Why Am I Sikh?

[Archived_Member1]

Atheism is one of the most liberating experiences existing to man, currently. Think about it, you lose all division with other humans, you walk around and you no longer see someone as hindu, sikh, muslim, black, white, asian. They just exist, they just are, if they are in need of help, you will help, not because of you wish to get in better grounds with an over-seer (which to me sounds a little selfish), but mainly because you do not wish your fellow human to suffer.

i don't think this is true for the majority of atheists... if it were, they wouldn't spend so much time trying to convince religious folks that we're wrong, we're stupid, we're screwing up the world, and all the other things atheists routinely accuse us of. the divisions still exist, it's just that as an atheist you feel superior to ALL religions, not just selected ones.

just my personal experience, of course.

 

[S|kH]

i don't think this is true for the majority of atheists... if it were, they wouldn't spend so much time trying to convince religious folks that we're wrong, we're stupid, we're screwing up the world, and all the other things atheists routinely accuse us of. the divisions still exist, it's just that as an atheist you feel superior to ALL religions, not just selected ones.

just my personal experience, of course.

In generalization, yes you are right. But, I've definitely been approached THOUSANDS of more times by a random christian knocking on my door to convert me, or a random Sardar at the gurdwara who would comment on my Pugh/Dhari or whisper comments about me to other Sikhs than have had a random atheist approach me and tell me that my religion was bs (because I look like I am a "Sikh").

Second, if your that deep into philosophy that your actively researching it on the internet and engaging in debate, you usually don't belong to the normal, and generalizations cease to exist.

I was giving jaysingh a new take on it. He's not a normal kid if he comes to an internet forum and types up his mind-state and has anonymous people comment on it. He's obviously done some research before and is making an informed decision. This isn't the story about a kid who cut his hair randomly to disobey his parents and follow MTV.

He realizes the value of the culture, identity, and everything. His mind-state is that of atheistic views.

BUT, I can make generalizations all day about Sikhs and/or religious people if you wish me to do so. I'm sure we can both cite numerous examples, but this is sikhphilosophy.net and we have to be smart enough to know the crowd we are writing too.

 

[wizesikh]

- S|kH

before I go ahead and provide references for the stuff i pulled out of the air lol....

I got a quick question for you, (never met a sikh atheist before so had to ask this question)


What is your purpose in life?


(go ahead answer that question while I start pulling out scientific evidence and facts, just for you )

 

[S|kH]

- S|kH

before I go ahead and provide references for the stuff i pulled out of the air lol....

I got a quick question for you, (never met a sikh atheist before so had to ask this question)


What is your purpose in life?


(go ahead answer that question while I start pulling out scientific evidence and facts, just for you )

lol @ sikh atheist. I guess, if that's what you wish to call me. I'm not really Sikh though.

What is my purpose in life? Liberate people's minds, change the world, help the poor, connect the wealthy nations with the starving nations in a newer vehicle. End the stupidity of television which controls the masses, mass media entertainment. Lots of purposes in life, all which are relevant to this life and this time period.

Yes, I have no goal or purpose in life that consists of merging with some infinite being to live forever or re-incarnate myself as some better being.

My purpose in life is to help humans, today.

I'm eagerly awaiting your scientific evidence

 

[Archived_Member1]

lol @ sikh atheist. I guess, if that's what you wish to call me. I'm not really Sikh though.

actually i'm curious too... why would an atheist keep sikh bana? do you get some benefit from keeping a turban and beard outside of being sikh? i'd like to learn more about this.

 

[S|kH]

Here's some of my evidence :

Atheist doctors more likely to care for the poor than religious ones | Press Esc

ATHEIST DOCTORS MORE LIKELY TO CARE FOR POOR THAN RELIGIOUS PHYSICIANS

Do Religious Physicians Disproportionately Care for the Underserved? -- Curlin et al. 5 (4): 353 -- Annals of Family Medicine
Do Religious Physicians Disproportionately Care for the Underserved?

CONCLUSIONS : Physicians who are more religious do not appear to disproportionately care for the underserved.

Isn't that one of the main things you guys big up on? "Be a doctor and help the poor, our religion teaches us to do it." Seems like ALL the HISTORY of religion, it hardly EVER effects them in actual practice.

RELIGION CORRELATES TO POVERTY AND POOR
ATHEISM TO WEALTH AND HIGHER LIVING STANDARDS

The Washington Monthly

outliers : United States (always the outlier for this type of data, and I can explain why if you wish to know) , Kuwait, and some others.

You see Africa as opposed to Western Europe, Eastern Europe?

Yet, you continue to say you have facts stating the EXACT opposite?

I'm intrigued to say the least.

 

[S|kH]

actually i'm curious too... why would an atheist keep sikh bana? do you get some benefit from keeping a turban and beard outside of being sikh? i'd like to learn more about this.

Hm, this is a very intricate and complex feature of me that is very hard to explain to someone who has not "grown up" with me.

Do I get a benefit from keeping a turban and beard outside of being a Sikh? I'd say so, when I walk around or walk into a room my presence demands respect or questioning because I look so different. I usually tend to wear baggy sweatpants around school, and a variety of shirts, and generally dress like I'm very poor. I usually just wear free t-shirts I picked up from some organization or event I attended (lol :wink. Personality-wise, I don't hold much relevance to image, and part of my personal campaign is to show America that regardless of image (A poor, urban-dressed, middle-eastern descent male) can still be intelligent and make it out.

I believe image and everything that we take it today is controlled by the mass media. I absolutely can NOT stand the mass media and television to be specific. This is my personal "renegade" against them, because I refuse to conform to what MTV says I should.

My family, although mostly being atheist holds the Sikh identity in high regards, because that is the way my parents were raised. We're a Team, so to say. We all fully realize that the identity will go away in 1-2 generations or be so spread out it will filter out due to natural selection, but we are the only ones that keep it. I grew up with NO other Sikhs, and only my brother who is 3 years older than me. It's just this team mentality, you can't turn your back on your team. I don't believe in the religion, and my parents know that. I wouldn't crush my mom's heart for something that I think is irrelevant feature to me that I don't mind and don't allow to hold me back in any way. By all means, my mom is not religious, but she is intelligent on sikhism and does keep her kesh, and was raised doing so.

Last, and probably the biggest reason, I'm still young, will I waiver and my philosophy change as time goes on? Most likely. I was a Sikh for a long period of time, and it taught me A LOT about life, and changed my outcome considerably. Me keeping an article of faith which is esteemed by Sikhs is a sign to show respect to the creators of a philosophy, which have led the foundation to let me explore and reach the ground I stand on now. It's an ode of respect.

Maybe there's a day I'll come back to the Sikh fold -- at that point, I don't want to be bald and never have the ability to grow out my hair (I'm already balding :hmm: lol)

And then there's a LOAD of other reasons which I will leave out for another time.

I'm a strange kid, that's all I can really say. I do things because I reach a conclusion either through experience or extensive knowledge and analytical reasoning that this is what I want to do. If knowledge and reasoning overcome the experience, maybe I will adapt to it. As reason and knowledge is the path to truth, which is above all.

The better question is ... why should I cut my hair? what would I gain?

 

[kds1980]

CONCLUSIONS : Physicians who are more religious do not appear to disproportionately care for the underserved.

i have a question .the religious doctors that were surveyed how much practising they are
You cannot define a person as religious in single sense.The level of how much a person
practise a religion is diffrent in people

RELIGION CORRELATES TO POVERTY AND POOR
ATHEISM TO WEALTH AND HIGHER LIVING STANDARDS

The Washington Monthly

outliers : United States (always the outlier for this type of data, and I can explain why if you wish to know) , Kuwait, and some others.

You see Africa as opposed to Western Europe, Eastern Europe?

It only proves that poor people are more religious and rich less and i agree with it.
poor people try to find their happiness in religion because they don't have money

As far as africa is concerned It is a third class example of showing that religious people are poor.Europeans are rich because of industrial revolution. and because of their colonial era

recentlly a noble prize winner came up with theory that black people are less in intellect because africans were unable to create any civilisation.I guess this theory is more sensible
do you agree with this?

also each day many surveys and scientific theories are published do you agree with all
of them.Just visit sites like stormfront and they will show many scientific studies that how whites are superior and blacks are fool.

 

[wizesikh]

lol @ sikh atheist. I guess, if that's what you wish to call me. I'm not really Sikh though.

What is my purpose in life? Liberate people's minds, change the world, help the poor, connect the wealthy nations with the starving nations in a newer vehicle. End the stupidity of television which controls the masses, mass media entertainment. Lots of purposes in life, all which are relevant to this life and this time period.

Yes, I have no goal or purpose in life that consists of merging with some infinite being to live forever or re-incarnate myself as some better being.

My purpose in life is to help humans, today.

I'm eagerly awaiting your scientific evidence

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by the way I didnt call you a Sikh Atheist, Your username is Sikh , and you said your beliefs are that of a Atheist ... so I just put 2 and 2 together


ok so here we go..

First of all, id like to congratulate you and let you know your not a athiest.. lol
You are a agnostic. Basically a person stuck on a bridge between "god is? .. god is not?"

secondly,


Thanks for answering my question, by the way you have great goals but none of them are "a purpose" you are just pointing out things that you believe need to be changed.

You can become a billionaire like opera, and help the poor (trust me she has helped a lot of people in Africa)

you can become like bill gates and donate money like crazy and help others...

but at the end they all say one thing... the world is still hungry... even with all our wealth combined people will still remain hungry...

now imagine how much brain power it takes to make so much money to help others?
its like winning the lotto... not many people have the financial power/ political power to get ahead and help others the way u are trying to do....

but then here comes a lil old lady, who just prays and helps.. prays and helps... (naam japna, seva karna) and guess what she gained popularity all over the world, (jaapji sahib as evidence : those who constantly dwell on the name of god gain infinite powers)

so basically just by praying, and helping she was able to accomplish much much more of what any of the rich guys , opera, bill gates did...

who was she? Mother Teresa... I know she is not Sikh .. lol but your sikhi is not limited to religion, it is more scientific then religion ever is, and far more logical then science itself will ever be.

Mother Teresa worked on the basic principals of your SIKHI, of Guru Nanak. Naam Japo, Seva Karo..

so now .. what are your chances of getting your bank account to have the exact same balance as opera/bill gates? Compared to your chances of getting up and going to a homeless shelter to help feed the hungry, while doing simran?

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Part 2... the saga continues...

Religious people do become depressed.. but there is a reason for their depression, the reason is this that they are trying to reach god and are unable to... that is why they become depressed.. Guru Nanak Dev Ji also became depressed and when a local dr. was trying to find the cause , Guru Nanak Dev Ji Replied and said "It is not the body that needs to be fixed, it is the soul"

Those words of Guru Nanak Dev Ji hold fact till this date... The illness in the body is always related to a mental condition. first your mind gets weak, then the body falls apart.

I know ... I know.. u want "scientific evidence", you would rather believe the buddha with certificates then the Giani who reads the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib...

here :

Diamond, E.L. (1982). The role of anger in essential hypertension and coronary heart disease. Psychological Bulletin, 92, 410-433. (review of the literature which concludes that anger and hostility play an important role in development of hypertension and coronary artery disease) (heart)

(5 chors.. remember, heart disease is realted to KRODH)

but ....

if a Athiest becomes depressed... what is the reason? money? power? greed? lust? attachment? ego?

is there any other reason besides those why, a atheist might become depressed?

Your Guru Nanak made another statement in Jaapji Sahib,
if you get heaven, and if u live forever... what then? what is ur purpose?

Simpler terms;
lets say in a war game, (C&C Tiberium wars) lets say one team needs to defeat the other, your team creates so many tanks, so much man power that you can take over the enemy base with one click....

what then? only purpose you have left is .. Click or No Click ... what happens after that?
after you defeat everything.. what then?

you can save the world from hunger, you can do exactly and everything that you have stated as your purpose.. but what then?

you will still need to be loved, that is where Guru Nanak says... I have my god.. I am married to him.. A Sikh's purpose is to meet with his God, and God himself can never be reached as defined by Japji Sahib, therefore a Sikh's purpose in life is never complete.. he is constantly in search.... This entire play of hide and seek is described in Japji sahib .. as the hindu gods/ goddess search for god all over the universe and yet they do not find him...

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You mentioned you keep your kesh because of your family.. your a team. They are not your only team members... so are we.

You also mentioned that the identity will go away in 1-2 generations.... Why underestimate your Guru? your Khalsa?

You keep your Kesh because you cant stand to break the heart of your mother... just so her heart doesnt break you will keep your kesh all your life.....

then ..

what makes you think a Sikh will let his Identity die because of modern times? a Identity of his Guru, a Identity for which the Saadh Sangat gave their lives? a Identity for which 2 young children were bricked alive......

so much blood, so much sacrifice has been given to keep the Sikh faith alive... what makes you think that we will allow it to degenerate over time?


If you cant stand to see your mother’s heart break.. do you think a Sikh will stand to see his Guru’s Sacrifices go to waste?

The blood in my veins has a natural tendency to burst out......
This Khalsa is not as small and weak as you might picture it...

Do not compare your Guru Nanak with the bible, or with the quran, or even the Bhagvat Gita.... Sikhi is Science and Logic at its core.... read some Sakhis of your Guru.. He went against the hindus beliefs of pouring water towards the sun, and the Christians belief of putting all the animals in one boat...

Guru Nanak traveled all over just to correct religious saints, scholars , etc.. with logic and pure evidence.
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Final words…….

I still cant believe you said I was pulling stuff from air.. ? lol .. if voice can travel in mid air and reach a cell phone... if satellites can send HD quality picture to your home in mid air... why cant I pull knowledge from air?

Its true what they say in the GURBANI... when the Guru speaks to you ... you just cant tell anyone.. cuz people demand evidence... its like putting a ladoo in the mouth of a man who cant speak... and so people ask "how does it taste?"..
.....

Here is your scientific evidence about why belief is in god is healthy... but before you check them out.. I just wanted to say.. dont limit your thoughts with just science, add some faith to your life style, you will feel much lighter…

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Dalal, A.K., & Pande, N. (1988). Psychological recovery of accident victims with temporary and permanent disability. International Journal of Psychology, 23, 25-40. (prospective cohort study of convenience sample of 41 patients experiencing major injuries within the previous week and hospitalized in government hospitals and private nursing homes in India (ages 16-42, 38/41 male, 48% auto accidents, most from lower middle-class Hindu families, 21/41 permanently disabled; when patient's asked which of 7 factors were most essential to recovery, more than half of both permanently and temporarily disabled patients at both times indicated God's will); causal attributions for accident to Karma and God's will were the factors most strongly related to actual psychological recovery (.37, p<.10, and .24, p=ns, for overall sample), especially at Time 1 for permanently disabled (.43 and .48, both p<.10)
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Desmond, D.P., & Maddux, J.F. (1981). Religious programs and careers of chronic heroin users. American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse, 8, 71-83. (prospective cohort study of religious program participation among 248 San Antonio addicts (87% Hispanic, mean age 26, average years of opioid use 8, 95% heroin); over a 12-year period, only 11% entered religious programs (small number); among those entering religious programs, 45% were followed by a year or more of abstinence, which markedly exceeds that from conventional treatment or correctional interventions (2-18%))
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DeVellis, B.M., DeVellis, R.F., & Spilsbury, J.C. (1988). Parental actions when children are sick: the role of belief in divine influence. Basic and Applied Social Psychology, 9, 185-196. (convenience sample of 72 parents with children ages 4-9 and no experience with an asthmatic child, who were chosen by church leaders (Unitarian, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Lutheran, Episcopalian); given six hypothetical vignettes about illness in their children; examined belief in divine influence and parents' spiritual action in response to illness; concluded that the actions parents endorse in the face of their child's illness may be influenced by beliefs about who or what controls health, in particular beliefs in divine influence may play an important role)
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Diespecker, D.D. (1973). Some characteristics of attempted suicide. Medical Journal of Australia 2, 121-125. (84 records of suicide attempts over 12 month period in New South Wales around 1970; compared proportion of religious affiliations with 1966 general census; found that Catholics (n=18) less likely (p<.05), and those with no affiliation (n=5) significantly more likely than might be expected (p<.01); low N, very weak study)
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And there you have it.. your certified buddhas who have done their research....
if you need more evidence.. let me know.. ill pull out 100s more... I just didnt want to fill this forum up with all of them lol


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

and No Guru Nanak's Philosophy, and his Khalsa is not getting knocked out in the coming years.. we are here to stay till the end.

Raj Kare Ga Khalsa

 

[S|kH]

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by the way I didnt call you a Sikh Atheist, Your username is Sikh , and you said your beliefs are that of a Atheist ... so I just put 2 and 2 together

First and foremost, I want to say thanks for your brilliant post. It is definitely well put together and engages in intellectual discussion rather than emotional flaring. I'd love to see more users post as coherently and stay on topic as you do.

And, time to discuss the points you brought up :

ok so here we go..

First of all, id like to congratulate you and let you know your not a athiest.. lol
You are a agnostic. Basically a person stuck on a bridge between "god is? .. god is not?"

Hehe, I am aware of what an agnostic is. Of course I am agnostic, I think most of the world is, even the people who claim to be religious or part of a religion. Everyone is agnostic to some extent. I claim to be an atheist because on a discussion forum, agnostic is a "soft term". It usually implies one does not know the answer, nor wishes to find the answer, is just too lazy. That's how we always used it growing up. Hence, why I usually take the term of Atheist on.

secondly,


Thanks for answering my question, by the way you have great goals but none of them are "a purpose" you are just pointing out things that you believe need to be changed.

Isn't that what a purpose in life is? I'm not pointing out things that need to be changed, I'm pointing out things I WANT to change in my life-time. That is my purpose of life, it is to change these things which effect humanity drastically in the present. Perhaps, I don't fully understand your question, but I was not simply listing issues with the world, but things I wish to fulfill and fix, hence, my life has purpose.

You can become a billionaire like opera, and help the poor (trust me she has helped a lot of people in Africa)

you can become like bill gates and donate money like crazy and help others...

but at the end they all say one thing... the world is still hungry... even with all our wealth combined people will still remain hungry...

now imagine how much brain power it takes to make so much money to help others?
its like winning the lotto... not many people have the financial power/ political power to get ahead and help others the way u are trying to do....

but then here comes a lil old lady, who just prays and helps.. prays and helps... (naam japna, seva karna) and guess what she gained popularity all over the world, (jaapji sahib as evidence : those who constantly dwell on the name of god gain infinite powers)

so basically just by praying, and helping she was able to accomplish much much more of what any of the rich guys , opera, bill gates did...

who was she? Mother Teresa... I know she is not Sikh .. lol but your sikhi is not limited to religion, it is more scientific then religion ever is, and far more logical then science itself will ever be.

Mother Teresa worked on the basic principals of your SIKHI, of Guru Nanak. Naam Japo, Seva Karo..

Your right in that Mother Teresa was an outstanding human being, but I don't see how the comparison to the others you've listed holds up. I feel as if your trying to compare apples to oranges, and because you prefer oranges, you feel they are more of a role model and hold them to higher esteem. Bill Gates, Oprah, and Mother Teresa have accomplished deeds far greater than most humans will ever. They did things in very different societies, sects, and different mechanisms of helping, I don't think you can directly compare the two and say "oh, she is better". Your coming from a religious background, so obviously it makes logical sense as to why you would hold Mother Teresa to higher value than the others. I treat them equally and can not compare them, they bring different resources to the same goal.

Random tangent, but its like when people compare genocides and killings, as if one method of death or type of people is calculated to be worth more than another type. Who knows? I feel its fruitless to compare them.

so now .. what are your chances of getting your bank account to have the exact same balance as opera/bill gates? Compared to your chances of getting up and going to a homeless shelter to help feed the hungry, while doing simran?

I don't understand this question lol. Why can't I just go to a homeless shelter and help feed the hungry, while NOT doing simran? What does having to do simran or being religious have to do with it?

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Part 2... the saga continues...

Religious people do become depressed.. but there is a reason for their depression, the reason is this that they are trying to reach god and are unable to... that is why they become depressed.. Guru Nanak Dev Ji also became depressed and when a local dr. was trying to find the cause , Guru Nanak Dev Ji Replied and said "It is not the body that needs to be fixed, it is the soul"

Really? Depression is a brain exercise. If your close to your family, and your father dies, you get depressed. Religious or not. You learn to live life without, religious or not. You learn to let go, but hold onto his memories and what he taught you, religious or not.

I'm pretty positive religious people get depressed for very similar reasons as to non-religious people getting depressed, and it depends a lot on personality. I hardly think the sole reason why religious people get depressed is because "they can't reach god yet". What is the base behind this claim? I don't even see the comparison or how this relates to anything. Are you implying Atheists are always depressed then because they don't even try to reach God? Or that religious people don't get depressed when they can't put food on their tables, but donate 1/3rd of their check to the gurdwara? I don't see your logic behind stating religious people only get depressed because they can't reach god.

Those words of Guru Nanak Dev Ji hold fact till this date... The illness in the body is always related to a mental condition. first your mind gets weak, then the body falls apart.

I know ... I know.. u want "scientific evidence", you would rather believe the buddha with certificates then the Giani who reads the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib...

When I broke my arm, was that the result of a mental condition? I swear, I fell of a motorcycle, and my arm was in pieces. Or, what about when I had to get surgery and they had to shave hair from that area off, because hair was dead cells that interfere greatly with the process? Should I have believed the "buddha with certificates" when he says a clean surgery has statistics of being 99% safe as opposed to one with hair or multiple other mess in the way having a 10% greater chance of complications arising. Or should I have believed the mighty Khalsa who claim its a test of faith and that I should not lose any hair on my body at any given time?

here :

Diamond, E.L. (1982). The role of anger in essential hypertension and coronary heart disease. Psychological Bulletin, 92, 410-433. (review of the literature which concludes that anger and hostility play an important role in development of hypertension and coronary artery disease) (heart)

(5 chors.. remember, heart disease is realted to KRODH)

but ....

if a Athiest becomes depressed... what is the reason? money? power? greed? lust? attachment? ego?

is there any other reason besides those why, a atheist might become depressed?

Are we that shallow that we assume Atheism = Sinful in every facet of life? Depression happens for many reasons. I was depressed for a long time when I couldn't reach mental clarity in thought, and kept finding and finding lies about religion from the institutions. I was depressed for a long time because I so deeply wanted to be a believer because I was conditioned into thinking believing was good, and being an atheist was everything you listed above. I wondered for years why when other people list revelations of God, and I go through that same experience, how come my brain automatically analyzes the event logically and rationally, and over-thinks it, rather than just "accept" and say its "faith". I used to hate it, I hated questioning and I wanted to just believe. Once I accepted it, this is how it works, this is how I see it, there is No god watching over me, there is no Guru's kirpa. **** happens, you deal with it, I became happier. Does that have anything to do with lust, greed, ego, attachment or the aforementioned sole reasons why atheists get depressed? And you can not claim I was a religious person back then either, I was in the same mind-state I am in now, only difference is now I've grown up and accepted that this is the way life is. You may call it ego, that I feel I am smart and can logically come to conclusions others deem miracles. And I'd say the religious one gets depressed for not being able to connect with God is a form of extreme attachment, the fact you can't have something or a connection with, is an excessive attachment. Or is god permissible for the above and other things are not? If so, who creates the rules in which god is permissible for attachment and lusting after, but other things aren't ?

Your Guru Nanak made another statement in Jaapji Sahib,
if you get heaven, and if u live forever... what then? what is ur purpose?

Simpler terms;
lets say in a war game, (C&C Tiberium wars) lets say one team needs to defeat the other, your team creates so many tanks, so much man power that you can take over the enemy base with one click....

what then? only purpose you have left is .. Click or No Click ... what happens after that?
after you defeat everything.. what then?

you can save the world from hunger, you can do exactly and everything that you have stated as your purpose.. but what then?

you will still need to be loved, that is where Guru Nanak says... I have my god.. I am married to him.. A Sikh's purpose is to meet with his God, and God himself can never be reached as defined by Japji Sahib, therefore a Sikh's purpose in life is never complete.. he is constantly in search.... This entire play of hide and seek is described in Japji sahib .. as the hindu gods/ goddess search for god all over the universe and yet they do not find him...

"But what then" can also be asked to what you say is the answer as to "merge with god"...but what then? What is the purpose after merging with him? Now you've attained nirvana, which to me, I would have attained after saving the world. We're both in the same mind-state, and physically in the same state (probably dead, beneath the earth or burned), so perhaps I attained a form of Nirvana that I could remember, and you achieved it after the fact...but what then? You say sikhs purpose is never complete, he is constantly in the search. Never in humanity will everyone be 100% equal and everything flourishing, problems will always exist. A secular humanisms purpose in life is never complete in the same sense.

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You mentioned you keep your kesh because of your family.. your a team. They are not your only team members... so are we.

You also mentioned that the identity will go away in 1-2 generations.... Why underestimate your Guru? your Khalsa?

You keep your Kesh because you cant stand to break the heart of your mother... just so her heart doesnt break you will keep your kesh all your life.....

There's one thing that I want to bring up here. Humanity goes in a one-way irreversible path. We can NOT go back to the times where Khalsay ruled over Punjab, and the amount was enormous. It's a fact, a mono-culture is spreading throughout the world, and it's a fact, any form of physical identity for differentiation is decreasing. You honestly believe the Sikh identity has increased in the last 20 years? Not even, lets say the last 5 years? Day by day the clock ticks to our eventual end. You may say "Quality" of the Khalsa increases, but thats a subjective term and not the case that we are trying to discuss.

What makes you honestly believe that the Sikhs will be different from all the civilizations that came before us and are now chapters in the history books? What makes you honestly believe that we will be any different? It's like the people who say America will never go down. Nations rise and fall, civilizations rise and fall. Cultures rise and fall. We're falling. This is with respect only to the sikh identity. Will other aspects of Sikhism survive, I'm sure they will, but we're discussing the identity.

then ..

what makes you think a Sikh will let his Identity die because of modern times? a Identity of his Guru, a Identity for which the Saadh Sangat gave their lives? a Identity for which 2 young children were bricked alive......

so much blood, so much sacrifice has been given to keep the Sikh faith alive... what makes you think that we will allow it to degenerate over time?

I think it will degenerate over time because it already has. As time goes and generation gaps increase from the time the atrocious massacres and history happened, there is less and less of a connection, this leads to degeneracy.

Because I don't want to break my mom's heart I keep my hair ----> Because my son doesn't want to break his grandmother's heart he keeps his hair ----> Because my grandson doesn't want to break his great-grandmother's heart he keeps his hair.

You see the trend? Eventually it will end. I have a direct relation with my mom, she effects me. Will I raise my children with kesh? Of course, I think it's an amazing experience, but will I be sad if my kids lose it? As long they are making an informed decision, and not following MTV.

Sahibzadey ---> People alive during their times ---> Years later people who recall seeing them ----> People who read their story in books ---> People who draw the morals out and teach it to their kids ---> Kids who pick up another book and see these same stories everywhere in other civilizations ---> Kids who are more inclined to be American than anything remotely close to Punjabi so do not feel nearly as much of a connection to Sahibzadey, because they feel their struggle in life is more relatable to MLK Jr (random example).

Over time, things change. The Diaspora expands, and kids will be more inclined to listen to stories which effect them.

What is the solution to this? Keep inter-marrying amongst Sikhs and raising your children and having them visit Punjab every 3 months for education and to learn about Sikhism ?

As cultures expand, more and more inter-religious, inter-racial marriages and children occur. We can see and feel the world around us, no one has a monopoly over our mind anymore. That is why the identity will continue to decrease.

If you cant stand to see your mother’s heart break.. do you think a Sikh will stand to see his Guru’s Sacrifices go to waste?

The blood in my veins has a natural tendency to burst out......
This Khalsa is not as small and weak as you might picture it...

Do not compare your Guru Nanak with the bible, or with the quran, or even the Bhagvat Gita.... Sikhi is Science and Logic at its core.... read some Sakhis of your Guru.. He went against the hindus beliefs of pouring water towards the sun, and the Christians belief of putting all the animals in one boat...

Guru Nanak traveled all over just to correct religious saints, scholars , etc.. with logic and pure evidence.

Your drawing a comparison to something that is physical and "in this world" over something that no longer exists.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final words…….

I still cant believe you said I was pulling stuff from air.. ? lol .. if voice can travel in mid air and reach a cell phone... if satellites can send HD quality picture to your home in mid air... why cant I pull knowledge from air?

Its true what they say in the GURBANI... when the Guru speaks to you ... you just cant tell anyone.. cuz people demand evidence... its like putting a ladoo in the mouth of a man who cant speak... and so people ask "how does it taste?"..
.....

Here is your scientific evidence about why belief is in god is healthy... but before you check them out.. I just wanted to say.. dont limit your thoughts with just science, add some faith to your life style, you will feel much lighter…

I don't see the comparison with technology helping people communicate to your ability to pull random knowledge through the air lol.

As per what I've said earlier, or maybe it was in a different thread -- I feel more liberated that I've accepted the fact that I am an atheist. My lifestyle is far lighter now, and I can see the lies that the religious institutions feed the people.

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Dalal, A.K., & Pande, N. (1988). Psychological recovery of accident victims with temporary and permanent disability. International Journal of Psychology, 23, 25-40. (prospective cohort study of convenience sample of 41 patients experiencing major injuries within the previous week and hospitalized in government hospitals and private nursing homes in India (ages 16-42, 38/41 male, 48% auto accidents, most from lower middle-class Hindu families, 21/41 permanently disabled; when patient's asked which of 7 factors were most essential to recovery, more than half of both permanently and temporarily disabled patients at both times indicated God's will); causal attributions for accident to Karma and God's will were the factors most strongly related to actual psychological recovery (.37, p<.10, and .24, p=ns, for overall sample), especially at Time 1 for permanently disabled (.43 and .48, both p<.10)

Honestly, thanks for the source, but compare this to the one I listed. That one is actually statistical, and not "they said God helped them". The article about the doctor study was done by examining how often doctors go to religious services and recite the words, and how often they would help an underserved person who came to them.

Your source is people who got in an accident and got better, and said God did it. And better yet, its from the land of religious mythologies still flourish -- INDIA.

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Desmond, D.P., & Maddux, J.F. (1981). Religious programs and careers of chronic heroin users. American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse, 8, 71-83. (prospective cohort study of religious program participation among 248 San Antonio addicts (87% Hispanic, mean age 26, average years of opioid use 8, 95% heroin); over a 12-year period, only 11% entered religious programs (small number); among those entering religious programs, 45% were followed by a year or more of abstinence, which markedly exceeds that from conventional treatment or correctional interventions (2-18%))

Yes, I know of these type of studies, and agree. Religious programs are renowned for helping the drug users kick the habit. I don't know what this proves in context to our topic, or how this promotes belief in god is good?

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DeVellis, B.M., DeVellis, R.F., & Spilsbury, J.C. (1988). Parental actions when children are sick: the role of belief in divine influence. Basic and Applied Social Psychology, 9, 185-196. (convenience sample of 72 parents with children ages 4-9 and no experience with an asthmatic child, who were chosen by church leaders (Unitarian, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Lutheran, Episcopalian); given six hypothetical vignettes about illness in their children; examined belief in divine influence and parents' spiritual action in response to illness; concluded that the actions parents endorse in the face of their child's illness may be influenced by beliefs about who or what controls health, in particular beliefs in divine influence may play an important role)

Let's get out of the 80s and do some similar studies that happened in the late 90s, and this millenia. Ever read the one that says people who pray heal quicker in the hospital? Well, some scientists proved why. The brain excretes chemicals which relaxes the body and mind, and humans are conditioned from birth that the vehicle to release these chemicals are from thoughts of god. These theories were debunked when soothing music or someones favorite show was introduced and put the patient in the same relaxing state. Or when they were just injected, and the brain released the chemicals. I'll find the sources for you though.

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Diespecker, D.D. (1973). Some characteristics of attempted suicide. Medical Journal of Australia 2, 121-125. (84 records of suicide attempts over 12 month period in New South Wales around 1970; compared proportion of religious affiliations with 1966 general census; found that Catholics (n=18) less likely (p<.05), and those with no affiliation (n=5) significantly more likely than might be expected (p<.01); low N, very weak study)

Makes logical sense doesn't it? Catholics believe suicide is a sin. Anyone who commits suicide or thinks about it for a day before doing it, has obviously crossed the path where they no longer identify themselves as a believer. And your quoting a source which sampled 18 catholics and 5 non-believers lol.

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And there you have it.. your certified buddhas who have done their research....
if you need more evidence.. let me know.. ill pull out 100s more... I just didnt want to fill this forum up with all of them lol


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

and No Guru Nanak's Philosophy, and his Khalsa is not getting knocked out in the coming years.. we are here to stay till the end.

Raj Kare Ga Khalsa

I never said your getting "knocked out" in the coming years. It's a sinking ship, no matter how much you try to deny the facts, the Khalsa is a sinking ship. They will cease to exist or be so disconnected from society. "Guru Nanak's Philosophy" on the other hand, will stay, like all the historical books before it. The Khalsa, even the morals will stay and adapt. The 5 K's and specifically the identity, will not.

Welcome to 2007. =)

 

[kds1980]

I never said your getting "knocked out" in the coming years. It's a sinking ship, no matter how much you try to deny the facts, the Khalsa is a sinking ship. They will cease to exist or be so disconnected from society. "Guru Nanak's Philosophy" on the other hand, will stay, like all the historical books before it. The Khalsa, even the morals will stay and adapt. The 5 K's and specifically the identity, will not.

I agree with it its very difficuilt for khalsa identity to survive.but i think it will survive but the fact is that may be around 5% of people will keep it.The sites like sikhsangat is good example of this.Many people of that sites are children of immigrants who settled in U.k,usa, or canada earlier.These people were not much religious and discarded their identity But now their children are coming back to sikhism and even becoming more orthodox and even faNatic.Several times on sikhsangat i read personal accounts of people that how they were clean shaven and had great worldly life but suddenly they came into sikhism ,took amrit and left everything.

 

[wizesikh]

S|kH --- before I continue...

its time for another question.

What do you believe happens when you die?

 

[Archived_Member_19]

kelly ji you asked Sikh the benefits of keeping bana while being atheist. i wanted to turn around the qn to you what is the benefit of bana while being a sikh?

 

[Archived_Member1]

kelly ji you asked Sikh the benefits of keeping bana while being atheist. i wanted to turn around the qn to you what is the benefit of bana while being a sikh?

well, i could make up all sorts of things about the hair being an electromagnetic coil or something...

but honestly, i do it because it's my Guru's Hukam. and i chose this faith because i trust my Guru.

 

[Astroboy]

That's a nice way of putting it, Kelly Ji.

 

[wizesikh]

I agree. so much easier of a answer. puri di puri gul guru te pa diyeo lol

 

[S|kH]

S|kH --- before I continue...

its time for another question.

What do you believe happens when you die?

Mentally - the same thing that happened pre-birth(conception). Nothingness. Or in other words, there is no possible way for me to find out except to die, so why worry about it?

Physically - My body will go into the soil and provide nourishment to animals and Earth.

I don't understand how people jump to the conclusion that "there is No God -- My life has no meaning!"

"The two main hurdles of humanity are slow-pain and boredom" --> I have a feeling this is why "God" was created in our minds.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

so obeying your Guru's will = obeying God's will?

 

[Archived_Member1]

so obeying your Guru's will = obeying God's will?

ਗੁਰ ਮਹਿ ਆਪੁ ਰਖਿਆ ਕਰਤਾਰੇ ॥
Gur meh āp rakẖi&shy;ā karṯārė.
The Creator Lord has enshrined Himself within the Guru.
SSGS p.1024


ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ॥
Gur pūrā pā&shy;ī&shy;ai vadbẖāgī.
The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune.

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥
Gur kī sėvā ḏūkẖ na lāgī.
Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone.
ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
Gur kā sabaḏ na mėtai ko&shy;ė.
No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥
Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9||
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

SGGS p. 864


so yes, since Guru IS God, Guru's will is God's will.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Guru is God or God is Guru ?