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Bad Translations And Interpretations-how Do They Affect Us?

Original

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here in full swing exposing and disclosing the fake practices at the hands of the administrators and how "justice will be done" by the watcher in the woods [God] for nothing is left unrecorded [implied]. It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to "beware", and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !

Guru sahib have addressed God as Mother and Father (qu maat pita ham barek tairai), do the parents curse their children or call them wicked and punish or deprive them of any facilities irrespective of any wrong doing. If your interpretation is not presenting God as vengeful then I have nothing to add.
Japjisahib Ji
You've saved me doing a long exercise, thank you, the word "wicked" you construed is precisely within the genre, which it belongs. If you now look at the intent within which I framed, you should or I intended you to read it as such was "immoral". You see how you gave wicked its literal meaning - now read nadar within that framework.
Thank you !
 

japjisahib04

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You've saved me doing a long exercise, thank you, the word "wicked" you construed is precisely within the genre, which it belongs. If you now look at the intent within which I framed, you should or I intended you to read it as such was "immoral". You see how you gave wicked its literal meaning - now read nadar within that framework
Original Jee

You are most welcome! Now I know why you place excessive reliance on repeating a word and believe Guru Tegh Bahadur sat in a bhora for several years doing bhagati waiting for God's mercy and grace when Guru Nanak himself is complaining to his manh to have mercy on him, 'ਏਤੀ ਮਾਰ ਪਈ ਕਰਲਾਣੇ ਤੈਂ ਕੀ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ by your action my body is totally shattered and eroded, have mercy on me and come to the sanctuary of guru's wisdom.SGGS.360

Guru sahib in 2nd pauree of japjisahib clearly tells us that there are two hukmi and, 'ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥ intellect of first hukmi keeps you in a state of ecstacy while other (intellect of manh) sends you wandering aimlessly forever.

May God bless you
 

japjisahib04

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S. Sherdil Jee

Welcome! Interpretation listed by you is literal and I would request you to kindly give your own interpretation as there neither are nine continents on this earth nor guru sahib would say that there is now such person who can show any goodness unto Him ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇ ॥੭॥ when actual meaning is there is no other way but inner journey and bheebekh budhi which can bestows virtues upon me
 

chazSingh

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here in full swing exposing and disclosing the fake practices at the hands of the administrators and how "justice will be done" by the watcher in the woods [God] for nothing is left unrecorded [implied]. It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to "beware", and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !

Guru sahib have addressed God as Mother and Father (qu maat pita ham barek tairai), do the parents curse their children or call them wicked and punish or deprive them of any facilities irrespective of any wrong doing. If your interpretation is not presenting God as vengeful then I have nothing to add.
Japji ji

I cannot see how original is implying a vengeful god. If you put your dyaan on waheguru..then surely He takes notice and you get his full support

If your dyaan is elsewhere and you have no interest in waheguru or doing sat karams then what is waheguru to do other than to patiently wait until you do...For waheguru loves us all. Your desires are fulfilled either way...and we live with the rule as you sow shall you reap no matter which direction you take...

Surely a teacher can only help and support students whos dyaan is on succeeding on a course. On students that want to be helped...who are open to the teachers guidance.

If a student wants to be elsewhere or is not interested then the teacher eventually has no choice but to respect the student and let them go in their own direction

But the teacher always remains open to support that student if they want to return

This is not vengeful...This is love...things are not as black and white as you are taking it.
 

Original

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Japji ji

I cannot see how original is implying a vengeful god. If you put your dyaan on waheguru..then surely He takes notice and you get his full support

If your dyaan is elsewhere and you have no interest in waheguru or doing sat karams then what is waheguru to do other than to patiently wait until you do...For waheguru loves us all. Your desires are fulfilled either way...and we live with the rule as you sow shall you reap no matter which direction you take...

Surely a teacher can only help and support students whos dyaan is on succeeding on a course. On students that want to be helped...who are open to the teachers guidance.

If a student wants to be elsewhere or is not interested then the teacher eventually has no choice but to respect the student and let them go in their own direction

But the teacher always remains open to support that student if they want to return

This is not vengeful...This is love...things are not as black and white as you are taking it.
Original Jee

You are most welcome! Now I know why you place excessive reliance on repeating a word and believe Guru Tegh Bahadur sat in a bhora for several years doing bhagati waiting for God's mercy and grace when Guru Nanak himself is complaining to his manh to have mercy on him, 'ਏਤੀ ਮਾਰ ਪਈ ਕਰਲਾਣੇ ਤੈਂ ਕੀ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ by your action my body is totally shattered and eroded, have mercy on me and come to the sanctuary of guru's wisdom.SGGS.360

Guru sahib in 2nd pauree of japjisahib clearly tells us that there are two hukmi and, 'ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥ intellect of first hukmi keeps you in a state of ecstacy while other (intellect of manh) sends you wandering aimlessly forever.

May God bless you
....and, you Sir !
 

Ishna

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Hi ishan, sorry, yes was meant for you.

an example showing a shabad where the meaning would be geared towards the audience back then only..
Chaz Ji

I think the whole of SGGS is geared towards the audience of the time - Hindus and Muslims. The whole text is full of references to Hindu and Muslim modes of thinking and worship. It's like a giant rebuttal to those methods, while also putting forward its own philosophy.

And I didn't say it was geared towards the audience back then only. The more one learns about Hindu religions, the more insight one can get from the examples Guru Sahib was giving.

Here is just one small example from Sohila, on panna 13:

ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ
Rāg āsā mėhlā 1.
Raag Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ
Cẖẖi▫a gẖar cẖẖi▫a gur cẖẖi▫a upḏes.
There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings.

ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥
Gur gur eko ves anek. ||1||
But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ||1||

ਬਾਬਾ ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹੋਇ
Bābā jai gẖar karṯe kīraṯ ho▫e.
O Baba: that system in which the Praises of the Creator are sung -

ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਤੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
So gẖar rākẖ vadā▫ī ṯo▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
follow that system; in it rests true greatness. ||1||Pause||​

Obviously this is in reference to, quoting Wikipedia: "The mainstream Hindu philosophy includes six systems (saddarsana) – Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Mīmāṃsā and Vedānta."

However, for other audiences, and particularly today's, you read that and acknowledge that there are dozens of philosophies from all around the world, and if worlds exist on other planets, then there are even more, not just six per Guru Nanak Sahib's above example.
 

Ishna

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Persian was the more common language at the time, not Arabic.

However, Arabic was used for science, theology and religion. It was the more official language.

What language was Guru Nanak Sahib using? Perhaps that will help guide us to the correct translation of 'nadar'.
 

Ishna

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I appreciate your comments, Original Ji. I can't say I agree with all of it, but it was good to read.

An open mind is essential, as you said. As humans, Guru Sahib teaches students how to use our lives in the best way we can, and shows us how to connect with Akaal Purakh and be good people. There is no other way for us. But to presume that nothing in the universe can have this connection is anthropocentric. As humans, we might think the universe revolves around us, but does it? Or are we just our own kind of voice amongst countless others trying to sing the song of the universe?
 

Original

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Chaz Ji

I think the whole of SGGS is geared towards the audience of the time - Hindus and Muslims. The whole text is full of references to Hindu and Muslim modes of thinking and worship. It's like a giant rebuttal to those methods, while also putting forward its own philosophy.

And I didn't say it was geared towards the audience back then only. The more one learns about Hindu religions, the more insight one can get from the examples Guru Sahib was giving.

Here is just one small example from Sohila, on panna 13:

ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ
Rāg āsā mėhlā 1.
Raag Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ
Cẖẖi▫a gẖar cẖẖi▫a gur cẖẖi▫a upḏes.
There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings.

ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥
Gur gur eko ves anek. ||1||
But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ||1||

ਬਾਬਾ ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹੋਇ
Bābā jai gẖar karṯe kīraṯ ho▫e.
O Baba: that system in which the Praises of the Creator are sung -

ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਤੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
So gẖar rākẖ vadā▫ī ṯo▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
follow that system; in it rests true greatness. ||1||Pause||​

Obviously this is in reference to, quoting Wikipedia: "The mainstream Hindu philosophy includes six systems (saddarsana) – Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Mīmāṃsā and Vedānta."

However, for other audiences, and particularly today's, you read that and acknowledge that there are dozens of philosophies from all around the world, and if worlds exist on other planets, then there are even more, not just six per Guru Nanak Sahib's above example.
New

Chaz Ji

I think the whole of SGGS is geared towards the audience of the time - Hindus and Muslims. The whole text is full of references to Hindu and Muslim modes of thinking and worship. It's like a giant rebuttal to those methods, while also putting forward its own philosophy.

Absolutely ! Baba Nanak Ji gave a meaning to life and a direction to the attainment of the ultimate goal - Ikonkar [God]. This message was not new, scriptures n cultures of our ancestral past are littered with evidence, but because of the selfish interests of the ruling classes the real message had been lost over time. Young Nanak revived it in a manner that was both refreshing and emphatic, notably, that human life is not like animals, where birth, death, rebirth [referred to as reincarnation] is a never ending cycle. That indeed is not the purpose of human life, said Nanak. For out of the primordial soup of biological n chemical interaction in accordance with physical laws [life] it is given only to human species to find a way out of the recurring process of birth death as per the theory of reincarnation [doctrine of belief at the time]. There are 84 lakh joon [again, a doctrine at the time] forms going round n round in this vicious cycle, "hey you human" called out Nanak, "human form is the only exit out of the 84" [supported here by Guru Arjun on page 378 SGGSJ - bhai prapat manukh]. This one outlet is the human form to escape from the prison house of this world for humankind alone is endowed with the possibility of finding release from it*. Humankind in this respect is qualitatively superior to all other living species [page 1075 SGGSJ].

*Edit] Although, Nanak advocated the celebration of life in its fullest, hence, his ideology of the three pillars of Sikhism, kirit kar, vand shuk, nam jap, he was nevertheless, conscientious of his audience, namely, Hindu, Muslims, Buddhist, Jainism whose outlook on life centred very much on suffering, afterlife paradise, morality, etc and it was to this end that the theory of reincarnation provided the perfect escape route to construe the true meaning n purpose of life, which is Sikhi [for believers].

Ishna Ji best way to learn is with an open mind, that is, what was yesterday will not be tomorrow, change is immanent, but because of our true identity as species accurate history is a must.
 

Original

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I appreciate your comments, Original Ji. I can't say I agree with all of it, but it was good to read.
thank you - they're not comments per se but rather interpretations of the historical literature found in and around the times of the Gurus and the Banikars [Indian society]. Please feel free to raise questions with what you find incompatible.
 

japjisahib04

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they're not comments per se but rather interpretations of the historical literature found in and around the times of the Gurus and the Banikars [Indian society]. Please feel free to raise questions with what you find incompatible.
Original Jee
I didn't know that you are a lawyer, I am only a small tyre dealer. Though there is no comparison between you and me but I would like to ask you quoting history and banikars by our gurus, is not it our duty to see the essence behind and how it applies on me as a first person as it is meant for me to be sachiar, after all it is a brahmgian. What I can see with naked eyes that concept of God in gurbani is chardhikla, creative energy, virtues, then how could same God cast angry glance and reduce kings into blades of grass or send me into cycle of reincarnation because I am not focussing on one word and meditating and when it matters not 'vadha n hovai ghat n jaey' whether I pray or not. Why God didn't cast angry glance on those butchers who burnt alive innocent sikh in 1984 praying in gurdwara and were busy parroting waheguru. Why instead of reducing these butchersto blades of grass, they were promoted to cabinets minsters and other high post. Why none of them are punished even after 31 years. The word veparwah for God has appeared in SGGS 64 times that mean he does not interfere as gurbani clearly tells us, 'jo kitch paeya so eka vaar- the divine intellect is given once for all whether we follow or not, is our choice' and jo brahmandai soei pindai.
,
 

Seeker2013

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There is no bad translation ! there is no good translation

In words of Guru Gobind Singh ji, "Aap aapni buddh hai jeti, barnat bhinn bhinn tuhe teti" (O God, people describe you as much as their own intellect allows them)
 

Harry Haller

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Absolutely ! Baba Nanak Ji gave a meaning to life and a direction to the attainment of the ultimate goal - Ikonkar [God].
I find it hard to recognise as the ultimate goal, simply the word Ikonkar, largely because it does not mean much, you could quite as easily say the ultimate goal is smurf. In plain English, and in my own view, the ultimate goal is to live in consonance with your surroundings, devoid of deity worship, supernatural events, ritual, ceremony, ego and pride.

This message was not new
On the other hand I think that it was new, completely new, not a mish mash of Hinduism and Islam, but something completely new, a religion that freed you from the shackles of giving a damn about the deity, that freed you from being scared of the deity, or obsessed with pleasing the deity, the message was quite simple, ask not what god can do for you, ask what you can do for god.

scriptures n cultures of our ancestral past are littered with evidence, but because of the selfish interests of the ruling classes the real message had been lost over time

It is not only the ruling classes that have selfish interests, and it is not only due to the ruling classes that the message has been lost over time,

Young Nanak revived it in a manner that was both refreshing and emphatic, notably, that human life is not like animals, where birth, death, rebirth [referred to as reincarnation] is a never ending cycle. That indeed is not the purpose of human life, said Nanak. For out of the primordial soup of biological n chemical interaction in accordance with physical laws [life] it is given only to human species to find a way out of the recurring process of birth death as per the theory of reincarnation [doctrine of belief at the time]

seems quite like the Hindu way of life, if he was going to laud this, why bother with something new, why not just start a new sect within Hinduism?

This one outlet is the human form to escape from the prison house of this world for humankind alone is endowed with the possibility of finding release from it*. Humankind in this respect is qualitatively superior to all other living species [page 1075 SGGSJ].
You make life sound like a punishment, Sikhism to me lauds life, it is precious, an opportunity to be part of the universe.
*Edit] Although, Nanak advocated the celebration of life in its fullest, hence, his ideology of the three pillars of Sikhism, kirit kar, vand shuk, nam jap, he was nevertheless, conscientious of his audience, namely, Hindu, Muslims, Buddhist, Jainism whose outlook on life centred very much on suffering, afterlife paradise, morality, etc and it was to this end that the theory of reincarnation provided the perfect escape route to construe the true meaning n purpose of life, which is Sikhi [for believers].
this theory of reincarnation has been around for centuries before,
 

chazSingh

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Original Jee
I didn't know that you are a lawyer, I am only a small tyre dealer. Though there is no comparison between you and me but I would like to ask you quoting history and banikars by our gurus, is not it our duty to see the essence behind and how it applies on me as a first person as it is meant for me to be sachiar, after all it is a brahmgian. What I can see with naked eyes that concept of God in gurbani is chardhikla, creative energy, virtues, then how could same God cast angry glance and reduce kings into blades of grass or send me into cycle of reincarnation because I am not focussing on one word and meditating and when it matters not 'vadha n hovai ghat n jaey' whether I pray or not. Why God didn't cast angry glance on those butchers who burnt alive innocent sikh in 1984 praying in gurdwara and were busy parroting waheguru. Why instead of reducing these butchersto blades of grass, they were promoted to cabinets minsters and other high post. Why none of them are punished even after 31 years. The word veparwah for God has appeared in SGGS 64 times that mean he does not interfere as gurbani clearly tells us, 'jo kitch paeya so eka vaar- the divine intellect is given once for all whether we follow or not, is our choice' and jo brahmandai soei pindai.
,
Let's stop parroting about the parroting...

The rule of the whole show is...as you sow shall you reap... Nothing can be outside of this rule.

Therefore if you have any faith in waheguru and his divine laws then understand that justice will always be served.

I will now return to my drug induced parroting...what shall I take today...The blue pill or the red pill?...hmmmm
 

chazSingh

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Unless you are interested in material you are translating, then I guess you are correct. Parroting is parroting regardless of what you are saying.
Whilst I agree that there are people who mindlessly parrot away..

There are others who are mindfully focused on their creator...so much so that the universe that you so wish to be in consonance with opens up before their very eyes... (inner vision)

But then I guess the all knowing harry ji and Japji can see with their mighty surface vision and caste judgement :)

God bless ya dudes!
 

chazSingh

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Chaz Ji

I think the whole of SGGS is geared towards the audience of the time - Hindus and Muslims. The whole text is full of references to Hindu and Muslim modes of thinking and worship. It's like a giant rebuttal to those methods, while also putting forward its own philosophy.

And I didn't say it was geared towards the audience back then only. The more one learns about Hindu religions, the more insight one can get from the examples Guru Sahib was giving.

Here is just one small example from Sohila, on panna 13:

ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ
Rāg āsā mėhlā 1.
Raag Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ
Cẖẖi▫a gẖar cẖẖi▫a gur cẖẖi▫a upḏes.
There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings.

ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥
Gur gur eko ves anek. ||1||
But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ||1||

ਬਾਬਾ ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹੋਇ
Bābā jai gẖar karṯe kīraṯ ho▫e.
O Baba: that system in which the Praises of the Creator are sung -

ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਤੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
So gẖar rākẖ vadā▫ī ṯo▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
follow that system; in it rests true greatness. ||1||Pause||​

Obviously this is in reference to, quoting Wikipedia: "The mainstream Hindu philosophy includes six systems (saddarsana) – Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Mīmāṃsā and Vedānta."

However, for other audiences, and particularly today's, you read that and acknowledge that there are dozens of philosophies from all around the world, and if worlds exist on other planets, then there are even more, not just six per Guru Nanak Sahib's above example.
Good example.

In it lies the timeless message...
 

Harry Haller

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Therefore if you have any faith in waheguru and his divine laws then understand that justice will always be served.
how do you square that with say Jimmy Saville?

is the whole 1984 issue outside of this justice diktat?

or are you going to tell me that I just don't understand?
 

Harry Haller

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But then I guess the all knowing harry ji and Japji can see with their mighty surface vision and caste judgement :)
I don't think either of us can see much, speaking for myself, I am merely using my god given brain to understand and ask questions.

oh, please don't feel you have to keep putting in smileys or the 'god bless' in your replies to me, its just that I can see the gritted teeth :)
 

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