Transmigration

Discussion in 'Questions & Answers' started by Simranjit, Mar 7, 2018.

  1. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur

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    I agree. But the you and everyone you are referring to are the costumes. The dream characters... The you and everyone I am referring to are collectively are all the same ONE.

    In other words there is only ONE of us really here, we just don’t know it. It’s really I, and I and I etc... we or the physical bodies are the Sargun or manifest expression of the ONE. But it’s still just ONE. The Haume is false. We think we are this identity in this life but we aren’t. It’s like a part being played in a play, only it’s the same one actor playing all the parts. It’s only once the play is over and the costumes (these haume identities) are removed we see it was the same one actor playing all the parts. (Ang 736) we are asked to reflect where did they come from to begin with and where did they go? The answer at least to me is they are inconsequential. Harkiran is inconsequential as is sukhsingh. Same as our dream characters are inconsequential because they are not us, they aren’t our real identity.
     
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  2. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    Harkiran, your points of view in this thread are most interesting for me....They make me seing something I was (kind of) already seing but from a different inspiring perspective.

    I understand the meaning of the word "inconsequential" but still I'm not sure what you mean when you say that individuals are inconsequential. Could you explain it to me, please?
     
  3. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur

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    Let’s say you dream tonight you are a superstar singer or actress named Starr. In the dream you interacted with your manager, a guy named John and your band members, and producer etc. Now you wake up tomorrow morning and remember being Starr.

    Was Starr real? We’re YOU Starr? Or was Starr inconsequential because it was only a character you played while in the dream? When you woke up you remembered you were Simranjit. So ‘Starr’ was a false identity.... and wholly inconsequential right? How about John your manager? Who was John? Did he exist? Actually John was also YOU. Same as all the band members right? But when you woke up you realized that all of them were only characters created in your dream. By you. They were ALL you right? Therefore, the individuals in that reality were inconsequential because they were all really controlled by YOU Simranjit and when the dream was over YOU (Sinranjit) didn’t cease to exist right and when you woke up you realized that everything was in your own mind and a dream.

    Now apply that same logic to this reality. Because science can already glimpse the ONEness of a base conscious awareness or energy (the observer) me (Harkiran) and you (Sinranjit) are just characters as were John and Starr etc. However when ‘I AM’ will awaken, ‘I’ (meaning me, you, everyone) will realize we were all really one dreamer. Waheguru. Therefore Harkiran, Simranjit etc are inconsequential. However I am not. ‘I’ (you) will wake up one day and realize I (you) was dreaming / creating everything in my own thoughts.
     
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  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    May I ask what difference this has made to you life? I am not getting into a debate on it, we have had enough of them, but simple question, given what you know, what difference has it made to your life?

    thanks
     
  5. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur

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    Huge. Like when your eyes have been opened your whole outlook changes. Instead of hopelessness of thinking this one short life is it before ceasing to exist for rest of eternity, you know there is more. I mean it’s kind of depressing to think that the average 70-80 years is it. That every bit of knowledge you gain, the hobbies you learned, the things you studied, even memories fade and in only a few generations are forgotten. I know very little about my great grandparents. Any further back forget it. So what was the purpose... why live, love, learn, gain wisdom, if only a very very few will ever even be remembered a few generations in the future? What was the point? The answer is there IS a purpose and we don’t cease to exist. It’s only through this human form that conscioisness can ask the very important question of who am I and why am I here. That’s why Gurbani says it’s on THIS life this is your chance to meet Akal Purakh while alive.
     
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  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    In the past, I would have spent some time picking holes in replies like this, but to what end, I am pleased that you have found a way of life and a purpose, genuinely pleased, so rather than question or disrespect your way of life, I would simply question whether it would be applicable to me, only as it is being lauded as a universal answer as opposed to a description of your journey,

    If we run with the concept that this is not a dream, and that God does not intervene in any way shape or form, then what we have are millions of beings all interacting, learning, being born, and dying. Such a concept is equally as eye opening, I never felt hopeless at life, and acceptance of life not being a dream is actually, to me, more comforting, I have an affliction you see, I feel the pain and joy of others, quite acutely, to the point where in the past, I would feel compelled to offer assistance to anyone and everyone who I perceived to be in pain, for us in the west, yes, life is great, we live, we love ,we learn, but for many many millions, life is not really like that, I see a lot of hopelessness, a lot of pain, a lot of suffering, the more I see, the more I myself suffer, to the point where living in the style of a hermit is the only answer, for me anyway, I would not suggest it as a lifestyle. You ask what is the point of all this, only to live an average of 70-80 years, you talk of hobbies, what of those that live a life of suffering and pain? So at this juncture I would ask a simple question, where does Karma come into all this? You wish to cling on to life and eternity due to the pleasant warmth of your life, for those for whom life is a daily challenge, maybe due to disability, or personal demons, would they feel the same? Do they have the same hunger for eternity? Do they pray that in the next life they come back as an able bodied person, or a person that is not being gang raped in a war zone? or a person that does not begin every day shooting up in the arm? or even a person that is not serving a life prison sentence for something they did not do, I wonder if they have the same feelings as you do?

    So the question is simply, thank you for your answer, but why the great inequality in peoples lives, why are some people living nice lives, and some not so nice ones?

    thanks
     
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    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  7. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    Bro I was touching upon this point from a slightly different angle the other day.. At what point do we make the leap from being hermits and feeling the affliction of others to actually doing something..?
    It's a hypocritical question and one which applies to myself..

    As like minded people who obviously see beauty in the world when do we stop the intellectual pursuit and engage?
     
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  8. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Sukh Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I am sorry to say, I have no idea what you are talking about. Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you actually mean because this is not the first time you mentioned about engagement by Sikhs?
    You will be surprised about our engagement in the societies we live in.

    Lots of Sikhs engage themselves daily from Alaska to Australia. Sikh Gurdwaras have food pantries and engage themselves with the needy all over the world. If you need any concrete examples, they are all over the WWW.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  9. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    I have done my time, I did 20 years of it, gave up life and threw myself into the pit of the world , now, I am afraid I would not {censored} on someone if they were on fire, but that is just the stage of life that I am at now, I cannot answer your question, because you are an individual, and even then, even in your individuality, you are also everything, and capable of quite diverse thoughts and actions, although due to the state of being we call personality, most will rarely see the day of light, my own experience is that helping people is done purely for the self, I only helped people because I felt their pain, if I did not, then I would not have helped them, so by helping them, I was easing my own pain, in the end, looking back, most of the people I 'helped' would have made it on their own anyway, so all I in fact did was satisfy my own ego (that I am a good person), and take away the chance for others to feel that wonderful moment when they themselves eased themselves out of a bad situation, and instead, made them feel like victims or that they were helpless, one person in particular comes to mind, all I did was make them more and more helpless the more I did, if I had left well alone, they would probably not be as helpless as they are now, they would be strong, with a sheet of self victory behind them, instead they have sheet of all the things that they were incapable of doing, that I did, the more you give money to a beggar, the more you take away their self respect, their ability to fend for themselves, the more you lend to a gambler, the longer you prolong the gambling problem, the more you assist someone that cannot live on their own means, the more you prolong the inevitable point where they cut their cloth according to their income, the longer you spend propping someone up with emotional problems, the longer they will wallow in their own nightmare, and so on and so on, but that is only my own experiences, I guess we are all different, I do not believe that there is a universal template that applies to us all, we have to find our own way home.
     
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  10. Original

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    Harkiran Kaur Ji

    Much of what you've written compliments two scientific theories:
    1. String theory [wave/particle is ONE] and,
    2. Multiverse [one character playing multiple roles].
    Pauri 16 n 22 of japjisahib supports the view of the infinite worlds [multiverse]. In this theory, where every possible world exists, along with all the infinite versions of HKJ. That is to say, you is the Gobind, Nanak, Christ, Buddha, etc exist in the multiverse. What does that mean ? It means, in the field of infinite possibilities, as pure potential, you exist on all these levels simultaneously. But at the level of experience, you exist only in one [HKJ] - your own projected plane of existence at any one time. This means, HKJ lives today, will live forever and has lived forever. Her unique and independent stay "here n now" cannot be ignored on account she is part of a whole for it is the part that makes up the whole.

    The inconsequential you is fundamental for there cannot be a whole without a part.

    Much obliged
     
  11. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    I think I see what you mean by inconsequentail now, thanks :)

    I start embrazing more and more the same approach. At the same time these "identities" or "characters" suffer, love, feel pain, struggle.... Many people are in so much pain.... And this is not inconsequential. So, the only thing that worries me about this approach that I'm embrazing myself is that thinking that our self percieved identities (and those of others) are unreal and inconsequential could lead us to inaction, to acceptance of pain and suffering. It could stop us from trying to change the world into a better one for everybody. I don't mean this is your case Harkiran, most provably it is not. I just mention it to share my concern as this approach (or a distorted version of it) is almost "trendy" among western "new age" followers and I've meet quite a few good "spiritual" people saying that we must accept the Universe as it is, that only egos suffer, that the desire to change the world comes from ego too and bla bla bla. At the end of the day these people only sing mantras and do yoga...but nothing to make a better world ....

    It is not that I'm doing a lot, either actually.Sigh,....
     
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  12. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    Harry Ji,

    I see love and pain in your replay. A pain that I share. I just wanted to tell you......
     
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  13. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    I think that Sukh Singh is talking about engaging in changing the very structures that make this world so unfair. I look forward to his replay to see if I'm guessing right...
     
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  14. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    this is beautiful and inspiring and makes me happy, among many other reasons that realate more to my inner path, that I came across Sikhi
     
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  15. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    I see beauty in feeling other's pain. Even if we help them because we feel pain and we want to ease it. Actually, would you take your own hand out from a fire if you didn't feel pain?
    I think we share the need to be happy and we cannot be happy while others are suffering. I agree that this is why we want others to stop suffering. But I don't see ego in it.... We are all the same, I think. No wonder that we feel other's pain and that we want to ease it as we want to ease our's.....
     
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  16. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    Why does transmigration even matter? We can never answer the question
     
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  17. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    Alrighty. Gurbani pretty clearly says the opposite to this. There is no I - only You (ਤੁਹੀ, tuhi, god). Here's an example, from Guru Nanak Ji's shaloks beginning on ang 143:

    ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
    Shalok, First Mehl:


    ਹਮ ਜੇਰ ਜਿਮੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਪੀਰਾ ਮਸਾਇਕਾ ਰਾਇਆ ॥
    All the spiritual teachers, their disciples and the rulers of the world shall be buried under the ground.

    ਮੇ ਰਵਦਿ ਬਾਦਿਸਾਹਾ ਅਫਜੂ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥
    The emperors shall also pass away; God alone is Eternal.

    ਏਕ ਤੂਹੀ ਏਕ ਤੁਹੀ ॥੧॥
    You alone, Lord, You alone. ||1||

    ਮਃ ੧ ॥
    First Mehl:


    ਨ ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵਾ ਨਰਾ ॥
    Neither the angels, nor the demons, nor human beings,

    ਨ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕਾ ਧਰਾ ॥
    Nor the Siddhas, nor the seekers shall remain on the earth.

    ਅਸਤਿ ਏਕ ਦਿਗਰਿ ਕੁਈ ॥
    Who else is there?

    ਏਕ ਤੁਈ ਏਕ ਤੁਈ ॥੨॥
    You alone, Lord, You alone. ||2||​

    And so on - I encourage you to find ang 143 and have a read - the shaloks start towards the end of the page.

    Now, imho, informed from what I've learned from Gurbani... the costume that is "I" is temporal, in Maya, and is essentially nothing - it will cease to exist, and all that will be left is god. The experience of your life is not yours. It is god's, and god's alone. We just need to realise this while we're alive and live accordingly. :y:

    Side note: Tuhi tuhi makes a very nice meditation chant. There is some nice kirtan of it online. When I went to Sikh camp back in 2010 we had the privilege of Veer Manpreet Singh Ji visiting at the time and the best memories I have of camp are those 5am kirtan sessions in the dim light, in darbar sahib, with the rest of the really keen campers, quietly chanting along with Veer ji and the instrument he was using. :meditatingkaur:
     
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  18. Original

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    ..WOW... that'll be one hell of a world to live in ! No individual identity would mean no "moral culpability". Ishna's world will be inhibited by tight-fisted liars, cheats sleeping around with whatever takes their fancy and losers twiddling their thumbs because it doesn't really matter, its not them but god who's experiencing it all. Hardly a recipe for social cohesion, hey ?

    Count me in Girl !
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  19. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    welcome to the real world that the rest of us live in
     
  20. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    I have quoted this many times before, only because it is very special to me, but I do feel it is appropriate to bring it up given what you have said, it is the end of one of my favorite books, knulp, by herman hesse

    can't you see that you had to be a gad-about and a vagabond to bring people a bit of child's folly and child's laughter wherever you went? to make all sorts of people love you a little and tease you a little and be a little grateful to you?

    After a short silence Knulp admitted in a whisper:'yes, come to think of it, your right.But that was all in the old days, when I was young. Why didn't I learn a lesson from all that and make something of myself? There was still time.'
    The snow was no longer falling. Again Knulp stooped to rest. He meant to shake the snow off his hat and clothes, but he didn't get round to it, he was tired and lost in thought. Now God was standing right before him, His wide-open eyes gleaming like the sun.
    'Let well enough alone,' said God. 'What's the good of complaining? Don't you see that whatever happened was good and right, that nothing should have been any different? Would you really want to be a gentlemen now, or a master craftsman with a wife and children, reading the fire by the fireside? Wouldn't you run away again this minute to sleep in the woods with the foxes and set traps for birds and catch lizards?'
    Again Knulp started off, unaware that he was staggering with weariness. He felt much happier now and nodded gratefully to everything God said.
    'Look, ' said God, 'I wanted you the way you are and no different. You were a wanderer in my name and wherever you went you brought the settled folk a little homesickness for freedom. In my name, you did silly things and people scoffed at you. You are my child and my brother and a part of me. There is nothing you have enjoyed and suffered that I have not enjoyed and suffered with you.'
    'Yes, ' said Knulp, nodding heavily. 'Yes, that's true, and deep down I've always know it.'
    He lay resting on the snow.His Weary limbs had grown light and his inflamed eyes smiled.
    When he closed them to sleep a little, he still heard God's voice speaking and still looked into his bright eyes.
    'So you've nothing more to complain about ?'
    God's voice asked.
    'Nothing more,' Knulp nodded with a shy laugh
    'And everything's all right? Everything is as it should be?'
    'yes,' Knulp nodded 'Everything is as it should be.'
     
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