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As A Sikh Do You Ever Ask When Hurting Or Feeling Low, God/Creator, Why Me?

How you cope spiritually and in your mind to negative feelings?

  • I believe it is Karma from many lives before that I am paying for.

    Votes: 7 15.9%
  • I believe I am just reaping what I sow in this life.

    Votes: 4 9.1%
  • Up/down is being human and creator is neither partial nor vengeful.

    Votes: 14 31.8%
  • I am thankful for what I have versus be sorry for what is not perfect.

    Votes: 10 22.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 9 20.5%

  • Total voters
    44

Luckysingh

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Dyelasi ji

It's nice to have people from all different backgrounds to communicate with. I understand your interest in sikhism and that is good.
From what I know, native Indians believe that a human consists of equal parts of mind, body and soul and also that all life forms such as creatures and nature are creations of One true creator or God.
The sikhism belief is also very similar in terms of just the One true lord.
Spirituality is a huge part of indian culture that it overlaps so closely that to some it seems like a religion.
In a similar way, sikhism and khalsa is more a way of life rather than being charachterised by praying and rituals.
Attaining control over mind helps one achieve more spirituality in both cases and regarding all of creation as sacred.
 

findingmyway

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Something a partially sighted patient said to me has stuck with me and inspired me. She said a lot of people exclaim Why Me when coming to difficult patches in their life. Her reply was why not?! If we don't want it to be me then by definition someone else should suffer so indeed why not me? Life's challenges have to be dealt with and not cried over. That's just the way it is! That is my attempt at being chardi kala :mundaviolin:
 

Inderjeet Kaur

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I try to remember to ask for greater strength to endure. I've learned from experience that hard times are times of great learning if I can get through them.gingerteakaur

I'm not exactly a saint, though. At times, especially when I'm in pain, like right now, it's really hard not to succumb to self-pity. Usually turning on the news channels will cure me, at least temporarily.
 

Harry Haller

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Sis ,Saints have to Soldier on ,that is why we are Saint-Soldiers, you cannot have one without the other,pain is just the chisel that carves your character-Self, it will make you or break you.

Spji,

I find this a tiny bit Abrahamic given the multitude of people around the world in pain. I did not realise pain was rated so highly as a means of character formation............
 

Inderjeet Kaur

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Sis ,Saints have to Soldier on ,that is why we are Saint-Soldiers, you cannot have one without the other,pain is just the chisel that carves your character-Self, it will make you or break you.

A soldier who is not a saint is a brute.
A saint who is not a soldier is a weakling.
Our Guru Sahiban were very wise!

I accept necessary pain as a learning experience. I believe a certain amount of pain of various sorts - physical, emotional, spiritual - is part of the human experience and unavoidable. I believe pain is part of the natural order; I do not believe Akal Purakh sends us pain to test or strengthen us

We can choose to use pain to grow stronger or be broken by it - or both. We can be broken and recover and become stronger than before.

Of course, some people seem to be innately stronger and some weaker. It is not for the stronger to denigrate and humiliate the weaker. It is then for the stronger to lift up the weaker and help them gain strength, so we all gain.

Excuse me now, I'm in a lot of pain and must go take a Vicodin before it gets so bad I can't walk.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Spji,

I find this a tiny bit Abrahamic given the multitude of people around the world in pain. I did not realise pain was rated so highly as a means of character formation............

Musketeer funny you should say that as Abraham means father of the multitude.

I see you have an aversion to Abraham .These are the attributes of God in Christianity is he that different?.

Aseity
Eternity
Graciousness
Holiness
Immanence
Immutability
Impassibility
Impeccability
Incorporeality
Love
Mission
Omnibenevolence
Omnipotence
Omnipresence
Omniscience
Oneness
Providence
Righteousness
Simplicity
Transcendence
Trinity
Veracity
Wrath
 
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Harry Haller

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Musketeer funny you should say that as Abraham means father of the multitude.

I see you have an aversion to Abraham .These are the attributes of God in Christianity is he that different?.

Aseity
Eternity
Graciousness
Holiness
Immanence
Immutability
Impassibility
Impeccability
Incorporeality
Love
Mission
Omnibenevolence
Omnipotence
Omnipresence
Omniscience
Oneness
Providence
Righteousness
Simplicity
Transcendence
Trinity
Veracity
Wrath

Firstly, I have never found Creator to be wrathful, secondly, the Abrahamic god has form, gets angry, plays mind games, demands respect and is capable of great destruction. Yes, I do think he is that different.......
 

BhagatSingh

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Harry ji,
The Creator-tion (Creator-Creation complex) is in complete Oneness (non-descriptive) until the Oneness is seen as duality. In duality the Creator (is perceived as one who) loves and gets angry and becomes destructive and protective towards His Creation and all that juicy stuff. Recall the story of Prahlaad. For Prahlaad's protection, the Creator exploded out of the pillar (was perceived in duality) as a Man-Lion and unleashed His wrath on the Demon king.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Firstly, I have never found Creator to be wrathful, secondly, the Abrahamic god has form, gets angry, plays mind games, demands respect and is capable of great destruction. Yes, I do think he is that different.......<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Veera He was angry back in Biblical times but by the time Sikhism started he had calmed down.
 

Harry Haller

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Veera He was angry back in Biblical times but by the time Sikhism started he had calmed down.

In Sikhism, Creator is formless, without hate, judges everyone to be equal, be they homosexual or female, I know its all very 'right on' to view God/Creator as the same in all religions, but I find the Abrahamic God to be a completely different concept from that which Guru Nanak Ji gave us, both in description, personality and order.
 
Feb 23, 2012
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Firstly, I have never found Creator to be wrathful, secondly, the Abrahamic god has form, gets angry, plays mind games, demands respect and is capable of great destruction. Yes, I do think he is that different.......

Dearest Harry :)

"...Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God...Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them...There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love..."

- 1 John 4:18 (Holy Bible)



Is this really a fair assesment of the Christian conception of God? It is not the conception of God espoused by Jesus or the Church Fathers or Saints of the Catholic Churches. It is not the God I believe in or worship.

Catholicism teaches us that God is everywhere; that he is Unknowable in essence; that He is Love itself in the plenitude of his nature without any trace or shred of hatred; that he loves all, whether humans consider them good or bad; that he sustains all and that he is ultimately nothingness.

I believe that the Creator is unknowable and inexpressible in his essence. He is pure spirit. No one has ever seen God. None can ever know him as he is in Himself. We will never and can never fully understand God. In this sense God is impersonal, transcendent, above and beyond all conceptions of human thought or imagination. In the very truest sense, God does not really "exist" in the way we do. For from Him came all things in existence, and so he is not Himself a "thing", not a created reality, rather he is "nothing" - that is "no-thing". In this sense there is a distiction between Creator and creature.

And yet in a different way, God is also - without being paradoxical - knowable. He is closer to us than our own soul. He is our very being, the ground of our being, the First Cause from which springs all created reality. He is known to us through the imprint of his being which lives and moves and breathes in and through all things. He is known to us through ourselves - for our bodies are the Temples within which his Holy Spirit dwells. We are made in his Image, and so he is known to us through other human beings. God is Love and so all who love are born of God and know God. In every perfect act of human love, we see God. He enlightens all men who are in the world, who ever have been in the world and who will ever be.

In this sense God is not separate from ourselves, and there is no distinction between Him and us. This is what Meister Eckhart understood when he exclaimed: "The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love. Your human nature and that of the divine Word are no different.” (Meister Eckhart)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


This is from the Baltimore Catechism published in the 1870s and 1880s, that was taught to all Catholic school children throughout the United States and internationally and was the an authoritative compilation of Catholic doctrine:


"... 164. What do we mean when we say God is "infinitely perfect"?

A. When we say God is "infinitely perfect" we mean there is no limit or bounds to His perfection; for He possesses all good qualities in the highest possible degree and He alone is "infinitely perfect."


Q. 165. Had God a beginning?

A. God had no beginning; He always was and He always will be.

Q. 166. Where is God?

A. God is everywhere.

Q. 167. How is God everywhere?

A. God is everywhere whole and entire as He is in any one place. This is true and we must believe it, though we cannot understand it.

Q. 168. If God is everywhere, why do we not see Him?

A. We do not see God, because He is a pure spirit and cannot be seen with bodily eyes.

Q. 169. Why do we call God a "pure spirit'?

A. We call God a pure spirit because He has no body. Our soul is a spirit, but not a "pure" spirit, because it was created for union with our body.

Q. 170. Why can we not see God with the eyes of our body?

A. We cannot see God with the eyes of our body because they are created to see only material things, and God is not material but spiritual..."


- The Baltimore Catechism (1885), (then) authoritative compilation of Catholic teachings


Catholicism has a rich spiritual tradition with a sacramental vision of reality that sees God's presence in everything, everwhere and in everyone.

To quote a doctor of the Church:


"...God said unto me: I gleam in the waters, and I burn in the sun, moon and stars. With every breeze I awaken everything to life...Oh fire of the Holy Spirit, life of the life of every creature, holy are you in giving life to forms ...Oh boldest path, penetrating into all places, in the heights, on earth, and in every abyss, you bring and bind together. From you clouds flow, air flies, Rocks have their humours, Rivers spring forth from the waters And earth wears her green vigour... Human beings cannot live without the rest of nature, they must care for all natural things...Then creation recognized its Creator in its own forms and appearances. For in the beginning, when God said, "Let it be!" and it came to pass, the means and the Matrix of creation was Love, because all creation was formed through Her as in the twinkling of an eye...Do not mock anything God has created. All creation is simple, plain and good. And God is present throughout his creation. Why do you ever consider things beneath your notice? God's justice is to be found in every detail of what he has made...No creature has meaning without the Word of God. God's Word is in all creation, visible and invisible. The Word is living, being, spirit, all verdant greening, all creativity. This Word flashes out in every creature. This is how the spirit is in the flesh—the Word is indivisible from God..."

- Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), philosopher, mystic, visionary, artist, poet, composer, theologian and Doctor of the Catholic Church


"...The fullness of joy is to behold God in everything..."

- Blessed Julian of Norwich (1342 –1416), Catholic mystic


"...The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw and knew I saw all things in God and God in all things..."

- Saint Mechthild of Madgeburg (c. 1207 – c. 1282/1294)



Dearest brother Harry, do you find these Catholic teachings objectionable? Do you think that we do not worship the same God as Sikhs?

Certainly I believe that Catholics and Sikhs worship one and the same God; as do Muslims, Hindus etc.

We might have varying understandings of Him, but there are common, universal expressions as well and I find nothing in the Catholic conception of God that is not in tune with Sikhism apart from the obvious exceptions of the Incarnation of God in Christ and the Trinity.
 
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Ambarsaria

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Vouthon Veer/Brother ji I have some comments. I am sure Harry veer will answer too as you requested.
Dearest brother Harry, do you find these Catholic teachings objectionable?Do you think that we do not worship the same God as Sikhs?
Vouthon ji I am actually shocked at closeness of thought between Catholicism quotes that you post versus what I understand of Sikhism thoughts. I believe we are closer than we are far.

I believe the issues come up in the delivery of the message or the definition of someone chosen to represent God/creator. Sikhism does not associate with the concept of someone speaking on behalf of or so chosen to speak for God/creator at variance to all humanity. Sikhism without reservation recognizes all as one in the court of God/creator (i.e. the creation we are part of). There is place for the wise, the learned, the pious, but not being any closely associated with God/creator versus any man/woman/child on the street. They just may have better developed understanding.

Certainly I believe that Catholics and Sikhs worship one and the same God; as do Muslims, Hindus etc.
Vouthon ji the issue is not about God/creator but its personification, its idolization, access control to God/creator through messengers of God, deities representing God, the institutions set up to organize and exploit the common person and indoctrinate them in the name of God/creator.

This is equivalent to the phrase that "devil is in the detail".

So the details in Catholics, Muslims, Hindus are significantly different and these detail destroy any commonness that may be at the origin.

This is the dilemma!
Technically if all Sikhs, Catholics, Hidus, Muslims stayed to the one creator/God much defined as formless and pretty close in essence between Sikhism and Catholicism, then whole world could all be Sikhs. It appears Sikhs have stuck to the source while others have then elaborated and created divisions.

At least that is what I think!
icecreamkaur
We might have varying understandings of Him, but there are common, universal expressions as well and I find nothing in the Catholic conception of God that is not in tune with Sikhism apart from the obvious exceptions of the Incarnation of God in Christ and the Trinity.
Thank you very well put.

One has to think how big a divide it creates. I believe it creates a big one philosophically that becomes segregational when implemented to make Sikhs as Sikhs and Catholics as Catholics.


Regards and always enjoy your posts.
 
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Luckysingh

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Firstly, I have never found Creator to be wrathful, secondly, the Abrahamic god has form, gets angry, plays mind games, demands respect and is capable of great destruction. Yes, I do think he is that different.......

I'm sorry, I'm not sure you really mean this because I find it difficult to agree.
I've always assumed all these references are for the same One God, wether abrahamic or not.
This view is more familiar with the extreme islamic view that some have today.
I probably wouldn't have had any faith today if it were not for the teachings of Jesus that I learnt when younger. I simply cannot deny any teachings of the bible even though it is not my chosen faith.
Let's not forget that it's similar views to this, that end up starting wars and world wars.
 
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Feb 23, 2012
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Thanks for your reply brother Ambarsaria! :whatzpointkudi:
I'll get back to you tommorrow! An excellent post! A lot to ponder 0:)

I leave you with this, from one of my favourite Catholic mystical poets Gerard Manley Hopkins, S.J. (28 July 1844 – 8 June 1889) who was an English poet, Roman Catholic convert, and Jesuit priest. Its two poems of his - the first called, "God's Grandeur - The World is Charged with the Grandeur of God" and the second, "Pied Beauty".

Gerard Manley Hopkins - God's Grandeur - YouTube

Gerard Manley Hopkins - Pied Beauty - YouTube


<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=601 bgColor=#ffffff align=center><TBODY><TR><TD align=center>7. God’s Grandeur</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><!-- END CHAPTERTITLE --></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width=601 bgColor=#ffffff align=center><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=center><!-- BEGIN CHAPTER --><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>T[SIZE=-1]HE WORLD[/SIZE] is charged with the grandeur of God.</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[SIZE=-2]5[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>And for all this, nature is never spent;</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[SIZE=-2]10[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>And though the last lights off the black West went</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs—</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Because the Holy Ghost over the bent</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=601 bgColor=#ffffff align=center><TBODY><TR><TD align=center>13. Pied Beauty</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><!-- END CHAPTERTITLE --></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width=601 bgColor=#ffffff align=center><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=center><!-- BEGIN CHAPTER --><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>G[SIZE=-1]LORY[/SIZE] be to God for dappled things—</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow;</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim;</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches’ wings;</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Landscape plotted and pieced—fold, fallow, and plough;</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[SIZE=-2]5[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>And áll trádes, their gear and tackle and trim.</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>All things counter, original, spare, strange;</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?)</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim;</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>He fathers-forth whose beauty is past change:</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[SIZE=-2]10[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD>Praise him.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
If anyone whats to read more about Him and his poetry then you can check out this book by Skylight publications:

Amazon.com: Hopkins: The Mystic Poets (Mystic Poets Series) eBook: Gerard Manley Hopkins, Thomas Ryan: Kindle Store

The blurb says:


"...Gerard Manley Hopkins, Catholic mystical poet, is beloved for his use of fresh language and startling metaphors to describe the world around him. Beneath the surface of this lovely verse lies a searching soul, wrestling with and yearning for God. Hopkins writes from a Catholic Christian background, and yet his themes speak to people of all faiths who seek a deeper understanding of the presence of God in all of life. This beautiful sampling of Hopkins's poetry offers a glimpse into his unique spiritual vision that continues to inspire readers throughout the world. The poems unite his two devotions, presenting mystical images of God in the natural world, which serve as a window through which you might also begin to see the Divine Presence in the world around you..."
 
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Harry Haller

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Dearest Harry :)

"...Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God...Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them...There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love..."

- 1 John 4:18 (Holy Bible)



Is this really a fair assesment of the Christian conception of God? It is not the conception of God espoused by Jesus or the Church Fathers or Saints of the Catholic Churches. It is not the God I believe in or worship.

Catholicism teaches us that God is everywhere; that he is Unknowable in essence; that He is Love itself in the plenitude of his nature without any trace or shred of hatred; that he loves all, whether humans consider them good or bad; that he sustains all and that he is ultimately nothingness.

I believe that the Creator is unknowable and inexpressible in his essence. He is pure spirit. No one has ever seen God. None can ever know him as he is in Himself. We will never and can never fully understand God. In this sense God is impersonal, transcendent, above and beyond all conceptions of human thought or imagination. In the very truest sense, God does not really "exist" in the way we do. For from Him came all things in existence, and so he is not Himself a "thing", not a created reality, rather he is "nothing" - that is "no-thing". In this sense there is a distiction between Creator and creature.

And yet in a different way, God is also - without being paradoxical - knowable. He is closer to us than our own soul. He is our very being, the ground of our being, the First Cause from which springs all created reality. He is known to us through the imprint of his being which lives and moves and breathes in and through all things. He is known to us through ourselves - for our bodies are the Temples within which his Holy Spirit dwells. We are made in his Image, and so he is known to us through other human beings. God is Love and so all who love are born of God and know God. In every perfect act of human love, we see God. He enlightens all men who are in the world, who ever have been in the world and who will ever be.

In this sense God is not separate from ourselves, and there is no distinction between Him and us. This is what Meister Eckhart understood when he exclaimed: "The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love. Your human nature and that of the divine Word are no different.” (Meister Eckhart)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


This is from the Baltimore Catechism published in the 1870s and 1880s, that was taught to all Catholic school children throughout the United States and internationally and was the an authoritative compilation of Catholic doctrine:


"... 164. What do we mean when we say God is "infinitely perfect"?

A. When we say God is "infinitely perfect" we mean there is no limit or bounds to His perfection; for He possesses all good qualities in the highest possible degree and He alone is "infinitely perfect."


Q. 165. Had God a beginning?

A. God had no beginning; He always was and He always will be.

Q. 166. Where is God?

A. God is everywhere.

Q. 167. How is God everywhere?

A. God is everywhere whole and entire as He is in any one place. This is true and we must believe it, though we cannot understand it.

Q. 168. If God is everywhere, why do we not see Him?

A. We do not see God, because He is a pure spirit and cannot be seen with bodily eyes.

Q. 169. Why do we call God a "pure spirit'?

A. We call God a pure spirit because He has no body. Our soul is a spirit, but not a "pure" spirit, because it was created for union with our body.

Q. 170. Why can we not see God with the eyes of our body?

A. We cannot see God with the eyes of our body because they are created to see only material things, and God is not material but spiritual..."


- The Baltimore Catechism (1885), (then) authoritative compilation of Catholic teachings


Catholicism has a rich spiritual tradition with a sacramental vision of reality that sees God's presence in everything, everwhere and in everyone.

To quote a doctor of the Church:


"...God said unto me: I gleam in the waters, and I burn in the sun, moon and stars. With every breeze I awaken everything to life...Oh fire of the Holy Spirit, life of the life of every creature, holy are you in giving life to forms ...Oh boldest path, penetrating into all places, in the heights, on earth, and in every abyss, you bring and bind together. From you clouds flow, air flies, Rocks have their humours, Rivers spring forth from the waters And earth wears her green vigour... Human beings cannot live without the rest of nature, they must care for all natural things...Then creation recognized its Creator in its own forms and appearances. For in the beginning, when God said, "Let it be!" and it came to pass, the means and the Matrix of creation was Love, because all creation was formed through Her as in the twinkling of an eye...Do not mock anything God has created. All creation is simple, plain and good. And God is present throughout his creation. Why do you ever consider things beneath your notice? God's justice is to be found in every detail of what he has made...No creature has meaning without the Word of God. God's Word is in all creation, visible and invisible. The Word is living, being, spirit, all verdant greening, all creativity. This Word flashes out in every creature. This is how the spirit is in the flesh—the Word is indivisible from God..."

- Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), philosopher, mystic, visionary, artist, poet, composer, theologian and Doctor of the Catholic Church


"...The fullness of joy is to behold God in everything..."

- Blessed Julian of Norwich (1342 –1416), Catholic mystic


"...The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw and knew I saw all things in God and God in all things..."

- Saint Mechthild of Madgeburg (c. 1207 – c. 1282/1294)



Dearest brother Harry, do you find these Catholic teachings objectionable? Do you think that we do not worship the same God as Sikhs?

Certainly I believe that Catholics and Sikhs worship one and the same God; as do Muslims, Hindus etc.

We might have varying understandings of Him, but there are common, universal expressions as well and I find nothing in the Catholic conception of God that is not in tune with Sikhism apart from the obvious exceptions of the Incarnation of God in Christ and the Trinity.

Vouthonji

I have long admired your writings, you write extremely well, I even quote from some of your posts to my Christian Customers.

Firstly, let us take the concept of love, your quote 4:18 sums up beautifully the concept of love, however, I have to admit to being extremely wary of people that are flowing with love, my life experience has taught me that those that shower love, invariably have an equal affliction for showering anger, for God to also possess this facet of personality, I find extremely hard to accept. This duality surely can be possessed by human and animal kind, but by God?

I realised you are quoting from the ESV Bible, so to be consistent, I have used the same version.

Nahum 1:2-8
English Standard Version (ESV)
God's Wrath Against Nineveh

The Lord is a jealous and avenging God;the Lord is avenging and wrathful;
the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers;
Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him;the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble;
he knows those who take refuge in him. But with an overflowing flood
he will make a complete end of the adversaries, and will pursue his enemies into darkness.


At the end of the day, one can quote from stories, publishings, rumours, hearsay, etc etc etc, but in the same way that as a Sikh, I have to give the final authority to the SGGS, surely as a Catholic, you must accept the above without dispute.

I personally do not think you are Catholic per se, I think you are heretic Catholic, I think, like me, you do not accept the emperors new clothes.

If we are talking about you, I find you extremely enlightened for your age, and your posts are extremely thought provoking and agreeable, however, I find the description of GOD as stated above to be based on fear and intimidation, rather than love and inclusion.

peacesignkaur
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
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I'm sorry, I'm not sure you really mean this because I find it difficult to agree.
I've always assumed all these references are for the same One God, wether abrahamic or not.
This view is more familiar with the extreme islamic view that some have today.
I probably wouldn't have had any faith today if it were not for the teachings of Jesus that I learnt when younger. I simply cannot deny any teachings of the bible even though it is not my chosen faith.
Let's not forget that it's similar views to this, that end up starting wars and world wars.

Sikhs have never started a war, that is not the style of Sikhism, however, Sikhism stands as a different animal altogether from the herd. And yes, Luckyji, I really do mean it, otherwise I would not write it!

Again, I am aware it is 'right on' and 'modern' to be all inclusive and see the good in everything, but each religion offers a completely different mindset to the next, this is possibly why those that follow all religions invariably end up going round in circles.

Let us sum up the point of the main ones together with the conclusion.

Christianity -All have sinned and are thereby separated from God. Salvation is through faith in Christ and, for some, sacraments and good works. Conclusion-Eternal heaven or hell (or temporary purgatory)

Hinduism-Humans are in bondage to ignorance and illusion, but are able to escape. Purpose is to gain release from rebirth, or at least a better rebirth.Conclusion-Reincarnation until gain enlightenment.

Islam-Humans must submit (islam) to the will of God to gain Paradise after death.Conclusion-Paradise or Hell.

And finally, Sikhism as I see it, given my current understanding

There is no sin, and no separation from God. Salvation is through adherence mentally and physically to Hukam, the order of the world, this salvation is able to be realised on a daily basis and without judgement, rituals, pleasing God. Conclusion- Death, but you live on through your actions and those you have touched.

So which you worship? the God that installs fear in you, the God that gives you a second chance? the God that bribes you? or the God that pretty much leaves you alone to live your life as per an advised existence with no reward other than doing the right thing, the truthful thing. I guess each has its merits, and I have no ruck with anyone lauding any path and following it, but how does chopping and changing from each path work?, or believing in all paths, if I were to accept each description of God, then what happens when I die? How do I converse with God, as a friend?, as a lover?, as an angry father? as a strict teacher? Do I worry about pleasing God? Do I worry about letting God down? Am I fearful of angering God?

As a Sikh, God is my best friend, my lover, its a cosmic thing, being in the order of the universe, stepping on footprints that are already there to guide me, and if I do not, then I suffer the consequences, not from wrath, or anger, but just consequences, from an order that works like clockwork, not an order that is at the whim of someone that clearly may need anger therapy
 
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
Dear brother Harry mundahug​


Thank you most kindly my good sir! I appeciate this very much.You have provided me with an excellent post, and I more than sympathise with the points that you have raised. Allow me to offer some of my own thoughts.​

I will take it in parts.​

Firstly, on the concept of love.​


"...The biblical image of love is not an emotion or feeling, but it is the glue and the motivator for each person to pursue a more Christ-like way of life...This bold Christian view of love demonstrates clearly that it cannot be reduced to emotion. Love looks like something. Here, St. Paul describes it with poetic detail. He tells what love is – patient, kind, enduring– as well as what it is not – jealous, pompous, inflated, rude, quick-tempered. The reading also foretells what happens when love is absent. Without it, lives and relationships are like a noisy gong. We can accumulate things, be showered with gifts, and even give things away, yet without love, all is worthless... A love that Christ demonstrates by dying for all of us is a bond of love that cannot be broken by anything – earthly, supernatural, or otherwise..."

- Father Darren M. Henson, a Catholic priest of the Archdiocese of Kansas City


I believe that you are talking about people who are driven solely by their emotions. A lot of Catholic teaching warns against being too emotional since as you say such a person given to extremities of love will also, by contrast, often be driven to extreme shows of anger if a negative circumstance were too arise, or if the object of their obsessive love were to spurn and reject it, which would often lead that so-called 'love' to take a jealous, wrathful turn. A good example of this is the character of Shakespeare's Othello. At the very start of the play he is over-the-top, ecstastically in love with his wife Desdemona. His love is demonstrative, powerfully affectionate and seems to consume Him. But when he suspects wrongly, fooled by his manipulative friend Iago, that Desdemona has cheated on Him with another man, he becomes vile and abusive towards her, violent and taciturn - which results in Him tragically strangling her to death at the end of the play before then committing suicide when he learns that she was innocent. Its a tragic but skilful depiction of a man overpowered and controlled by his strong emotions.

Thus we find that in the earliest Catholic/Christian document outside of the New Testament, the Didache (prononuced Day-DAR-kay), which means "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles", written between the years AD 50-60; and forming a crucial part of Catholic Sacred Unwritten Tradition as opposed to Written Scripture - we find this salient warning:​


"...Two ways there are, one of spiritual life and one of spiritual death, but there is a great difference between the two ways. The way of life is indeed this: First, you will love the God who made you; secondly, "you will love your neighbor as yourself...Love those who hate you, and you will have no enemies. Yet hold yourself away from the fleshly and kosmic strong desires...You will not hate any people, but you will reprove some, and you will pray for some, and some you will love more than your life. My child, flee from every evil thing, and from everything like it. Do not become angry or prone to anger, for anger is the way to murder. Neither should you be jealous, nor one who creates strife, nor emotional. For murders are born out of all of these. My child, do not become strongly desirous...Now the way of death is this: First of all it is evil and filled with emotions..."

- Didache (AD 60-80), The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles to the Nations


So as you can see having strong emotions is something which even the earliest Christians warned against. The love which Christian's speak of, and which they say God IS, is not a human love founded on familiarity and affection. We feel that kind of love only for our closest associates, our family and the like. The love Christian's speak of is a Divine Love which in the original Greek of the New Testament is called agape - self-donating love. Its not so much an emotion as it is an state of mind and activity. Thus Saint Paul tells us in the Book of Romans, "Love is always patient and kind; love is never jealous; love is not boastful or conceited, it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances. Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but finds its joy in the truth. It is always ready to make allowances, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends” (1 Corinthians 13: 4-7 NJB)​

Its about having a right attitude to life and other people, one which does not divide between good and evil; black and white; believer and non-believer but which motivates the person to be like God, to do good to everyone whether "evil" or "good" and to be willing to sacrifice ones own happiness, pleasure, comfort and even life for the sake of one's fellow human beings, no matter whether they are Mother Teresa or a drug dealer and thug. It is active and living - not a "feeling", it is a Way of Life for those who practice it.

Religion must be founded upon and built up in Love, for God is Love, and love in the Bible is never a 'feeling' but is always something which is active - hence why the word used most in the New Testament for love is "agape" or "charity" - a 'self-giving' love. The second word used for love in biblical greek is 'phileo' or brotherly love. Religion cannot be lived by oneself or for oneself. Religion connects us with the human race at large and gives us a universal vision of reality. The word religion comes from the Latin religio which means "to bind" or "to connect".​


Hence why in 1890 Pope Leo XIII wrote:​


The maternal love of the Catholic Church embraces all people...It is the industrious guardian of the teachings of its Founder [Jesus] who, by His words and those of the apostles, taught men the fraternal necessity which unites the whole world. From Him we recall that everybody has sprung from the same source and is called to the same eternal happiness”

(Pope Leo XIII, CATHOLICAE ECCLESIAE;1890)


For Catholics love is not an emotion we develop, it is a Life that We Life, a life lived for the service of others and not ourselves, as the Bible tells us:​


"...Live in love, as Christ loved us, and handed himself over for us...”

- Saint Paul, Ephesians (5:2, 25-32), Bible


This love, by necessity, makes us go beyond the confines of race and religion and grasp a deeper reality, the underlying unity of all human beings in their origin and destiny - in God, from whom we came and to whom we all return, as Pope Pius XII explained upon hearing that World War Two had begun in 1939:​



"...What a wonderful vision, which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God. . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end... This divine law of solidarity and love assures that all men are truly brothers, without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and societies. In the light of this unity of all mankind, which exists in law and in fact, individuals do not feel themselves isolated units, like grains of sand, but united by the very force of their nature and by their internal destiny, into an organic, harmonious mutual relationship which varies with the changing of times...With a heart torn by the sufferings and afflictions of so many of her sons, but with the courage and the stability that come from the promises of Our Lord, the Spouse of Christ goes to meet the gathering storms. This she knows, that the truth which she preaches, the charity which she teaches and practices, will be the indispensable counselors and aids to men of good will in the reconstruction of a new world based on justice and love, when mankind, weary from its course along the way of error, has tasted the bitter fruits of hate and violence...
Whatever We can do to hasten the day when the dove of peace may find on this earth, submerged in a deluge of discord, somewhere to alight, We shall continue to do..."


- Venerable Pope Pius XII,Summi Pontificatus (On the Unity of the Human Race) October 12, 1939


And so without exception this agape love given to us as a parting gift Christ on the night before his death on the cross, should impel us to exhibit selfless compassion and service towards all human beings irrespective of religion:​


"...[Many non-Christians are] ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace; because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all...God forbid, then, that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith [non-Christians]. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation...”

- Blessed Pope Pius IX (QUANTO CONFICIAMUR, August 10, 1863)


“…I want to accustom all the inhabitants, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and nonbelievers, to look on me as their brother, the universal brother. Already they’re calling this house “the fraternity” (khaoua in Arabic) — about which I’m delighted — and realizing that the poor have a brother here — not only the poor, though: all men…Above all, always see Jesus in every person, and consequently treat each one not only as an equal and as a brother or sister, but also with great humility, respect and selfless generosity…”

- Blessed Charles de Foucauld (1858- 1916), Catholic mystic and martyr


Blessed Pope John Paul II stated in his apostolic letter Mulieris Dignitatem that:​

“Man – whether man or woman – is the only being among the creatures of the visible world that God the Creator has willed for its own sake [to know him]; that creature is thus a person. Being a person means striving towards self-realization, which can only be achieved through a sincere gift of self. The model for this interpretation of the person is God himself".

And GOD IS LOVE! :grinningkaur:

Often this love does not feel good. Often it does not even appear to be on the surface "loving". Many early Christians were orstracized by their families for Love of Christ, for adherence to their faith. It is a love that can break bonds of familiarity, for the sake of a Higher Truth and a Higher Unity embracing all humankind.

This can be seen most clearly in the life of the third century AD Saint and Catholic martyr Perpetua, a young Roman Noblewoman.

Saints Perpetua and Felicity were martyred in Carthage in about the year A.D. 203, together with three others. In the year 203, Vivia Perpetua made the decision to become a Christian, although she knew it could mean her death during Septimus' persecution. The five martyrs were catechumens when they were arrested during the persecution of Emperor Septimus Severus, but they were baptized before they were led away to prison. Vivia Perpetua (whose name means "life everlasting") was a young married woman from a noble family and with an infant son, while Felicity was a servant and eight months pregnant. Perpetua’s mother and two brothers were Christian, but her father was pagan. When she was arrested, her father tried to get her to deny that she was a Christian in order to save her from execution, but Perpetua refused to deny her Lord. Christianity was at that time an illegal religion in that part of the Roman Empire. Her father was frantic with worry and tried to talk her out of her decision. We can easily understand his concern. At 22 years old, this well-educated, high-spirited woman had every reason to want to live -- including a baby son who was still nursing. We know she was married, but since her husband is never mentioned, many historians assume she was a widow.


Perpetua wrote an account of her trials before her death, which was finished and published after her death aged only 22 by her a friend, in which she tells us in her own words:


"...While we were still with the persecutors, and my father, for the sake of his affection for me, was persisting in seeking to turn me away, and to cast me down from the faith — “Father,” said I, “do you see, let us say, this vessel lying here to be a little pitcher, or something else?” And he said, “I see it to be so.” And I replied to him, “Can it be called by any other name than what it is?” And he said, “No.” “Neither can I call myself anything else than what I am, a Christian.” Then my father, provoked at this saying, threw himself upon me, as if he would tear my eyes out...After a few days there prevailed a report that we should be heard. And then my father came to me from the city, worn out with anxiety. He came up to me, that he might cast me down, saying, “Have pity my daughter, on my grey hairs. Have pity on your father, if I am worthy to be called a father by you. . . . Lay aside your courage, and do not bring us all to destruction; for none of us will speak in freedom if you should suffer anything.” These things said my father in his affection, kissing my hands, and throwing himself at my feet; and with tears he called me not Daughter, but Lady. And I grieved over the grey hairs of my father, that he alone of all my family would not rejoice over my passion. And I comforted him, saying, “On that scaffold whatever God wills shall happen. For know that we are not placed in our own power, but in that of God.” And he departed from me in sorrow..."


By law, a pregnant woman could not be executed, but Felicity soon gave birth in prison, and she was happy that she could suffer death for Christ with the others.

The prison was so crowded with people that the heat was suffocating. There was no light anywhere and Perpetua "had never known such darkness." The soldiers who arrested and guarded them pushed and shoved them without any concern. Perpetua had no trouble admitting she was very afraid, but in the midst of all this horror her most excruciating pain came from being separated from her baby.
The young slave, Felicity was even worse off for Felicity suffered the stifling heat, overcrowding, and rough handling while being eight months pregnant.
Two deaconswho ministered to the prisoners paid the guards so that the martyrs would be put in a better part of the prison. There her mother and brother were able to visit Perpetua and bring her baby to her. When she received permission for her baby to stay with her "my prison suddenly became a palace for me." Once more her father came to her, begging her to give in, kissing her hands, and throwing himself at her feet. She told him, "We lie not in our own power but in the power of God."
When she and the others were taken to be examined and sentenced, her father followed, pleading with her and the judge. The judge, out of pity, also tried to get Perpetua to change her mind, but when she stood fast, she was sentenced with the others to be thrown to the wild beasts in the arena. Her father was so furious that he refused to send her baby back to Perpetua.

The four new Christians went to the arena (the fifth, Secundulus, had died in prison) with joy and calm. Perpetua in usual high spirits met the eyes of everyone along the way. We are told she walked with "shining steps as the true wife of Christ, the darling of God."

When those at the arena tried to force Perpetua and the rest to dress in robes dedicated to their gods, Perpetua challenged her executioners. "We came to die out of our own free will so we wouldn't lose our freedom to worship our God. We gave you our lives so that we wouldn't have to worship your gods." She and the others were allowed to keep their clothes.

The men were attacked by bears, leopards, and wild boars. The women were stripped to face a rabid heifer. When the crowd, however, saw the two young women, one of whom had obviously just given birth, they were horrified and the women were removed and clothed again. Perpetua and Felicity were thrown back into the arena so roughly that they were bruised and hurt. Perpetua, though confused and distracted, still was thinking of others and went to help Felicity up. The two of them stood side by side as all four martyrs had their throats cut. Then they were tossed about by an exceptionally wild cow, gored, and thrown to the ground. Perpetua encouraged the others and astounded the crowd. Finally, they were put to the sword.

Perpetua, along with other Christians of Carthage, went bravely to her death while admonishing other Christians, "Stand firm in faith, love one another and do not be tempted to do anything wrong because of our sufferings."

However not being killed outright by the beasts, Saint Perpetua alone survived of the five victims and so a young gladiator was sent out into the Stadium to finish her off. When he saw that it was a delicate, pretty young woman that he - a hulking brute - had to kill, he wept and pleaded not to have to do so heinous a thing. Perpetua took pity on Him, and guided the sword of the frightened gladiator assigned to kill her to her own throat. The ancient account of her death says "Such a woman - one before whom the unclean spirit trembled - could not perhaps have been killed, had she herself not willed it."

Every single year Catholics honour Saint Perpetua by remembering her in every Easter Mass. She died for freedom to practice her religion. That is LOVE. And GURU TEGH BAHADUR DIED FOR THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE OF OTHER FAITHS TO PRACTICE THEM! THAT IS LOVE!!!!


And so Saint Paul writes:


"...What will separate us from the love of Christ?
Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine,
or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?
No, in all these things, we conquer overwhelmingly
through him who loved us.
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life,
nor angels, nor principalities,
nor present things, nor future things,
nor powers, nor height, nor depth,
nor any other creature will be able to separate us
from the love of God in Christ Jesus..." (Romans 8:31b-35, 37-39)


This is the love that Perpetua exemplified; and you can substitute the words "Jesus Christ" above for "Love of God in Nanak", or "Love of God in Krishna" - it is a UNIVERSAL LOVE!
 
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