A Sikh Without His Flowing Hair And Turban

[Archived_Member_19]

one more question-

w2hat were Gurus opposing?

1. conversion to islam

2. forcible conversion to islam

3. infringement of individual's right to follow and practise any religion


urge all to think abt this and reply...

this can help us build the discussion on "Sikh Beliefs" - "sikh rituals" and "Sikh tenants"

as it is very important to distinguish between the three...

 

[TGill]

Jatinder Singh ji,

help ! waiting for the text? sorry for bothering you so much.

 

[drkhalsa]

< sRI vwihgurU jI kI Pqih ]
sRi muKvwk pwiqswhI 10 ]
inswin isKI eIN pMj hriP Asq kwP ]
hrigj nw bwsd eIN pMj muAwP ] 1]
kVw kwrdo k`C kMGy ibdW ]
iblw kys hyc Asq jumly insW ] 2]
hrP hkwieq Asq AjI pMj kwP]
ibdw nMd bwvr n goXm iKlwP ] 3]
hu`kw hjwmq hlwlo hrwm ]
bwrIsy ihnw krd rU isXw Pwm ] 4] 1]
(AsPokt sÍYXy, sRI dsm gRMQ)
The following five K’s are the mark of Sikhi.These five can never be parted from the body. Kara, Kirpan, Kashera, Kangha, recognise these as four of them.The fifth is Kesh, without which the other four are useless. There are also four H’s which must be avoided. Understand this without any doubt, no lies have been told. Hukka, taking tobacco (including any other type of intoxicants). Hajamat, removing of hair. Halalo, eating meat. Haram, adultery (sexual relationships outside of marriage). These are the four H’s. Dyeing of beards (including any other body hair), and the wearing of mehndi (including other types of make up) are strictly forbidden.
(Sri Dasam Granth)



Vijaydeep singh helped me find this from dasam Granth as I mentioned earlier

 

[TGill]

Thanks Jatinder Singh ji,

You were talking about the hukamnama at anandpur sahib, any luck on that !!

 

[drkhalsa]

Hmm Not sure !

But definately we can get something more in this regard but it will be more feasible after last week of Sept ( I am giving my exam )

 

[kds1980]

Thanks Jatinder Singh ji,

You were talking about the hukamnama at anandpur sahib, any luck on that !!

(ADVANCED STUDIES IN SIKHISM by Jasbir Singh and Harbans Singh.):

"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga
Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai
Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena
Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair;
Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna
SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna
Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna
Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha
Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana
Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe
Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso
Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna
Guru kee rahat rakhnee
Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.
Patshahi Dasvi
Jeth 26, Samat 1756


To the entire sangat at Kabul.
The Guru will protect the Sangat,
I am pleased with you all.
You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds.
Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru,
Accept the use of shorts and a sword.
Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist,
Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day.
Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat,
Do not use tobacco in any form,
Have no connection with those who kill their daughters
Or permit the cutting of their children's hair.
Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults)
Recite the Guru's hymns
Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord",
Follow the Sikh code of discipline
I give the entire sangat my blessing)
Signature of 10th Guru
Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami 23rd May 1699 A.D

i think this is the hukamnama

 

[kds1980]

< sRI vwihgurU jI kI Pqih ]
sRi muKvwk pwiqswhI 10 ]
inswin isKI eIN pMj hriP Asq kwP ]
hrigj nw bwsd eIN pMj muAwP ] 1]
kVw kwrdo k`C kMGy ibdW ]
iblw kys hyc Asq jumly insW ] 2]
hrP hkwieq Asq AjI pMj kwP]
ibdw nMd bwvr n goXm iKlwP ] 3]
hu`kw hjwmq hlwlo hrwm ]
bwrIsy ihnw krd rU isXw Pwm ] 4] 1]
(AsPokt sÍYXy, sRI dsm gRMQ)
The following five K’s are the mark of Sikhi.These five can never be parted from the body. Kara, Kirpan, Kashera, Kangha, recognise these as four of them.The fifth is Kesh, without which the other four are useless. There are also four H’s which must be avoided. Understand this without any doubt, no lies have been told. Hukka, taking tobacco (including any other type of intoxicants). Hajamat, removing of hair. Halalo, eating meat. Haram, adultery (sexual relationships outside of marriage). These are the four H’s. Dyeing of beards (including any other body hair), and the wearing of mehndi (including other types of make up) are strictly forbidden.
(Sri Dasam Granth)



Vijaydeep singh helped me find this from dasam Granth as I mentioned earlier

If i am not wrong this shabad is not avaailable in the online version of dasam granth.
can anybody tell me the reason why.

 

[harbansj24]

There is nothing to get confused. Guru Gobind Singh ji on 13th April 1699 gave the Amritdhari Sikhs a very unique and majestic identiry which has been passed down through generations. So even non amritdhari Sikhs have adopted it by which a Sikh is easily identified. A Sabat Surat Sikh has to think twice before he does anything unethical because whenever such a person is involved in wrongdoing it will be said that a Sikh has done wrong. This is not so with any other community. It does not mean that a keshdhari Sikh does no wrong but whenever he does, the whole community gets identified so that it does make him that much more careful. Similarly whenever a Sikh does something good, he brings a good name to community.

Thanks to Dr. Manmohan Singh, the whole world is better informed about Sikhs now.

Harbans

 

[TGill]

How many sikhs are there who keep their hair intact(not jus the turban) and have reached international fame? If there is any who are they (except harbhajan singh yogi, that is a different case) ?

If there is no one, why is it so?

 

[kds1980]

How many sikhs are there who keep their hair intact(not jus the turban) and have reached international fame? If there is any who are they (except harbhajan singh yogi, that is a different case) ?

If there is no one, why is it so?

What do you mean by international fame?.do you want to know names of sikh sportsmen,actors,politicians etc.

 

[TGill]

Yup, international fame means - a majority of people all over the world knew someone at some point in time e.g. Milkha Singh who by the way used to cut his beard.

 

[kds1980]

Yup, international fame means - a majority of people all over the world knew someone at some point in time e.g. Milkha Singh who by the way used to cut his beard.

well at present monty panesar a bowler in english cricket team is very popular in all cricket playing nations.he keeps his hair and beard uncut.

Also manmohan singh the prime minister of india is famous politician.

also you should look at the over all population of sikhs in world .it is 25 million from which
70% do cut their hair or trim their beard.so how many sikhs are left just 7.5 million.now with 0.1 % sikhs with uncut beard and hair how many of them are going to become world famous.

 

[TGill]

Does Manmohan Singh not cut his beard . Even I'm not sure now.

Well, Monty Panesar - who knows if he doesn't. anyone else ?

On the contrary, the list of others (non-sikh - sikhs) is pretty long- what say !

By the way, why is the ratio so skewed 70% to 30%.

My question is not about reaching that fame, my question is why keshdhari sikhs are found mostly in extremist surroundings and not liberal. Why are we not able to tell sikhs to keep their hair without giving some stories of which we oursleves are not sure of !!

Why are we bothered more of nonessential than the essential.

It is a question of what to keep the root or the tree ? If root is there tree can again grow, without root tree can only die.

 

[kds1980]

My question is not about reaching that fame, my question is why keshdhari sikhs are found mostly in extremist surroundings and not liberal. Why are we not able to tell sikhs to keep their hair without giving some stories of which we oursleves are not sure of !!

Why are we bothered more of nonessential than the essential.

It is a question of what to keep the root or the tree ? If root is there tree can again grow, without root tree can only die.

well your conclusion that keshdhari sikhs are found in extremist environment is not true.
most of the urban sikhs in india are of khatri,arora etc caste they are not extremist but they are very much keshdhari.they are quite liberal they have many matrimonial alliance,s with hindu's.so you cannot say that keshdhari sikhs are extremists.

your second question has no answer.for many sikhs keeping hair is now very much emotional issue.They can't even imagine their sons without turban and beard.So it is matter of faith now if someone beleive that kesh is important then keep it or just do whatever you want.

Btw i agree with you. sikhism is giving too much importance to 5ks rather than developing spirituality and gurbani.

 

[FiveLovedOnes]

LIONS R NOT BORN BUT PRODUCED.

Guru made his sikhs Lions by putting them on extensive Exercises n weapons training n making their life most tough than ever.Guru Only motive was to convert ordinary weak people into Roaring lions who once attack its enemy means he is all over n must run to find a place to save its life.He Taught his sikhs never to give up in battle against its enemy even if its enemy is much larger in no. than Khalsa Force n use all its might n power that he gained thru days n nights of exercises to crush the enemy.Lions Never hide n r always visible n unlike tiger that is always invisible.While Lions never Hide n attack its prey(enemy) who is many folds powerful in might but Lions never give up n bring it to its end.That 's kind of Lions Guru ji created.Let the enemy be any big n much stronger but Khalsa never gives n must bring its enemy to kneels n make them run from the Battle field.A lion never runs from its field.All these things r clearly visible thru Guru 's Shabad.Now question is how big Hairs of Lions in Jungle interfere in their big force attacks n their life.
Those who give up their hairs will certainly lose their Lionship becoz this Lion-spirit come only by carefully listening to guru 's bachans n then following them without giving up thru extensive hardwork n hardship.

Khalsa sohe joh dust koh Galeeh(CRUSH THE ENEMY TO END N NEVER GIVE UP TILL HE WINS)

Khalsa sohe joh nit kare Jang(prepare for Real Battles against dusts/enemies everyday)

Koi Kishe ko Raaj Nah deh hain
Joh Lain Hain Nij bal peh Lain Hain(To produce BAL(MIGHT) one has to follow exact Guru's words n putting himself/herself on extesive exercises n weapons fighting training everyday -DAY N NIGHT.SLEEP LESS.Remember Lions r not born but produced thru shear hard work everyday n every moment)
To get any raaj one has TO RISE N ATTACK ITS ENEMY WITH FORCE N MIGHT AND FIGHT ITS ENEMY TILL THEY EITHER RUN AWAY OR DEFEATED.No other way.

A sikh is one who once someone attacks him should shake his soul.One who sleeps even after many arrows hit him is a Jackal infact.Lions hit by one arrows come back n attack its enemy.
Jabbeh Baan Laghooh Tabeehah Roos Jagoohah -Guru Gobind Singh - My King Of Lions Force.

Two innocent sahabjadehes were martyred n Khalsa under the leader Banda Singh Bahadur attacked all Sarhind n crushed every force n every enemy there.They were real Lions of Guru who revenged innocent killing of two Shabjadees.They really felt the arrow hitting them n they raised back like lions.True Lions with full hairs n beard.Roaring Lions who really attack n crush their enemies.

Today Indian Govt has prisoned more than 50,000 innocent sikhs in jails.During 1984 roits hindus killed hundreds of innocent sikhs n attacked our Golden temple n killed hundreds of our Innocent Pilgrims n sikhs of today r still lying sleeping as if no arrow hit them yet.One arrow should be enough to raise up the Lion.But Sikhs of today r like dead lions.They r wasting their time on foolish isssues while ur enemy is becoming stronger n stronger.

Today's sikhs r like dead trees who don't know anything about changing weather.Lions r produced by raising ur Sleeping lion by following toughship n thru extensive exercises n never giving up.

:advocate: If u think that u will become a Guru ka Lion by simply keeping hairs then u r badly wrong.Even Sheeps have long hairs n males have long beard.But without weapons n hardships a sikh too is a sheep even if he grows his beard n moustaches.U can become guru ka Lion by following all his Hukum.Easy n most tough ones.:advocate:

Look at ur Past HISTORY.WHAT GURU TEACHES US ALL.Guru Ramdas was Ordered by Guru AngadDevJi to get water from River Viaas n give a bath to Guru at 2:00 in mid night.Guru Ramdas ji were nearly 70 years then n they never said to Guru Angad Dev ji that I am getting Old n so this is tough for me.

:advocate: This teaches every sikh that every sikh must must follow all hukums of guruji however tough they r.Guru Gobind Singh Handed over Swords n Thaals (shields) in the hands of people who were never had any experience of any such things n put them on very hardship n they never said NO to guru ji.Those who did Guru ji never accepted them.Only Those were crowned with Sikhi N Khlasa Medals those who accepted tough lifes n toughest exercises training n extensive Weapons Training DAYS N NIGHTS BY LESS SLEEP N SLEEPING ON HARD GROUNDS n SPEND THEIR NIGHTS TRAINING WITH MINIMUM SLEEP.Guru ji Made them sleep on Horse backs n made them live in Jungles n tough beds of rocks n tough ground.Only such people were crowned with lionship by guruji n not those who turned by saying NO to Guruji 's HUKUMS.
So understand urself first by noting down how much u obey ur Guru 's toughest orders EVERYDAY.How much u raise ur Lion within u EVERYDAY.How much u prepare for battle EVERYDAY n how many hours n how many times during DAY N NIGHT without loosing ur CHARDI KALA(The spirit that comes only thru tough lifestyle n extensive Exercises n Shear Hard Training).Ask urself all this questions n find out how much u r a Guru Ka Lion.Only worrying about ur Beard n Hairs will make u a incomplete Lion(SINGH) of Guru.Use Modern Technology to listen to Gurubani while Weapons Training n Extensive Body-Tearing Exercises.This is what Guru Gobind Singh Ji n Guru Hargobind Ji DID to convert common people into Lions ready all time to pounce on its enemy with greatest Force.

All r important.5 ks,Guru Shabad n Following,Preparing like Lions for Battles,n all other Baachans of Gurus.Remember it was guru Nanak who Picked up Sword in sixth Jama (Guru Hargobind - the most powerful man of the Earth born who could lift his enemy n throw his enemy on the hard ground right on his Head crushing him into pieces.It was Guru Hargobind who roared in Battle field while facing his own-trained Enemy(read History) n said to his Enemy that U don't know how to Use the Sword.Let me teach U how to.Guru Ji in one blow like a lion cut his Enemy Head teaching him how to use Sword.Sikhs around in the battle field watched their King of Lions Guru watch all this.All praised his shear might n bowed their to their Mighty guru.That's the Power n Chardi Kala the Guru Hargobind Possessed.
He Made his force just like him.Every sikh in his force was like a powerful Lion who could stand before Hundreds n say come if u want to fight with me then stay or else run away right now.Such was CHARDI KALA of GURU HARGOBIND 's LIONS.THEY FIGHT TO BRING THEIR ENEMIES TO DEFEAT OR RUN AWAY FROM THE BATTLE FIELD.

SO BE A TRUE LION.TRUE LION OF GURU.TRUE IN OUTER FORM N INNER N PHYSICAL MIGHT.ALWAYS ROARING N READY TO ATTACK HIS ENEMY N RAISE UP WITH ONE ARROW STRIKE OF UR ENEMY.THAT'S WHAT MAKES U A SINGH OF GURU GOBIND SINGH N GURU NANAK.

IF U WANT TO BECOME GURU KA SHEER (LION) THEN ACCEPT ALL HIS ORDERS.PUT URSELF ON TOUGH PATHS N BODY-TEARING TRAINING EVERDAY.BE THE TOUGHEST N UNCONQUERABLE.ONLY THEN U WILL BE ACCEPTED BY GURU.IF U FACE THE GURU LIKE A LOSER N WITHOUT RAISING AGAINST UR ENEMY DESPITE HE CAUSED SO MUCH LOSS ON UR SIKHS N UR HOLY PLACES U WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED BY GURU EVEN IF U HAVE FULL HAIRS.GURU ONLY ACCEPTS LIONS N NOT SHEEPS.:advocate:.


SAT SIRI AKALAAA...................................................

 

[TGill]

Who said only lions are accepted by Guru and not sheeps. I say only sheeps are accepted by Guru, and then these sheeps become real lions.

Why bother whether sheeps keep their hair or not !

Guru Rakha....

 

[BhagatSingh]

Who said only lions are accepted by Guru and not sheeps. I say only sheeps are accepted by Guru, and then these sheeps become real lions.

Why bother whether sheeps keep their hair or not !

Guru Rakha....

There is this article on Search Sikhism Home Page called Hair or Hail Hair
read it if you haven't already.

-Bhagat

 

[drkhalsa]

Who said only lions are accepted by Guru and not sheeps. I say only sheeps are accepted by Guru, and then these sheeps become real lions.

Why bother whether sheeps keep their hair or not !

Exactly No body is bothering about sheeps :}{}{}:
But we are bothering about real loins that Guru Gobind singh Ji made

what do you say about loins..eh!

Anyway we can see many sheeps sroling around even today ,may be they didint get chance to meet their guru. I guess may be too much loins are no good to ecosystem as they will eat all sheeps so that could be the reason :rofl!!:

Sheeps are shaven to get wool out of there skin But no body dares to touch hair of Loin Mustache (just joking plz dont mind )
I think you are caught in your own words:crazy:

 

[FiveLovedOnes]

Who said only lions are accepted by Guru and not sheeps. I say only sheeps are accepted by Guru, and then these sheeps become real lions.

Why bother whether sheeps keep their hair or not !

Guru Rakha....

:}{}{}:Ha ha................Kush Kita eeh mere Yaar.Bahoot Sunnee Gal Kitee Mere yaar.Sun Ke dil Kush ho Gaya.

But my friend when i said sheeps r not accepted by Guru I meant those people who don't want to go Guru 's Shelter/Saran or say no to Guru ji always remain sheep.Those who go will certaintly be changed to Lions.Guru 's words r powerful n one who listens very very carefully be transformed for sure.Condition is he/she listens n follows.Only then miracles happen or else sheep remains a sheep.Ha ha..........
Take care my friend n have lot of fun as well.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<Only then miracles happen or else sheep remains a sheep.Ha ha..........>>

do you really believe in miracles?