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What Gurus Really Taught - A Different Perspective

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Mai Harinder Kaur

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My understanding is that naam is much more than a name. Japji details the attributes of God. We should aspire to those attributes so it follows that naam japna is more related to the way we behave to achieve this. Naam japna is how to live our life as Gurbani also states that simple meditation or repeating a name has limited effect. These are just my thoughts!


What is Naam is a very deep and complex topic. On one level Naam is often translated simply as "Name." A few weeks ago I had a rather strange experience.

During the worst of the BP oil debacle, it was suggested that, for several reasons, this could effectively kill off the life of the Gulf of Mexico, spread to the whole Caribbean, onto the Atlantic, then to the other oceans, and eventually resulting in the extinguishing of life on this planet. I will not debate the possibility or probability of this; it is just some necessary background.

I was sitting in our backyard lawnswing on a beautiful summer day. Birds were singing, our garden was flourishing and the flowers were in full bloom. A slight breeze wafted through the yard. Perfection of a sort.

Then - it was all gone. The swing was there, the houses were there, but everything else was just gone. A grey, lifeless mass was all that remained of what had been alive and growing. The only life there was my conscioiusness. And yet it was all alive; the boundaries between living and nonliving disappeared, there was no me and everything else, there was not even us, there was only oneness.

The living things reappeared, but the oneness remained. There was no Mai, no tree, no house, no squirrel, it was all an absolute unity. It faded into normal consciousness except everything around me was unspeakably beautiful. Of course, such experiences cannot be accurately described; I just do my best.

This is another, partial definition of Naam. I think. of Naam.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Findingmyway
DIVINE GREETINGS
In Sikh Philosophy as envisaged in Gurbaani a true Gursikh should know THEWORD GUROO only, Should live with THEWORD GUROO only and depart from this world with THE WORD GUROO only.For a Gursikh there is nothing beyond THE WORD GUROO only
In view of this if we deliberate THE WORD GUROO you are likely to understand the real meaning of NAAMu.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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MAI HARINDER KAUR Ji
GUROO FATEH PARVAN HOWE Ji
You have rightly mentioned that NAAM is complex and deep.This is so till you get the knowledge for what you are looking for,once you get the knowledge the same thing becomes simple.
As a matter of fact many of us are not aware as to what we have to know from Gurbaani which is our present GUROO.The teachings of our Gurus are present withinGurbaani so we should try to grasp the intrisic message of the teachings.
This should be our main target.
In fact as I have experienced,from Gurbaani we must get the knowledge about
SATiGURu.Then SATiGURu will provide the knowledge of NAAMu.Once you get the knowledge of NAAMu from your SATiGURu then you will be able to know how complex the NAAMu is .
So let us find our SATi GURu.This you will have to find yourself from Gurbaani making a sincere request to the present GUROO.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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MAI HARINDER KAUR Ji
GUROO FATEH PARVAN HOWE Ji
You have rightly mentioned that NAAM is complex and deep.This is so till you get the knowledge for what you are looking for,once you get the knowledge the same thing becomes simple.
As a matter of fact many of us are not aware as to what we have to know from Gurbaani which is our present GUROO.The teachings of our Gurus are present withinGurbaani so we should try to grasp the intrisic message of the teachings.
This should be our main target.
In fact as I have experienced,from Gurbaani we must get the knowledge about
SATiGURu.Then SATiGURu will provide the knowledge of NAAMu.Once you get the knowledge of NAAMu from your SATiGURu then you will be able to know how complex the NAAMu is .
So let us find our SATi GURu.This you will have to find yourself from Gurbaani making a sincere request to the present GUROO.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga

I am really a very simple Sikh and am way out of my depth on such subjects.

At one time, before the stroke that took my Punjabi, I could read and study Gurbani much better than I can now. Functioning with about 75% of my brain, relearning is slow and very difficult. (What I have lost verbally seems to have been replaced with visual creativity. It's all a trade-off.)

So, I do as I am able. When it is Hukam of Vaheguru, I will know.
 

Ecumenigal

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Regarding the difference between the original teachings and what is expressed in the culture: I have seen this a lot, as I have been a "religion gypsie". I've always longed for the group practice and sense of community that I imagine would come from being an actual member of a religion that I could really say I believed in. There are many religions that hold deep wisdom, and I can come close to embracing it, but the disconnect between the theology itself and the way the culture expresses it is often so different that my individual appreciative "take" on the theology doesn't get me any closer to experiencing the community that I long for. Maybe it is a "Holy Grail" I only imagine exists, where I could share the experience of spiritual longing and ecstasy with people who "speak my language" and "get it".

Very often I have befriended Christian spiritual leaders who privately agree with my views on things, but dare not admit it to their congregations. (One Methodist minister told me that he thought MOST Christian ministers, excluding the charismatic, pentecostal types, were secretly universalists.)

When I myself was a religion student, I suffered from the phenomenon that education is inherently a destructive process, as it tears down old understandings in order to add new information. It was hard for me that my Methodist minister turned atheist professor never came back around to acknowledging that there was something useful or worthwhile in the religions that he was tearing apart with archaeological and historical information.

A Mennonite minister friend said that this was an almost universal complaint of Seminary students. Education makes things go from black and white to shades of grey. I never did have a black and white view or a solid faith, but being a religion major made things complex to the point that claiming to know anything for sure, or even putting strong faith in anything, became beyond absurd.

But back to talking specifically about the difference between core teachings and cultural expressions: I remember reading a story about Ghandi reading the Bible and taking a great interest in Christianity, calling it the most complete religion. He was very excited to meet some Christians, but became disappointed and lost interest when he found that there was no human embodiment of the religion that he saw in those pages.

I feel the same way about the religion that I was born into (but not raised in), Mormonism. There is a lot to appreciate about it. I affectionately call it "Vedic Christianity". I generally read the Bible through Vedic eyes, and what I see is a Jesus who was teaching Vedic wisdom. I see this especially because I have read the Essene Gospels of Peace, a Rosicrucian book called "The Mystical Life of Jesus" and a few books presenting evidence that Jesus traveled and learned in the east.

But ultimately, it holds no meaning for me to call myself a Christian or a Mormon if there is no community embodiment of what it is I see and appreciate in those religions.

I can wholeheartedly agree with the basic tenets of the Sikh religion, and yet I can see on various websites that human nature creeps in there and, as the original poster said, people make divisions and feel that they have the "one true religion". There is a great TED talk by Jonathan Haidt on moral humility and why we humans gravitate toward "one right way" thinking. I can also see some ironies, like rejecting all legalism and yet adopting some new forms of it.

However, I'd like to take this opportunity to express how heart-warming it is to be on these forums and see that that basic tenets of Sikhism DO shine through. I had just been having a terrible time trying to fit in on some Mormon forums because I live in a 90% Mormon area and it would be so convenient if I could see my way clear to join them, or at least be active in the community. But, even though Mormonism is, I think, the most universalist of Christian religions (everyone goes to some level of heaven, there is no Hell, you don't have to become a Mormon in this life to be OK, and we're all co-eternal with God, having no beginning and no end) it is also one of the most prostletyzing religions with the boldest claims to having a unique spiritual authority on the Earth. This side of the religion plays into the human ego quite a lot, and I find it very difficult to avoid becoming the recipient of very disrespectful prostelyting behavior.

When I came to this site, and first read the "New to Sikhism" forum thread on the language barrier, it actually brought tears to my eyes that people were so very polite, offered the possibility of being wrong, and blessed each other even in disagreement.

So, my point in all this rambling is that from the perspective of this new seeker of Sikhism, the original teachings of universal love and respectfulness DO shine through, loud and clear, more than any other religious community that I have visited.

This touched my heart when I really needed some healing, and I thank you for that.wahkaurcheeringkudiwahkaur
 

Astroboy

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It will be good if references from Gurbani are given. So that there can be a point of focus for this discussion.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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MAI HARINDER KAUR JI
PL ACCEPT MY DIVINE GREETINGS,
I am extremely thakful to you for your heart felt response.I am sorry if I have given you any botheration.
From the contents of your response you are already connected with SATiGURU and you are experiencing the blessings of NAAMu.I wish I would touch your feet.I would always pray HARi Ji to bless you with good health and be always wiyh you/
With kind regards
Prakash.s.bagga
 

Mai Harinder Kaur

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MAI HARINDER KAUR JI
PL ACCEPT MY DIVINE GREETINGS,
I am extremely thakful to you for your heart felt response.I am sorry if I have given you any botheration.
From the contents of your response you are already connected with SATiGURU and you are experiencing the blessings of NAAMu.I wish I would touch your feet.I would always pray HARi Ji to bless you with good health and be always wiyh you/
With kind regards
Prakash.s.bagga

LOL, botheration is a function of ego, not to be taken seriously, however bothering it is. My own ego, that. It's infinitely better not to stomp on the other person's ego needlessly. My ego is alive and well and kicking, but you didn't bother me at all. Or only for a very brief moment.

I intensely dislike the Indian custom of touching the feet, perhaps because I was born and raised in North America. All else aside, it intends to inflate the ego. Anyway, I have promised to kick the next person who tries. Crores times better to touch the feet of the Guru by the matha tek to Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. That inflates no one's ego.

As I said, I am a simple Kaur and I would love to retire from my public cyberlife. I never intended to be noticed. It's only that I just can't keep my big mouth shut.


I like ice cream. It's very chardi kala! icecreamkudi
 

Astroboy

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I have been a "religion gypsie". I've always longed for the group practice and sense of community that I imagine would come from being an actual member of a religion that I could really say I believed in. There are many religions that hold deep wisdom, and I can come close to embracing it, but the disconnect between the theology itself and the way the culture expresses it is often so different that my individual appreciative "take" on the theology doesn't get me any closer to experiencing the community that I long for.

Guru Nanak was asked, "Who is your Guru, your Master ?" He replied, "The Shabda is the Guru. My soul is His disciple."

How Shabad is described in SGGS:
ਭੁਗਤਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦਇਆ ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਵਾਜਹਿ ਨਾਦ
भुगति गिआनु दइआ भंडारणि घटि घटि वाजहि नाद ॥
Bẖugaṯ gi▫ān ḏa▫i▫ā bẖandāraṇ gẖat gẖat vājėh nāḏ.
Let spiritual wisdom be your food, and compassion your attendant. The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates in each and every heart.

It is very apparent that the words Shabad, Bani and Naam has been used interchangeably to express the same experience.
 

manes_palam

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Nov 5, 2006
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Re: Introducing Myself

ssa akal ji ,

ram waheguru rahim jagdish .....so many words which direct us towards creator is used by the gurus in the gurbani

by this they are also creating a paradox that god has no name ..... they are all given by human kind .......hence they are only directions towards formless/ nameless....... after you reach the destination one becomes silent ..........cannot speak a word coz words become smaller to be told of such a big truth(god)..... i havent reached anywhere this is not my experience only a interpretation of japji sahib .....

thank you


Respectable JASPI Ji
Accept my Divine Greetings
From the contents of your message I am convinced that the frequencies of our thought are same.Your contents are true reflection of your clear understanding about the messages of Gurbaani
I maybe allowed to simply realign your contents just to be more specific.Although the whole Gurbaani is full of DIVINE WORDS and can not be classied in any way.But still for the sake of convinience we find that the Gurbaani messages can be grouped in three as under
Group -A: The messages related to pure sprituality
Group-B: The messages related to the ART OF LIVING
Group -C: The messagesrelated to certain Historical incidences during the period
Gurbaani being revealed
The messages of Group-B and C are understood well.
The main problem is with the understanding of the messages of Group-A as these messages convey the main objective of Gurbaani.And the understanding of these messages require the correct knowledge of Grammer of the words .Because many of us are not familiar with the Grammer of Gurbaani words and this has resulted in the vast variation and to other problems you have mentioned earlier.
I wouldgive a n example of a Gurbaani spritual Gurbaani messae which is the ULTIMATE GOAL of knowing and practicing.Pl give a thought to the following message from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

RAMNAAMU UR MEE GAEO JAA KE SUM NAHI KOE
JIH SIMRAT SANKAT MITE DARAS TUHARO HOE pp1429

It is obvious we must know this RAMNAAMU ......................?Is this the word RAM
or Is this the word WAHiGUROO .What is this according to Gurbaani?

With best wishes and regards
PRAKASH.S.BAGGA
 
Jan 16, 2010
36
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Re: Introducing Myself

There is a truism " Religion is Spirituality gone wrong." The Muse goes on to add that it's the 'regimentation', the 'organization' that goes towards the wrong. If it is a Truism, then Sikhism, being a religion, is subject to the laws of this Truism--- no exceptions made or expected.

Be that as it may, I see no reason for anyone, least of all a Sikh, to despair at this sullying ...this mutilation at the hands of people following an agenda patently different from the ideal.

It gives me great solace to remember that the Great Guru jis are like the sun itself whose very 'dharma' is to keep on radiating light, warmth, life-force. And never to waver from this dharma irrespective of whether the life-force falls on receptive humanity or a mound of crap.

I also take refuge in the fact that 'dharma' ( I make no excuses for my abhorrence of the phirangi word 'religion') is a very private and personal matter; and that my dharma does not place any onus on me to proselytize.

Gurufateh.
 

findingmyway

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LOL, botheration is a function of ego, not to be taken seriously, however bothering it is. My own ego, that. It's infinitely better not to stomp on the other person's ego needlessly. My ego is alive and well and kicking, but you didn't bother me at all. Or only for a very brief moment.

I intensely dislike the Indian custom of touching the feet, perhaps because I was born and raised in North America. All else aside, it intends to inflate the ego. Anyway, I have promised to kick the next person who tries. Crores times better to touch the feet of the Guru by the matha tek to Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. That inflates no one's ego.

As I said, I am a simple Kaur and I would love to retire from my public cyberlife. I never intended to be noticed. It's only that I just can't keep my big mouth shut.


I like ice cream. It's very chardi kala! icecreamkudi


Please continue to share the chardi kala ice cream as many of us love to share with you ;) icecreamkaur
 
Aug 28, 2010
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NAAMJAP Ji
Pl Accept my DIVINE GREETINGS

By the grace of SATiGURu Ji I would share of my Gurbaani perception for the conents of the message related to the concept of Guru,Shabad and Baani.
I find that we are not giving any importance to the Grammer of Gurbaani words.IF WE DONT DO SO we shall always be confused regarding the true message of Gurbaani understanding.
If we carefully pay attention to the words of Gurbaani we find that It is the word SHABADu being reffered as GUROO[Not the word SHABAD} Gramatically the word SHABADu is SINGULAR.This consideration totally changes the reference meaning what it should be.
Quote from Gurbaani.The line is

SHABADu GUROO SURTi DHUNi CHELAA pp943SGGSJi

Secondly it is impotant to understand the grammer of the word GUROO itself.I have realised that the understanding of grammer of this word GUROO is the very first step
to forward further understanding of the whole of Gurbaani

SECONDLY THE WORD NAAMu is again Gramatically SINGULAR
THIRDLY the word BAANI is Gramatically SINGULAR

All the above words though being SINGULAR are not interchageable as their reference
meanings are different..

I may provide a clue for the reference meanings to be different you can analyse and verify.
In Gurbaani we come across three types of word GUROO[This word has two lines under its last letter R] ,....GURU[ this word has single line under its last letter R] and ..the word GUR[this word has no line iunder its last letter R]
The above three words are different withreference to grammer therefore different reference meanings'Knowing this and their interrelation ship is KEY to the understanding of the whole Gurbaani
We all are stuck up here onlythat is why we differ in our Gurbaani perception
Whatever is presented you must verify yourself.
With best wishes and Regards
Prakash.s.Bagga


,
 

Astroboy

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Prakash.s.Bagga Ji,

Prof. Sahib Singh is the advocate as regards to Grammar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Let's discuss what explanation he brings out with regards to this tuk:-

ਪਵਨ ਅਰੰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਲੇ ਰਹਉ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਥਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਅਗਨਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੀ ॥੪੪॥

ਪਵਨ = ਪ੍ਰਾਣ। ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ = ਸੁਰਤਿ ਦੀ ਧੁਨਿ, ਲਗਨ, ਟਿਕਾਉ। ਅਕਥ = ਉਹ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਆਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ। ਰਹਉ = ਮੈਂ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹਾਂ। {ਨੋਟ: ਉਪਰਲੀ ਪਉੜੀ ਦੇ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਰਹਹੁ' ਦੇ ਜੋੜ ਦਾ ਇਸ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਫ਼ਰਕ ਧਿਆਨ-ਯੋਗ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ "ਤੁਸੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹੋ"}। ਜੁਗ = ਜੁਗ ਵਿਚ। ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ = ਹਰੇਕ ਜੁਗ ਵਿਚ। ਗੋਪਾਲ = ਧਰਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਲਣ ਵਾਲਾ। ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ = ਕੇਵਲ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹੀ। ਜਿਤੁ = ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਨਿਵਾਰੀ = ਦੂਰ ਕੀਤੀ।੪੪।

(ਉੱਤਰ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਹੀ ਹਸਤੀ ਦਾ ਮੁੱਢ ਹਨ। (ਇਹ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਦਾ) ਸਮਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈਣ ਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸ਼ਬਦ (ਮੇਰਾ) ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ, ਮੇਰੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਟਿਕਾਉ (ਉਸ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ) ਸਿੱਖ ਹੈ। ਮੈਂ ਅਕੱਥ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਭਾਵ, ਗੁਣ ਗਾ ਕੇ) ਮਾਇਆ ਤੋਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਤੇ, ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਉਹ ਗੁਰ-ਗੋਪਾਲ ਹਰੇਕ ਜੁਗ ਵਿਚ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈ। ਕੇਵਲ ਗੁਰ-ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਹੀ) ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਹਉਮੈ (ਖ਼ੁਦ-ਗਰਜ਼ੀ ਦੀ) ਅੱਗ (ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ) ਦੂਰ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ।੪੪।
 
Aug 28, 2010
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NAAMJAP Ji
Pl accept DIVINE GREETINGS
Than you very much for indicating the complete quote in Gurmukhi.I shall also try to quote in Gurmukhe it would be more appropriate.
I may inform you that my interest in Gurbaani is credited to the ten volumes of Gurbaani interpretations.I have great respect for Prof Sahib Singh ji as His contribution is marvelous.
I deeply studied the Gurbaani Grammer written by Prof Sahib ji and Second Gurbaani grammer books written by S JOGINDER SINGH TALWARA[Two volumes}
this again a beautiful treatise on Gurbaani Grammer.
Inspite of the studies of these books I still felt something grossly missing for better and
more clear understanding of Gurbaani.One day it struck to me to acquire a proper knowledge of SANSKRIT GRAMMER.In my school studies I had Sanskrit as my regular subject.
Surprisingly when I applied the concept of the pattern of SANSKRIT GRAMMER to the words which are ADJECTIVES/and or NOUNS a different concept of Gurbaani understanding emerged and I could get into the intrisic meaning of the Gurbaani wordswith more clarity. It is this conecpt perception which is certainly quite differentthan what has been said so far..But I can assure you there is nothing outsde the purview of SGGS ji
I have noticed that so farall our preachers and scholars have oversighted the real pattern of Grammer for Adjectives and Noun words.It is this oversightness whch is enabling us to know what is right or wrong.

In this reference you must have noticed we all tend to interprate Gurbaani using the words which are not the contents of SGGGS ji s language.eg
In India we use the word PARMATMA in interpretation of Gurbaani.You will surprise to note that this word is not at all content in SGGS ji.
Similarly I find that we make use of the word GOD to make the understanding of Gurbaani.Again the word GOD too is not a word of Gurbaani Vocabulary.
I am not against these words.These words have their own relevance.But to what extent the use of these words helps us inunderstanding of Gurbaani.This is doutful.

I am presenting you as to where we are lacking and what we should improve so that a true and real concept of GURU NANAKcan be established.
I may tell you frankly in Sikh phylosophy there is nothing beyond THE WORD GUROO which is reffered in your quote as SHABADuGUROO.{Not SHABADGUROO}..We should try to understand this very clearly.
Sorry for such a long contents but I felt this important for your consideration
With regards
PRAKASH.S.BAGGA
 

Astroboy

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I may tell you frankly in Sikh phylosophy there is nothing beyond THE WORD GUROO which is reffered in your quote as SHABADuGUROO.{Not SHABADGUROO}..We should try to understand this very clearly.
Sorry for such a long contents but I felt this important for your consideration
With regards
PRAKASH.S.BAGGA

I think it is better if you open your cards and pour out your views as it would be easier to discuss them in length and breath.

~ namjap ~
 

Ecumenigal

SPNer
Sep 13, 2010
12
14
Orem, Utah U.S.A.
Re: Introducing Myself

There is a truism " Religion is Spirituality gone wrong." The Muse goes on to add that it's the 'regimentation', the 'organization' that goes towards the wrong.]

I like this. Since truth is paradoxical and fluid (at least in relationship to the inadequacy of words to pinpoint it), as soon as you institutionalize the method for passing on teachings, you loose quality and precision. For a teaching to become a religion, it has to become institutionalized. In this way you have "quality control". The reward for this is that the teachings can be shared with more people, hopefully to benefit more people. The down side is that you loose the precision available through the more flexible one-on-one teaching format.
 
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