• Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

As A Sikh Do You Ever Ask When Hurting Or Feeling Low, God/Creator, Why Me?

How you cope spiritually and in your mind to negative feelings?

  • I believe it is Karma from many lives before that I am paying for.

    Votes: 7 15.9%
  • I believe I am just reaping what I sow in this life.

    Votes: 4 9.1%
  • Up/down is being human and creator is neither partial nor vengeful.

    Votes: 14 31.8%
  • I am thankful for what I have versus be sorry for what is not perfect.

    Votes: 10 22.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 9 20.5%

  • Total voters
    44
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
Don't get us started again Vouthon ji. Before thinking I was, now I don't even know. icecreammunda

LOL icecreammunda

I'm sorry - I couldn't resist. I saw you all roped in paradoxes and so thought I'd add my own to the mix. This is a fascinating thread :whatzpointkudi:
I do believe in non-attachment though. Its a keystone of Buddhist, Catholic and Sufi mysticism. That's powerful testimony from many disconnected sacred traditions. Through being attached to nothing as uniquely your own you come to possess all.

Eastern Orthodox mystics say that one should never trust thoughts. According to the Hesychasts thoughts are not really you that is your deepest being. They are a distraction from your true self. In Orthodoxy the goal is to become aware of thoughts and then let them go and focus on your breathing. This way you begin to see thought-patterns that are pulling you in certain directions and keeping you from stillness within.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,655
It's great the more the merrier... err the less the merrier?

Roses are red.
What else is red?
Well, red is red.
Red is a word, how can it be red?
*facepalm*
I suck at poems!
lol

Haha but it rhymes though
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
54
my desires, .. my objects of desire, my legs, my parts, my arms, going past the sensory neurons in my skin... which are also mine BTW, the ground I am standing on is mine, my computer, my house, my driveway, my street, my country, my continent, my himalayan mountains, my great wall of china, my pacific ocean, my moon, jupiter, my alpha centauri

I do not think you have grasped what I said, everything within me, physically and mentally is me, that does not include the ground, my house, the driveway , you stop when you have reached the limits of my physical and mental presence.


You exist with?
Great, I think we can get back to the exercise. What do I exist with? Well unlike you Harry, I am not a puny person, I exist with everything. I exist with you and SP ji. I exist not just with my neurosis but with existence itself.

you are taking this out of context, maybe you should get more sleep so you can understand fully my answers, this was in reply to Spji's comment above, taken in that context it makes fine sense.

I am not sure what sense existing with existence actually means, would you care to explain


How many parts do we add or remove from a Range Rover before it stops being a Range Rover?

That is easy, it as per the specifications on delivery from the company that Created it...


What makes it a Range Rover? It's name makes it a range rover. If no one called it a range rover it would cease to be a range rover. So the name is all that matters? The name makes you, you. The name makes me, me. Not my name or your name. The name. You can add things to a name, it is the same, you can subtract things like Sp ji, it is still the same.

nonsense, you cannot stick a Range Rover badge on any car, just as you could not expect to label another human being 'Harry' and expect it to act, behave and think like me. A Range Rover is what it is because of what is under the skin, of what it looks like, it needs to be original and as per specification.

I do not need to understand reincarnation, although it helps when I debate with people like yourself, as it assists in seeing a different point of view, that is all I asked, 5 hours later, I rather wish I had not, its quite a simple answer BhagatJi , Confusedji managed it quite reasonably without all the dramatics

gingerteakaur
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,655
Harry ji,

as it assists in seeing a different point of view
Lol I am showing you a different view and debating with you and you are still complaining about not getting reincarnation definitions from me when all you need it for is to see a different point of view and debate with me. Hahaha

Confusedji managed it quite reasonably without all the dramatics
How ungrateful of you.
:angryyoungsingh:

my physical and mental presence.
That's what I am talking about. Mentally you can be on Mount Everest right now. Mentally you can even be mount everest.
And physically, why do you stop at the level of your skin? Why not keep going?

existing with existence
You are doing it right now.

nonsense, you cannot stick a Range Rover badge on any car
That's what they did. They stuck a range rover badge on some random car they made and called it range rover. -_-
You think if they had called a different car range rover, you would not think that different car is a range rover?
If your parents had named you Happy, would you be Harry?

I am in fact trying to explain reincarnation to you. But we aren't getting past the first steps, including myself because I am stuck with you. As soon as you get to the next step, so do I.

You see in order to understand reincarnation, we must understand the medium by which it operates. We have not understood that yet. But as you say you need not understand reincarnation. You are right. That is true of everything. You need not understand anything. You really don't need to.

Where does that get us however? Where can we go from there? Nowhere. We cannot go anywhere. Let's stay home. That's the I.

Are you with me so far?
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,655
Harry ji,
You think you can pull of his voice? ... or lack thereof?

Reincarnation
After death the soul leaves the body. Before birth the soul enters another body. Which one came first even the soul doesn't know. After birth, during life, it immediately gets engrossed in the world. It forgets it original nature and ceases to see the world as a play. Thus it becomes entangled. It comes and goes from the world trapped in the illusion that it's real. The only way of it's release is to see the world as a play. Seeing it as play, it recognizes itself as the player. This process takes several lifetimes leading to freedom from the play, as the soul starts to see more and more with experience. It sees the play for what it is, a play. It then lives happily ever after. Now this is all within the realm of time, it is all false; the spatial temporal realm is false. Outside of time, reincarnation looks like this.

Now Harry ji, what did you learn from that?
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
54
BhagatSinghji

Many thanks for your short and succinct description of what you call reincarnation, I think it is a workable concept, it certainly explains the way and manner in which you post, and it has assisted me in understanding your core better than I did 7 hours ago, when I first asked the question.

In some respects, I am drawn towards it, because as a concept, it is certainly more attractive than death and dust, and it also goes a far way to explaining the role we all have on this earth, and how we let external stimuli affect us and influence us. However, it is not for me, for the simple reason that I believe our role on this earth is far greater than what amounts to a participation in a soap opera, but, again, many thanks for your time and energy in explaining it to me, and I apologise for my ingratitude

time for a hug? I like hugs mundahug
 
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
BhagatSinghji

Many thanks for your short and succinct description of what you call reincarnation, I think it is a workable concept, it certainly explains the way and manner in which you post, and it has assisted me in understanding your core better than I did 7 hours ago, when I first asked the question.

In some respects, I am drawn towards it, because as a concept, it is certainly more attractive than death and dust, and it also goes a far way to explaining the role we all have on this earth, and how we let external stimuli affect us and influence us. However, it is not for me, for the simple reason that I believe our role on this earth is far greater than what amounts to a participation in a soap opera, but, again, many thanks for your time and energy in explaining it to me, and I apologise for my ingratitude

time for a hug? I like hugs mundahug


I personally don't believe in reincarnation either but I do think that our brother Bhagat has been very patient and articulate in explaining the concept for those of us who do not adhere to it mundahug

This Life for me is the only one we have. Mortality gives meaning to life. The finality of it is for me what makes it so precious, a gift from God.

I believe that each human being existed from all eternity as an idea in the Mind of God. We are made in his Image, and he is our prototype. The idea longs to re-unite with the Prototype.

Reincarnation does not gel well with my philosophy of reality, however I understand why people adhere to it: It hits home the truth of the non-existence of an egoistic self, independent of others, and it allows one to see the spiritual journey as an evolutionary processes of a concious soul over thousands or millions of years of enlightenment process.

However I do not believe in it. mundahug

I believe that the whole concept of human rights founded upon the dignity of the unique human person fits better within life as viewed as one and finite rather than many. Each person is an Image of God and unique; once that person dies, we have lost a unique Person not a mere body inhabitated by a soul that will go onto another body. For me, reincarnation devalues the importance of incarnate, bodily existence and the dignity of each, individual human person. I realize that this is only my perspective, other people such as brother Bhagat do not and should not have to see it that way.

But for me Life is so beautiful and meaningful, from the caterpillar up to the lion, from the walnut to the tree, from the rat to the human being, because it is lived only once and is finite.
 
Last edited:

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,655
Harry ji,
You missed it. The seven hours of thing we were doing, that was it, that was the core.

Maybe next time.

*Hugs*
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
54
I realize that this is only my perspective, other people such as brother Bhagat do not and should not have to see it that way.

maybe we should tie him down and tickle him until he does
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
54
You missed it.

au contraire brother I am well aware of what you were trying to do, however, given we are both 180 degrees apart, unless one of us had said 'STOP' we would still be here now attempting to hold our positions, instead of just sharing what we believe in
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
LOL icecreammunda

I'm sorry - I couldn't resist. I saw you all roped in paradoxes and so thought I'd add my own to the mix. This is a fascinating thread :whatzpointkudi:
I do believe in non-attachment though. Its a keystone of Buddhist, Catholic and Sufi mysticism. That's powerful testimony from many disconnected sacred traditions. Through being attached to nothing as uniquely your own you come to possess all.

Eastern Orthodox mystics say that one should never trust thoughts. According to the Hesychasts thoughts are not really you that is your deepest being. They are a distraction from your true self. In Orthodoxy the goal is to become aware of thoughts and then let them go and focus on your breathing. This way you begin to see thought-patterns that are pulling you in certain directions and keeping you from stillness within.
Bhagat Singh ji, Vouthon ji, Harry ji and all other children in learning icecreammunda

Let your thoughts go so that you may listen to your true self.

Let your thoughts go and let your true self speak.

POSSIBLE RESULT: You will hear things you never heard and you will say things you never said. It may or may not have anything to do with any discourse or dialog also.

You likely will be in a place where you have not been to within yourself and so on. Do come out of it as there is fine line between that place and insanity?

This is not my true self speaking:noticekudi:
Sat Sri Akal.
 
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
Thank you for your very perceptive reply Brother Ambarsaria ji peacesignkaur
I think what I was meaning earlier - or rather not that I was meaning but the hesycasts - is that we of the modern West have been raised with an underlying assumption, summed up in the well-known phrase of Rene Descartes at the beginning of the Enlightenment era: "I think, therefore I am." The worldview of modern rationalism, which has lost an awareness of the unchanging soul in man, leads one to the assumption that our thoughts are what or who we are, and, conversely, that we are the sum total of our thoughts. Therefore, we automatically feel that we have to trust our thoughts, to take a stand for them, to defend them as we would our own life.

This is the underlying falsehood of the modern worldview and psychosis. It is precisely by placing absolute, unmitigated trust in the formulations of the human mind — rather than in the Divine — that modern Western man has come to water down or abandon his once-cherished Christian Faith and indeed embrace mere materialism or atheism.

There is something deeper than our thoughts, a Person made in God's Image, immortal, unchanging because he has his origin and destiny in the Mind of God who will never die.

Sometimes negative thoughts crop into our mind. Its perfectly natural because none of us are perfect. However some people notice these thoughts and identify them as part of their Self. They thus come to the conclusion that Lust is innate to them; that hatred is innate to them; that pride is innate to them; that envy is innate to them when none of these things are. There is no such thing as 'evil', what we call evil is simply the lack of Good which alone exists. And so people lose their true selves, which can only be found in God, and give heed to the false, lower self they have created themselves.

Thought leads to thought patterns, which leads to identity with those thoughts, which leads to a mask covering the true purity within, the pure relection of God in the spark of our soul.

Rarely are people true to themselves. They become what they think they are, rather than who they truly are because they allow life experiences, habits, the way the dress, the food they eat, the friends they hang around with, and the thoughts they think "define" them rather than seek for definition of themselves in God.

We human beings wear so many masks of our own creation.

We take refuge in our thoughts, fantasies and emotions because they provide us with a deceptive sense of security and self-sufficiency. But Christ tells us to abandon that security and make ourselves vulnerable, relying wholly on our Creator. Both Christ and Lao Tzu, the founder of Taoism (a Chinese religion), likened this state of self-abandonment to the will of God in the present moment to the mind of a little child who has not yet developed a mature ego.... "Become as little children," they said.

A child is much more in synch with the true Origin of knowing than is an adult. Simple and spontaneous, the little child knows without knowing how he knows. He can be happy without knowing he is happy. Isn't that beautiful and wondrous? He just IS. What adults often consider joy or contentment is in truth the emotional excitement of their ego; while a little child's happiness consists in the simple, selfless joy of being alive.

When Christ told each person to "deny himself" and "lose his life," he was not suggesting that one obliterate the conscious mind, thereby denying our unique Personhood as some New Agey type people seem to want to do. Rather, he was telling us to purify it by casting off the false ego that has grown on it like a parasite and which is covering it. Thinking, imagining, dreaming and emotion are not destroyed, rather they are wholly submitted to the higher Will of God.



"...Prayer cannot be pure if the mind is actively engaged in following thoughts. For prayer to be pure, it must arise from a pure spirit, or nous, and this can only occur when one first stands watch, and thus rises above thoughts and images...The holy fathers of the Orthodox Church say that man was created in a state of pristine simplicity—pure awareness. In the beginning, his thoughts and memories were not diversified and fragmented as they are today, but were simple and one-pointed. He knew no mental distraction. While being wiser than any human being today, he was in a state of innocence, like a child, and in this state he lived in deep personal communion with God, and in harmony with the rest of creation.
Being in such close communion with God, primordial man participated directly in God’s grace, which he experienced as a divine and ineffable light dwelling within his very being...
With man’s departure from the Way, he lost the primal simplicity and became fragmented. His awareness was no longer single and one-pointed. As St. Macarius the Great wrote in the 4th century, “Man’s thoughts became base and material, and the simplicity and goodness of his mind were entertwined with evil, worldly concerns.” Also with his departure from the Way, man fell under the illusion of his self-sufficiency. Before, when he had lived in communion with God, he did not regard himself as self-sufficient. Living in harmony with the Way, he had acted spontaneously, without striving and without self-interest. When he stepped away from God, he fell to the lie that he could exist of himself. This is a lie, because without God willing him into existence, he would be nothing at all. Now man acted with calculation, no longer spontaneously, striving for the sake of personal gain, and pitting himself against others. Man had been made to desire and to seek God, to rise ever higher toward God in the communion of love. But when he departed from the Way, he fell to love of himself, and to desire for created things. Since the desire for created things is against man’s original nature, it leads to suffering. It can never bring true, complete, and lasting happiness..."

- Hieromonk Damascene, Eastern Catholic (or "Orthodox") mystic
 
Last edited:

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
Vouthon brother there is great wisdom in your post but I will comment on just one point you noted.
We take refuge in our thoughts, fantasies and emotions because they provide us with a deceptive sense of security and self-sufficiency. But Christ tells us to abandon that security and make ourselves vulnerable, relying wholly on our Creator. Both Christ and Lao Tzu, the founder of Taoism (a Chinese religion), likened this state of self-abandonment to the will of God in the present moment to the mind of a little child who has not yet developed a mature ego.... "Become as little children," they said.

A child is much more in synch with true the Origin of knowing than is an adult. Simple and spontaneous, the little child knows without knowing how he knows. He can be happy without knowing he is happy. Isn't that beautiful and wondrous? He just IS. What adults often consider joy or contentment is in truth the emotional excitement of their ego; while a little child's happiness consists in the simple, selfless joy of being alive.
True I is who we are when we are born. A little seed of a soul or just a little root transplanted in creator's ways.

There is little difference between a root or foliage in a child as it all is one and the same.
When the I becomes me and basically
me is what is above ground versus I now being underground, me has, me wants, me gives, me loves, me destroys, etc. The distance between I which is still there versus me expands. One's who can relate to the I and reflect it in their me have found what billions have been searching for. Those who live in the closeness between the I and me go on to becomes the people of wisdom, saints, and the persona of spirituality.

Just some loose ramblings.

Regards. kaurhug
 
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
Vouthon brother there is great wisdom in your post but I will comment on just one point you noted.True I is who we are when we are born. A little seed of a soul or just a little root transplanted in creator's ways.

There is little difference between a root or foliage in a child as it all is one and the same. When the I becomes me and basically me is what is above ground versus I now being underground, me has, me wants, me gives, me loves, me destroys, etc. The distance between I which is still there versus me expands. One's who can relate to the I and reflect it in their me have found what billions have been searching for. Those who live in the closeness between the I and me go on to becomes the people of wisdom, saints, and the persona of spirituality.

Just some loose ramblings.

Regards. kaurhug

BRAVO! What you have written above is very meaningful and profound to me, not loose ramblings. I think that you have touched the heart of spirituality.

Wow! That is a beautiful and very deep understanding of the relationship between what I would call the Higher and lower self. You have been able to express in a paragraph what I have been trying, but failing adequately, to explain in a massive post. I think that you have hit the nail on the head brother Ambarsaria ji! I just love how you understood exactly what I was trying to say and distilled the essence, the gem if you like, the needle in my haystack. You are brilliant!

I consider the fragmentation between these two to be at the root of all human suffering. Human beings are out of harmony. We are at war within ourselves. The goal of the spiritual seeker should not be to destroy the lower self ("me") but rather reconcile it, harmonize it with your Higher self ("I"). The problem I have with Hinduism and Buddhism is that often it seems like they strive for self-obliteration ie no thoughts, imagings, emotions, desires which would lead to insanity and no joy in living not to mention lose of Personhood.

There was a truly wonderful Catholic mystic called Blessed Juliana of Norwich (ca. 1342 – ca. 1416) who lived in England. She is regarded as one of the most important Catholic mystics and is even quoted as an authority in the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the current Pope, Benedict XVI, dedicated a whole Sunday morning sermon to talk about her just over a year ago. You can read this talk of the Pope on her here: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20101201_en.html

Through Blessed Juliana I learned about the distinction between what she calls the Substance and Sensuality within man - which corresponds roughly to what I call the Higher and lower self and what you refer to brilliantly as "I" and "me". I often associate the Substance with the human spirit, that God-breathed aspect of the soul that is directed towards and lifts itself up to God at all times; as distinct from the lower self (the Sensuality) which is our ordinary physical and psychological life, which matures as we develop and can become misdirected and obscured by ego. Our essential selfhood, our substance, our "I" is eternally united with God from whom it flows forth, though we are not always aware of it. Our sensuality is different, indeed it is very far from always being united with God. In each of us, Juliana tells us, lies the higher, inner self and the lower self. When our sensuality - the 'Me' - is not focused on God as the centre of our lives, then we are broken and fragmented because the higher self and the lower self are out of tune with each other. The task of spirituality is the reunifiction of our sensuality (our 'me') with our substance (our "I") so that we can become whole again in God. This is called sometimes The Little Way of Spiritual Childhood.

Do you know the word "salvation"? It comes from the Koine Greek word sozo which means "to make whole again". peacesign A lot of Christians don't understand this because they read the Bible in English translations and do not know the meaning of the original words.

So in brief: Our essential self is always united with God, no matter how we feel or what we are concious of or what we do, it is the essential Ground of our Being which constitutes our selfhood, flowing from Being Itself, and no matter what we do it is always still what is.

But our sensuality can be directed elsewhere, as it often is, away from God. This fragmentation must be healed. Our sensuality (Our "me") is focused away from God and fragmented from our substance ("I") and so we are divided against ourselves.

We are created with a natural, in-built orientation to God in our inmost self, and are at odds with ourselves until this orientation is made the focus of our whole life, integrating our sensuality with our substance, which is always united with God.

And I agree, it is when this wholeness between I and Me is regained, that a Saint or enlightened being is born :sippingcoffeemunda:

Two perfect exemplars of this are the great Catholic mystic Saint Francis of Assisi and Jalal'u'ddin Rumi, the greatest mystic of the Islamic world. Saint Francis had been a rich, selfish playboy knight until at the age of 25, when - imprisioned by an army attacking his home town of Assisi - he had an incredible spiritual experience which changed his life forever, and which a few days later led him to see God in a leper whose face and body had been destroyed by the disease. At first repulsed, Francis then went down and kissed the leper and renounced all claims to his father's inheritance. Thus a Saint was born. In the Islamic world, Rumi had been until the age of 37 an Islamic scholar and jurist, skilled in Hadith - Shariah Law - but lacking any spirituality whatsoever, having merely outward religion and intellect. And then he met a wandering Sufi mystic called Shams and somehow he was awakened to his Higher Self. Shams later died, some say killed, and Rumi was overpowered with grief. But in his grief he started to whirl, to dance, and through this the Islamic lawyer was transformed into a God-intoxicated devotee of the religion of Love alone.

Both Francis and Rumi were alive at the same time and although separated by geography, culture and birth-religion they essentially awakened to the same truth. In this same 13th century, Meister Eckhart was also born in Germany and he too, this Dominican scholar and Professor of Catholic theology, became a God-intoxicated mystic.

Read:


"...Very few in Western society in our time would deny that we are individually and collectively fragmented. That is obvious enough from the mess and muddle of our lives and the society around us. Juliana would say the root of all this is that we are quite literally heart-broken. Our heart, our being, is split in two by the division between our substance and our sensuality. Human wholeness can never be achieved until this brokeness is healed. Our substance is always united to God; but our sensuality all too easily focuses on other things, most obviously on ourselves. We may call this sin, or brokeness or soul-sickness, or alienation; but whatever term we use, there is a fracture at the centre of our Personhood, the deep wound which divides us from ourselves and makes us hurting and hurtful people, spreading pain like an infectious disease in which everyone contaminates everyone else...Turning from God is turning from our deepest self. Because our substance is essentially united with God whether we know it or not, and because that is constitutive of our being human at all, the denial of God in our lives actually is the denial of our deepest reality. Juliana goes so far as to say that a person who persists in this denial ultimately annihilates himself or herself..."

- Grace Jantzen, Julian of Norwich: Mystic and Theologian
 
Last edited:

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
Riddle me this ,Riddle me that ,it's a fact,he was me and I was he.
Scarlet veer I think this is for Harry veer and he may have something to relate regarding Hess too with Half man/half wolf face. Me occasionally talk to I and I rarely changes, me changes :singhbhangra: :tablakudi: all the time.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Luckysingh

Writer
SPNer
Dec 3, 2011
1,634
2,758
Vancouver
....... The only way of it's release is to see the world as a play. Seeing it as play, it recognizes itself as the player. This process takes several lifetimes leading to freedom from the play, as the soul starts to see more and more with experience. It sees the play for what it is, a play. It then lives happily ever after........

Now Harry ji, what did you learn from that?

Harry ji take note,
You obviously have a few more lifetimes to go through before your soul acknowledges it's purpose, reincarnation and the life of play.
Bhagat ji's understanding puts him a few lifetimes ahead:interestedmunda:

Maybe once the soul realizes exactly what it is and accepts the play as play, so to say, then it can depart from the bodily reincarnations and live happily ever after.....!!

Lets say that the 'soul' goes through these experiences in different lives as reincarnations to develop by learning through these experiences.
Once it has developed and learnt, then it can be out the cycle and at 'the happily ever after' stage, as Bhagat ji said.

BUT, how can one know what stage their 'soul' is at in this development ???
Well, all I know is that I'm not at the 'happily ever after' as yet.
 

❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM

❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM

📌 For all latest updates, follow the Official Sikh Philosophy Network Whatsapp Channel:
Top