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As A Sikh Do You Ever Ask When Hurting Or Feeling Low, God/Creator, Why Me?

How you cope spiritually and in your mind to negative feelings?

  • I believe it is Karma from many lives before that I am paying for.

    Votes: 7 15.9%
  • I believe I am just reaping what I sow in this life.

    Votes: 4 9.1%
  • Up/down is being human and creator is neither partial nor vengeful.

    Votes: 14 31.8%
  • I am thankful for what I have versus be sorry for what is not perfect.

    Votes: 10 22.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 9 20.5%

  • Total voters
    44

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
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Vouthon Veerji,

Many thanks for your post, most eloquently worded as per usual., however, I would be most grateful, if could answer in your own words the following which have not been clarified.

“Man – whether man or woman – is the only being among the creatures of the visible world that God the Creator has willed for its own sake [to know him]; that creature is thus a person. Being a person means striving towards self-realization, which can only be achieved through a sincere gift of self. The model for this interpretation of the person is God himself".

And GOD IS LOVE!

Yet, in my bible quote, which formed the centre of my argument, you have not addressed the way in which God is described, you do, however, confirm that God is to be emulated, which leaves me slightly confused. How can I , if I were catholic, emulate a jealous and angry God?
 
Feb 23, 2012
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Vouthon Veerji,

Many thanks for your post, most eloquently worded as per usual., however, I would be most grateful, if could answer in your own words the following which have not been clarified.



Yet, in my bible quote, which formed the centre of my argument, you have not addressed the way in which God is described, you do, however, confirm that God is to be emulated, which leaves me slightly confused. How can I , if I were catholic, emulate a jealous and angry God?

My dearest brother harry mundahug

I am writing this part as we speak LOL - remember I said I would reply to you in segments? lol

Give me a little bit of time to tweak what I'm writing :happymunda:
 
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
Dear brother Harry :)

I think I went a little bit overboard with length in my previoius post so I'll try and keep this post more concise but still meaty.

Before I address the actual bible quote you provided me with directly, I would like to first explain the Catholic view of the Bible, which is quite different to how Protestants view the Bible, Muslims the Qur'an and Sikhs the Guru Granth Sahib ji. We have a radically different relationship to this sacred text, and it is important to understand this.

Our Muslim brothers often to refer to Christians as "People of the Book", a term of respect for other Abrahamic religions, but one which Catholics outright reject. Catholicism is not a religion of the Book, the Bible or otherwise.

As the Catechism explains:

"...The Catholic faith is not a "religion of the book." Catholicism is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living". If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter,the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."..."

Unlike the Qur'an and the sacred poetry of the Gurus, Jesus never wrote anything directly. He never came to give the world a Sacred Sctipture. Christians later wrote some of his words down, and the Apostles wrote writings that were written down for reasons of posterity that were later received as inspired writ, but this was never what Jesus commanded.

Jesus called Twelve Apostles and an extended group of disciples composed of men and women and created a construct now known from the early second century onwards as the Catholic Church which means in English, "the Universal Assembly" [of Christ's disciples]. He gave these Apostles a set of teachings which he desired to become a Tradition - this word comes from the Latin traditio which means, "to hand down". Jesus laid hands on the Apostles, ordaining them with his authority to teach, and they in turn laid hands on other people and gave them the authority to teach. And thus began what Catholics call, "the Apostolic Succession" - the direct line of succession of bishops stretching right back to the Apostles and then to Jesus Himself which constitutes the Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church united around the locus of stability that is the Church of Rome, headed by the Pope, where the Apostles Peter and Paul wanted the fledgling Church to forever have its centre of gravity, the root of this living, beathing tradition handed down from Christ to his Apostles and the Bishops, priests and laity that would suceed them down the generations.

The New Testament Writings are the codification of some of these teachings in Written form. However Catholics also possess multitudes of Unwritten, non-bliblical Apostolic teachings which are of equal authority with the Bible. The Church approved and selected the Writings which would form the New Testament, but it and not the Bible remained the Living Tradition created by Jesus and passed down from Bishop to Bishop by the laying on of hands. It only could infallibly interpret the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, through the lens of that Sacred Tradition of which the NT constitiuted the written part - and it interprets it in a progressive development of doctrine and understanding over time, that is still happening now, through the living witness of the Early Church Fathers, the later saints, scholastics, theologians, mystics and the Church hierarchy.

Thus the Catholic Church explained at Vatican II.


The Second Vatican Council ("Vatican II") wrote an important document called "On Divine Revelation" (Dei Verbum in Latin). It's quite readable, and contains definitive teaching on the full meaning of Catholic Tradition.
The Council notes the importance of seeing that Catholic Tradition is firmly rooted in the Apostles: it is Christ's whole gift to them, and to us. The Council writes:
In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion..., commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, and to impart to them heavenly gifts.
(Dei Verbum, 7)
It is specifically this "commissioning of the Apostles" that is fulfilled in the handing on of Catholic Tradition.
The Apostles dedicated themselves to this mission, and they appointed other faithful men to succeed them and carry on their work. That same passage of Dei Verbum continues:
This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing.
(Dei Verbum, 7)


To see Sacred Tradition in action, lets take the teaching that abortion is evil and cannot be condoned by Christians. This is stated nowhere in the Bible but Christ and Apostles clearly taught it.

This Sacred Tradition is attested as far back as the first century documents the Didache and the Epistle of Barnabus, written before the close of the Apostolic age:


The Didache


"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).


The Letter of Barnabas

"The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).


Now lets trace this Sacred Tradition about a century later, the Apostolic Age has closed but this Sacred revealed tradition is still being attested to by Church authorities as universal Christian belief from Jesus and the Apostles:


Tertullian

"In our case, a murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from the other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed" (Apology 9:8 [A.D. 197]).


And 200 years after this:


The Apostolic Constitutions

"Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . if it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed" (Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 [A.D. 400]).


And now just over 20 years ago in the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church:


Modern Catechism of the Catholic Church

"...2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72


Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:


You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes..."


That abortion is unlawful for Christians is thus (undisputably) Divine Revelation since it is a genuine Sacred Tradition that has always and universally been taught by the Church. But its not at all biblical.

Pope Benedict XVI gave a beautiful catechesis on Catholic Tradition in late April, 2006. He says that we miss the profound meaning of Catholic Tradition if we see it only as the handing on of a static Revelation.
More than that, it is the active, continuous work of the Holy Spirit in our particular time: it makes real and tangible "the active presence of the Lord Jesus in his people, realized by the Holy Spirit".
Seeing Catholic Tradition as the active presence of Christ through the work of the Spirit is precisely what accomplishes the "transmission of the goods of salvation" to us:
Thanks to Tradition, guaranteed by the ministry of the apostles and their successors, the water of life that flowed from the side of Christ and his saving blood comes to the women and men of all times. In this way, Tradition is the permanent presence of the Savior who comes to meet, redeem and sanctify us in the Spirit through the ministry of his Church for the glory of the Father.
This reality of the divine action of the Holy Spirit within the Church is essential to understanding Catholic Tradition. It is what makes Sacred Tradition something far different than mere human traditions.
Through that same action of the Spirit, Catholic Tradition incorporates us into the Communion of the Saints. It ensures the connection "between the experience of the apostolic faith, lived in the original community of the disciples, and the present experience of Christ in his Church."
The Pope concludes:
Tradition is the living river that unites us to the origins, the living river in which the origins are always present, the great river that leads us to the port of eternity. In this living river, the word of the Lord...: "And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age", is fulfilled again (Matthew 28:20).
Through Catholic Tradition, the Holy Spirit works to bring the grace and truth of Christ into our own lives.

Because Christ was born a Jew, and Christianity first emerged as a distinct religion from the Mother religion of Judaism, Christians inherited the Jewish scriptures known by Jews as the Tanakh and by us Christians as the Old Testament that you quote from above, and which you think based upon that quote from Nahum, depicts an angry, jealous and wrathful God.

The Old Testament does not form part of the teachings which Jesus passed down, however Christians do believe it to be inspired and divinely revealed BUT also to be imperfect and provisional unlike the Sacred Tradition passed down from Jesus, being written as it was by men of their times under the guidance of the Holy Spirit within them, who made use of their own experiences, knowledge, aptutides, skills and the genre that they chose to write these texts with. And so you get from these writings a true, holy and divine understanding of God but mediated through the understanding of imperfect human beings living many thousands of years ago amidst pagan nations worshipping many gods and in a state of permanent warfare and tribalism. God, nonetheless, guided this ancient people known as the Hebrews, gradually, from the depths of ignorance of his Nature and Oneness, from polytheism and human sacrifice to animal sacrifice, then to no sacrifices at all, from hatred to love, from war to peace - gradually revealing more and more about Himself to this little Middle-eastern tribe, moving them away from barbarity and paganism with every passing age, so that they would become "a light to the nations" - and fulfil his plan of being the race that would give birth to Jesus Christ who would go on to found a religion that would become the religion of the Roman Empire, slowly leading all the nations of the then known world away from polytheism to worship of One God, away from merely outward shows of ceremonial religion, and excessive rules and dietary codes, to a more interior religion founded upon a more exalted understanding of God as Love Itself.

Thus in the Catechism the Church explains:


204 God revealed himself progressively and under different names to his people



Dei Verbum itself notes, that the Old Testament “contains matters imperfect and provisional.” But the Council goes on to say that,

"These books [of the Old Testament] nevertheless show us authentic divine teaching. Christians should accept with veneration these writings which give expression to a lively sense of God, which are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way" (15).


Thus in other Books of the OT we find teachings such as this:

"...The Spirit of the Lord has filled the Universe...The whole universe before you is like a speck that tips the scales, and like a drop of morning dew that falls on the ground. But you are merciful to all, for you can do all things, and you overlook people's sins. For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made, for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living. For your immortal spirit is in all things...For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen...You, our God, are kind and true, patient, and ruling all things in mercy. For even if we sin we are yours, knowing your power..."


- The Book of Wisdom (Holy Bible)

The Book of Wisdom was written only aroumd 150 years before the birth of Christ and you can easily see the progression the Catholic Church speaks about.


The Book of Nahum which you quote from above was written by the Prophet Nahum in the 740s BC - that is OVER SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE THE BIRTH OF JESUS.

You thus quoted from a book produced - yes under the guidance of the Holy Spritit but by a people that were not yet even pure monotheists, but many of whom still worshipped many gods, passed their children through fire to sacrifice them to these foreign idols and did many other such barbarities.

The subject of Nahum's book is the approaching complete and final destruction of Nineveh, the capital of the great and at that time flourishing Assyrian empire by the Babylonian Empire. The King was at the height of his glory. Nineveh was a city of vast extent, and was then the center of the civilization and commerce of the world, a "bloody city all full of lies and robbery" (Nahum 3:1), for it had robbed and plundered all the neighboring nations. It was strongly fortified on every side, bidding defiance to every enemy.

From its opening, Nahum shows God to be slow to anger - a certain progression from the then current understandings of God by the Assyrians and other neighbouring nations with their multiple warrior gods who delighted in warfare, the spilling of blood and in frenzied orgies - although not as yet a pure understanding of God as taught by Christianity or Sikhism.

Thus Nahum writes,

Nahum 1:3 (NIV) The LORD is slow to anger and great in power...The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him

Slow to anger - far cry from this dude: Ashur, the King of the Assyrian gods, a circle or wheel, suspended from wings, and enclosing a warrior drawing his bow to discharge an arrow,

Ashur and the other deities were physical gods made of wood and stone that reflected human society. Nahum preached a God who was not of physical form, but was formless, whose form could not be depicted because he had none, who was slow to anger and a safe refuge for all who trusted in Him, who was infinetly good.

Ashur's followers chanted, "With the mighty power of the god Ashur, my lord, I marched to the land Sugu...I conquered their cities, took their gods, and brought out their booty, possessions and property. I burnt razed and destroyed their cities and turned them into ruin hills. I imposed heavy yoke of my dominion upon them and made them slaves of Ashur, my lord. I marched to the land of Sighu, people unsubmissive to the god Ashur my lord. I brought about their defeat. I built up mounds with the corpses..."

The Assyrian Army massacred men, women and children of the cities that refused to pay them tribute. Israel was one of them. And now Nahum, in the name of the true God, was standing up and fearlessly declaring that the rule of the Assyrian Empire was at an end and a new age was coming, where men would trust not in gods of wood and stone but in the Onle, Living God - not in the power of men but in the divine.

Jesus taught:

"...But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect..."


- Jesus Christ (Gospel of Matthew 5:44-48)


God makes his sun rise on evil and good without partiality and with equal love and care? And furthermore this selfless, impartial, open-ended, universally applicable love is the justification for the need of Christians to love their enemies?


You will not find that full, purified depiction of God yet in the Book of Nahum. Humanity was not yet advanced enough. The most important thing then according to the Divine Plan was to remove humanity from idolatry and pride and strength in human might, arms and warfare and idolatry.

Nahum was telling the humanity of his time that the Assyrian Empire, for all its power and might, would pass away. It was mortal, it could not last. And so he directed their attention to a Higher Power, which he called YHWH - translated as, "the Lord" in our Bibles. The Divine Name YHWH could not be pronounced, so had to be substituted with other words, and it means, "I AM WHO AM". A God who IS. Not an idol to be worshipped with human and animal sacrifices. And Nahum, to convince his people of this truth, made use of the violent imagery then used by the Assyrians to describe both their own power and their gods - the message was simple: Everything that you think these violent, worldly Kings and Empires are, God is so much more. Trust in Him and not in mere men!

It took a long time to get humanity to the exalted, pure vision of God that is found in Sikhism and indeed in the Catholic mystics.

Please don't judge ancient peoples by modern standards. Its not fair brother. :)

How can one compare a poem to God written 3000 years ago during the Assyrian conquest of Israel and Guru Nanak in the 1400s? So much progression has happened since then.
 
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Feb 23, 2012
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Oh btw just in case anyone gets confused, one of the ancient quotes I have above on abortion writes:

"Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . if it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed" (Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 [A.D. 400]).

When it speak of witchcraft it is talking about pagan practices such as passing children through fire to cast mythical spells and offering them to gods that don't exist in the context of the quote from Exodus about augurs, which took place over 1,000 years before Christ. And when it says "avenged" it is referring to the canonical penalty of preventing a Catholic from receiving the sacraments for a period of time so as to hit home the gravity of the crime which has taken place - abortion, infanticide or passing children through fire- from the Christian perspective, just in case anyone was like - What??? The Book of Exodus describes how pagan witches and shamens would send children through fire in mystical rituals in a form of child sacrifice that was practiced as late as Roman times in some places 0:)

In the Torah Moses said that the death penalty should be given for witches and shamens that passed their children through fire, however the Early Christians believed that the death penalty was illegal - that no life could be taken away. So they suggested imposed a merely canonical penalty for this crime, not being able to partake of the sacraments. As the Church Fathers explain concerning capital punishment:


“We cannot endure even to see a man put to death, though justly.” – Saint Athenagoras of Athens (aprox 180 AD), Church Father, A Plea for the Christians 35

"When God forbids us to kill, he not only prohibits the violence that is condemned by public laws, but he also forbids the violence that is deemed lawful by men...Nor is it lawful to accuse anyone of a capital offense. It makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or by the sword. It is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited. Therefore, regarding this precept of God there should be no exception at all. Rather it is always unlawful to put to death a man, whom God willed to be a sacred animal.” – Lactantius, Church Father (aprox 240-317 AD), Divine Institutes 6.20

"During the first few centuries after Jesus' execution, Christians were instructed to not participate in the execution of a criminal, to not attend public executions, and even to not lay a charge against a person if it might possibly eventually result in their execution. Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr and other Christian writers who discussed capital punishment during the first three centuries after Jesus' execution were absolutely opposed to it." - VIEWS OF THE EARLY CHRISTIAN MOVEMENTS ON THE DEATH PENALTY
 
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Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Vouthon ji thanks for detailed well laid out post one above last.

I have a question and not to be flippant. Abortion I see and agree and Sikhism from what I know sees and believes the same. mundahug

Question of contraceptives! Why such get suckered in and under what guidance? Does it relate to the logic as "sex for procreation" only or something like that? Why sex not be part of loving one another just as kissing, hugging, embracing, sleeping together in mutual warmth and passionate embrace?

Thank you.
 
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
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Vouthon ji thanks for detailed well laid out post one above last.

I have a question and not to be flippant. Abortion I see and agree and Sikhism from what I know sees and believes the same. mundahug

Question of contraceptives! Why such get suckered in and under what guidance? Does it relate to the logic as "sex for procreation" only or something like that? Why sex not be part of loving one another just as kissing, hugging, embracing, sleeping together in mutual warmth and passionate embrace?

Thank you.


My dear brother Ambarsaria 0:)

An excellent question!


There is no mention in Catholic Sacred Tradition of contraception. The current Church hierarchy admits this, although not happily, and so the majority of Catholics use contraception. lol

It all started in the 1930s when the Church of England approved artificial contraception. The Pope, Pius XI, was extremely worried that this would give young people a free license to have sex as much as they liked with multiple partners and so issued an encyclical explaining that while sex was not just for procreation, but also for the mutual unity and pleasure of spouses in a committed relationship, it should also be open to life and let nature run its course. This text is called Castī Connūbiī (Latin: "of chaste wedlock")<SUP> </SUP> and was a papal encyclical promulgated by Pope Pius XI on December 31, 1930 in response to the Lambeth Conference of the Anglican church. It stressed the sanctity of marriage, prohibited Catholics from using any form of artificial birth control, and reaffirmed the prohibition on abortion (which as you know is part of the Tradition and can't be changed). The encyclical encouraged Catholics to use Natural Family Planning ie have sex when the woman is in her infertile period so as to avoid childbirth. The Pope thought that observing natural periods and cycles like this would not only be legitimate but help the couple grow.

Since then Catholics have been most displeased with the Church hierarchy for insisting on a teaching which has no basis in the Tradition, and I am one of those people.

There are calls now to get rid of this teaching and I expect the next Pope will do so.

However it will be with great displeasure on the part of the Church.

In our bibles there is a book in the OT called the "Song of Songs" which is a poem about the romance between a young unmarried woman and man - a noblewoman and a shepherd boy - who slip off in the middle of the night without their parents knowing to kiss and be with each other and eventually after making commitments in secret to one another make love. In this book of the Bible the young couple aren't having sex to procreate should we say lol

Here's an excerpt:

"Kiss me, make me drunk with your kisses!
Your sweet lovemaking
is better than wine

...

Take me by the hand, let us run together!

My lover, my king, has brought me into his chambers.
We will laugh, you and I, and count each kiss,
better than wine.

Every one of them [the other maidens] wants you.

...My king lay down beside me
and my fragrance
wakened the night
All night My beloved is to me a bag of myrrh
that lies between my breasts.
My beloved is to me a cluster of
henna blossoms in the vineyards of En-ged

...

And my beloved among the young men
is a branching apricot tree in the wood.
In that shade I have often lingered,
tasting the fruit [Oral sex
wink.png
]

...

Awake, O north wind, and come, O south wind!
Blow upon my garden that its fragrance may be wafted abroad.
Let my beloved come to his garden, and eat its choicest fruits
[Oral Sex]

...

How beautiful you are and how pleasing,

O love, with your delights!

Your stature is like that of the palm,

and your breasts like clusters of fruit.

I said, “I will climb the palm tree;

I will take hold of its fruit.”

And oh, may your breasts be like clusters
of grapes on a vine, the scent
of your breath like apricots,
your mouth good wine-

That pleases my lover, rousing him
even from sleep."

...I imagine that would rouse me from sleep as well...lol
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
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Dec 21, 2010
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Wonderful poem (wow :hug: :40: :Luv: :afriends2:).

Thanks for the complete answer. I hope the repeal comes through for the good of all Catholics. I note that "edicts given to people as help and guidance that only force them to break or dis-respectfully obey are not very spiritual and take away from the richness and beauty of a religion like Catholicism".

I understand fully.

Regards.
 
Feb 23, 2012
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642
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Wonderful poem (wow :hug: :40: :Luv: :afriends2:).

Thanks for the complete answer. I hope the repeal comes through for the good of all Catholics. I note that "edicts given to people as help and guidance that only force them to break or dis-respectfully obey are not very spiritual and take away from the richness and beauty of a religion like Catholicism".

I understand fully.

Regards.


Thank you brother Ambarsaria! :whatzpointkudi: Very well put, I agree 100% and I love those smilies too! lol

I also hope that this teaching is reppealed. Its been a burden from the beginning and an unnecessary one at that.

But things like this have happened throughout Catholic history. Its nothing new. The church hierarchy is the trustee if you like of the Tradition and we believe that it will never teach anything expressly against the Tradition, however its fallible human members have often broke the Tradition and its taken ordinary Catholics to stand up and re-claim it for ourselves.

The Catholic Church has a long history of what we call faithful dissenters - Catholics who in their lifetimes are often condemned but soon after or later are recognised by the hierarchy as saints, the most splendid and brilliant Catholics of their time.

Differing with church authority is a noble tradition and today countless "good" Catholics routinely defy the teaching on artificial contraception. The dissenting tradition includes the likes of Galileo, Blessed John Henry Newman, Saint Catherine of Siena, Saint Hildegard of Bingen, Meister Eckhart, Servant of God Matteo Ricci, and John Courtney Murray.

Do you know of Saint Francis of Assisi, the thirteenth century nature-loving Catholic friar? Well, he opposed the then Pope too his face for corruption. The pope prohibited his order at first, the Franciscans, but then relented and admitted that he'd got it wrong.

Saint Joan of Arc was burnt on a stake in the 1400s for heresy at the age of just 19, by French Bishops in league with her English enemies. 20 years later she was absolved by the Pope himself who admitted that the Church hierarchy in France had made a terrible mistake, had in fact put nationality and factionalism above truth and her murderers were then condemned. She was later declared a Saint.

Saint John of the Cross was imprisoned in the sixteenth century by members of his own order, and deprived of food and kept in chains. He was later declared not only a Saint but also a Doctor of the Church in recognition of the wonderful, exuberant, inspired poetry he wrote to his Beloved - God - while in prison.

Mary MacKillop, an Australian nun who was excommunicated in 1871 for challenging a bishop's efforts to govern her religious community. More than a century later, Pope John Paul II declared her "blessed" and in 2010 she was declared a "Saint".

In twelfth century Germany, the Benedictine abbess Saint Hildegard of Bingen, healer, scientist, composer and author of 10 books, awakened popes and abbots alike, firing off letters like this one to Pope Anastasius IV: “O man, you who sit on the papal throne, you despise God when you don’t hurl from yourself the evil but even worse, embrace it and kiss it by silently tolerating corrupt men. . .And you, O Rome, are like one in the throes of death. You will be so shaken that the strength of your feet, the feet on which you now stand, will disappear. For you don’t love the King’s daughter, justice.”


She is now Saint Hildegard and a Doctor of the Church:sippingcoffeemunda:


Saint Symeon (949–1022 AD) spoke from personal experience of the vision of God. One of his principal teachings was that humans could and should experience theoria (literally "contemplation", or direct experience of God). Symeon endured severe opposition from church authorities, particularly from the chief theologian of the emperor's court, Archbishop Stephen, who at one time was the Metropolitan of Nicomedia. Stephen was a former politician and diplomat with a reputation for a thorough theoretical understanding of theology, but one which was removed from actual experience of the spiritual life. Symeon, in contrast, held the view that one must have actual experience of the Holy Spirit in order to speak about God, at the same time recognizing the authority of scripture and of the earlier church fathers.


In one of his hymns, Saint Symeon had Christ speaking the following rebuke to the bishops:


"They (the bishops) unworthily handle My Body
and seek avidly to dominate the masses...
They are seen to appear as brilliant and pure,
but their souls are worse than mud and dirt,
worse even than any kind of deadly poison,
these evil and perverse men!" (Hymn 58)



He became - SAINT SYMEON! :sippingcoffeemunda:


Saint Thomas Aquinas, who followed a century after Hildegard, wrote commentaries on 10 works by the greatest scientist of his day, Aristotle, even though the pope had forbidden Christians to study Aristotle. So controversial was Aquinas in his day that the king of France had to call out his troops to surround the convent where Aquinas lived to protect him from Christians aroused by fundamentalist clergy. For Aquinas, “revelation comes in two books—the Bible and Nature” and “a mistake about nature results in a mistake about God.”

Aquinas insisted that one is always responsible to one’s conscience, more than to any other authority. (Indeed, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. cites Aquinas on this point in his famous Letter from Birmingham Jail.) Aquinas was condemned by church authorities three times after he died but eventually was declared a saint and Doctor of the Church; and in the 19th century Catholics were not allowed to study any theologians apart from Thomas Aquinas' works in seminary!


Another Dominican, Meister Eckhart, is probably the greatest mystic the West has produced. His writings abound with depth, humor, paradox and challenges to establishment Christianity. For example, he declares, “I pray God to rid me of God.” He emphasizes what contemporary Biblical scholars are saying, that Christ is found not just in Jesus but in all of us. Eckhart says, “What good is it to me if Mary gave birth to the son of God 1,400 years ago and I do not do so in my time and my person and my culture?” Eckhart was never condemned or declared a heretic but the Church gave him a very hard time. He was tried for heresy but beat the hierarchy with the stunning statement that left them gob-smacked: "I may err like all men but I am not a heretic, for the first has to do with the mind and the second with the will". It was reading Eckhart that converted Fr Thomas Merton from atheism in the 1930’s to Catholicism and eventually into becoming a prophetic mystic of the 60‘s. Pope John Paul II was a devotee of Eckhart!



Teilhard de Chardin was a French Jesuit mystic and scientist who was banished from his home country to China early in the 20th century by church authorities, but who found plenty of scientific and mystical work to delve into in his exile. He spent his life researching the deeper meanings of science and spirituality and, being forbidden to publish most of his works in his life time, he left his books in the hands of a lay woman who got them published after he died. He is now considered to be one of the greatest Catholic mystics of the 20th century and is going to a candidate for canonisation pretty soon.

These are all noble dissenters, and it was explained well by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, a somewhat eccentric German Catholic polymath, in 1952:


"...The Catholic has the duty of forming, educating and training his conscience...Yet the Catholic who has lost his faith and who honestly accepts the teachings of another religious body commits a mortal sin if he does not publically embrace whatever religion he believes in. Father O'Karr very wisely points out that George Bernard Shaw was very much mistaken when he claimed Saint Joan of Arc for Protestantism. It was precisely her defiance of ecclesiastical authority and her strict adherence to her conscience which made her canonization (elevation to sainthood) possible within Catholicism...According to Catholic theology it is, therefore, quite likely that Jan Hus' soul went straight to heaven after his death, provided he sincerely believed in his own views, however erroneous [he rebelled against Catholic dogma and was a precursor to Protestantism]..."


I am reminded of words spoken by the younger Pope Benedict XVI, when he was still Fr Joseph Ratzinger and wrote a commentary on the Second Vatican Council in which he said:


“Not everything that exists in the Church must for that reason be also a legitimate tradition…. There is a distorting tradition as well as a legitimate tradition, ….[and] …consequently tradition must not be considered only affirmatively but also critically.”


I would suggest that contraception is clearly part of this distorting tradition.



So on the issue of dissenting from the teaching on contraception, Catholic history is encouraging - the dissenters of today are often the saints of tommorrow in Catholicism :sippingcoffeemunda:
 
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ravneet_sb

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Sat Sri Akaal,

When we say of previous Karma's.
It's not karam of one's own span of life,
but life that has crossed ages, life of parents,
grand parent's ........ and so on.

And the wonder word

Re Produce means repeat production.

How creator creates re production

Genetic records repetition and reproduction

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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Sat Sri Akaal,

When we say of previous Karma's.
It's not karam of one's own span of life,
but life that has crossed ages, life of parents,
grand parent's ........ and so on.

And the wonder word

Re Produce means repeat production.

How creator creates re production

Genetic records repetition and reproduction

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Ravneet_sbji

I concede your translation to a point, but clarification is needed. Are you talking of the actions of our ancestors, or are you talking about facets of personality?

thanks
 

ravneet_sb

Writer
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Nov 5, 2010
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Sat Sri Akaal,
Harry Ji,

What is experienced through children, that most of there action are reflections of parental or ancestral repeat. And the fact is just correlated with re production.

Secondly religion often says all human are from the same source,

from genesis of plants to animals to humans,

mutations have resulted in human form,

from than onward new form of life as "human" is on earth,
and further vocal mind has developed in the form,
every human is having all the record since genesis,
only one loses the power to retrieve it.

With blessing of nature, one can realise.

There is no death in reality.

As the trinity (sound, light and matter) was always there, will always be there,

Forms of existence of matter only changes.

Death is only perception of humans.

True Nature Prevails and commands everywhere

Every matter is live and dead,

as trinity prevails in all forms, animated or non animated.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki FAteh
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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No reincarnation is not necessary for evolution by natural selection (the theory).

But reincarnation is spiritual evolution (evolution of the soul) by definition.
 
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Harry Haller

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SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
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in that case I would be hugely grateful for your definition of reincarnation, no one liners, be specific, is it the Hindu type, the Buddhist type? What does one take from this life exactly to the next

:interestedsingh:
 

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