ ਬੋਲੀ ਅਵਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥੬॥ we again tear apart and divide the message.SGGS.1191.4
     
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  20. chazSingh

    chazSingh Belgium
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    the divine light fully manifest within all the authors was 'guru' all else is dust. so yes, it is 'one' and the author is 'one'...the fuly manifest jyot...
     
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