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Leisure The Un-named Path

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Leisure The Un-named Path

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
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In the Self
Guru Nanak gave us a true profound wisdom concerning the essence of what it is to be truly religious.This school of learning has now become an identity in itself, all True Religions have Truth in Common and are universally opposed to the same things, but we rarely talk about this, perhaps we are afraid we will lose our distinct identity as Sikhs.The truth is you can call yourself anything but have you realised the truth?
 
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Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
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Meaning of Life

Original thread by Ben Bet Beh partially recreated below by Ambarsaria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Bet Beh
Please give me the who, what , when, where, why, and how from a Sikh perspective.
Thanks!
- Ben

Ben ji,
Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the post, but it would help us more if you shared you own perspective first so that we can interact from both sides.

Will be eagerly waiting for your response.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
I come from a Catholic Christian background. The way Catholic Christians would answer these questions would be as follows (these are short for the sake of brevity):
Who gives us the meaning of life? Answer: Jesus Christ, the son of God. Jesus is the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity (three persons in one God. The three persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
What is the meaning of life? Answer: To love God with all our heart, mind, and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself. Those who do this will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
When does the meaning of life become accomplished? Answer: At the end of our life we will be judged by God based upon our good and bad actions.
Where does the meaning of this life bring us to? Answer: For those who do the will of God, they will be united with God in Heaven. For those who do not, they will be separated from God in Hell. These destinations are permanent and unchangable.
Why is there meaning in this life? Answer: God desires to share in His creative work. He allows us to participate in creation. He allows us to chose whether or not we want to be a part of who He is.
How do we achieve the desired will of God regarding the meaning of life? Answer: Our actions in this life determine where you will be in the next life (whether Heaven or Hell).
- Ben
Ben Bet Beh ji,
Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

You write:
Quote:
I come from a Catholic Christian background. The way Catholic Christians would answer these questions would be as follows (these are short for the sake of brevity)
For me, a Christian is who worships Jesus. Simply put. Otherwise, Christianity becomes a polytheism rather than Monotheism with hundreds of thousands of denominations which also include the Catholic church
Quote:
Who gives us the meaning of life? Answer: Jesus Christ, the son of God. Jesus is the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity (three persons in one God. The three persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
Who is not a Christian is called a non- believer by your religion and is bound for Hell and will be thrown in the lake of fire.

Whereas, in Sikhi we all come from one light, irrespective of our hue,creed or faith and no one is bound for Hell because such thing is just a fear factor to lasso the followers together.

Another Abrahamic religion of which Christianity is part of is Islam which calls non-believers Kafirs/infidels and has the similar concept of hatred and disdain as Christianity does because the fact is that there is one umbilical cord of all three Abrahamical religions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam.
Quote:
What is the meaning of life? Answer: To love God with all our heart, mind, and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself. Those who do this will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
What is God? Please describe him/her/it. Why do you need to love your God with all your heart, mind and strength? The latter shows that the Christian concept of God is weak and hence demands all this "love" from us. Why can't this God instill all those things you mentioned in us? Doesn't he have all the power to do that as a good father, as the omnipotent God?

How can you love your neighbour who may not be a Christian when your God tells you that he/she is a non- believer and bound for Hell and will be thrown in the lake of fire? In other words, killed mercilessly. So, don't you think "love thy neighbour" is a farce and fallacy when we know our neighbour will be thrown in Hell whom we are supposed to love?

Where are Heaven and Hell located? Could you give me their locations through Google maps or any other way which is convenient for you?

Why would all loving God make a place like Hell for his own children? Where are his good parenting skills.

There is no Hell or Heaven in Sikhi because these concepts are based on subjective Truths which are man made not objective/ relative Reality that surrounds us.

In Sikhi, we are all children of one God irrespective of our hue, creed or faith and everyone has the right to seek him/her /it, the way they wish to as long their ways give them the tools to breed goodness within so that their actions, not their beliefs can make them God loving through sharing. That is why Sikhi is not God fearing as most of the dogmatic religions are rather than God loving.
Quote:
When does the meaning of life become accomplished? Answer: At the end of our life we will be judged by God based upon our good and bad actions.
In Sikhi we are responsible for each and every action we take here and now. We are responsible for our actions in this life.

To be judged after life is one more fallacy based on subjective dogmatic truth rather than objective reality and it contradicts another Christian doctrine which is,"we reap what we sow". How can we know what we have reaped when we have become dust to dust?

Has anyone come back in your religion to tell you how he/she was judged and what he/she reaped after death?

In Sikhi, we reap what we sow here in this life.
Quote:
Where does the meaning of this life bring us to? Answer: For those who do the will of God, they will be united with God in Heaven. For those who do not, they will be separated from God in Hell. These destinations are permanent and unchangable
.

What is the will of God? Why would your God be so demanding?Once again, God that demands that his will should be fulfilled seems like a weakling rather than all knowing and omnipresent. The omnipotent God does not demand but instills goodness in his children as a responsible father.

"United with God in Heaven"? Do you mean the God you serve is not omnipresent? Why can't we unite with him here on this beautiful Earth of ours?

"Separated from God in Hell"? So, you do admit that God you serve is not omnipresent hence people will perish in Hell because your omnipotent God is not able to instill goodness in them as a good father.

Why is your God so punishing and evil if I may say so? According to your own admission, your God is not a good loving father but rather a dead beat dad. Why is that?

In Sikhi, Ik Ong Kaar (ONE SOURCE of ALL there is) is not evil, vengeful jealous but all loving. Ik Ong Kaar is not a punisher when we do anything wrong which we often do but an embracer and a forgiver. Ik Ong Kaar lifts us up when we fall which happens frequently and gives us a pat on our backs by encouraging us to do it right the next time. After all, isn't that the true learning process and the real meaning of life?
Quote:
Why is there meaning in this life? Answer: God desires to share in His creative work. He allows us to participate in creation. He allows us to chose whether or not we want to be a part of who He is.
Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you mean by the above. Does the God you serve have desires? I thought only mortal human beings had that. Can you please elaborate the above?
How do we achieve the desired will of God regarding the meaning of life? Answer: Our actions in this life determine where you will be in the next life (whether Heaven or Hell).

So, do you mean there is a belief in reincarnation in Christianity?

In Sikhi, there is no such thing.

Thanks for the indulgence.

Hope to hear and learn from this lively interaction. I am sure we can find the meaning of life together in this manner.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
Quote:Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
For me, a Christian is who worships Jesus. Simply put.
Yes, that would be an accurate statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Who is not a Christian is called a non- believer by your religion and is bound for Hell and will be thrown in the lake of fire.
This is too simplistic. For example, Catholics believe non-believers could be saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Whereas, in Sikhi we all come from one light, irrespective of our hue,creed or faith and no one is bound for Hell because such thing is just a fear factor to lasso the followers together.
Is there a concept of evil in Sihk religion? Are there consequences for when people commit evil actions in this life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Why can't this God instill all those things you mentioned in us? Doesn't he have all the power to do that as a good father, as the omnipotent God?
He does instill all of those things in us. He does not force us to accept those things that are in us however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
How can you love your neighbour who may not be a Christian when your God tells you that he/she is a non- believer and bound for Hell and will be thrown in the lake of fire? In other words, killed mercilessly. So, don't you think "love thy neighbour" is a farce and fallacy when we know our neighbour will be thrown in Hell whom we are supposed to love?
Those who followed Jesus asked him who our neighbor was. Jesus responded that anyone in need is our neighbor whether he/she is a Christian or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Why would all loving God make a place like Hell for his own children? Where are his good parenting skills.

There is no Hell or Heaven in Sikhi because these concepts are based on subjective Truths which are man made not objective/ relative Reality that surrounds us.
God does not force goodness on people, he offers it to us freely and we are free to reject that goodness. How does the concept of goodness in people from God work in Sihk religion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
In Sikhi, we are all children of one God irrespective of our hue, creed or faith and everyone has the right to seek him/her /it, the way they wish to as long their ways give them the tools to breed goodness within so that their actions, not their beliefs can make them God loving through sharing. That is why Sikhi is not God fearing as most of the dogmatic religions are rather than God loving.
I like this concept to a degree. Yet, does this then imply that it does not matter whether someone is a Sihk since it is a belief system?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
In Sikhi we are responsible for each and every action we take here and now. We are responsible for our actions in this life.
Are there consequences for being irresponsible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Has anyone come back in your religion to tell you how he/she was judged and what he/she reaped after death?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
"United with God in Heaven"? Do you mean the God you serve is not omnipresent? Why can't we unite with him here on this beautiful Earth of ours?

"Separated from God in Hell"? So, you do admit that God you serve is not omnipresent hence people will perish in Hell because your omnipotent God is not able to instill goodness in them as a good father.
It appears from these statements that the difference between Christianity and Sihkism is that Christians believe we have a choice to follow the will of God or reject it if we want to, whereas Sihks believe that God will instill the goodness in us and there really is no choice of doing good because the good will ultimately come to the individual person. Does this sound accurate of Sihk belief?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Why is your God so punishing and evil if I may say so? According to your own admission, your God is not a good loving father but rather a dead beat dad. Why is that?
Perhaps Sihk's do not see God as father? How do Sihk's view their relationship with God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you mean by the above. Does the God you serve have desires? I thought only mortal human beings had that. Can you please elaborate the above?
Christians believe God is knowable. We believe that in each person has within him or her self an aspect of the almighty. This includes desires, among other things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
So, do you mean there is a belief in reincarnation in Christianity?
There is no such teaching in Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Hope to hear and learn from this lively interaction. I am sure we can find the meaning of life together in this manner.
Thank you for the challenging questions. I appreciate your perspective as I try to understand yours. Peace.
Ben ji,
Guru Fateh

Thanks for the response. The word is SIKH. No offence taken but as it has been misspelled often, I felt the need to get your attention.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Who is not a Christian is called a non- believer by your religion and is bound for Hell and will be thrown in the lake of fire.

Your response:
Quote:
This is too simplistic. For example, Catholics believe non-believers could be saved.
What do you mean it is too simplistic? You mean there is an enhanced interrogation program? . j/k. The fact remains the same that all non- believers are thrown in the cauldron of fire. Your Bible says that. If you disagree with that, then please explain.

Secondly, saved from what, why, how and what for? The fact of the matter is that, salvation is only needed where love is absent. It is sad to notice that this dogmatic God wants his followers to be sinners, hence in trouble, so he becomes the only one who could save them from the ill traits called sins which are instilled by the same omnipotent God to start with. That is why perhaps he is called the Saviour because he relishes that title after putting his followers in trouble so they can rush back to him and beg for being saved.

Nice self-fulfilling prophecy for the blind followers of the religion, it seems

.In Sikhi there is no such carrot and stick fear factor. All who do good deeds are"saved" irrespective of any one's religion. Sikhi is not a dogmatic religion like Christianity and other religions which are fenced by their own doctrines concocted on subjective truths.

Sikhi is a pragmatic way of life and all humans have the same right because goodness is innate in all of us. Religions act like catalysts in how to take the best out of it.

This is the reason that the Sanctom Sanctorum of Sikhi called Harmander Sahib in the city of Amritsar in Punjab has four doors to invite peoples from all directions, cultures, classes and religious beliefs. 70,000 free meals are served daily to all who visit and the kitchen is open 24-7. All the work is done by the volunteers because Sikhi instills selfless service in all. One can also stay for free in any of our Gurdwaras, as our religious places are known as ( Guru's- Teacher's door).

One can get a free meal and a place to stay for a couple of days in all Gurdwaras around the world no matter what religion one belongs to.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Whereas, in Sikhi we all come from one light, irrespective of our hue,creed or faith and no one is bound for Hell because such thing is just a fear factor to lasso the followers together.
Quote:
Is there a concept of evil in Sihk religion? Are there consequences for when people commit evil actions in this life?
First of all, your response has nothing to do with what I posted. what do you understand about what I posted above and what is your opinion about it?

Please explain the concept of evil in your religion so I can understand where you are coming from in order to respond in the right way and if there is such thing as evil then only omnipotence is responsible for that as it is for everything. However, I will reserve my comments on this after hearing from you.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Why can't this God instill all those things you mentioned in us? Doesn't he have all the power to do that as a good father, as the omnipotent God?
Quote:
He does instill all of those things in us. He does not force us to accept those things that are in us however.
Are you trying to say that the God you serve is not omnipotent because omnipotence is responsible for everything?

It is like saying that your God instills the scent in a rose but does not force it to have the perfume, which is not possible and makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
How can you love your neighbour who may not be a Christian when your God tells you that he/she is a non- believer and bound for Hell and will be thrown in the lake of fire? In other words, killed mercilessly. So, don't you think "love thy neighbour" is a farce and fallacy when we know our neighbour will be thrown in Hell whom we are supposed to love?
Quote:
Those who followed Jesus asked him who our neighbor was. Jesus responded that anyone in need is our neighbor whether he/she is a Christian or not.
Where did Jesus say that? Please quote him for me from the Bible.

Secondly, love is not capable of breeding non-believers who are bound to Hell by the commandment of your own God. Love does not work in this fashion. Only hatred and disdain do_One can not have it both ways.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Why would all loving God make a place like Hell for his own children? Where are his good parenting skills.

There is no Hell or Heaven in Sikhi because these concepts are based on subjective Truths which are man made not objective/ relative Reality that surrounds us.
Quote:
God does not force goodness on people, he offers it to us freely and we are free to reject that goodness. How does the concept of goodness in people from God work in Sihk religion?
I am sorry to say but it seems you do not understand the meanings of omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, the traits of your God. Please check the meanings for your own clarification. God with these traits does not need to force anything on any one and no one is free to reject anything. If what you said were true, then your God has none of the mentioned traits and hence not needed for anything.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
In Sikhi, we are all children of one God irrespective of our hue, creed or faith and everyone has the right to seek him/her /it, the way they wish to as long their ways give them the tools to breed goodness within so that their actions, not their beliefs can make them God loving through sharing. That is why Sikhi is not God fearing as most of the dogmatic religions are rather than God loving.
Quote:
I like this concept to a degree. Yet, does this then imply that it does not matter whether someone is a Sihk since it is a belief system?
I am glad you like the concept so do all the Sikhs and also many non Sikhs who know something about Sikhi. Any hue, creed or faith means just that. All and no one is excluded.

Hence, Sikhi is not a belief system as a matter of fact but a pragmatic way of life to seek and live a truthful life. Truth stands on its own. It does not need any belief system. Only make believe things need it.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
In Sikhi we are responsible for each and every action we take here and now. We are responsible for our actions in this life.
Quote:
Are there consequences for being irresponsible?
As responsibility has consequences so does irresponsibility. Remember, we reap what we sow.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Has anyone come back in your religion to tell you how he/she was judged and what he/she reaped after death?
Quote:
Yes.
Can you please elaborate your response? Who, when, where and with concrete proofs of your contention?

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
"United with God in Heaven"? Do you mean the God you serve is not omnipresent? Why can't we unite with him here on this beautiful Earth of ours?

"Separated from God in Hell"? So, you do admit that God you serve is not omnipresent hence people will perish in Hell because your omnipotent God is not able to instill goodness in them as a good father.
Quote:
It appears from these statements that the difference between Christianity and Sihkism is that Christians believe we have a choice to follow the will of God or reject it if we want to, whereas Sihks believe that God will instill the goodness in us and there really is no choice of doing good because the good will ultimately come to the individual person. Does this sound accurate of Sihk belief?

No, you are incorrect in your assumptions. First of all you have no choice to follow. If you did, your God would not have created Hell and Heaven as punishment and reward.

Your religion is based on fear for your God, and hatred and disdain for those who do not have the same belief system as yours and your God has promised that those who do not obey him the way he wants them to, will perish in hell.

In Sikhi, yes, Ik Ong Kaar (One Source of All there is) instills goodness in all human beings. It depends on the individual how one uses or misuses this goodness instilled.

The DNA of all human beings consists of these five ill traits. Kaam(Lust), Krodh(Anger), Lobh(Greed), Moh(Worldly gluttony), Ahankar(Ego).

Sikhi calls the above ill traits as thieves that rob us from the goodness instilled in us. Sikh scripture called the Guru Granth gives us the tools and teaches us how to lasso them and use them to our advantage as we can not get rid of them. Thus, turn them into traits.

In order to do this, the religions play a big part in it. They become the catalysts which make us change these ill traits into traits. After all this is all energy and how to use this energy in a positive manner is the duty of a religion to teach.

For example, one can either kill someone with a lead pencil or draw like Leonardo da Vinci. The same tool and the same energy is used in both. The difference is that the former is used for doing bad and the latter for good.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Why is your God so punishing and evil if I may say so? According to your own admission, your God is not a good loving father but rather a dead beat dad. Why is that?
Quote:
Perhaps Sihk's do not see God as father? How do Sihk's view their relationship with God?
Sikhi sees Ik Ong Kaar as Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, Best Friend. Allow me to explain this a bit further. As Ik Ong Kaar is not a deity like in other religions including Christianity, it can be called anything as it is not a being but Creative Energy that envelopes all there is, both organic and inorganic.

In Sikhi: It is hard to meet the Creator of the Universe and beyond, Ik Ong Kaar's form is immeasurable, inaccessible and unfathomable. Ik Ong Kaar is all-pervading everywhere.

Ik Ong Kaar is above all formless and indescribable, so sublime as to be totally beyond human powers of recognition, description, or conception.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you mean by the above. Does the God you serve have desires? I thought only mortal human beings had that. Can you please elaborate the above?
Quote:
Christians believe God is knowable. We believe that in each person has within him or her self an aspect of the almighty. This includes desires, among other things.
Ok, Thanks, but in your earlier posts you said your God has desires which is a trait in the mortals.

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
So, do you mean there is a belief in reincarnation in Christianity?
Quote:
There is no such teaching in Christianity.

Then, what does this early post of yours mean if it is not reincarnation?
Quote:
How do we achieve the desired will of God regarding the meaning of life? Answer: Our actions in this life determine where you will be in the next life (whether Heaven or Hell).


What does one become in one's next life according to Christianity?

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
Hope to hear and learn from this lively interaction. I am sure we can find the meaning of life together in this manner.
Quote:
Thank you for the challenging questions. I appreciate your perspective as I try to understand yours. Peace.
Thanks and likewise.

Regards.

Tejwant Singh
Tejwant Singh Ji,Quote " Please explain the concept of evil in your religion so I can understand where you are coming from in order to respond in the right way and if there is such thing as evil then only omnipotence is responsible for that as it is for everything. However, I will reserve my comments on this after hearing from you."Please forgive me Ji but I must say you have answered most of the questions in a pharisaical manner and the quote below was a splendid example of how to delay in answering a question instead of being straightforward and answering.
He asked you what the Sikh concept was and you started a Christian to Sikh theology comparison!or a "my philosophy is better than yours one?"

Sinner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinner
Tejwant Singh Ji,Quote " Please explain the concept of evil in your religion so I can understand where you are coming from in order to respond in the right way and if there is such thing as evil then only omnipotence is responsible for that as it is for everything. However, I will reserve my comments on this after hearing from you."Please forgive me Ji but I must say you have answered most of the questions in a pharisaical manner and the quote below was a splendid example of how to delay in answering a question instead of being straightforward and answering.
He asked you what the Sikh concept was and you started a Christian to Sikh theology comparison!or a "my philosophy is better than yours one?"

Sinner ji,

Guru Fateh.

For the time being, the interaction is being taken place between Ben & I and through his comments he seems to be enjoying it as I am.

If you have anything constructive to add to the subject being discussed, then please feel free to do so as any one else can. The more the merrier in this learning process.

If you do not have anything to add, then please enjoy reading it. No one needs an arbitrator here because no one is having a dispute, but to the contrary. Ben & I are both learning from each other and I hope to learn more through this lively discussion.

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh
This is my call on the entire matter. Ben Bet Beh ji began the thread, identified as an adherent to Christianity, asking about the Sikh perspective on the meaning of life.. Taken at face value, it was a legitimate question and topic. After all SPN is a Sikh forum. A little later he offered the Christian perspective in contrast to his original question. That automatically places this thread into the category of a conversation that will compare/contrast points of various religions on some basic questions. In fact the thread is now an interfaith conversation although it did not seem to be intended as that when it began. Therefore, it is completely acceptable for anyone to propose counterarguments, Sikh or otherwise, without having to be placed on the defensive.

The implication of course is that no one should feel the need or the obligation to place all religions on a level plane stating that all worship the same God, or are on the same spiritual journey. Only recently I read the work of the well known Roman Catholic apologist, writer and philosopher, G. K. Chesterton who found this idea to be the source of moral and religious mischief. He also did not support the idea that the ultimate spiritual destination was for humankind to merge with the almighty. In fact he trashed that idea. Perfectly consistent with his own religious beliefs. He did not excuse himself from debate. I would infer he would therefore tolerate debate on the other side of this question. Why should Tejwant be silent when Chesterton never was? For now carry on. If anything morphs into proselytizing, deletions and more will occur, as violations of TOS.

I am moving the thread to Interfaith Dialogs.
Spnadmin
Ben Bet Beh ji I have taken your questions with your original answers and stated my understanding from a Sikh perspective based on what I know. It is as follows,

BBB: Who gives us the meaning of life? Answer: Jesus Christ, the son of God. Jesus is the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity (three persons in one God. The three persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Ambarsaria: The understanding of creation gives us the meaning of life. However our teachings and Guru ji's emphasized the infiniteness of creation and futility of knowing all. Hence for Sikhs meaning of life is learned through understanding but still more to learn all the time.

BBB: What is the meaning of life? Answer: To love God with all our heart, mind, and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself. Those who do this will inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Ambarsaria: Fundamental in Sikhism is living in consonance with creation all around. One is more able to do so throughout life by developing an ever better understanding.

BBB: When does the meaning of life become accomplished? Answer: At the end of our life we will be judged by God based upon our good and bad actions.

Ambarsaria: In Sikhism, there is no end checkpoint to flag the completion of understanding the meaning of life. Beginning and end of life are just transformational stages within the creation we are part of. There is no judgement day rather a continuous checkpoints during living through one's interaction with humanity and rest of creation all the time.

BBB: Where does the meaning of this life bring us to? Answer: For those who do the will of God, they will be united with God in Heaven. For those who do not, they will be separated from God in Hell. These destinations are permanent and unchangable.

Ambarsaria: Since there is no end point and the life is ever learning, the process brings about better living through understanding so over time you have balance that is like a stage of bliss to be in consonance. Hell and heaven are not recognized or espoused in Sikhism and creator is not considered a judge rather creator gives all a leeway to work with rest of creation. One's actions could lead to dire or some or no consequnces depending on one's interaction with others including rest of creation. Creation being transformational we will become dust to dust and part of other(s) life, elements, etc., as and when.

BBB: Why is there meaning in this life? Answer: God desires to share in His creative work. He allows us to participate in creation. He allows us to chose whether or not we want to be a part of who He is.

Ambarsaria: Sikhism does not define a meaning in any or all life. We are party to creation and through our understanding we will achieve happy and consonant living with others and rest of creation. We are part of creation which is forever transformational and the complete understanding of creator or creation is beyond anyone.

BBB: How do we achieve the desired will of God regarding the meaning of life? Answer: Our actions in this life determine where you will be in the next life (whether Heaven or Hell).

Ambarsaria: Our actions are not a promise of anything after death. There is no concept or belief of body or soul re-incarnation.

Hoping above is in line with your expectations. Be happy to dialog further with all as appropriate.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
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Ambarsaria ji

I thank you for your efforts in reconstructing a portion of some original threads from your document files. These threads: Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion, Meaning of Life, Un-named Path, and If you study an orange, etc. were merged earlier today as a single thread. My deletion of the merged thread is regrettable. And I apologize. Thank you sinner ji for contributing to a recreation of the thread, Disturb us Lord and If you study an orange, as well.

Now I have merged these new threads under the previous title of Un-named Path. So all spiritual reflections are in a single thread, and moved to the Leisure section of the forum, per my decision earlier today.

spnadmin
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,380
5,678
Ambarsaria ji
to create
I thank you for your efforts in reconstructing a portion of some original threads from your document files. These threads: Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion, Meaning of Life, Un-named Thread, and If you study an orange, etc. were merged earlier today as a single thread. My deletion of the merged thread is regrettable. And I apologize. Thank you sinner ji for contributing to a recreation of the thread, Disturb us Lord,as well.

Now I have merged these new threads under the previous title of Un-named Path. So all spiritual reflections are in a single thread, and moved to the Leisure section of the forum, per my decision earlier today.

spnadmin
spnadmin ji for your reference and if it helps anyone I recreated it based on Google Cache from the following URL which I believe takes it back 3 days or so,

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8z7YLr8u_DgJ:www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/36919-meaning-of-life.html+the+meaning+of+life+sikh+philosophy&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

I used the words in quotes in Google to search for this thread "the meaning of life sikh philosophy"

May be others can do the same for threads of their choice but I found this thread has good discourse.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

spnadmin

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I could see them in the cache. I think on my end when copying the posts from the deleted thread, which I could see in my cache, to the newer thread, as far as the server software was concerned, these were non-existent. It looks as if you copied them to a word document and then posted; whereas, I was attempting a mass move of posts. Well you got the good dialog going again. I know that Tejwant Singh will be happy about this, too. Thanks so much.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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I could see them in the cache. I think on my end when copying the posts from the deleted thread, which I could see in my cache, to the newer thread, as far as the server software was concerned, these were non-existent. It looks as if you copied them to a word document and then posted; whereas, I was attempting a mass move of posts. Well you got the good dialog going again. I know that Tejwant Singh will be happy about this, too. Thanks so much.
Yes I copied to word and then to notepad as I could not copy properly from word to the spn site with all kind of formatting issues. So I decided to keep content versus saving formatting.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
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In the Self
qyrI bKs n mytY koeI siqgur kw idlwsw ]2]
No one can erase Your Blessings; the True Guru has given me this assurance. ||2||
||2|| nwmu iDAwiein suK Pl pwiein AwT phr AwrwDih ]
Those who meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, obtain the fruits of peace.
 
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Ambarsaria

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qyrI bKs n mytY koeI siqgur kw idlwsw ]2]
No one can erase Your Blessings; the True Guru has given me this assurance. ||2||
||2|| nwmu iDAwiein suK Pl pwiein AwT phr AwrwDih ]
Those who meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, obtain the fruits of peace.
Sinner ji thanks for highlighting this shabad. I will try to interpret it with my understanding in "Gurmat Vichar" sometimes in the future. It is very popular and heard Kirtan of the same many a times. Perhaps with superficial and convenient understanding as though it is related to Karma or Kismet.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
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In the Self
Veer Ji, I was reading that page, when the thread got deleted ,seemed very apt ,I did not search for it ,sometimes there is such a thing as an inconvenient truth ,is vichaar in itself enough,can we think our way through Gurbani without faith to the one who created thought,what if vichar is contaminated by our attachment to Maya and does not realisation of the true principle of each page of Gurbani overide our subjective vichar of the line .Perhaps it is realising ,which gives life it's meaning.
 

Harry Haller

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Sinner Veerji

How can give up Maya unless one is alone, and not responsible for others? Especially if the ones we are responsible for still embrace Maya, surely it is better to put Maya into perspective, no?

I am pretty sure we have already established that the 5 thieves are not there to be smitten, but like bleach, to be used with wisdom and when needed
 

spnadmin

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Here some questions to consider Harry ji?

Are we to give up Maya?

Did the Gurusahibhan reject Maya? Or did they say Maya is real?

Can we give up Maya, if Maya is the way we make sense of, encounter, the natural order of life as we live it on the planet, in our limited ways?

Is it the giving up of Maya, or is it taking a different perspective on Maya, that the shabads ask us to consider?

This pauree gives some insight into the answer. Pauree 1 from Japji Sahib.


ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
सोचै सोचि न होवई जे सोची लख वार ॥
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
चुपै चुप न होवई जे लाइ रहा लिव तार ॥
Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār.
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
भुखिआ भुख न उतरी जे बंना पुरीआ भार ॥
Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār.
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
सहस सिआणपा लख होहि त इक न चलै नालि ॥
Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl.
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
किव सचिआरा होईऐ किव कूड़ै तुटै पालि ॥
Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl.
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
हुकमि रजाई चलणा नानक लिखिआ नालि ॥१॥
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||
 

Harry Haller

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ok now I feel like a small child at school.....

I dont know miss, I will have to look it up and put my homework in later :happymunda:
 

Harry Haller

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Spnadminji

You have no idea how much the wife of your granthi has inspired/affected my thinking, before I make an utter fool of myself (again) could you help me out here given my thoughts on her at the time.....
 

spnadmin

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Sure I will do that!

I wanted to add that our Gurus were all married men. They had children. They were betrayed by some of their offspring and they were supported by others. They were surrounded by the politics of the daramsala and the palace. They knew all about Maya and how real it is. So these our Gurus were not strangers to your feelings. :whatzpointsing: :whatzpointsing: :whatzpointsing: :whatzpointsing: :whatzpointsing: :whatzpointsing: :whatzpointsing: :whatzpointsing: :whatzpointsing: :whatzpointsing:
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Here some questions to consider Harry ji?

Are we to give up Maya? NO

Did the Gurusahibhan reject Maya? Or did they say Maya is real? They said it was real

Can we give up Maya, if Maya is the way we make sense of, encounter, the natural order of life as we live it on the planet, in our limited ways? We can but we would be ascetics

Is it the giving up of Maya, or is it taking a different perspective on Maya, that the shabads ask us to consider? A different perspective

This pauree gives some insight into the answer. Pauree 1 from Japji Sahib.
OK i did have some help, do I get an A
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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OK i did have some help, do I get an A
Harry Haller ji as a self appointed :)noticemunda:) lesser qualified and less mannered substitute teacher, I give you an A+.

But remember you will have hard time recalling such Kindergarten class grades later on in life and your schooling peacesign.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

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