Respected aad ji,
Your explanation and my putting forward any thing more than this may only tantamount to displeasure of other members who have opinion that is not exactly the same as ours. So I want to not to enter further as this may not be liked and appreciated .I put rest to this discussion with an open mind that we are attuned to the Idea that bani is Nirankaar and sabad Guru is supreme, the status of holy person or saint has to be lower than this. I think the sabad are the compilations when it was not in the form of sabad guru. Everything also cannot and ,probably , was not included in it.
Hence the difficulty.
I have an opinion that is well spelt out as above, may be some members do not agree. I put forward some lines that would be replication of the concept that Guru ji is not talking of sabad guru as a sant though.
Let us look at the following.
jh jh sMq ArwDih qh qh pRgtwieAw ] (456-18, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Wherever the Saints worship the Lord in adoration, there He is revealed.
1.In the above line the contextual meaning leads one to think that Saint is not necessarily sabad Guru , the SGGS. Any person who has qualified as a saint shall receive the blessings of the lord in the form of His darshan or meeting Him. Saint may be His devotee with higher spiritual achievements. The next few lines in continuation of the above are as follows:
pRiB Awip lIey smwie shij suBwie Bgq kwrj swirAw ] (456-19, Awsw, mÚ 5)
God blends Himself with His devotees in His natural way, and resolves their affairs.
Awnµd hir js mhw mMgl srbdUK ivswirAw ] (456-19, Awsw, mÚ 5)
In the ecstasy of the Lord's Praises, they obtain supreme joy, and forget all their sorrows.
[/FONT]One can easily say that saint has not been stated as sabad guru or vice versa in the above lines.
2. Let us again have the look at the following line.
iQru sMqn sohwgu mrY n jwvey ] (457-2, Awsw, mÚ 5)
The Husband Lord of the Saints is eternal; He does not die or go away.[/FONT]
In the above line also the contextual meaning shall also not be sabad-guru.It clearly refers to a person or a human being. Having said this it can be concluded that Guru sahib had something else in mind while authoring this line or some other lines that convey the idea that sant is an individual only.
We tend to believe that everything stated about saint should be sabad Guru because we are always bound by an idea that sabad Guru is supreme.Yes, it is so but then we shall not do full justification to this term that has been employed and used in bani to convey that we can even bow to the individuals who are stated to be saints and not giving them the status of guru though it cannot be denied that at many places the saints have been given the status of guru .
hir AMimRq bUMd suhwvxI imil swDU pIvxhwru ] (134-12, mwJ, mÚ 5)
The drops of the Lord's Nectar are so beautiful! Meeting the Holy Saint, we drink these in.[/FONT]
I think there cannot be an area of agreement when we arrive at any conclusion as to who is a saint and what is the definition.There are many other quotes in bani that are suggestive of that Saints are persons of higher spiritual status and we should bow to them as well and that they can also make us meet the Lord.
I have quoted in above lines that even the Nectar can be obtained with their blessings. The Nectar is only but naam. However, since God only gives us Naam , this idea may run against the sikh philosophy. But then this is the position stated in bani. Some may not agree but then we cannot over simplify the things to make us fit many things in the wider perspective of bani.
It is only an humble submission as well. Stating more than this may result in unpleasantness and hence I conclude that we all have opinions that need not converge but we all have the right to interpret the things as per our understanding.
It is of little significance if we state that we do not agree with the observation of other member.We can always be silient about this.
Extending the the theme further for understanding and appreciating -Can you not be saint and what is wrong if I bow to you as well and seek your blessings for going ahead. I do not think that I shall be doing anything contrary to bani. Yes, I shall, in that case, not take you as my Guru but a person full of love and devotion of Lord.?
3. There is a clear cut difference between a saint and sangat, the holy congrgation as well.
imlau sMqn kY sMig moih auDwir lyhu ] (457-16, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Let me join the Society of the Saints - save me, Lord!
I have not put forward these to make an impression that I am correct but to impress upon that there is A siant that has higher status than any individual who is a seeker like us. We shall not be doing anything contrary to bani if we hold him in high esteem and even seek his blessings as is stated in bani.
syvw sw iqsu BwvsI sMqw kI hoie Cwru ] (137-2, mwJ, mÚ 5)
He has no end or limitation. That service is pleasing to Him, which makes one humble, like the dust of the feet of the Saints[/FONT]
In the above line the term used in Gurmukhi is 'santa' that would mean plural and hence is a generic term different from sangat.
swDu imlY pUrb sMjog ] (153-2, gauVI, mÚ 1)
One meets the Holy Saint only through perfect destiny[/FONT]
In the above line as well the idea of sant is reflected as an individual person and not ,necessarily, the Guru that is for us sabad guru. Meeting saints is pre-destined.
We have full explanation of a Siant in Sukhmani sahib as well. One can always refer to that if the doubt still persists.
kir syvw sMqw AMimRqu muiK pwhw jIau ] (173-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Let's serve the Saints, and drink in the Ambrosial Nectar.
The term employed in Gurmukhi is again Plural thus conveying an idea that saints are individuals only.
sMq jnw imil pwieAw myry goivdw myrw hir pRBu sjxu sYxI jIau ] (174-1, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Meeting the Saints, O my Lord of the Universe, I have found my Lord God, my Companion, my Best Friend.
mY mylhu sMq myrw hir pRBu sjxu mY min qin BuK lgweIAw jIau ] (174-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
O Saints, unite me with my Lord God, my Best Friend; my mind and body are hungry for Him.[/FONT]
I seek forgiveness if it is the cause of annoyance to some members.
With kind regards.
Note: I seem to have read a post of aad ji stating that sant should be SGGS ji.This post is in response to that post. However, on second look I am not able to trace her post here in the thread.
Note2.
Respected aad ji,
I am able to locate the post. It is on page 9. I was searching for it on page 10 .My mistake.
Regards
Your explanation and my putting forward any thing more than this may only tantamount to displeasure of other members who have opinion that is not exactly the same as ours. So I want to not to enter further as this may not be liked and appreciated .I put rest to this discussion with an open mind that we are attuned to the Idea that bani is Nirankaar and sabad Guru is supreme, the status of holy person or saint has to be lower than this. I think the sabad are the compilations when it was not in the form of sabad guru. Everything also cannot and ,probably , was not included in it.
Hence the difficulty.
I have an opinion that is well spelt out as above, may be some members do not agree. I put forward some lines that would be replication of the concept that Guru ji is not talking of sabad guru as a sant though.
Let us look at the following.
jh jh sMq ArwDih qh qh pRgtwieAw ] (456-18, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Wherever the Saints worship the Lord in adoration, there He is revealed.
1.In the above line the contextual meaning leads one to think that Saint is not necessarily sabad Guru , the SGGS. Any person who has qualified as a saint shall receive the blessings of the lord in the form of His darshan or meeting Him. Saint may be His devotee with higher spiritual achievements. The next few lines in continuation of the above are as follows:
pRiB Awip lIey smwie shij suBwie Bgq kwrj swirAw ] (456-19, Awsw, mÚ 5)
God blends Himself with His devotees in His natural way, and resolves their affairs.
Awnµd hir js mhw mMgl srbdUK ivswirAw ] (456-19, Awsw, mÚ 5)
In the ecstasy of the Lord's Praises, they obtain supreme joy, and forget all their sorrows.
[/FONT]One can easily say that saint has not been stated as sabad guru or vice versa in the above lines.
2. Let us again have the look at the following line.
iQru sMqn sohwgu mrY n jwvey ] (457-2, Awsw, mÚ 5)
The Husband Lord of the Saints is eternal; He does not die or go away.[/FONT]
In the above line also the contextual meaning shall also not be sabad-guru.It clearly refers to a person or a human being. Having said this it can be concluded that Guru sahib had something else in mind while authoring this line or some other lines that convey the idea that sant is an individual only.
We tend to believe that everything stated about saint should be sabad Guru because we are always bound by an idea that sabad Guru is supreme.Yes, it is so but then we shall not do full justification to this term that has been employed and used in bani to convey that we can even bow to the individuals who are stated to be saints and not giving them the status of guru though it cannot be denied that at many places the saints have been given the status of guru .
hir AMimRq bUMd suhwvxI imil swDU pIvxhwru ] (134-12, mwJ, mÚ 5)
The drops of the Lord's Nectar are so beautiful! Meeting the Holy Saint, we drink these in.[/FONT]
I think there cannot be an area of agreement when we arrive at any conclusion as to who is a saint and what is the definition.There are many other quotes in bani that are suggestive of that Saints are persons of higher spiritual status and we should bow to them as well and that they can also make us meet the Lord.
I have quoted in above lines that even the Nectar can be obtained with their blessings. The Nectar is only but naam. However, since God only gives us Naam , this idea may run against the sikh philosophy. But then this is the position stated in bani. Some may not agree but then we cannot over simplify the things to make us fit many things in the wider perspective of bani.
It is only an humble submission as well. Stating more than this may result in unpleasantness and hence I conclude that we all have opinions that need not converge but we all have the right to interpret the things as per our understanding.
It is of little significance if we state that we do not agree with the observation of other member.We can always be silient about this.
Extending the the theme further for understanding and appreciating -Can you not be saint and what is wrong if I bow to you as well and seek your blessings for going ahead. I do not think that I shall be doing anything contrary to bani. Yes, I shall, in that case, not take you as my Guru but a person full of love and devotion of Lord.?
3. There is a clear cut difference between a saint and sangat, the holy congrgation as well.
imlau sMqn kY sMig moih auDwir lyhu ] (457-16, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Let me join the Society of the Saints - save me, Lord!
I have not put forward these to make an impression that I am correct but to impress upon that there is A siant that has higher status than any individual who is a seeker like us. We shall not be doing anything contrary to bani if we hold him in high esteem and even seek his blessings as is stated in bani.
syvw sw iqsu BwvsI sMqw kI hoie Cwru ] (137-2, mwJ, mÚ 5)
He has no end or limitation. That service is pleasing to Him, which makes one humble, like the dust of the feet of the Saints[/FONT]
In the above line the term used in Gurmukhi is 'santa' that would mean plural and hence is a generic term different from sangat.
swDu imlY pUrb sMjog ] (153-2, gauVI, mÚ 1)
One meets the Holy Saint only through perfect destiny[/FONT]
In the above line as well the idea of sant is reflected as an individual person and not ,necessarily, the Guru that is for us sabad guru. Meeting saints is pre-destined.
We have full explanation of a Siant in Sukhmani sahib as well. One can always refer to that if the doubt still persists.
kir syvw sMqw AMimRqu muiK pwhw jIau ] (173-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Let's serve the Saints, and drink in the Ambrosial Nectar.
The term employed in Gurmukhi is again Plural thus conveying an idea that saints are individuals only.
sMq jnw imil pwieAw myry goivdw myrw hir pRBu sjxu sYxI jIau ] (174-1, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Meeting the Saints, O my Lord of the Universe, I have found my Lord God, my Companion, my Best Friend.
mY mylhu sMq myrw hir pRBu sjxu mY min qin BuK lgweIAw jIau ] (174-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
O Saints, unite me with my Lord God, my Best Friend; my mind and body are hungry for Him.[/FONT]
I seek forgiveness if it is the cause of annoyance to some members.
With kind regards.
Note: I seem to have read a post of aad ji stating that sant should be SGGS ji.This post is in response to that post. However, on second look I am not able to trace her post here in the thread.
Note2.
Respected aad ji,
I am able to locate the post. It is on page 9. I was searching for it on page 10 .My mistake.
Regards
But pk ji and I are usually in fairly close agreement.
