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Why Am I Sikh?

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
my point is that you are not doing what god wants you to do!

Did you know - Quran (4:34) orders a man to beat his wife if she doesn't obey him?
Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Do you want to say that all men should do what is written above.Do god created men physically stronger so that they can beat their wives. I am sorry to say but only an insane
person will accept this as word of god
 

Archived_Member_19

(previously amarsanghera, account deactivated at t
SPNer
Jun 7, 2006
1,323
145
<<an assumption needs evidence to become presumption, presumption needs enough evidence to become a fact!>>

so please show me "evidence" that "God" or "source" wants to be "understood" and "followed"
 

humanist

SPNer
Oct 24, 2004
18
0
72
Delhi (India)
As per Vishnu Puran, a God's Messenger was to be born in Western India to teach the Hindu masses to segregate spiritualism from ritualism. Hence, Guru Nanak was born in Talwandi, and those who followed his teachings were called the 'shishya'. Ultimately, the individual Members of the martial force (raised by dedicating the eldest son in every Punjabi family to this force), also came to be called the 'shishyas' or Sikhs; and the said force was collectively named the 'Khalsa'.
 
Apr 4, 2007
934
29
As per Vishnu Puran, a God's Messenger was to be born in Western India to teach the Hindu masses to segregate spiritualism from ritualism. Hence, Guru Nanak was born in Talwandi, and those who followed his teachings were called the 'shishya'. Ultimately, the individual Members of the martial force (raised by dedicating the eldest son in every Punjabi family to this force), also came to be called the 'shishyas' or Sikhs; and the said force was collectively named the 'Khalsa'.


are you suggesting that Khalsa is somehow seperate from the original sikh panth? :confused:
 

Archived_Member_19

(previously amarsanghera, account deactivated at t
SPNer
Jun 7, 2006
1,323
145
can you please show me what was pre partition india map?
assuming india in 2000 BC here is what the map would have looked like
ramayan.gif



this still looks like Talwandi is in north as it is above Hastinapur which seems like North to me.

west would be something like Mahismati


or do you know where the person was when "he/she" wrote Vishnu puran?
 
Apr 4, 2007
934
29
or do you know where the person was when "he/she" wrote Vishnu puran?


the legendary Vyasa, the supposed author of the purans was from somewhere in what's now UP.

however there's very little evidence as to who the actual author(s) of the puranas were, most likely they're compilations of legends and stories from all over india.

regardless of who wrote it or where he lived, i think it's a broad stretch to assume there's really a story about the sikh gurus in there. :)
 

kay

SPNer
Nov 8, 2007
77
0
The all you have posted is plain garbage .Just go to Faith Freedom International :: Index and then see how anti islamic scholars will tear your claim into peices.Do you have guts to do it?

I have already been to these sites, and I have given u answer to one of the questions people have posed. If u want answers I can help u, but it this is about winnning or loosing, forget it! U will never understand!
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
I have already been to these sites, and I have given u answer to one of the questions people have posed. If u want answers I can help u, but it this is about winnning or loosing, forget it! U will never understand!

It is mainly muslims who don't want to understand anything and wants to prove that quran is scientific textbook.which is already refuted by many scientists.Btw i don't have unlimited download connection so please reply intexts rather than posting videos
 

wizesikh

SPNer
Nov 8, 2007
19
20
Hehe, I am aware of what an agnostic is. Of course I am agnostic, I think most of the world is, even the people who claim
to be religious or part of a religion. Everyone is agnostic to some extent. I claim to be an atheist because on a discussion
forum, agnostic is a "soft term". It usually implies one does not know the answer, nor wishes to find the answer, is just too
lazy. That's how we always used it growing up. Hence, why I usually take the term of Atheist on.
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Agnostic is a soft term, you are at a point where you cant decide if there is a god or not.. The reason you claim to be a atheist is because I believe you have not yet studied your Guru Granth Sahib ji.


I agree most people are agnostic, even religious ones.. That’s why we have so much confusion in faith of god.
We all tend to do what we are supposed to do (rituals, holidays, etc..), but hardly any do it with faith, and realization
That there is a god. They do it because that is what they are suppose to do.. They don’t have the understanding as
To why they do it.

That’s one of the major reasons why people give up on god... because so many people who appear to be religious
don’t have a clue of where they are headed... That is also the major reason why Your Guru Nanak Dev Ji took the
duty to come down to earth to help people.. That is why he traveled all over to discuss with all these ignorant
Agnostic religious holy men about why they perform the religious rituals that they did without true devotion to god...

a holy man/women (saint) is a person who people look up to for guidance and love for existence... but when that
Holy man/women only wears religious garments and has no clue of what god is ... then people Who look up to him develop hate for god... and tend to believe there is no god...

As human beings we look up to a leader for support and guidance.. but when that leader himself is corrupt..
and his corruption his discovered.. Then we tend to let go of everything and run the opposite direction.


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Isn't that what a purpose in life is? I'm not pointing out things that need to be changed, I'm pointing out things I WANT to
Change in my life-time. That is my purpose of life, it is to change these things which effect humanity drastically in the
Present. Perhaps, I don't fully understand your question, but I was not simply listing issues with the world, but things I wish
To fulfill and fix, hence, my life has purpose.
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There is a big difference between WANT / NEED - one reflects desire and the other a requirement. It doesn’t
Matter if you live or die... these things will always exist.. In Sukhmani Sahib it says a man who is virtues
Dies and takes many births.. Because he keeps on believing that he is the one who will make the change.
Therefore he dies over and over again to constantly make an effort to change things... yet nothing is in his hand.
You have yet to discover your true purpose... but even that is in his hands and under his wishes.
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Your right in that Mother Teresa was an outstanding human being, but I don't see how the comparison to the others you've
Listed holds up. I feel as if your trying to compare apples to oranges, and because you prefer oranges, you feel they are
more of a role model and hold them to higher esteem. Bill Gates, Oprah, and Mother Teresa have accomplished deeds
far greater than most humans will ever. They did things in very different societies, sects, and different mechanisms of
helping, I don't think you can directly compare the two and say "oh, she is better". Your coming from a religious
background, so obviously it makes logical sense as to why you would hold Mother Teresa to higher value than the others.
I treat them equally and can not compare them, they bring different resources to the same goal.

Random tangent, but its like when people compare genocides and killings, as if one method of death or type of people is
Calculated to be worth more than another type. Who knows? I feel its fruitless to compare them.
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I didn’t compare them with apples and oranges.. .. lol

you missed my point... I was not saying she is better then the rest or the rest are better then her.. My point
was this that a simple old lady.. was able to gain as much wealth and power (probably far more power) by simply
Praying and helping. The two (prayer / seva) had such a powerful impact on her life that the energy within her
touched billions of people..

The other two gained financial power by selling either themselves or their product
and both of them are living life in luxury surrounded by maya.. both of them invested their life on their IMAGE..
their PRIDE.. and when their name comes to an end (product life cycle chart) people will dump them.. Hence their image
their pride will be trash...

But look at the difference.. Mother Teresa helped billions by simple prayer and seva... she did not invest her life
in HER IMAGE, or in HER PRIDE.. she invested her life in God... and what was the impact? she embedded herself
in the hearts and minds of people of all religion all over the world.....
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I don't understand this question lol. Why can't I just go to a homeless shelter and help feed the hungry, while NOT doing
simran? What does having to do simran or being religious have to do with it?
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When you help someone or do a good deed.. your body feels good and so does your heart .. ? true ?
Gurbani makes it clear about the 5 thieves within the body.. the king of those 5 thieves is EGO.

After you help someone, it is human nature for ego to kick in and say "yes "I" have done good, therefore "i" am
better " what Simran does is it eradicates this ego... by putting gods name forward...
It tells the mind "no it is not you that has done good, but it is waheguru that has given you the opportunity to serve
and help someone" ..... that is what creates a humble , loving and forgiving mind..

That is why Gurbani teaches that everything is god's will.. so that man does not let "ego" conquer his mind.

(want evidence? go ahead and do seva for a month without simran, and another month with simran, you will get
first hand evidence)
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Really? Depression is a brain exercise. If your close to your family, and your father dies, you get depressed. Religious or
not. You learn to live life without, religious or not. You learn to let go, but hold onto his memories and what he taught you,
religious or not.

I'm pretty positive religious people get depressed for very similar reasons as to non-religious people getting depressed,
and it depends a lot on personality. I hardly think the sole reason why religious people get depressed is because "they
can't reach god yet". What is the base behind this claim? I don't even see the comparison or how this relates to anything.
Are you implying Atheists are always depressed then because they don't even try to reach God? Or that religious people
don't get depressed when they can't put food on their tables, but donate 1/3rd of their check to the gurdwara? I don't see
your logic behind stating religious people only get depressed because they can't reach god.
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If your close to your family and your father dies and you have faith in god.. you dont get depressed.. you say "I am coming
too, just wait up" but if you dont have faith in god then well... everything is over.. cuz death for you means "the end"..
that will put you in a state of complete depression (depending on how much you loved your family member) because
you will never ever meet that loved one again... imagine the thought of not meeting your loved one after you die because
you dont believe in after life and the law of karma.. (gives me the chills just thinking about it)

I am not saying that a Atheists person is always depressed , but I am saying is that everything he is aiming for
will cause depression , because after death everything that he has done/ worked is OVER.. The END..
but a person who believes in GOD.. continues to live life after death .. hence the law of karma, and the soul / body theory,
and the theory of reincarnation... if a Atheist doesnt believe in any of that then what good are the things that he does
today? or tom? everything will end the day he dies..

A true Saint, Sikh, religious person of any relgion has a purpose to reach god (Gurbani as evidence). As I mentioned
before many relgious people are also agnostics... they are the ones who are worried about financial money or food on
their table..

Principals of Sikhi are very very logical. The Gurbani does not preach killing/ starving your body to give to the Gurudawara.
The Gurudawara itself gives to the poor so they dont starve .

People who dont have anything and still give to the GW are victems of agnostic relgious people who are misguiding them.
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When I broke my arm, was that the result of a mental condition? I swear, I fell of a motorcycle, and my arm was in pieces.
Or, what about when I had to get surgery and they had to shave hair from that area off, because hair was dead cells that
interfere greatly with the process? Should I have believed the "buddha with certificates" when he says a clean surgery has
statistics of being 99% safe as opposed to one with hair or multiple other mess in the way having a 10% greater chance
of complications arising. Or should I have believed the mighty Khalsa who claim its a test of faith and that I should not lose
any hair on my body at any given time?
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You missed the point...... again.. Internal wounds are far more dangerous then external. a broken arm, a leg that gets cut
off etc.. can all be fixed/ healed. but if you had a broken arm and your mind was weak.. that pain would be
10000times worse ... a child who gets a small cut on his finger .. screams as if his entire hand has been cut.. but a adult
who gets a small cut .. simply puts a bandaid and moves on...

The same is with a Sikh who has unshakeable faith in his Guru... He/she develops a very strong immune system (state of
mind is attached to god, therefore the body of the human being copies the pattern of god, (humans are copycats, a child
copies his parents and learns how to talk before even attending school))... but when someone or something attacks it
from the physical side... his mind accepts the pain as if it was love from God..
(Gurbani as proof: Tera Kiya Meetha Laage) and he continues to live in the same state of mind as he was before the
accident, therefore nothing changed.

Can a Atheist live like that? your arm gets cut off today, that is 25% of your body gone.
dont tell me you wont lose some mental balance when you lose a arm or a leg .. dont tell me you wont get depressed if
you know your only gonna be living a certain age and on top of that you have already lost a arm...


A person who truly believes in GOD (not talking about agnostic religious fools) ... the laws, rules, regulations of
mankind .. do not apply to him. Belief in God helps man stand out from the rest.. it helps him make impossible.. possible....

And about the surgery part.... Je tu Khalsa nu Mighty he nahin samajya te fir ki fark penda hai... lol if my body ever
got into that position where I would have a choice to remove kesh or die... I would have the kesh removed.. because
if I dont have a body to serve my Guru then what good is the kesh?

But I would like to add, there comes a time in a person's life where he is so absorbed in the love of God that he is
overflowing with faith ... he relies not on a dr. for help, but only and only on god. It is a personal experience which I can not explain to you in words.

That person falls into a state of mind where his Guru’s Hukam is far more important then death itself. That is the point where miracles happen… and science itself falls in disbelief…. While the rest of the world calls him a idiot.. and atheists use their logic to explain... the truth ends up getting buried under all….

The result.. a man walks out of his cancer bed healed.. a man with aids walks up and leaves and is healed.. etc..

It is a personal choice, that does not apply to everyone.. only to a few who have a strong personal relationship with god..

The rest of us are agnostics.. and try to imitate the experience.. which results in many mishaps because our faith in god is not strong.. weak mind = weak results
And people who watch us fail ….gather around and say “oh look god doesn’t exist, look at what happen the poor man who always prayed just died (while in reality the “poor man” always spent his time playing video games and indulging himself in maya and at the last moment he tried to act religious just to save his own ***)

Also keep in mind, that a person who has faith in god has a 2nd chance, compared to a Atheist, who only has his hopes on the dr... doesn’t a logical mind say that the more chances you have the better your odds of winning?
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"But what then" can also be asked to what you say is the answer as to "merge with god"...but what then? What is the
purpose after merging with him? Now you've attained nirvana, which to me, I would have attained after saving the world.
We're both in the same mind-state, and physically in the same state (probably dead, beneath the earth or burned), so
perhaps I attained a form of Nirvana that I could remember, and you achieved it after the fact...but what then? You say
sikhs purpose is never complete, he is constantly in the search. Never in humanity will everyone be 100% equal and
everything flourishing, problems will always exist. A secular humanisms purpose in life is never complete in the same
sense.
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According to the Gurbani, the circle of problems that you say will always exist, is pierced with the tool of Naam,
a Sikh is then able to live out of that circle within the light of God (Guru Gobind Singh Ji mentioned this when he stated he
was in the light of God and was then asked by God to enter earth). While the athiest, the agnostic, the Good, the Bad , the
confused.. etc.. all are subject to revolve in a secular humanisms purpose in life that is never complete, a Sikh is able to
walk out of the circle with the Guidance of his Guru. (By the word Sikh, I mean a Seaker of GOD, could be of any religion)

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There's one thing that I want to bring up here. Humanity goes in a one-way irreversible path. We can NOT go back to the
times where Khalsay ruled over Punjab, and the amount was enormous. It's a fact, a mono-culture is spreading
throughout the world, and it's a fact, any form of physical identity for differentiation is decreasing. You honestly believe the
Sikh identity has increased in the last 20 years? Not even, lets say the last 5 years? Day by day the clock ticks to our
eventual end. You may say "Quality" of the Khalsa increases, but thats a subjective term and not the case that we are
trying to discuss.

What makes you honestly believe that the Sikhs will be different from all the civilizations that came before us and are now
chapters in the history books? What makes you honestly believe that we will be any different? It's like the people who say
America will never go down. Nations rise and fall, civilizations rise and fall. Cultures rise and fall. We're falling. This is with
respect only to the sikh identity. Will other aspects of Sikhism survive, I'm sure they will, but we're discussing the identity.

I think it will degenerate over time because it already has. As time goes and generation gaps increase from the time the
atrocious massacres and history happened, there is less and less of a connection, this leads to degeneracy.

Because I don't want to break my mom's heart I keep my hair ----> Because my son doesn't want to break his
grandmother's heart he keeps his hair ----> Because my grandson doesn't want to break his great-grandmother's heart
he keeps his hair.

You see the trend? Eventually it will end. I have a direct relation with my mom, she effects me. Will I raise my children with
kesh? Of course, I think it's an amazing experience, but will I be sad if my kids lose it? As long they are making an
informed decision, and not following MTV.

Sahibzadey ---> People alive during their times ---> Years later people who recall seeing them ----> People who read their
story in books ---> People who draw the morals out and teach it to their kids ---> Kids who pick up another book and see
these same stories everywhere in other civilizations ---> Kids who are more inclined to be American than anything
remotely close to Punjabi so do not feel nearly as much of a connection to Sahibzadey, because they feel their struggle in
life is more relatable to MLK Jr (random example).

Over time, things change. The Diaspora expands, and kids will be more inclined to listen to stories which effect them.

What is the solution to this? Keep inter-marrying amongst Sikhs and raising your children and having them visit Punjab
every 3 months for education and to learn about Sikhism ?

As cultures expand, more and more inter-religious, inter-racial marriages and children occur. We can see and feel the
world around us, no one has a monopoly over our mind anymore. That is why the identity will continue to decrease.
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my turn to say... "stop pulling things out of the air". only cell phones and satellites can do that... lol

"Humanity goes in a one-way irreversible path" --- Majority of people go one way.. the leaders who are few in numbers are
the ones that have the power to reverse the path..


Your entire argument is basically about the identity of the Khalsa. The Philosophy and teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji ,
were true in the past... they are true today.. and will be true in the future.

I personally dont believe the 5ks for a Sikh are a requirement, contrary to what you may have been brought up with..

A Sikh is first who submits himself to his Guru.. HEAD on His hand (has already accepted death).

For a Soldier to wear the uniform of his senior officer is a Privilege
For a Warrior to be Given the Sword of his Master is a Privilege

The Turban, The Beard.. The 5ks ALL are a Privilege for a Sikh.
Given to a Sikh by His Guru

but the realization for that takes time...only a humble .. mature mind can understand this... a young amateur mind will
NOT.

Many parents are Hypocrites / Agnostics, many Religious leaders are Hypocrites/agnostics.. and they are all forcing the
youth to keep the 5ks without attaching them to simran and seva... WHY are they doing this? because they themselves
dont know where they are headed and are just doing it because even though they don’t have the knowledge.. they have
what is called blind faith... hope.. that although they are not able to give proper guidance.. maybe .. just maybe the Sikh
ROOP will force the children to seek and search for guidance by themselves...

That is the reason why the identity seems to look as if it is dieing.. because many are too lazy to look for guidance..
because many end up with false leaders who give false guidance...
because many would just rather fit in with the rest and “LIVE” their life
because many would just say they are Atheist in a attempt to not be bugged about god is this god is that.. :)

Its not easy for a young child to walk into a classroom with hundreds of eyes staring at him and asking him questions..
for which he himself has no answers .. because his parents have not given him any answers except "just do it"

But you know what this has really created? it has given birth to a new generation of Sikhs (not talking about those who
have cut their hair, or walked out and given up, I am talking about those who continue to fight and look for answers). This
new generation of Sikhs can be seen everywhere.. look over the internet.. how many sites have generated about Sikhism?
Do you really think the old giani ji at the GW created those sites from Punjab? One sikh is trying to help another … new generation.. saving itself…
look at all these forums all over.. look at all the participation discussion.. look at all the samagams... kirtans by youth taking
place... look at all the gatkas being played...look at the attempt of the new generation to revive its Khalsa..to spread the message of Guru Nanak… all this on foreign land .... These Sikhs are so firm in their roop and dharam
that they speak the western language, and have adopted the western culture to suite their needs.

I know you know that’s Sikh’s living in USA were forced to remove their turbans for checkup even after going through a metal detector... what happen? a Sikh organization interfered and was able to change that rule....
Western Culture.. Western Language... 2% of india....hardly 1% with turbans... changed the law for the leading nation in
the world... how? Because they stood by truth.. (france is up next)

You claim that your mind thinks logical, but do you not see the Logic here? Do you not see how such a small group is having such a powerful impact on the world today?

The point I have made here is this that numbers never made a difference... numbers are only illusions... The Emperors at the times of our Guru’s made the same assumption about Sikhi.. The Hindus during the 1984 riots made the same assumption about Sikhi.. time after time they were all proven wrong… history as evidence.. the Khalsa lost many men… many times over it took massive losses… but despite the odds.. it raised itself over and over again from the battlefield…

the Will in 1 man can inspire a NATION to change its thought. whether it is Hitler or Ghandi or MLK JR... it only takes 1 man to change the minds of
millions...

so dont tell me the Sikh Identity is going to die.. Dont tell me Guru Nanak's Philosophy is going to be in the books of history..

Dont pull stuff out of the air.. Niether I nor you can predict what is going to happen in the future...

But I do know one thing.. the Children of those Sikhs who have made a effort to discover their Sikhi on their on... will be far
more powerful then the Sikhs that striked fear in the hearts of muslim emperors who ruled over india. The New Generation of Sikhs will bring a new rise to the Khalsa.

There comes a point in life when man searches for the truth because he/she is sick of illusions of the corporate world.. sick of the lies.. tired of being false…
When the new generation of Sikhs understands the purpose of the Identity without being forced to keep it.. they will happily accept it… and at that time.. the rules of fashion will change. ;)

Don’t be so consumed with trends, statistics, and logic… have a open mind.. life is full of surprises and is completely unpredictable…
-=On the side note=-… they say at Harvard every year they have 2 groups that invest on stocks. One group performs studies and research on which stocks to purchase… the other throws darts and selects the stocks that the dart lands on..

The result is… sometimes Logic and Research wins.. and sometimes the dart wins..

I don’t know about you.. but to me it feels as if research and statistics can not be trusted 100%.. ;) therefore I will not place all my hopes on the Dr.. on Logic.. on research…
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Your drawing a comparison to something that is physical and "in this world" over something that no longer exists.
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What is really here? and what is not? obviously you have not seen a magic trick being played. What is reality? Reality itself has NOT been defined till this date by science.

a man who see's a child stealing a apple to eat--- for him reality is the child is a thief
a mother who see's a child stealing a apple to eat-- for her a child is trying to feed his stomach.


Your Reality is different from mines.. for you what does not exists.. I see everyday..
The Guru - Shiri Guru Granth Sahib... The GurSikhs, the Gurbani.. the kirtan.. the devotion.. the love...
I see it.. you dont.. why? because I believe.. you dont.(not yet) :)


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As per what I've said earlier, or maybe it was in a different thread -- I feel more liberated that I've accepted the fact that I
am an atheist. My lifestyle is far lighter now, and I can see the lies that the religious institutions feed the people.
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As I mentioned before.. in this age of Kalyug there are lies everywhere.. whether it is in a religious institute or in the
gathering of Atheists... That is why your Guru had everything put down in the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib....

Did you even make a attempt to read the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
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I never said your getting "knocked out" in the coming years. It's a sinking ship, no matter how much you try to deny the facts, the Khalsa is a sinking ship. They will cease to exist or be so disconnected from society. "Guru Nanak's Philosophy" on the other hand, will stay, like all the historical books before it. The Khalsa, even the morals will stay and adapt. The 5 K's and specifically the identity, will not.
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If the morals stay and adapt.. wont that lead to have the roop?
If you invest in something and it provides you with profits.. wont you invest more?
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as far “evidence and proof”, I can give you many from 1980 all the way to 2007.. over and over again...

I know you have gotten your facts from all sorts of sources, that I myself can also provide counter parts for.. we can have a never ending battle… J

You have gotten your understanding of this world from books written by men who have tried to understand how things work..

but....have you read the books from men who have admired the man who created the things which are all around you?

Have your read your Japji Sahib?
Have you read your Sukhmani Sahib?
Have you read your Shiri Guru Granth Sahib?
have you made a effort to go over them before declaring yourself a Atheist?
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Personally bro, I have been at the same state of mind as you are.. probably far worse then you can imagine.. so much lies.. so much misguidance.. and soo many ignorant fanatics ….
It really throws a normal person in depression…..
Don’t look for answers from religious scholars, every single one of them has a different answer … lol .. make a effort to understand the logic and love of Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji, by reading it and applying it to your daily life..

Despite what may be visible to the Eye… Sikhi, the Identity is not falling.. it’s routes are only getting stronger, firmer.

It is logic, a person with a better understanding makes a firmer decision. Once a child understands his Sikhi, he will make a firmer decision.. a choice that will be so firm that the coming “corporate world” will not be able to change.. but will have to accept the fact and make its rules around it…..

Don’t be disillusioned by numbers… it only takes one man with a firm will to change a entire nation.

----------------------------------------------------
Welcome to 2007. =)
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2007 is over.. Prepare yourself for 2008 ... its about time you make a sincere effort to read Your Guru's Bani before you come up with a conclusion about who you really are. ;)
 
Nov 16, 2007
137
103
I never said your getting "knocked out" in the coming years. It's a sinking ship, no matter how much you try to deny the facts, the Khalsa is a sinking ship. They will cease to exist or be so disconnected from society. "Guru Nanak's Philosophy" on the other hand, will stay, like all the historical books before it. The Khalsa, even the morals will stay and adapt. The 5 K's and specifically the identity, will not.

Welcome to 2007. =)

Sikhs population was never over 15% of united Punjab, not even during Khalsa raj. Out of population, Khalsa always has been very small in numbers. During Sikh kingdom, most of sikh sardars including Ranjit Singh were not practicising khalsa ( they were fond of alcohol and woman ). So yes, numbers are important, but not that much. Compare jews and muslims, and their contrubution to all walks of life (i.e. science, politics, arts). Jews are still most influential group on earth.
This 'Sinking Ship' has been heard for khalsa many times over the course of history.
1. Right after capture of Baba Banda Bahadur, sikhs almost disappeared in Punjab.
2. When Sikhs lost to British, panic struck sikh masses. Dalip Singh converted and shipped to England.
3. During early 20th century, christian missionaries pounded on Punjab. There were conversion to christianity from all walks of life. (There was big incident of 4 yound sikh boys from influental families in Amritsar converted to christianity). There was also a report that Maharaja of Kapurthala called a priest to know about christianity and how to embrace it.

But in the end khalsa came out strong and tested. Look at sikhs in India now. Even after a ****** struggle for Khalistan and being less than 2% of population, all the important posts are held by sikhs (prime minister, army chief, finance sec.).
Sikhs in west get used to luxurious life style of west. It is very hard to keep kesh, carry sword, tie turban. It looks outdated to some people.They want to go to pub, date girls, cut hair, look good. "Sinking ship" is nothing but wish in the back of the mind of these kind of western sikhs.
But khalsa is not going anywhere.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,655
Interesting thread! :yes:
You gotta love Zakir Naik's fans (Kay)... :}{}{}: and the very unskeptic minds here (Skeptik).
 

max314

SPNer
May 28, 2006
285
86
As long as one is in a hurry to identify themselves by a label of limitation, they are trapped. Like a hamster running inside a wheel, they believe they are making progress when in fact they are making none.

It is only when one realises that they are not a discrete, discernible 'this' or 'that' - but are instead a part of a great oneness that knows no boundaries, that knows no distinctions - that they can be truly free.

Remember: Only by asking the right questions can one find the right answers.
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
55
London, UK
Wow what a good thread, I have much to say on it but let me start here.

Max ji,

I am afraid my freind that you are slightly on the wrong track, yes indeed Ik ongar and all of that, however labels are what we use to enable understanding.

One can certianly apply many labels to oneself without fear of being trapped. Think of it in this way. Every single word you typed is a label which we all use in order to understand, I se nowt wrong in using words to describe who or what we are do you?
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
55
London, UK
Jaysangh ji,

I agree with you my freind. Nobody HAS to except the faith nor any of the belifes of their parents. If I did for example I would be a bigoted, atheist.

If you do not belive in God, the ten human Guru's nor Guru Granth Sahib, if you do not proscribe to the Sikh way of life then by all means you should not call yourself a Sikh.

I am fairly discouraged to see the amount of posts that (as you say) are nowt more than personal attack, although I do thank the modeaters for allowing them (freedom of speach and all that).

Ask as many questions as you like, there really is no such thing as asking too many.
 

max314

SPNer
May 28, 2006
285
86
Wow what a good thread, I have much to say on it but let me start here.

Max ji,

I am afraid my freind that you are slightly on the wrong track, yes indeed Ik ongar and all of that, however labels are what we use to enable understanding.

One can certianly apply many labels to oneself without fear of being trapped. Think of it in this way. Every single word you typed is a label which we all use in order to understand, I se nowt wrong in using words to describe who or what we are do you?

Hi there, Lee ji - thank you for commenting :D

There is nothing wrong with using labels as a mode of communication and as a method of description. Words - while limited - are how we convey thoughts and ideas to one another.

But the OP is asking, "Why am I a Sikh?" And his first line reads, "Why am I a sikh? Why should I be? What proof is there that I should believe? Do I just need to have faith?"

To me, this sounds like someone who is trying to understand their relationship with spirituality, and who has intertwined 'being spiritual' with 'belonging to a religion' and labelling oneself accordingly.

My post was merely aimed at suggesting to the OP that they did not have to affiliate themselves with a particular religion (i.e. did not have to label themselves) in order to find spiritual answers. Consequently, I also suggested that the OP's personal paradigm perhaps required some shifting so that they would start asking the right questions regarding their spiritual path, which would include not getting bogged down in calling oneself a 'Something-ist' or a 'Somethingelse-ist'.

Indeed, it was Guru Nanak who said, "Na koi Hindu, na koi Musalmaan." I strongly suspect he meant the same thing I do.

All the best, sir :)
 

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