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When was Jup banee written?

Mike20222022

SPNer
Apr 12, 2022
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I searched and searched and found different answers:
- some claim it was written when Guru Nanak appeared after three days in the river and God uttered these words to him.
- osho claims that this was Guru Nanak’s first bani
- others claims it was Guru Nanak’s last bani
- it was written over his life at various times and places and then he compiled it together when settling in Kartarpur.
- Bhai Lehna ji compiled it from Guru Nanak’s bani, added his Shalok at the end and guru Nanak approved it.

So, what is the correct answer and proof?
Thx
 

Harichan1771

SPNer
Jun 3, 2022
8
2
25
I searched and searched and found different answers:
- some claim it was written when Guru Nanak appeared after three days in the river and God uttered these words to him.
- osho claims that this was Guru Nanak’s first bani
- others claims it was Guru Nanak’s last bani
- it was written over his life at various times and places and then he compiled it together when settling in Kartarpur.
- Bhai Lehna ji compiled it from Guru Nanak’s bani, added his Shalok at the end and guru Nanak approved it.

So, what is the correct answer and proof?
Thx
I don't want to sound rude, but what will you gain after learning behind the history of this bani. Will anything change based on 400+ years old events which are difficult to prove when each claim is backed by some proofs.
I feel that there are many things which are debatable in sikhism which can continue endlessly but one thing is for sure that bani is true.
Thank you!
 

Ishna

Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,261
5,192
It's a great question - I hope someone with knowledge replies.

My understanding is that Guru Nanak wrote Japji last, because it's a summary of his teaching that he spent a lifetime refining. But I have no evidence for it. I'm just repeating what I heard, and it makes sense to me.

I think there's value in asking questions like this because it can help understand the Gurbani.
 

Mike20222022

SPNer
Apr 12, 2022
9
1
78
I don't want to sound rude, but what will you gain after learning behind the history of this bani. Will anything change based on 400+ years old events which are difficult to prove when each claim is backed by some proofs.
I feel that there are many things which are debatable in sikhism which can continue endlessly but one thing is for sure that bani is true.
Thank you!
what’s your issue with asking this basic question? If we can’t answer a basic question about our most important bani, what would give confidence about rest of GGS?
What if someone claimed that Guru Nanak never existed and gave some proof, would you ignore to debate it because it is 400 years old?

And your only response is “Bani is true”. What does that even mean? Today is Saturday and it is true. Is that what you mean?
 
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Harichan1771

SPNer
Jun 3, 2022
8
2
25
what’s your issue with asking this basic question? If we can’t answer a basic question about our most important bani, what would give confidence about rest of GGS?
What if someone claimed that Guru Nanak never existed and gave some proof, would you ignore to debate it because it is 400 years old?

And your only response is “Bani is true”. What does that even mean? Today is Saturday and it is true. Is that what you mean?
Debating on events which were not recorded accurately will cause fuss among our people which will be quite useless. One can follow any explanation which satisfies themselves but these things will never be able to resolve. One must rely on thier common sense. Santokh singh and likes of him have already taken the opportunity tu be a disgrace to our gurus and SGGS by providing manmat stories about our history. What more damage do we expect by questioning historical "facts" which are difficult to prove!!
 

P J Singh

SPNer
Oct 7, 2022
26
2
In my humble view, asking questions is a best way to learn and grow whether it is in the Gurbani context or in any other context. Right from the outset (from very young age) Guru Nanak Sahib challenged the prevailing rituals and practices by asking questions and other Gurus and Bhagats did the same - asked questions. So I do not believe there is any harm in the question that has been asked by "Mike" in the thread, and for that matter in any question one may chose to ask. However, before we engage in debate on such questions ( like Mike's ) one needs to see how does the question (and its answer) adds value to our social, cultural, intellectual, and emotional growth. Historical facts are often difficult to verify for various reasons but some ask these questions with genuine interest and others with some hidden agenda just to stir the waters. This is just one question, there are hundreds of such historical questions, it is up to us to judge how do these questions add value to what we are trying to achieve in relation to the time and energy we spend in seeking "correct answer and proof". If I read a nice poem that touches my heart, my soul and inspires me then the poem is more important to me than the struggle to find out who the "unknown" author is and when it was written.
 
Mar 9, 2018
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According to Bhai gurdas Guru Nanak had a debate with the sidhs in the last year of his life. Karminder Singh states that both sidh gosht and Japji were both completed within the last year of his life since puree 28 & 29 of Japji Sahib are a summary of sidh gosht
 

P J Singh

SPNer
Oct 7, 2022
26
2
According to Bhai gurdas Guru Nanak had a debate with the sidhs in the last year of his life. Karminder Singh states that both sidh gosht and Japji were both completed within the last year of his life since puree 28 & 29 of Japji Sahib are a summary of sidh gosht
This is a very interesting observation. I have listened to some of Dr. Karminder Singh's presentations; they are indeed very thoughtful and insightful, and often presented with more like mathematical precision in the sense of logical reasoning. I would appreciate if you can share his reasoning in saying purees 28 and 29 are a summary of Sidh ghost. I do not beleieve purees 28 and 29 to be a summary of Sidh Ghost; to me it appears that Sidh Ghost is an ELABORATION of purees 28 and 29 ( not the converse as you note).

My reasoning is as follows:

To start with, I am of the opinion that we must probe any academic inquiry of SGGS that is presented to us through so called blogs and scientific papers with some critical and thoughtful oversight. Although the study of SGGS with an academic lens is a preferred mode of inquiry but caution must be exercised since the the spiritual discourse in SGGS is not laid out in an academic format; rather it is presented to us as an astounding master piece of artistic expression through poetry in raags. Yes, there are other spiritual writings across the globe that are also written in poetic forms but I do not know if any of those are written in raags with specific musical scales ( Ghar) as in Gurbani. Those who are familiar with music will attest to the fact that singing in raags is relatively easy compared to composing something in raags as is done in Gurbani.

The presence of this artistic expression in Gurbani places another layer through which any academic inquiry must tread through, which is often missing. When an accomplished painter or poet is expressing something through his painting or poetry, he tries to project his feelings, emotions, thoughts and insights into his painting or poetry. He tries his best to give an objective form to his subjective feelings, ideas and thoughts. It is inconceivable that an accomplished painter will paint half of his painting and then go and work on another painting and then later come back to finish off the rest of the first painting. Artist expressions are often spontaneous and always continuous not disjointed -- it is not the same with academic research and writings, which can be edited, revised and updated over time as new information comes to light.

With respect to Jap Ji sahib - a profound artistic expression; it is inconceivable that Guru Nanak Sahib would have written jap ji in bits and pieces - paurees 28 and 29 after his Sidh Ghost later in life and other parts of Jap ji sahib earlier in life. Unless someone can establish that the cardinal question which Guru Nanak Sahib posed at the outset of Jap Ji sahib ( Kiv saachiara hoeeai Kiv Koorai thuttai paal) was also written later in life, it is not reasonable to say that Jap Ji sahib was written later in life simply because pauree 28 and 29 appears to be summary of Sidh Ghost. It is more reasonable to say that the entire Japji sahib was written at the same time when he posed Kiv saachiara hoeeai Kiv Koorai thuttai paal - more likely earlier in his life to to chalk out a path for his spiritual journey ahead. in my view Sidh ghost is an elaboration of pauree 28 and 29 and not the other way around as you note.
 

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