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Yogism Turbans And White Robes: The Latest Yoga Craze Is Kundalini

chazSingh

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Well, we all get away. We die.
There are things he said in his final years during his Japji Sahib talks, little details which i missed when i first watched them. after a year of daily simran and meditation like a wave of sudden enlightenment i understood what he meant, through my own inner experience...

That was the moment when for me, i understood him as being genuine. Regardless of what happened in his past, what some of his followers may have done...for me in his latter years He hit some spiritual heights.

If i was judged on everything i did in my past, i'd have no chance for any credibility on this forum nor anywhere else...

thank god that in Guru Nanaks house, worthless Sinners can become pure like Saints:

har kae sa(n)th milae har miliaa ham keeeae pathith pavaen ||2||
Meeting with the Lord's Saints, I meet with the Lord; this sinner has been sanctified. ||2||

har kae jan ootham jag keheeahi jin miliaa paathhar saen ||
The humble servants of the Lord are said to be exalted in this world; meeting with them, even stones are softened.

jan kee mehimaa baran n saako oue ootham har har kaen ||3||
I cannot even describe the noble grandeur of such humble beings; the Lord, Har, Har, has made them sublime and exalted. ||3||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=4695
 

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chazSingh ji

Why do you believe that taking a good look at the workings of a baba is "judging?

Why is it so important to avoid conflict at the cost of ignoring some blatant facts?

I am going to leave things at these two questions for now. But I could make a long list of spirituality experts who have gained fame for reasons that are utterly amazing to me. And each and everyone of them offered spiritual growth to their followings. Spiritual growth is actually part of the package deal.

It takes dedication to defend their forever ability to subvert simple logic.

Demis Roussos - Forever and ever (official) - YouTube
 

chazSingh

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chazSingh ji

Why do you believe that taking a good look at the workings of a baba is "judging?

Why is it so important to avoid conflict at the cost of ignoring some blatant facts?

I am going to leave things at these two questions for now. But I could make a long list of spirituality experts who have gained fame for reasons that are utterly amazing to me. And each and everyone of them offered spiritual growth to their followings. Spiritual growth is actually part of the package deal.

It takes dedication to defend their forever ability to subvert simple logic.

Demis Roussos - Forever and ever (official) - YouTube

I'm not saying he didnt do anything wrong, or make mistakes...or whether some of his followers were corrupt...this happens in all walks of life including sikhi

For me, Grace can dawn on any man/woman at any given moment in time, and then the past for that person is just a story that once was...the world will continue to mock that person but God has taken a different stance.

In that moment when the mind stops generating thoughts of the past, and dreaming of an illusory future, just in that precise moment, i know god can be experienced, then a mans life changes forever.

I would be a big fool for thinking Yogi Bhajan wasn't strung by the strings of Maya and the 5 thieves to some degree...the same with many followers...the sickness of Ego and greed...but i believe that at the latter stage of Yogi Ji's life, he 'Got it' whatever that is, and some of his later talks about gurbani had so many hidden jewels of wisdom.

For me, those moments were a big inspiration as i was able to relate to it through my own spiritual progression..from that moment i chose not to look at his past and concentrate on those positives...

And yes there are countless completely fake baba's out there...but one must always test their spiritual teacher if they have one, as i do with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...after all these years i wouldn't be diving into Gurbani if elements of it didn't unfold itself before my very being.

God Bless Ji
 

Harkiran Kaur

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3HO is always a big conversation starter.

In general, I don't have a problem with yoga as a fitness tool.

Kundalini yoga is not just physical fitness. It's a self professed spiritual path.

I have already chosen my own spiritual path in Sikhi. I don't need any more than that.

For those that choose kundalini yoga and 3HO as their primary spiritual path, fine... that's their choice.

The problem I have is when they try to inexorably combine yoga and Sikhi together. Even worse, many Americans now think that kundalini yoga IS Sikhi!!! This IMO hurts the Sikh faith. Many people in North America when they think about Sikhs, think all white clothed people doing kundalini yoga. This is NOT Sikhi, I am sorry...

Even far worse than the above, are yoga classes being held in dwian halls, with people having their backs turned to SGGSJ. There are photos of this online... ( I can't find right now at work)

Also, 3HO seems to add a very Hindu spin on their version of Sikhi. There are photos of prominent 3HO members doing Hindu poojas, like fire worship, in their Gurudwaras. There have been paintings of Hindu Gods and statues also found at 3HO Gurudwaras.

And worst of all: Photos of Yogi Bhajan, hung directly above SGGSJ!

This is why I dislike 3HO. Again, I am not against yoga as a fitness tool. But keep it separate from Sikhi! In North America, the Sikh faith is being seen as something completely different than it actually is, thanks to this organization and the damage it's done!

I also don't want to say... but there may be some truth to it, that since the average American equates white turbans, white clothes, and yoga as Sikhi, that this in part, has contributed to regular Sikhs being mistaken as Muslims. (this was suggested by a friend... but honestly, I don't know... but I can see the possibility in it).
 

Tejwant Singh

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Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

First and foremost, I would like to share some facts about Yogi Bhajan. He was a civil servant, had never done yoga in his life. He never even had a Yoga master in his life. He took it upon himself to give the title Yogi without any Yoga background.

You write:

There are things he said in his final years during his Japji Sahib talks, little details which i missed when i first watched them. after a year of daily simran and meditation like a wave of sudden enlightenment i understood what he meant, through my own inner experience...
Did you read/watch or hear Yogi Bhajan's interpretation to Jap? If you did, please share with us if you agree with them. Are they according to the Gurmat values?

Please express your thoughts about the Jap by Yogi Bhajan. In case you did not know Rajneesh of OSHA also translated the Jap. Have you studied the one from the latter?

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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chazSingh

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Tejwant Singh;187527 Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

First and foremost, I would like to share some facts about Yogi Bhajan. He was a civil servant, had never young yoga ever in his life, never had a Yoga master through which normally all the students learn yoga from. He took upon himself to give the title Yogi without any Yoga background.
Satnaam Tejwant Ji,

Maybe that is the complete truth, maybe it isn't.
there are many aspects of my life know one knows and never will...only God.


You write:



Did you read/watch or hear Yogi Bhajan's interpretation to Jap? If you did, please share with us if you agree with them. Are they according to the Gurmat values?

Please express your thoughts about the Jap by Yogi Bhajan. In case you did not know Rajneesh of OSHA also translated the Jap. Have you studied the one from the latter?
Satnaam Ji,

I will look into This other translation ji...are there any online references?

With regards to Yogi Ji's talks of Japji...there is a series of videos that i watched...only 1 or two are on youtube...i will try and find the rest.

This particular one shook me when i watched it because there were many things i couldn't understand through my practical experience of Simran in Amrit Vela, but the way Yogi Ji explained only Two lines of Japji, just like he described, my whole universe opened up.

The two lines he talks about in this video are:
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||

In this video (in the latter stage of his life) he confesses to making some mistakes in his life, his ego of thinking he knew it all and how it had caught up with him...and then he goes on to describe the above two lines.
First line is described from 8:15 and the second line from 22:00.

I have been reading these two lines all my life without a seconds thought...and i watched this video by yogi ji and it didnt make much sense, until i started taking my Simran seriously and doing amrit vela.

So for me, He said something in such a way that i havn't read or heard before...and through taking my Simran seriously, i feel His explanation of Guru Ji is the truth and at a very deep depth.


Japji Sahib - Lecture by Yogi Bhajan - part 1 - YouTube

 

Tejwant Singh

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Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please read the below as the correct one. I have no idea how many things got omitted.

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

First and foremost, I would like to share some facts about Yogi Bhajan. He was a civil servant, had never done yoga ever in his life, never had a Yoga master through which normally all the students learn yoga from. He took upon himself to give the title Yogi without having any Yoga background.
Satnaam Tejwant Ji,

Maybe that is the complete truth, maybe it isn't.
there are many aspects of my life know one knows and never will...only God.
It is the truth and factual. You have every right to believe it otherwise, however Sikhi is all about truth seeking and I am sure you are aware of that.

Satnaam Ji,

I will look into This other translation ji...are there any online references?

With regards to Yogi Ji's talks of Japji...there is a series of videos that i watched...only 1 or two are on youtube...i will try and find the rest.

This particular one shook me when i watched it because there were many things i couldn't understand through my practical experience of Simran in Amrit Vela, but the way Yogi Ji explained only Two lines of Japji, just like he described, my whole universe opened up.

The two lines he talks about in this video are:
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||

In this video (in the latter stage of his life) he confesses to making some mistakes in his life, his ego of thinking he knew it all and how it had caught up with him...and then he goes on to describe the above two lines.
First line is described from 8:15 and the second line from 22:00.

I have been reading these two lines all my life without a seconds thought...and i watched this video by yogi ji and it didnt make much sense, until i started taking my Simran seriously and doing amrit vela.

So for me, He said something in such a way that i havn't read or heard before...and through taking my Simran seriously, i feel His explanation of Guru Ji is the truth and at a very deep depth.


Japji Sahib - Lecture by Yogi Bhajan - part 1 - YouTube

Pardon my ignorance, but I did not understand how he translated the above two lines. Could you please share Yogi Bhajan's translation with us?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 

chazSingh

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Pardon my ignorance, but I did not understand how he translated the above two lines. Could you please share Yogi Bhajan's translation with us?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
I was the same, i didn't understand what he was talking about nor understood its importance.

Can i explain it to you? i don't think i can, the true meaning of it occurs when you experience it...each line of Gurbani i;m finding is endless in its meaning dependent on the conscious awareness of the reader. Gurbani says we need to 'wake up'. it's talking about our consicousness which is still asleep following computer like generated thoughts/commands.

By 'thinking' he cannot be obtained or understood or 'known' ... thinking is a waste of life energy when its wandering in countless directions, it drains us and we are left with ideas, thoughts and limited understanding....so why think? Mind will always think...it lives by generating thoughts and creates our life experience...if mind stops working, the creation for us stops...so how can we stop thinking? Work it out Ji .. this is what the inner journey is all about (from my experience)...i can;t explain it to you nor show you how.

How can we obtain, experience our Creator without thought? is there a state of being or existence, in between thoughts..is there space in between thoughts? can we find that space, take our attention to it where thoughts no longer take hold of us where were are present in that divine moment where illusion of time no longer exists , in that moment, precise moment where god is forever present in pure stillness and tranquility?

Lets Enjoy the journey to finding this out, as i am :)

next line:
By remaining silent, there is still no silence...so even when we obtain that state where thoughts of past and future and present no longer pull our attention, consciousness and energy, deep in inner seeking and meditation where pure stillness is found, and yet there is still no silence...what a beautiful jewel of gurbani this is.

Something else is there...something else is listening, something else is talking, something else has a shabad ... seek it, have faith in it...fearless on this path.

Like Yogi Ji says...this is the formula...these two lines describe the whole of existance...the meaning just goes deeper and deeper the more you seek within....it just keeps on going and going deeper.Ego says "i have found the truth', yet the more we seek the more there is to discover about ourselves and God, endless, infinte...can we explain that? we can't...we just fall to our feet and surrender more and more to the wonder of God...Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru :)

I'm enjoying the seeking, i'm sure we all are.

God bless.
 
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chazSingh

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Chazji

You would find the goodness and meaning in a dog turd. It is something I admire hugely in you.It is the true message of Sikhism in my view. However, a dog turd remains a dog turd
Harry Ji,

you talk a lot of your past and mistakes you've made...you've shared a lot with the sangat..

now, as a fellow human being, i can either judge you, slander you, and look down on you...or i can appreciate the unique journey you've had and how it's shaped you as a person and how your seeking is allowing you to shape a different kind of future for yourself...i can be there as a friend, to support you and vice versa regardless of the past...i don;t care of your past only what you can do 'Now'. TGod exists in the present moment...not in the illusion of past and future.

I prefer to be your friend... it's why i try to find the positive in all situations..
because deep down...this is a play of God, nothing else exists other than god, and we are all here to find and become that reality.

You, O Creator Lord, are Unfathomable. You Yourself created the Universe,
its colors, qualities and varieties, in so many ways and forms.
You created it, and You alone understand it. It is all Your Play

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=363

That doesn't mean we shouldn't fight to defend people from injustice...but we should try to find the moments of truth in peoples lives because God can shine though at any given moment, and i believe Yogi ji at a part of his life obtained some truth from within.

Just my feelings ji....nothing more

 

Harkiran Kaur

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I think we are getting off topic a bit, as the OP was about kundalini yoga, not specific translations of things that Yogi Bhajan 'may have gotten right'

The fact remains that 3HO as an organization has shaped how the average American (and even Canadian) think of Sikhism, and this is damaging since it's not an accurate picture of what the Sikh faith is.

We don't all wear all white, all the time. We don't all bring yoga mats to the Gurudwara and start doing breathing exercises and fold ourselves into pretzels in the diwan halls. But this is how Sikhi is perceived by MANY people in NA.

We need to separate kundalini yoga from the Sikh faith.

I don't have anything against yoga as I said, but kundalini yoga is a spiritual path in its own right and it is NOT Sikhism! Why would any Sikh even want or need kundalini yoga anyway? They are two different paths that I cant see how they could merge.

Yogi Bhajan is a different story. From everything I have read online, his followers actually revered him more than the Sikh Gurus. There are stories from ex-3HO members saying how they would be in the middle of kirtan or even worse Ardas etc, and stop in the middle, so that Yogi Bhajan could be broadcast over the speakers. It was like his word was as God's. As I said 3HO Gurudwaras still have photos of him above the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and if the photo is not, the members still bow to him as they do Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The fact that he may or may not have gotten a few lines in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji correct is inconsequential. The position in which he was viewed by 3HO members and still is, suggests 'cult' in my mind. The fact that kundalini yoga classes cost money to 3HO members, and it is implied that you need to keep forking over money for more classes to advance spiritually, also suggests 'cult' to my mind. Putting the organization's leader over Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Sikh Gurus to me suggests 'cult'.

I have nothing against 3HO members but they are more 'yogi' than Sikh. And I realize tha vast majority of white Sikhs are 3HO members... and that I am caucasion myself... I have been on more than one ocassion when I mention I am Sikh, I am often asked questions about kundalini yoga... then I have to explain the difference.

Don't even get me started on the cult 'Eckankar'... LOL
 

chazSingh

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I think we are getting off topic a bit, as the OP was about kundalini yoga, not specific translations of things that Yogi Bhajan 'may have gotten right'

The fact remains that 3HO as an organization has shaped how the average American (and even Canadian) think of Sikhism, and this is damaging since it's not an accurate picture of what the Sikh faith is.

We don't all wear all white, all the time. We don't all bring yoga mats to the Gurudwara and start doing breathing exercises and fold ourselves into pretzels in the diwan halls. But this is how Sikhi is perceived by MANY people in NA.

We need to separate kundalini yoga from the Sikh faith.

I don't have anything against yoga as I said, but kundalini yoga is a spiritual path in its own right and it is NOT Sikhism! Why would any Sikh even want or need kundalini yoga anyway? They are two different paths that I cant see how they could merge.

Yogi Bhajan is a different story. From everything I have read online, his followers actually revered him more than the Sikh Gurus. There are stories from ex-3HO members saying how they would be in the middle of kirtan or even worse Ardas etc, and stop in the middle, so that Yogi Bhajan could be broadcast over the speakers. It was like his word was as God's. As I said 3HO Gurudwaras still have photos of him above the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and if the photo is not, the members still bow to him as they do Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The fact that he may or may not have gotten a few lines in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji correct is inconsequential. The position in which he was viewed by 3HO members and still is, suggests 'cult' in my mind. The fact that kundalini yoga classes cost money to 3HO members, and it is implied that you need to keep forking over money for more classes to advance spiritually, also suggests 'cult' to my mind. Putting the organization's leader over Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Sikh Gurus to me suggests 'cult'.

I have nothing against 3HO members but they are more 'yogi' than Sikh. And I realize tha vast majority of white Sikhs are 3HO members... and that I am caucasion myself... I have been on more than one ocassion when I mention I am Sikh, I am often asked questions about kundalini yoga... then I have to explain the difference.

Don't even get me started on the cult 'Eckankar'... LOL

I agree with the majority of what you said...and a lot of what you said is about the 'followers'. Can everything you said not also be applied exactly to the image that many people in Punjab give of Sikhi? to the view people all around the world give of sikhi?

In the U.K many white people think sikhs are 'relaxed' and 'out for a good time' 'good drinkers, and 'throw a great party'...are many of the U.K sikhs not in the wrong for giving out that impression...i used to be one of those people...what a fool i was and still am.

The point is we are all stuck in Maya, and strung by the 5 thieves, so all of us including me, are doing things based on the 5 thieves even on the spiritual path, ego comes into play...we should be trying everything we can to help each other even if it just puts a glimmer of light into anothers life....that's a godsend.

So two lines translated for me from Yogi bhajan was enough to do something inside of me that literally opened up the universe for me...that was many months ago...as my Simran evolves, i understand those two lines even more and many other lines in gurbani...

I can't change others around me, but i can change myself...and i have faith in god (all around and within all) that there are diamonds of wisdom and light in 'everyones' lives from which i can learn from.

God Shows us the False, so that we can understand and become aware of the truth....even the false is a blessing....its all his play...it is not for me to judge the false, but to learn from it and be thankful of it...thats my take on it anayway :)

God Bless JI.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Chaz Ji,

I think my point was, just because he may have gotten two lines right for you, does that mean we should allow 3HO to continue to give a very wrong impression of Sikhi? Should we ignore the damage Yogi Bhajan has done to the Sikh faith, because he hit a chord within you some months ago?

And, the image you had of Sikhi in the UK isn't even related to this... Just because some people everywhere get a bad or wrong impression of something still does not mean we should just allow it to happen. The difference in your case, is that some Sikhs themselves over there are causing their own issues, while with 3HO, this is what they are actually teaching people. And as an organization that teaches people spiritually, we should not allow them to teach wrong information.

I agree with the majority of what you said...and a lot of what you said is about the 'followers'. Can everything you said not also be applied exactly to the image that many people in Punjab give of Sikhi? to the view people all around the world give of sikhi?

In the U.K many white people think sikhs are 'relaxed' and 'out for a good time' 'good drinkers, and 'throw a great party'...are many of the U.K sikhs not in the wrong for giving out that impression...i used to be one of those people...what a fool i was and still am.

The point is we are all stuck in Maya, and strung by the 5 thieves, so all of us including me, are doing things based on the 5 thieves even on the spiritual path, ego comes into play...we should be trying everything we can to help each other even if it just puts a glimmer of light into anothers life....that's a godsend.

So two lines translated for me from Yogi bhajan was enough to do something inside of me that literally opened up the universe for me...that was many months ago...as my Simran evolves, i understand those two lines even more and many other lines in gurbani...

I can't change others around me, but i can change myself...and i have faith in god (all around and within all) that there are diamonds of wisdom and light in 'everyones' lives from which i can learn from.

God Shows us the False, so that we can understand and become aware of the truth....even the false is a blessing....its all his play...it is not for me to judge the false, but to learn from it and be thankful of it...thats my take on it anayway :)

God Bless JI.
 

chazSingh

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Chaz Ji,

I think my point was, just because he may have gotten two lines right for you, does that mean we should allow 3HO to continue to give a very wrong impression of Sikhi? Should we ignore the damage Yogi Bhajan has done to the Sikh faith, because he hit a chord within you some months ago?

And, the image you had of Sikhi in the UK isn't even related to this... Just because some people everywhere get a bad or wrong impression of something still does not mean we should just allow it to happen. The difference in your case, is that some Sikhs themselves over there are causing their own issues, while with 3HO, this is what they are actually teaching people. And as an organization that teaches people spiritually, we should not allow them to teach wrong information.
Agreed,

But i always feel this should be done by setting an example, leading by example.

No amount of internet chatter is going to change the methods of people...if i ever meet some 3HO people that are preaching the wrong things...i hope i can show them otherwise with my own actions :)


In the meantime, I pray that whatever spiritual practice they have is slowly raising their consciousness so that the truth also reveals itself from within themselves...
 

muddymick

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Chaz ji, i appreciete your posts very much, thank you. It is clear to me that you have embarked upon the journey and are not just talking about it, thinking about it or dressing up for it...Much respect! :wahmunda:

Akasha ji

I think my point was, just because he may have gotten two lines right for you, does that mean we should allow 3HO to continue to give a very wrong impression of Sikhi? Should we ignore the damage Yogi Bhajan has done to the Sikh faith, because he hit a chord within you some months ago?

And, the image you had of Sikhi in the UK isn't even related to this... Just because some people everywhere get a bad or wrong impression of something still does not mean we should just allow it to happen. The difference in your case, is that some Sikhs themselves over there are causing their own issues, while with 3HO, this is what they are actually teaching people. And as an organization that teaches people spiritually, we should not allow them to teach wrong information.
When you say that you should not allow people to get the wrong or bad impression of Sikhi how do you plan on countering this?
Many so called sants, jathedars, Babas etc etc are probably also teaching things that you don't perceive as Sikhi or even necessarily agree with from a moral standpoint. What do you propose to do about this?
How do you not allow people to teach what they perceive as spiritual paths?
Who judges?
With what authority?
How will they enforce the judgement?
It is a very problematic area.

I know that it is an arena that nearly all spiritual traditions have had to enter at one time or another.

I would be interested to know what the suggestions are regarding these problems.

:peacesignkaur:
 

Harkiran Kaur

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How do you not allow people to teach what they perceive as spiritual paths?
Who judges?
With what authority?
How will they enforce the judgement?
It is a very problematic area.
:peacesignkaur:
Easy... they can teach whatever spiritual path they want to... just don't call it or imply that it is the Sikh faith!

As for damage control? I am not exactly sure how to go about it... some ex-3HO members already have websites exposing 3HO. All I can do as an individual is correct people when they assume that my religion is kundalini yoga. As an organization... there isn't much we can do because of the vast amounts of cash that 3HO has amassed through yoga classes, camps, selling yogi teas etc., they have a host of lawyers so they can pretty much do whatever they want.
 

Harry Haller

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Chazji

I think the issue is do we consider enlightened those whom utter phrases that we find some empathy with?

We have definitive list of enlightened folk to learn from, 10 to be exact, whilst I am not against finding inspiration from many a source, the private lives of the Metallica group have no interest to me. I certainly would not laud them as an inspiration to mankind, I would laud the statement, not the stater.

I do not feel we can put anyone on a celestial pedal purely because in one moment, there was a connection. For those that actively seek that pedal, that throne, that adoration, makes me question motives even more.

just some food for thought old friend, oh, and the dog turd post, as my sarcasm can sometimes be misleading, please accept is as one of the highest compliments I am capable of. :kudihug:
 

muddymick

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Akasha ji,

Easy... they can teach whatever spiritual path they want to... just don't call it or imply that it is the Sikh faith!
I am not sure it is easy.
They may believe it is Sikhi (if not directly then at least in compliance with) Please don't misconstrue my intention here I am not suggesting what is or in fact what is not Sikhi. I am just trying to contextualise that what ever may (or may not) constitute such a faith is open to individual interpretation.

I wonder how one goes about delineating the orthodox and heterodox?


As for damage control? I am not exactly sure how to go about it... some ex-3HO members already have websites exposing 3HO. All I can do as an individual is correct people when they assume that my religion is kundalini yoga. As an organization... there isn't much we can do because of the vast amounts of cash that 3HO has amassed through yoga classes, camps, selling yogi teas etc., they have a host of lawyers so they can pretty much do whatever they want.
I am at a loss as to how one can approach either such an organisation or in fact individuals who have a less purist (a more eclectic approach if you will) including those who adopt cultural paradigms that have roots in other traditions whether that be kundalini, Vedanta etc?

from a purely personal perspective I am not sure one can effectively control such a phenomena, but one can take solace in the fact that people have a tendency to reject the superfluous trappings of faith (whatever their historical or theological veracity) as they deepen both their practice and understanding of what is authentic and what is not!

Those that neither deepen their practice nor their understanding will always be Sikhs by appearance only anyway.No matter how they dress, what they eat, what they read and at what time or in fact what they claim to believe, and as we all know one can not impose spiritual growth from the outside.


:peacesign:
 

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