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Hard Talk Taking One Liners Out Of Context From Gurbani To Allow Intellectual Independence?

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Hard Talk Taking One Liners Out Of Context From Gurbani To Allow Intellectual Independence?

Original

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Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please elaborate with your wonderful background as a barrister how we can do this at SPN and I am sure all here at SPN would like you be the flag bearer of this homogenisation by writing the rules based on Gurmat ideas so they can be utilised here.

Thanks.
Gurfateh Phaji
...don't think utilisation is possible because SPN has this youth-centric culture that has an extremely short attention span and ponders to only a very narrow demographics..Homogenisation is fundamentally about the relationship between organisms and their environments brought about by cooperation and not competition. An egalitarian culture is a prerequisite for a level playing field to foster homogenisation and that's never going to happen because of personal prejudices.

All in all, slowly but surely Waheguru will continue shaping SPN from strength to strength.

Much obliged
 

Tejwant Singh

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Gurfateh Phaji
...don't think utilisation is possible because SPN has this youth-centric culture that has an extremely short attention span and ponders to only a very narrow demographics..Homogenisation is fundamentally about the relationship between organisms and their environments brought about by cooperation and not competition. An egalitarian culture is a prerequisite for a level playing field to foster homogenisation and that's never going to happen because of personal prejudices.

All in all, slowly but surely Waheguru will continue shaping SPN from strength to strength.

Much obliged
Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for explaining the meaning of homogenisation. I would not have known it otherwise. I am sure you know it is a process of blending different things/ideas to reach the goal you have in mind.

Having said that, I have no idea what you mean by the above. Please elaborate your thought for the youth-centric culture of SPN for a member like me with an extremely short attention span. Please base your thoughts on SGGS, our only Guru.

Thanks.
 
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Original

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I want to thank you for unmasking your Hindutva slowly.
..to the contrary in fact, I want to thank you for actually seeing the wood from the trees.
Please do not take this in a negative manner. We are what we are no matter what we pretend or intend to be.
..whatever takes your fancy Sir, I'm glad to be of some use !
Just one request though. Please do not mix your Hindu fairy tales of Rama and Sita with Sikhi. It is demeaning to the myth that so many believe in as yourself the way you have gallantly shown above for which I am thankful to you.
..when and where possible I'll be mindful. I'll document this for a rainy day, it might just be handy in the bigger scheme of things when freedom of expression is the subject matter at SPN. Thank you -
Is "ram-kar" above the same as ramkar in the Shabad by Guru Arjan mentioned above?
..it is Sir ! He who contests proves - over 2 u !
Lastly, as requested before please provide the English translation of the Shabad/s for the non Gurmukhi reading people here.
...any particular that you have in mind ?

Regards
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for posting

"Total Cessation Of The Transmigratory State". I am familiar with it.

Even this article does not agree with your idea of transmigration that you believe in. The article's title even disagrees with your own stance of transmigration.

Am I reading it right?
"The Gurbani as well as other Indian scriptures indicate the death of the material body does not mean everything is finished. They say that the bundle of memories or energy move on to the next field of experiences. But we mortals (the Jeevaa: unenlightened or ignorant individual beings) are mentioned not to remember all of this. In the state of Enlightenment or Pure Consciousness, however, there is said to be no further transmigration."

This is very clear it is not speaking about mere states of mind in a physical sense.
 

Harry Haller

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"The Gurbani as well as other Indian scriptures indicate the death of the material body does not mean everything is finished. They say that the bundle of memories or energy move on to the next field of experiences. But we mortals (the Jeevaa: unenlightened or ignorant individual beings) are mentioned not to remember all of this. In the state of Enlightenment or Pure Consciousness, however, there is said to be no further transmigration."

This is very clear it is not speaking about mere states of mind in a physical sense.
well the first line of your link states:

The purpose of the Gurbani (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, SGGS) is the absolute cessation of the vicious cycle of repeated suffering or transmigratory state.

This is also quite clear!
 

Tejwant Singh

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Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

"Original, post: 207313, member: 14400"]..to the contrary in fact, I want to thank you for actually seeing the wood from the trees.
No, I am not. Trust me. But it is OK to believe in Hindutva if one fancies that like it seems you do.

when and where possible I'll be mindful. I'll document this for a rainy day, it might just be handy in the bigger scheme of things when freedom of expression is the subject matter at SPN. Thank you -
Why this reluctance? It is raining here in Las Vegas and also in London. Why wait? Why not now?

I would like to also clarify about your wrong notion about SPN. Here in your own words, "it might just be handy in the bigger scheme of things when freedom of expression is the subject matter at SPN".

Originalji, I have no idea how many Sikh forums do you visit on this vast internet. One thing I can assure you that SPN is the only freedom of expression based site since its inception and this freedom of expression made me become part of this wonderful forum not long after its inception because I loved the freedom here. I used to write at Sikhchic.com,Sikhnet.com,Learning Zone among others. Some of my articles can still be found there. I stopped doing that because of the very thing you mentioned-Freedom of expression, which is absent in those sites in my opinion.

Having said that, there is always room for improvement. Please help us make this site even more free with your vast experience and knowledge in the field. We will be thankful for your seva.


Tejwant Singh asked:
Is "ram-kar" above the same as ramkar in the Shabad by Guru Arjan mentioned above?
Original ji's response:
..it is Sir ! He who contests proves - over 2 u !
It is your duty to justify your claim first, then it is my responsibility to contest it if I wish to.

So, please use SGGS, our only Guru to prove that your claim is truthful first. I thought you knew that.

...any particular that you have in mind ?
The one you wrote it in Gurmukhi. ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਤਾਤੀ ਵਾਉ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥ ਚਉਗਿਰਦ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਾਰ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਗੈ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਦੀਆ ਏਕਾ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਏ ਤਿਨਿ ਰਖਨਹਾਰਿ ਸਭ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਭਈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਏ ਸਹਾਈ ॥੨॥੧੫॥੭੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 819}

Thanks.
 
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Harkiran Kaur

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well the first line of your link states:

The purpose of the Gurbani (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, SGGS) is the absolute cessation of the vicious cycle of repeated suffering or transmigratory state.

This is also quite clear!
transmigrate
ˌtranzmʌɪˈɡreɪt,trɑːnz-,-ns-/
verb
past tense: transmigrated; past participle: transmigrated
  1. 1.
    (of the soul) pass into a different body after death.
    "his spirit would transmigrate into another being"

    noun
    1.
    the act of transmigrating.
    2.
    the passage of a soul after death into another body; metempsychosis.

    metamphychosis:

    noun, plural metempsychoses [muh-tem-suh-koh-seez, -temp-, met-uh m-sahy-] (Show IPA)
    1.
    the transmigration of the soul, especially the passage of the soul after death from a human or animal to some other human or animal body.
 

Harry Haller

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transmigrate
ˌtranzmʌɪˈɡreɪt,trɑːnz-,-ns-/
verb
past tense: transmigrated; past participle: transmigrated
  1. 1.
    (of the soul) pass into a different body after death.
    "his spirit would transmigrate into another being"

    noun
    1.
    the act of transmigrating.
    2.
    the passage of a soul after death into another body; metempsychosis.

    metamphychosis:

    noun, plural metempsychoses [muh-tem-suh-koh-seez, -temp-, met-uh m-sahy-] (Show IPA)
    1.
    the transmigration of the soul, especially the passage of the soul after death from a human or animal to some other human or animal body.
err this is not so clear, not to me anyway, what are you saying sis?
 

Original

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Good morning Everyone

Why this reluctance? It is raining here in Las Vegas and also in London. Why wait? Why not now?
...you asked me to refrain from exhibiting certain literature and I said "I will when n where possible", end of !
I would like to also clarify about your wrong notion about SPN. Here in your own words, "it might just be handy in the bigger scheme of things when freedom of expression is the subject matter at SPN".
I don't have a wrong notion about SPN. I wish SPN success in every sense of the word success. It is because I consider SPN to be an integral part of Sikh thought, information, research, development and the future I invest my TIME. I also, consider it to be my duty to "speak-up" when and where I feel it is needed. Sikhism substance, theoretical, ideological and procedural need properly to be both constituted and administered. To do that I do keep a keen eye on all aspects of data protection and information that gets exchanged and manipulated, purely from a legislative compliant perspective. Result of which as an example, is that you asked me "not" to do something which conflicts with the freedom of expression. In other words, it restricts me from being free. That as a consequence, I observed so that a correction may need to be made by the admin team.
Originalji, I have no idea how many Sikh forums do you visit on this vast internet. One thing I can assure you that SPN is the only freedom of expression based site since its inception and this freedom of expression made me become part of this wonderful forum not long after its inception because I loved the freedom here. I used to write at Sikhchic.com,Sikhnet.com,Learning Zone among others. Some of my articles can still be found there. I stopped doing that because of the very thing you mentioned-Freedom of expression, which is absent in those sites in my opinion.
..Phaji I don't have the time to honour some of the close social ties on my phone let alone social-networking on the web. SPN is my first n probably be the last love. I'm a very private man when it comes to mixing with joe public. I enjoy unlimited freedom and the right to private life. And, as a Sikh I do my fare share of seva with best of intentions. What I write is generally met with universal concurrence and approbation, save in places where opinions differ in degree but not in principle. This has proved to me that the view I take generally of the peculiar character and claims of the times we live in, are in accordance with the feelings and the opinions of the people I stand to serve.
Having said that, there is always room for improvement. Please help us make this site even more free with your vast experience and knowledge in the field. We will be thankful for your seva.
..it's my pleasure !
It is your duty to justify your claim first, then it is my responsibility to contest it if I wish to.
Phaji, I didn't make a claim. I offered the rationale behind the construction of the poem, the scene if you like. And, I thought it nice to tell Chaz where Guru Arjun Dev Ji had travelled in order to frame it so beautifully.
 
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Harry Haller

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I don't have a wrong notion about SPN. I wish SPN success in every sense of the word success. It is because I consider SPN to be an integral part of Sikh thought, information, research, development and the future I invest my TIME. I also, consider it to be my duty to "speak-up" when and where I feel it is needed. Sikhism substance, theoretical, ideological and procedural need properly to be both constituted and administered. To do that I do keep a keen eye on all aspects of data protection and information that gets exchanged and manipulated, purely from a legislative compliant perspective. Result of which as an example, is that you asked me "not" to do something which conflicts with the freedom of expression. In other words, it restricts me from being free. That as a consequence, I observed so that a correction may need to be made by the admin team.
so that is what your role is here, that and the furthering of Hindu thinking within Sikhism, fabulous!

Originalji, do you read the Guardian?

oh and one more question, how do you feel about the role you have taken on, to have this keen eye from a legislative compliant perspective, given that you do so anonymously, for all I know you could be a 13 year old sitting in his bedroom making mischief, If you wish to take this role on, why not be a man and stop hiding behind an IP address? Surely this role is very important indeed, way too important that the person who ensures this legislative compliance could in fact be anyone.
 
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Original

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so that is what your role is here, that and the furthering of Hindu thinking within Sikhism, fabulous!
LOL..your perception, hear me roar, meow !
Originalji, do you read the Guardian?
..no, but when I did it was the telegraph and the observer on the Sunday. One of my children read the independent which at times I'd flick through and found it noteworthy !
oh and one more question, how do you feel about the role you have taken on, to have this keen eye from a legislative compliant perspective, given that you do so anonymously, for all I know you could be a 13 year old sitting in his bedroom making mischief, If you wish to take this role on, why not be a man and stop hiding behind an IP address? Surely this role is very important indeed, way too important that the person who ensures this legislative compliance could in fact be anyone.
..this is your strength, always challenging and getting the best out of a person [sometime you go OTT], which is essential for reaching the pitch of perfection of the discussion to hand [intellectual realm]. I have a very good reason to hide behind this mask [pseudo] because Sikhism spiritual isn't about who you are but rather who Waheguru is and how one can connect to it without falling at the feet of another, preserving if you like, respect and dignity of one's being. And, I feel it important to connect joe public with the word [shabd] of God then to glory hunt for fame and fortune by claiming of doing it with a signature, hence, the anonymity.
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Phaji, I didn't make a claim. I offered the rationale behind the construction of the poem, the scene if you like.
Original ji,
Good morning Everyone


...you asked me to refrain from exhibiting certain literature and I said "I will when n where possible", end of !

I don't have a wrong notion about SPN. I wish SPN success in every sense of the word success. It is because I consider SPN to be an integral part of Sikh thought, information, research, development and the future I invest my TIME. I also, consider it to be my duty to "speak-up" when and where I feel it is needed. Sikhism substance, theoretical, ideological and procedural need properly to be both constituted and administered. To do that I do keep a keen eye on all aspects of data protection and information that gets exchanged and manipulated, purely from a legislative compliant perspective. Result of which as an example, is that you asked me "not" to do something which conflicts with the freedom of expression. In other words, it restricts me from being free. That as a consequence, I observed so that a correction may need to be made by the admin team.

..Phaji I don't have the time to honour some of the close social ties on my phone let alone social-networking on the web. SPN is my first n probably be the last love. I'm a very private man when it comes to mixing with joe public. I enjoy unlimited freedom and the right to private life. And, as a Sikh I do my fare share of seva with best of intentions. What I write is generally met with universal concurrence and approbation, save in places where opinions differ in degree but not in principle. This has proved to me that the view I take generally of the peculiar character and claims of the times we live in, are in accordance with the feelings and the opinions of the people I stand to serve.

..it's my pleasure !

Phaji, I didn't make a claim. I offered the rationale behind the construction of the poem, the scene if you like. And, I thought it nice to tell Chaz where Guru Arjun Dev Ji had travelled in order to frame it so beautifully.
Original ji,

Please answer the question asked in a straight manner just like a Sikh would do as we promised to be the ones. It is as simple as that.

Here it is again?

Tejwant Singh asked:
Is "ram-kar" above the same as ramkar in the Shabad by Guru Arjan mentioned above?
Original ji's response:
..it is Sir ! He who contests proves - over 2 u !
It is your duty to justify your claim first, then it is my responsibility to contest it if I wish to.
Tejwant's request.
So, please use SGGS, our only Guru to prove that your claim is truthful first. I thought you knew that.
Thanks
 
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Original

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Sir - good evening !

Tejwant Singh asked:
Is "ram-kar" above the same as ramkar in the Shabad by Guru Arjan mentioned above?

Original answers : Yes it is, within the context used. More when I elaborate on the whole poem, if that's okay !

Much obliged
 

Original

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I think he means (and correct me if I am wrong Original Ji) That at that time and culture, was predominantly Hindu and majority of those turning to Sikhism came from Hindu background, therefore our Gurus used reference to Hindu concepts in Gurbani in order to explain context.

This however does not mean that it has to be 100% one way or or the other though... as in, it doesn't mean that ALL Hindu concepts were condemned, nor does it mean we are "just an offshoot" of Hinduism either. Certainly SOME Hindu concepts were condemned, those that do not have any value in progressing us spiritually. Like useless ritual (what is the point of going through useless ritual when we can just go withint ourselves to find God)? And Idol worship (what use is worshipping a FORM, or a reproduction of what we THINK is God's form, when God is everywhere and in everything?) But this doesn't mean that every single concept in Hinduism was condemned. Truth can be found everywhere and bits of it can be found in every religion. So just because we share some concepts in common, does not mean we are an 'offshoot'. But yes, Original Ji I believe was referencing how Hinduism would have been the context people could relate to in that time, when Sikhi was beginning, so that's why so much reference to it. He was not trying to say we WERE an offshoot of Hinduism.
Harkiran Ji - good morning,

Sorry for the delay in corraboratting with what you've set out to covey, but here [below] is something I've put together from previous posts of the similar kinda genre to express it as a view for the avoidance of doubt and clarity of subject matter. It is in no way to be construed as a propaganda for Hindu thought but rather, be treated as complimentary thereof for the purpose of this discussion.

Sikhism is a system of belief and as such doesn't need derogations or scholarly interpretations. It is the word of our "guru" and is therefore true. Of course, one may tailor stitch to fit for purpose in yielding personal benefit of some kind because the word is omnipresent. But otherwise, simple literal interpretations ought to be an immediate comprehension by the mind giving the words their ordinary signification, unless, when so applied they produce an inconsistency, or an absurdity or inconvenience so great as to convince the reader that the intention of the Banikar [author of SGGSJ] could not have been to use them in their ordinary signification as to mean something completely anew. And then, and only then must the mind shift to consider alternatives. That is to say, the use of acceptable sciences of interpretation. But suffice to say, that ought not to be the case because Nanak and the Banikars spoke to masses in their local dialect and the use of complex and sophisticated language would've meant defeat of the very objective they set out to achieve, that is, explaining complex concepts in simple terms.

Guru Nanak was a social reformer who dismissed Brahmnical practices on account it being too ritualistic, prejudicial, discriminative and above all meaningless. Although, he shifted from Hindu practices, he did not all together denounced Hindu ideology. The ideology surrounding birth, death, rebirth, karma, dharma and so forth are very much Hindu. Of course, we [Sikh] can sugarcoat and import theoretical alternatives to advance our disposition in light of Western thought and practice, but the fact and beauty to be found in the verses of SGGSJ remains to be rooted in Hindu ideology [Brahm, i.e. God], which resonates with an aspiring soul, an airing soul which is very much Indian [note, not Sikh]. All the Gurus and the Banikars were from sub-continent India, their pattern of thought was Indian. In light of modern advances of science and technology together with evolutionary modifications [21st Century] there can arise valid arguments to validate alternative interpretations, but insofar, the written word of SGGSJ is to be read and construed for meaning, it must in my view be read with the intent and the disposition of the writer at the time of his writing and in the era of his social being, notwithstanding, as it were, alternatives predicated by evolutionary modifications.

The point of the discussion which I am advancing is to show that Hindu thought and culture was part and parcel of an "ideal" system of the times in which the writers of SGGSJ lived. Take you for example, in a democratic society conforming to the "rule of law" [social ideal, Canada] albeit, dispassionately, but no nonetheless, obeying to the T as a social ideal. So too were the authors of SGGSJ within the confines of a system with which they had to accept as a social ideal [Hindu thought and not practice] and construct their [Sikh] idealists. Their pattern of thought and expression ought to be interpreted in the light of their environment, culture and genetic make to effect true and authentic interpretations.

Ideologies develop overtime to better survival conditions and greater good conducive ness in principle, Sikhism too, is evolving for better, but we must remain true to its founding principles and conditions.

Thank you !
 

Harry Haller

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Harkiran Ji - good morning,

Sorry for the delay in corraboratting with what you've set out to covey, but here [below] is something I've put together from previous posts of the similar kinda genre to express it as a view for the avoidance of doubt and clarity of subject matter. It is in no way to be construed as a propaganda for Hindu thought but rather, be treated as complimentary thereof for the purpose of this discussion.

Sikhism is a system of belief and as such doesn't need derogations or scholarly interpretations. It is the word of our "guru" and is therefore true. Of course, one may tailor stitch to fit for purpose in yielding personal benefit of some kind because the word is omnipresent. But otherwise, simple literal interpretations ought to be an immediate comprehension by the mind giving the words their ordinary signification, unless, when so applied they produce an inconsistency, or an absurdity or inconvenience so great as to convince the reader that the intention of the Banikar [author of SGGSJ] could not have been to use them in their ordinary signification as to mean something completely anew. And then, and only then must the mind shift to consider alternatives. That is to say, the use of acceptable sciences of interpretation. But suffice to say, that ought not to be the case because Nanak and the Banikars spoke to masses in their local dialect and the use of complex and sophisticated language would've meant defeat of the very objective they set out to achieve, that is, explaining complex concepts in simple terms.

Guru Nanak was a social reformer who dismissed Brahmnical practices on account it being too ritualistic, prejudicial, discriminative and above all meaningless. Although, he shifted from Hindu practices, he did not all together denounced Hindu ideology. The ideology surrounding birth, death, rebirth, karma, dharma and so forth are very much Hindu. Of course, we [Sikh] can sugarcoat and import theoretical alternatives to advance our disposition in light of Western thought and practice, but the fact and beauty to be found in the verses of SGGSJ remains to be rooted in Hindu ideology [Brahm, i.e. God], which resonates with an aspiring soul, an airing soul which is very much Indian [note, not Sikh]. All the Gurus and the Banikars were from sub-continent India, their pattern of thought was Indian. In light of modern advances of science and technology together with evolutionary modifications [21st Century] there can arise valid arguments to validate alternative interpretations, but insofar, the written word of SGGSJ is to be read and construed for meaning, it must in my view be read with the intent and the disposition of the writer at the time of his writing and in the era of his social being, notwithstanding, as it were, alternatives predicated by evolutionary modifications.

The point of the discussion which I am advancing is to show that Hindu thought and culture was part and parcel of an "ideal" system of the times in which the writers of SGGSJ lived. Take you for example, in a democratic society conforming to the "rule of law" [social ideal, Canada] albeit, dispassionately, but no nonetheless, obeying to the T as a social ideal. So too were the authors of SGGSJ within the confines of a system with which they had to accept as a social ideal [Hindu thought and not practice] and construct their [Sikh] idealists. Their pattern of thought and expression ought to be interpreted in the light of their environment, culture and genetic make to effect true and authentic interpretations.

Ideologies develop overtime to better survival conditions and greater good conducive ness in principle, Sikhism too, is evolving for better, but we must remain true to its founding principles and conditions.

Thank you !
Originalji

Is it true that Newton invented gravity?
 

chazSingh

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Well it doesn't... In my case you were actually the one that called the concepts I referred to as Vedic and not me. I have always maintained that they were universal concepts found in many religions... Like transmigration as one example (some people call reincarnation but I think transmigration is better descriptor).
thats the funny thing...(and i'm actually chuckling a little here)
its always harry ji that refers to it as Vedic...i don;t ever recall anyone else doing it... :)

well spoken Harkiran ji! :)
 

chazSingh

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Sure, as long as that lifetime is the lifetime of Waheguru (which has no birth nor death) and not a lifetime of a human. And since Waheguru is the only ONE that truly exists, then we can be on the same page eh?
this is beautiful...that moment i realized i was more than this human body....oh man!
now what? who am I, what am I...what was i doing before i became chaz....what will i be doing after?
when did it all start...my journey....when does it end...will it ever end...does time even come into it?

maybe i'll find out soon with Guru Ji's blessings...exciting stuff...
 

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Why can't you just do a search rather than posting same things over and over. There was a whole thread on it before!

But if you are interested in reading on it:

Total Cessation Of The Transmigratory State
because he's not interested in 'learning', for him, he thinks he already 'knows'...so he only wants you you to come back with something so as to tell you you're wrong...or to prove a point...

the reference for unlearning, relearning...is him telling you...you need to unlearn...and relearn what he thinks is the truth...
 

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