A Sikh Without His Flowing Hair And Turban

[TGill]

Khalsa ji,

I'm not caught in my own words. I think you mistook it for what I said.

Logic is simple:
1. Only sheeps are accepted by Guru not lions.... please comtemplate -))
2. When Guru accepts a sheep, it becomes a lion.... ( I mean from heart for there are many real lion species in jungle)
3. So why bother to make someone a lion with your efforts. If you think lion is someone who keeps his hair then if Guru accepts him he will become a lion.

Why are we worried in making people keep hair. Guru will take care of it if at all it is required..

So the big question now is, are you accepted by the Guru or have become lion on your own authority .. ?

 

[Archived_Member_19]

i say again

charity begins at home

 

[drkhalsa]

So the big question now is, are you accepted by the Guru or have become lion on your own authority

.. ?

Dear TGill ji

I was joking and mincing words Plz dont mind and I ask for forgivness with Foded Hand if there I created some confusion It was just to lighten up the Mood


If you have asked the question above to me personally then answer is :

YES I was fortunate enough to taken in Refuge by Guru /AKAL It was one of the time of my life what I call very turbulent.I have been wandering here and there in search of support just like orphan .My councious spirtual journey started when I was in My Proffesional college and at the time I rejected all organised religion incuding Sikhism but I was kind of peace with all of them but as I was born in Sikh Family and aldo been provided for my needs by my parents I just kept on moving like dummy ( sheep in loins covering ) but inside I was blind to Sikhism
Then after really long and painful journey I day It just become to much to be confudes and I really become helpless with loss of diection and for the first time I really asked God for the Dierction /Guru and I guess within next feew days I got m answer when I met one gursikh that opened my eyes to my Guru.All in All i Just believ that My Guru chose me .It is difficult to say such a thing in words but really I felt like writing it down .
And to clear again to avoid confusion The GURU that chose me was No body Else but the same GURU OF GURU NANAK DEV JI HIMSELF that is AKAL

 

[FiveLovedOnes]

<<Only then miracles happen or else sheep remains a sheep.Ha ha..........>>

do you really believe in miracles?

Yes I do believe in miracles.Go to Guru 's Shelter n everything is possible.

Satgur mera maar Jivaaleey.( He can raise a dead being)

Pasu Preath Mukad ko Tarey.( He transforms big sinners into his beloved devotees)

Isn't all this miracles.Only guru can do this.
Guru can do anything.
A sikh just need to pass his test of immense love,devotion n seva n his blessings r ready.

Satnam Siri Waheguru.

 

[FiveLovedOnes]

Khalsa ji,

I'm not caught in my own words. I think you mistook it for what I said.

Logic is simple:
1. Only sheeps are accepted by Guru not lions.... please comtemplate -))It is typing mistake.Please Excuse.Instead it should be like this.

Only those transformed into Lions by following Guru's words r accepted into his army.Those who refuse to accept his words n orders remain sheeps n so not allowed to be in his army.Guru needs only Lions to fight in the battlefield to win over evils n not sheeps.Simple.
2. When Guru accepts a sheep, it becomes a lion.... ( I mean from heart for there are many real lion species in jungle).Ur name ends with a Singh.That means a Lion.But that means u need to be Lion from heart as well as might.Fearless like a Lion who holds its ground till enemy is wiped out or runs away.

3. So why bother to make someone a lion with your efforts. If you think lion is someone who keeps his hair then if Guru accepts him he will become a lion.Noone can become Lion with his own efforts.If that had been the case then indian would have dragged away Mugal rulers all by themselves.Only when Guru came n made his army(very small in number as compared to Mugal army) that was fearless,mighty like Lions n could fight with one against sava lakh.Only Guru 's mighty words can do this.Listen to his words dearly n follow.To follow u need to simply raise urself to accept his words i.e prepare urself or ur mind to firmly stick to Guruji's words.Everything comes automatically from Guru within U.He is present everywhere.

Joh brahamandey Sohee Pindee(One who is present in this whole universe is also residing in ur body)

Why are we worried in making people keep hair. Guru will take care of it if at all it is required..We need to follow Guru's words at all cost n with full trust in him.No one is better than Guru.Guru 's words r nectar.It is guru 's words that does all miracles happen.Sheeps transformed into lions n fight one against sava laakh.It is guruji 's words that made cowards n hiding people come out n stand against tyranny n big mugal forces.


Guru has asked to maintain 5Ks.So Every Sikh must obey guru's words.Guru ji will take care of rest.Guru gave us hairs to preserve n maintain them beautiful.We look complete with our hairs.hairs r our jewels from guru n lot lot more.Explanation is indefinite.Beyond everything They r indication of the fact that we r following our Guru 's words with our complete mind n heart.

So the big question now is, are you accepted by the Guru or have become lion on your own authority .. ?

It is a typing mistake.Please ignore.Instead it has to be like this.

Only Lions r accepted by Guru.means who go to Guru 's Saran/shelter n follow all his words dearly is changed from a sheep to a Lion.Such Lions r accepted by Guru forever.They r accepted by Guru n participate in Battles with Guru in their heart all time.

 

[TGill]

Five loved one ji,

You have many many flaws in the logic you presented and I can totally refute that logic point by point just for discussion.

But I won't say anything cos I think I have hurted Khalsa ji's feeling...

Khalsa ji,

I ask for your forgiveness with folded hands too, for I asked you if you have become lion on your own authority... If possible please forgive me thinking of me as your younger brother who just talked loud... :{-

I'm too small before the Guru whose refuge you have taken... I'm not fortunate enough to have found that refuge yet....... I can only pray !!


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aa mil yaar saar le meri, meri jaan dukhaan ne gheri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Andar khvaab vichoda hoya, khabar na paindi teri.
Sunni ban vich lutti saiyaan, chor shaang ne gheri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mullah qazi saahnu raah bataavan, dein dharam de pheri.
Eh taan thug ne jagg de jheevar, laavan jaal chuferi.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karam sharaan de dharam bataavan, sangal paavan pairi,
Zaat mazhab eh ishk na puchhda, ishk shara da vairi.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nadiyon paar mulak sajan da, lobh lehar ne gheri,
Satgur beddi phaddi khalote, taen kyun layi a deri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bulla shah shauh tennu milsi, dil nu deh dileri,
Preetam paas te tolna kisnu, bhulliyon sikhar dupehri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aa mil yaar saar le meri, meri jaan dukhaan ne gheri.[/FONT]


Khalsa ji chote vir di bhul chuk maaf !!

 

[drkhalsa]

Khalsa ji,

I ask for your forgiveness with folded hands too, for I asked you if you have become lion on your own authority... If possible please forgive me thinking of me as your younger brother who just talked loud...

I'm too small before the Guru whose refuge you have taken... I'm not fortunate enough to have found that refuge yet....... I can only pray !!


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aa mil yaar saar le meri, meri jaan dukhaan ne gheri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Andar khvaab vichoda hoya, khabar na paindi teri.
Sunni ban vich lutti saiyaan, chor shaang ne gheri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mullah qazi saahnu raah bataavan, dein dharam de pheri.
Eh taan thug ne jagg de jheevar, laavan jaal chuferi.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karam sharaan de dharam bataavan, sangal paavan pairi,
Zaat mazhab eh ishk na puchhda, ishk shara da vairi.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nadiyon paar mulak sajan da, lobh lehar ne gheri,
Satgur beddi phaddi khalote, taen kyun layi a deri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bulla shah shauh tennu milsi, dil nu deh dileri,
Preetam paas te tolna kisnu, bhulliyon sikhar dupehri.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aa mil yaar saar le meri, meri jaan dukhaan ne gheri.[/FONT]


Khalsa ji chote vir di bhul chuk maaf !!

Dear Brother /Friend

I just felt like saying all this but I am not upset at all ! believe me.I didint react to your comments
You post post shows that you are senstive human being and that is the blessing and I think this is what God improved in me in past few years making me more sensetive So friend you are already blessed.

So no problem keep writing !

Anyway thisa bulleh Shah Kafee is too nice !

Thanks for that

Jatinder singh

 

[harbansj24]

Dear all participants,

Guruji does not manifest himself by direct miracles but through series of very unlikely coincidences. When such incidents take place repeatedly, you do realise that there is a higher benign power that looks after you. When things do not go well, as human beings we do start doubting the existance of Guru. But we need to take one small step towards the Guru and then Guruji will take millions of steps to reach out to us. I am unable to quote this tuk verbatim.

Even Mother Teressa had doubted the existance of God on several occassions during the last 4 decades of her life. This has come out clearly during the discussions taking place in Vatican on her Cannonisation with evidence on record. But Vatican has decided to go ahead with the cannonisation saying that she was not God but just a human being and all human beings are subjected to such doubts several times during ther life in times of distress.

But when Guru ke pyare seek His intervention Guru definitely reaches out to His pyare in ways that we can never decipher. This can be testified by innumrable Gursikhs.

Regards

Harbans

 

[TGill]

harbans ji
I think you posted on the wrong thread.

This thread is related to Sikh without flowing hair. So on those lines I asked my friends if there is substantial evidence that Guruji asked for keeping hair to his sikhs. I haven't found any compelling evidence, please contribute if you have any. Only evidence is Dasam Granth but people have doubt on Dasam Granth itself i.e. if this granth is Guruji's original composition or not. Nihangs believe in Dasam Granth ansd Sarab loh granth but these people have so many traditions like eating jhatka meat, drinking bhang and so on which no regular sikh will agree too these of being Guruji's advice.

And there are many stupid things that people do in the name of five K's that it looks almost idiotic to normal mind e.g. Not flying by airplane cos you can't fly with kirpan.... These people then advocate khalistan so that then you have ur own airlines and sikhs can fly with kirpans...

You are right harbans ji that when you move towards the Guru, Guru comes even faster towards you, but that is an inward journey. Then what about these stupidities of external look...
bhul chuk maaf...

 

[D-Singh]

People have too idealistic notions of keeping hair. In my personal experience, it has been difficult. At 11 years of age, it caused traction alopecia..and my parents answer was to make me wear a turban.

The stress caused some alopecia areata, and I have bumps on my scalp called cutis verticis gyrata. All caused by ignorance by having my hair tied into a jura.

I am beyond the angry and depression stage, I just feel numb now. To the point where I see through the comfort of religion.

I thought I was the only one, until I met someone who also has traction alopecia caused by being a Sikh.

I can of course, only speak from my experiences. I have grown up around other Sikh males who have disgusted me. Drinking, being racist toward other religions and thinking they are better...because they wear a turban.

I think the external appearance of a person is secondary to the internal appearance. And by being forced to wear a turban, it took away my freedom.
To the point where I have been suicidal. I see so much ignorance, and I feel I have a right to voice my opinion because being a Sikh has caused so much pain. It is upto the individual to do whatever he or she wants.

You can force people to be aware of God, by having external symbols. But bringing about a true awakening of God, lies within allowing yourself to search and understand the nature of the world.

Why can't we enjoy the external world? I have an understanding of life and the internal world, of consciousness...which is like a wave of energy surging throughout my body..this happens everytime I remember I am breathing. Its a humbling experience to just watch my breath.

I would never let this happen to my son, but then my parents were conditioned by their parents..and so on. I just hope that any other Sikh males who are suffering from traction alopecia to seek help.

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear D Singh

Welcome to the forum !

Thanks for your post

I feel really sorry to see your painful experience you have been put through as part of lofe and that too being a sikh


I agree with your point That Traction alopacia is seen in Male Sikh adolesecent and the main cause is faulty method of tying Hair KNOT( JURAA) . It seems to be more prevalent in Punjabi Sikh families for their particular way of tying JURAA and less in non Punjabi sikh cultures ( sikh from outside punjab including Western sikh )

I also personally feel thatthere should be awareness about the same aming sikhs and your post like this will help in creating more awareness.


About ALOPECIA AERATA ( it effects whole body hairs not just head ) AND CUTIS VERTICUS GYRATA : thereare many causes
Mainly : Gnetics/hereditary and Hormone Imbalance and many others including depression as pointed by you .

ALOPECIA is in general quite common in males and in every race and religion

You are right in Saying that most sikh use Turban as instrument of convinienec to boast about culture and such stuff but this is no different from rest of society everybody just live life for the convienince

One of my Friend 28 years old has gone almost bald due to androgen associate dalopecia which is kind of normal happening in many mailes ,Now is Tying Turban just hide his alopecia ( he has never tied turban in his lif e) now what is this its the same question of convinience

Why can't we enjoy the external world? I have an understanding of life and the internal world, of consciousness...which is like a wave of energy surging throughout my body..this happens everytime I remember I am breathing. Its a humbling experience to just watch my breath.

Not everybody is deviod of enjoying external world by just keeping hairs .Atleast I enjoy external world fully

I would never let this happen to my son

I also think same about myself !

I just hope that any other Sikh males who are suffering from traction alopecia to seek help.

Well for alopecia there is not medical treatment till date ( except surgical implantation ) so I dont know what kind of help you are refering here
well best option available is to hide the alopecia with CAP and may be Turban for sikh ( if he does not have an issue with it in particular!!)



here ia small reviw of this problem in medical journal

http://www.jabfm.org/cgi/content/full/20/5/497

 

[BaljeetSingh]

Here are my two cents on this...

I live in United States and since my son is the only Sikh student in the elementary school, I and my wife go to our son's class every year and introduce ourselves to the students and the teacher and answer their questions about our "appearance". So, at the beginning of thi school year, we went to our son's class and showed what was under his patka. We actually took off his patka (though we kept his head covered all the times with the open patka, but kids got a view of what was under the patka. The kids and their teacher were all very excited and had many questions. We answered all of them to the best of our knowledge. At the end came the dreaded question....The teacher asked....What if your son decides not to keep his long hair when he grows up....Though I was not prepared for this question, but the simple answer that came out of me instantly was as follows...

By definition "Sikh" means "student" who follows the teachings of his/her "Guru" or "teacher". If a student does not follow the teachings of guru, then he is no longer a student. Keeping long hair is one of the teachings of our guru. If a "Sikh" cuts his hair, then he is simply not a "student" or "Sikh". Period.

 

[amar7979]

'SHAMEFUL' IS WHAT COMES TO MY MIND TO ALL THOSE WHO SHORN THEIR HAIR AND CALL THESELVES AS SIKHS !!

Very rightly quoted by 'truthseekar' : WHY TRY TO FIT IN WHEN YOU WERE ONLY BORN TO STAND OUT

The Importance of Hair in Sikh Philosophy and practice

In Sikh philosophy and practice, the keeping of unshaven hair (Kesh) means that the Sikh lives in and resigns himself to the Will of God (Hukam). Again it is by the Will of God that man has been created the highest being in God's creation. This wonderful universe with its innumerable suns and planets came into being according to His command (Hukam). The whole of His creation and the laws that govern it and operate the highly complicated system of the universe, are in accordance with His Will. God's Will is supreme. Guru Nanak, the founder of the Sikh faith, writes about this supreme Will of the Creator in Japji: "By the Will of God all forms come into being. The working of that Will cannot be described. It is by His Will that the forms develop life in them and grow exalted; Some become good and others evil, And receive pain and pleasure accordingly. By that Will some are brought under grace; And the others are doomed forever. All the subject to the supreme Will, none is outside its pale, Nanak, if this be rightly understood, no one would assert himself. "

It was thus quite apt that the form and appearance of the Guru's Sikh should essentially be that which God almighty has given him according to His Will (Hukam). A woman's beauty lies in her smooth skin and rounded face while a man's beard signifies his masculinity, strength and virility. In a debate at Mecca, Guru Nanak explained his viewpoint regarding the Kesh (unshaven hair) to Pir Bahauddin in the following words reported in the Janam Sakhi (Traditional Story) :
Pir Bahauddin: Why have, you, O Baba Nanak, overlooked both the Hindu and Muslim traditions in their entirety?
Baba Nanak: Listen Bahauddin, I tell you that both the Hindus and the Muslims have degraded themselves by shaving their hair.
Pir Bahauddin: Without the Muslim law, no one can become pure. Without circumcision, a man cannot receive honour in God's court.
Baba Nanak: The real circumcision is to live in God's Will. One should die with the hair intact; the hair with which one is born. He who keeps the hair as God's trust, is really a great man. The first circumcision is the hair and keeping it on the head is to live in His Will. He who keeps the hair intact, lives by honest labour, and shuns other's right, is honoured by God. Some undergo circumcision, others cut holes in their ears; it is only the dishonest who try to tamper with God's gift of completeness of human form.
Finally Guru Nanak declared that with a turban on, the human form becomes complete in all respects and the unshaven hair is the symbol of the one universal religion, which we all inherit at birth.
The sanctity of keeping uncut hair (Kesh) with Keski (Turban) on has been observed by all Sikh Gurus (From Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh) and it was Guru Arjan who wrote in Raag Maru (page 1084 of the Sikh Holy Book.) "Sabat Surat Dastar Sira" which means 'Keep the God-given form intact with a turban donned on your head'. The tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, the founder of the Khalsa, gave the command that these symbols (5 K's) are a must. These are a mode of discipline signifying the wearer's belongingness to the Khalsa. The five K's are a test of a Sikh's firmness and strength of his faith. They foster Brotherhood and a sense of unity. They make a Sikh look like the Guru himself and inspire him to follow the Guru's command. Guru Gobind Singh wrote the following about his Khalsa: "The Khalsa is my own special form I always manifest in the Sikhs (Khalsa). The Khalsa is my body and soul".

 

[TGill]

Please don't talk like Pir bahaudin - Muslims can get many references from Koran that circumcision is required to get grace in God's dargah. Similarly you have got that hair are necessary, please explain the difference.

The same Guru also says that hair is not important to be spiritually great in the form of Kabir.

- People who cut hair may not be gurus sikh but people who just keep hair and say that they are Guru's sikh are not sikhs for sure. Their ego of being great make them fall from that stature.

 

[amar7979]

Veerji,

Most humbly i would like to reply..
I would not comment on the Muslim viewpoint on the subject. Each and every religion has certain fundamental commandments. The Sikhism is no exception, too. God did not add anything, including hair, to human body which could be termed as superfluous. Thus, trimming the hair amounts not only declining the gift given by God but also disfiguring the shape given to man by Akalpurkh i.e. Lord God. In other words, it can also be taken to mean that by so doing man takes pleasure in finding faults in the blue print prepared by God and thus showing off himself as better qualified and more competent than the creator Lord. In sum, this amount to endeavor equaling Him and even excelling Him by trying to improve upon His work. Ironically, the creation is getting zealous to override the Creator, thereby allowing ungratefulness to predominate. These hairs are the gift, which God bestows upon him while sending him on to this earth. It is another matter that except Sikhs nobody else endeavors to learn and abide by this will of Almighty. They also do not seem to be in a mood to value this precious Divine gift as much as they ought to. Man considers himself highly cultured. A follower of the Sikh faith does realize that God has blessed him with the sacred hair from his very birth, and these remain with him till his death.
If we look from the point of view of the naturalists we see that they believe the existence of two ways to live life. One is to live in conformity with nature and the other is to live in conflict with it. The first is the way of harmony and the second is the way of a conqueror who wishes to subjugate and dominate leading to personal and public nuisances. The Gurmet or the Sikh way is one which accepts no dichotomy between man and nature as is enjoined upon Sikhs by Guru Nanak in Bara Maha and Guru Gobind Singh in Akal Ustat and both these Banis serve as the foundation of the Sikh oral and orational practices

Concludingly…

I do agree that wearing 5K’s does not automatically make a good Sikh and in addition to this, wearing the 5 K’s without understanding their purpose is silly. The 5 K’s are not meaningless symbols, instead they are blessings which aid us in living a life revolving around God and submission to His Will.

 

[TGill]

I understand your point now Amarpreet ji and you are right in a way.

But just one last question. Assume a person is amritdhari, can he leave his kirpan in his check in luggage while he is flying to a foreign country or is that wrong ?

 

[amar7979]

Gill Sahib,

Im glad my efforts qualified your viewpoints.

This question itself could be a new thread of discussion.
Kirpan (kirpa: mercy and aan: honour) symbolises power and freedom of spirit, and is a 'reminder' to Sikhs to fight injustice and oppression and not an instrument of violence.

Personally expressing my views ….Since the Kirpan symbolizes a spirit to fight injustice and as long as this spirit prevails within us, I don’t feel there’s any harm in leaving his/her kirpan in Check in Luggage while boarding a plane. See - until the other co-passengers on board can feel safe (and we all know what 9/11 has done about safety in the air...), I think that the Khalsa has a moral responsibility to ensure that the human beings whom they are supposed to protect actually feel safe.


New flight regulations requires Passengers traveling on an airplanes to place their kirpans in checked baggage only (not in cabin hand bags). While this procedure may not be acceptable to all, airplanes present unique security concerns, that mandate this policy.

Many organizations are working with government(s) to protect the free exercise of religion and the right to bear arms through their constitutions, states and regulations.
Lets be optimistic on that and keep up the good spirit. A day will come my friend when the whole world will understand the difference between a ‘dagger’ and ‘Kirpan’ and admire the Kirpan as an article of faith.

 

[TGill]

Since the Kirpan symbolizes a spirit to fight injustice and as long as this spirit prevails within us, I don’t feel there’s any harm in leaving his/her kirpan in Check in Luggage while boarding a plane

Thank God !!

 

[Damo_Singh]

I do not have long hair as I have just begun my journey into Sikhism; however, I will not cut my hair or shave my beard ever again. I do not wear a turban, but as soon as I buy one and learn how to place it on my head, I will wear it with pride. I have none of the 5 K's
but I hope to obtain and carry them with respect.

As an American I often here ignorant remarks made about Sikhs who are mistaken for Muslims. Most of the Sikhs in my small American town are respected doctors of medicine.

Most working class Americans are angry and fearful since what has become known as 9/11. They are suspicious of that which they don't understand.

I had a Hindu friend for years on the internet who always spoke of Sikhs with the utmost respect.

Here in America there is an expression that the nail that stick out is struck with the hammer. I am sorry to hear of these young people who have been born into such a beautiful religion forsaking its traditions for fear of being a nail that sticks out.

Perhaps, I should hold my tongue until after I have become a Sikh. I do not mean to offend anyone. I was a soldier in Vietnam and I studied martial arts for nearly forty years, but as I learn more each day about the wealth of knowledge contained in the Sikh literature, I am nearly brought to tears by God's love.

 

[simarjeet kaur]

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh its really sad that even parents are not making their children aware of sikhism .more awareness should be made by organising camps bySGPC.ESPECIALLY IN RURAL AREAS .groundreality is that people are not aware because of iiliteracy.