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Sikhism Pledge / ਸਿੱਖੀ ਦੀ ਕਸਮ

What are your thoughts on Sikhism Pledge?

  • 1. I believe it is worthwhile to have one and I like it as worded.

    Votes: 3 37.5%
  • 2. I believe it is worthwhile to have one, but we need to revise wording and I have posted suggestio

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • 3. I do not believe we should have one, the status-quo is fine.

    Votes: 3 37.5%
  • 4. Other and I have posted my comments or suggestions.

    Votes: 1 12.5%

  • Total voters
    8

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your posts.
Moreover I feel the word "Belief" shuld not be applicable to Khalsa.
I see a progression from a Sikh to Khalsa as follows,

  1. One always has to start with believing and so one has to believe in "Khandey dee Pahul".
  2. One has to prepare one self to take "Khandey dee Pahul".
  3. One has to take "Khandey dee Pahul".
  4. One has to practice and deliver on the vow taken per "Khandey dee Pahul".
So for me a Sikh as a minimum has to have 1. Of course Khalsa has already crossed that milestone so it is not specific to them.


If you take note of the language in Sikh Rehat Maryada it is noted why the Amrit should be taken by people of age (no young children) as and when they are ready as say per step 2 above. However step 1 is foundational for young and old who have taken Amrit or not but want to claim to be Sikhs or be so associated or counted in.


Any thoughts.



Sat Sri Akal.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your posts.I see a progression from a Sikh to Khalsa as follows,

  1. One always has to start with believing and so one has to believe in "Khandey dee Pahul".
  2. One has to prepare one self to take "Khandey dee Pahul".
  3. One has to take "Khandey dee Pahul".
  4. One has to practice and deliver on the vow taken per "Khandey dee Pahul".
So for me a Sikh as a minimum has to have 1. Of course Khalsa has already crossed that milestone so it is not specific to them.



If you take note of the language in Sikh Rehat Maryada it is noted why the Amrit should be taken by people of age (no young children) as and when they are ready as say per step 2 above. However step 1 is foundational for young and old who have taken Amrit or not but want to claim to be Sikhs or be so associated or counted in.


Any thoughts.



Sat Sri Akal.

Well I know only this that Non Amritdhari Sikhs are not treated at par with Amritdhari ones.So long this feeling would persist I find no meaning in giving any commoness in the definition. I have already stated it is all political considerations involved in the matter.

I just remember How once Raagi Jaspal Singh Ji were disallowed to do kitan in a Gurdwara because one of companion being Non Amritdhari and Non Keshdhari.

What wiuld you call a person who is Non Amritdhari,Non Keshdhari if such a person says that he believes in Amrit as Given by GuRu Gobind Singh ji.
and follows the teachings of SGGS Is Such person not a Sikh?

According to commonness of "belief" such a person should be a Sikh but Such a person is not considered as Sikh .

So the point of Belief in "Khande Dee Pahul" as Amrit has no implications for any one to be known as Sikh.

Did GuRu Gobind Singh ji first asked Sangat to "Believe " in Khande Dee PAHUL as AMRIT and thereafter initiated this.No....There was direct invitation for any one to come for this .

I personally think taking "Khande DEE PAHUL" as Amrit is a subject matter of soliciting rather than believing.This KHANDE DEE PAHUL as Amrit can not be given.it is to be solicited.

At the end I may tell that this subject matter is not a simple one .This problem is associated with several comlex factors mainly socio-political.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for elaborating.

However I do not want you to throw up your hands and say it is impossible. Suggest something or a way and alternative.

Remember my only purpose and thoughts are along the way that we need to build bridges while recognizing certain minimum commonality of values as Sikhs. Obviously such minimum qualities will be less than Khalsa but on the way from a Sikh to Khalsa.

I believe this is far too important for us to not work on and just give up. Future generations will curse us for our apathy.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Brother Onam

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Jul 11, 2012
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Gur fateh!
I like the pledge very much. The one missing element for me is a call to environmental consciousness. In the bani of Har Har it is stated that Waheguru is present in water, air and earth, and as such, they are sacred. To pollute them then is a great sin. My complaint, both in this pledge and more importantly, in sikh practice in general, is that we often neglect how crucial it is to include cherishing the Creation in our devotion. It dismays me so much when I go to various gurdwaras and see, at Langar, styrofoam plates and plastic cutlery used and then thrown away. This is the behaviour of non-believers. As children of Waheguru, it is required that our relationship with the sacred Creation is higher than the behaviour of the thoughtless; the children of doom.
Don't know how you'd include such an imperative in the pledge, but you get my point. Any religion that does not cherish water as sacred (in actual practice) is false religion. Har Har Love, Onam
 
Aug 28, 2010
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It would be great if you explained the purpose of taking this pledge.
10dh.jpg
09ht.jpg
09ax.jpg
09jh.jpg
09bh.jpg


The pledge is relevent and significant for

It helps in developing sense of belonging

It helps keeping one binding for certain commitments as per requirement
of any organisation be of any type.

Even Military personnel are required to undertake pledge for thei commitments.

But at spritual level the pledge is for the commitment with CREATOR
GuRu.(In Sikhi way of life)

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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My own thoughts are that we should celebrate our common ground, and not just for Sikhs, but for all humanity. If one were to focus on differences, even identical twins could find something not to have in common.

I have very little value for the spoken or written word. It merely captures a snapshot of the constant dialogue taking place in the brain. What we speak or write tends to be the more palatable and socially acceptable portion of this dialogue.

We all make pledges of all sorts of descriptions, some Sikhs pledge to read more bani, go to Gurdwara more often, drink less, yank out a few less hairs, when really the only thing that matters is following the yellow brick road. Hukam shines out like silver gossamer on a clear night. Picked out by the moonlight, its gentle inviting radiance bewitches you, it is the path of truth, love and compassion.

I think Sikhism is very simple, I also think we are determined to make it as hard as possible. Know what the truth is, and follow it like a moth, to me, that is what being a Sikh is. The K's, Amrit, the rituals, traditions, prayers, paths all count for nothing unless you know in your heart what the truth is, and live your life by it.

However, if you do know, then the very facets that people get obsessed by, become the icing on the cake.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Harry veer ji thanks for your post. I appreciate your thoughts. I have some observations for discourse where I have excerpted parts of your draft that I want to comment on.
Sikhism Pledge
(draft)
.... regardless of religion and belief.
Veer ji this pledge is about Sikhs treating each other with some dignity regardless who is more complete than the other. My interest is to encourage people to see the common.

If we as Sikhs cannot do that within ourselves all the messages of us trying to do other holiness regarding the plight of others become less respected or more of a chatter. We need to get our house in order and show bigger hearts to allow and accept Sikhs with deficiencies as still Sikhs.

I aslo believe that there is greater detail needed when we claim to respect or defend other faiths. One Catch-22 comes to mind and I describe below,

Situation 1: Picture Iran and the person is sentenced to death by stoning for adultery/"being gay".

What would a Sikh do?

  1. Fight with the crowd to free the woman/"person".
  2. Respect the religious interpreters and sentence makers as having a right to practice their religion as they choose.
  3. Defend it as their right to do it as they please within their religious beliefs and defend such beliefs.

Situation 2: A young child is shot by adult people in the name of their interpretation of what is Islam and that it teaches the girls not be educated.

  1. Do we shoot back at such persons as Sikh.
  2. Do we leave it alone to be handled by their own people.
  3. Defend it as their right to do it as they please within their religious beliefs and defend such beliefs.

What would a Sikh do?

  1. Fight with the crowd to free the woman.
  2. Respect the religious interpreters and sentence makers as having a right to practice their religion as they choose.
I believe it is a very dangerous space no matter how pious the intentions. We would have to end up studying such faiths in great depth to even understand what to defend or not defend. So in this pledge it is first and foremost to be centric at least to what we know as Sikhs, may not be as perfect but still of value.

Sikhism Pledge
(draft)... By the grace of Creator

  • give me the strength
    • Creator did not hold back anything when we are created. So no point bugging him for more Powerade/Gatorade or Energy drink.
  • and determination to uphold my beliefs,
    • Determination comes from the pledge and it is not a standalone entity required or existent. Again it is part of us as we are created.
  • and to serve Creation.
    • We have no choice. Choice is only to do it well or do it poorly.
Holistically I have no issues with suggestions for,


  • Humanity is all one
o [/FONT]If you believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji it is an oxy{censored} to be emphasized as it is so strongly emphasized in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

  • Respect for the environment
o [/FONT]Again if one believes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and acts accordingly then the respect for living in consonance is so highlighted in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
o [/FONT]I appreciate Onam ji’s observations and comments along these lines


However the purpose of this pledge is to help Sikhs treat each other with greater respect and become a stronger community with a big heart. It in no way diminishes the need to treat all of any or no faith with great respect too.


Sat Sri Akal.
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Apr 11, 2007
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After giving it some thought I think if you are going to try do a pledge it should start from the position of Seva. That is where the problem is and that is where people start to argue and bicker. If you can get them to agree on the seva then you have a basis for The pledge otherwise it is pointless. Like when you go to the Gurudwara why is never a mona reading the Guru Granth Sahib and only an amritdhari things like this what has the other fellow done so wrong he gives the same respect and love to the Guru just they are not allowed to show their seva and love of gurbani to the congregation. Starting point anyway if anything can be formed it will have to have a common point otherwise their is no point in the pledge
 

Ambarsaria

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....should start from the position of Seva. ..... Like when you go to the Gurudwara why is never a mona reading the Guru Granth Sahib and only an amritdhari things like this what has the other fellow done so wrong
Veer I will take any starting point that people consider is valid. The seva reference you give above goes back to Sikh Rehat Maryada. I am not sure there is a way to address that and how best. I believe some people said it should be looked at and others said it is fine. We are at a kind of Mexican standoff and no one wants to blink!

I think it is important to break such impasse positively.

Thanks for your comments.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Apr 11, 2007
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Veer I will take any starting point that people consider is valid. The seva reference you give above goes back to Sikh Rehat Maryada. I am not sure there is a way to address that and how best. I believe some people said it should be looked at and others said it is fine. We are at a kind of Mexican standoff and no one wants to blink!

I think it is important to break such impasse positively.

Thanks for your comments.

Sat Sri Akal.

LOl this is the problem with our commnunities it is a mexican standoff, funny but sad at the same time! Look at the type of seva they all agree on and look at the seva they dont all agree on, I guess that is the best way to continue! I appriciate your efforts Ambersaria Ji, but our societies are too hard headed to agree common ground on such trivial issues. It is like people are stuck in the medieval era and modern era. The old society will drop out slowly they will try keeping it going by making their views more extream but really you can not stop development. We are sikhs and it is in our very nature to develop as humans as sikhs to improve it is like any child fights with there mother and father for the reform, but the parents will not listen, brother it is a common myth that things were better in the past, if they were new socities would not estabilish new orders and reform would not happen, certain things we will look at with romantic view on how things were better then but realisticly we need to stop living in past look at the present look at the here and now! Was the mughal rule better for sikhs? The way you may get the older order to realise it is to make them realise that change, and reform is just a natural law of nature you cannot change it or stop it unless you have an understanding parent and child, in the house of god that is how things should be, a bit like 2 + 3 = then you get the answer 5, the 2 represents the old thinkers, the 3 represents the new thinkers and the + represents the symbol sikhism and = answer is the Guru Granth Sahib. Now we have the formula it is getting the answer that they all agree on? Hopefully the answer of peace and love comes above all other thought processes, and not the number 5!
 
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Harry Haller

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Veer ji this pledge is about Sikhs treating each other with some dignity regardless who is more complete than the other. My interest is to encourage people to see the common.

Apologies, this is more of a pledge on how to deal with fellow Sikhs, so my post is largely redundant!

If we as Sikhs cannot do that within ourselves all the messages of us trying to do other holiness regarding the plight of others become less respected or more of a chatter. We need to get our house in order and show bigger hearts to allow and accept Sikhs with deficiencies as still Sikhs.

Agreed

  • give me the strength
    • Creator did not hold back anything when we are created. So no point bugging him for more Powerade/Gatorade or Energy drink.
  • and determination to uphold my beliefs,
    • Determination comes from the pledge and it is not a standalone entity required or existent. Again it is part of us as we are created.
  • and to serve Creation.
    • We have no choice. Choice is only to do it well or do it poorly.

Help me find the strength
and determination to uphold my beliefs
and to serve Creation well

:)
 

Brother Onam

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Jul 11, 2012
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Ishna ji,
This was my feeling too. When you go out of your way to make everybody feel at home, you've lost the identity. Sikhs are a most holy people throughout history. The actual definition of 'holy' or 'sacred', is "separate or set-apart", which is to say, separate or set-apart from the profane or the mundane.
Having a body of Sikhs is powerful only if it is distinct and set-apart from general mankind, who, let's face it, are by and large weak and destructive and confused and generally without real guidance. Otherwise you wouldn't have a planet that's dying from pollution and unending wars and strife.
Point being, when you water down the definition of what it means to be Sikhi (even to the point of wanting to include atheists), you lose the power and purpose. Guru Gobind Singh intended to make a distinct and separate people when instituting amrit and the 5 K's.
 
Apr 11, 2007
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Ishna ji,
This was my feeling too. When you go out of your way to make everybody feel at home, you've lost the identity. Sikhs are a most holy people throughout history. The actual definition of 'holy' or 'sacred', is "separate or set-apart", which is to say, separate or set-apart from the profane or the mundane.
Having a body of Sikhs is powerful only if it is distinct and set-apart from general mankind, who, let's face it, are by and large weak and destructive and confused and generally without real guidance. Otherwise you wouldn't have a planet that's dying from pollution and unending wars and strife.
Point being, when you water down the definition of what it means to be Sikhi (even to the point of wanting to include atheists), you lose the power and purpose. Guru Gobind Singh intended to make a distinct and separate people when instituting amrit and the 5 K's.

Onam ji, it is very well saying what you say, but their is one fundamental big flaw with your idea! You saying that the others are not sikhs does not eliminate them from proclaiming themselves to be sikhs! If a sehajdhari wants to call himself a sikh, a nirankari and everything else under the sun, then he will do, they may not be baptised sikhs but if they proclaim to be a sikh who are we to stop them! I can not see Guru Gobind Singh Ji or any other guru cutting off someone's head for proclaiming to be the divotee of the Guru's Shabad regardless!
 

Brother Onam

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Bhagatsingh ji,
My dear brother, in my journey through this life I've learned (I've walked numerous spiritual paths), that religions tend to begin in pure holiness and then tend to become mundane in the real life of the general population. This is just human nature; to maintain the real holiness inside of the faith is a result of strong deliberation. As such, behind most religions as presently represented in current society, if we really seek, we find something closer to genuine Sacred Truth. Christianity, for instance, as walked by Yeshua (Jesus) in Palestine in his time was wildly different than what we know as "Christianity" today; much closer to a genuine holiness.
The point I'm making, is that we, as living creatures on this Earth, were placed here by a loving God and provided a blessed and beautiful planet, exquisitely designed to nurture us and the rest of the family of Life. Whatever our belief system, if we are true believers, our lives would be an ongoing ardaas to the Lifegiver. Above and beyond what our teachings or beliefs are, if we are really children of the Most High, our lives will reflect constant gratitude.
Look at this world: we want pure water when we are thirsty, when we want to bathe a newborn baby, when we want to cook, when we want to prepare amrit, even if we want to make a gin and tonic; everybody wants pure water. But this sacred resource, this timeless precious blessed resource, we pollute it. Every river is used to carry away sewage and industrial waste and agricultural poisons. Every sea is a cheap trash-dump and toilet. And now, folly of follies, even scientists are confirming great parts of the vast oceans themselves are now dead and devoid of either fish or plant life, while islands of plastic waste the size of whole countries are being discovered churning together in parts of the oceans where currents have gathered trash into 'landmasses' of garbage. I recently read that scientists had realized on some beaches fully a quarter of the 'sand' is really plastic waste, ground fine by the motion of the waters; too fine to retrieve, but just right to lead to epidemics of cancers and toxic fish etc., who live in this filth. This we have done to the blessed water from Above.
We all want fresh air. If we are working in a dirty place or there is rottenness or foul smells, we love to open the windows and let in fresh air. If a child is sick we want them to breathe fresh air. If there is chemical production or engine exhaust, we want fresh air. Everybody loves fresh air. Yet we pollute it, through every motor car, every jet flying, every factory, every time we spraypaint something or burn plastics, or produce styrofoams or use a leafblower or a motorcycle or whatever. Cities around the world are covered in thick, poisonous hazes of smog. This is what we do to the blessed, life-giving air from Above.
We, all living things, want pure foods. If we are feeding a baby or a child, or cooking a nice feast, or just craving a mango or some orange juice, we want pure food. But the soil we pollute. I've traveled a lot, yet I have not yet seen a country where people don't throw plastic trash all on the ground, and in so-called third-world countries, this can amount to a carpet of toxic plastic trash everywhere. There I see heaps and mounds of garbage everywhere, sometimes ever-growing, sometimes burned in acrid toxic fires, sometimes buried in the sacred soil. But never diminishing. This is how we treat the sacred soil.
In the bani of Har Har, it is stated that the Great Giver gives, and we take so much, we get tired taking. This is reality but it is not spiritual life. We take the mango and the coconut from the tree, and in exchange we pollute both the soil and the rain the tree wants. We take the pure water from the river, and in exchange we run-off our chemical wastes into the rivers.
My point, my dear brother, is that if we are children of Har Har, whatever profession of faith comes out of our mouths, our life on this blessed planet would reflect gratitude. Living creatures, including many human cultures, have existed on this blessed Earth for thousands of years in a relationship with the Creation where their presence did not spell destruction of their habitats or environments. Now, there is another spirit governing a people that, wherever they find a foot-hold on this Earth, things begin to get diseased and die. So the challenge as I see it, is to be aware of this distinction. It seems that whatever we profess, our relationship to Waheguru is reflected in whether we are, in effect, contributers of healing or contributors of doom. I don't need to tell you, this world is full of people convinced of their holiness or of their being 'saved'. But we believe in Har Har Rae and gratitude and peace-with-the-Creation is the real religion.
Sorry about the many words.
 
Apr 11, 2007
351
262
Bhagatsingh ji,
My dear brother, in my journey through this life I've learned (I've walked numerous spiritual paths), that religions tend to begin in pure holiness and then tend to become mundane in the real life of the general population. This is just human nature; to maintain the real holiness inside of the faith is a result of strong deliberation. As such, behind most religions as presently represented in current society, if we really seek, we find something closer to genuine Sacred Truth. Christianity, for instance, as walked by Yeshua (Jesus) in Palestine in his time was wildly different than what we know as "Christianity" today; much closer to a genuine holiness.
The point I'm making, is that we, as living creatures on this Earth, were placed here by a loving God and provided a blessed and beautiful planet, exquisitely designed to nurture us and the rest of the family of Life. Whatever our belief system, if we are true believers, our lives would be an ongoing ardaas to the Lifegiver. Above and beyond what our teachings or beliefs are, if we are really children of the Most High, our lives will reflect constant gratitude.
Look at this world: we want pure water when we are thirsty, when we want to bathe a newborn baby, when we want to cook, when we want to prepare amrit, even if we want to make a gin and tonic; everybody wants pure water. But this sacred resource, this timeless precious blessed resource, we pollute it. Every river is used to carry away sewage and industrial waste and agricultural poisons. Every sea is a cheap trash-dump and toilet. And now, folly of follies, even scientists are confirming great parts of the vast oceans themselves are now dead and devoid of either fish or plant life, while islands of plastic waste the size of whole countries are being discovered churning together in parts of the oceans where currents have gathered trash into 'landmasses' of garbage. I recently read that scientists had realized on some beaches fully a quarter of the 'sand' is really plastic waste, ground fine by the motion of the waters; too fine to retrieve, but just right to lead to epidemics of cancers and toxic fish etc., who live in this filth. This we have done to the blessed water from Above.
We all want fresh air. If we are working in a dirty place or there is rottenness or foul smells, we love to open the windows and let in fresh air. If a child is sick we want them to breathe fresh air. If there is chemical production or engine exhaust, we want fresh air. Everybody loves fresh air. Yet we pollute it, through every motor car, every jet flying, every factory, every time we spraypaint something or burn plastics, or produce styrofoams or use a leafblower or a motorcycle or whatever. Cities around the world are covered in thick, poisonous hazes of smog. This is what we do to the blessed, life-giving air from Above.
We, all living things, want pure foods. If we are feeding a baby or a child, or cooking a nice feast, or just craving a mango or some orange juice, we want pure food. But the soil we pollute. I've traveled a lot, yet I have not yet seen a country where people don't throw plastic trash all on the ground, and in so-called third-world countries, this can amount to a carpet of toxic plastic trash everywhere. There I see heaps and mounds of garbage everywhere, sometimes ever-growing, sometimes burned in acrid toxic fires, sometimes buried in the sacred soil. But never diminishing. This is how we treat the sacred soil.
In the bani of Har Har, it is stated that the Great Giver gives, and we take so much, we get tired taking. This is reality but it is not spiritual life. We take the mango and the coconut from the tree, and in exchange we pollute both the soil and the rain the tree wants. We take the pure water from the river, and in exchange we run-off our chemical wastes into the rivers.
My point, my dear brother, is that if we are children of Har Har, whatever profession of faith comes out of our mouths, our life on this blessed planet would reflect gratitude. Living creatures, including many human cultures, have existed on this blessed Earth for thousands of years in a relationship with the Creation where their presence did not spell destruction of their habitats or environments. Now, there is another spirit governing a people that, wherever they find a foot-hold on this Earth, things begin to get diseased and die. So the challenge as I see it, is to be aware of this distinction. It seems that whatever we profess, our relationship to Waheguru is reflected in whether we are, in effect, contributers of healing or contributors of doom. I don't need to tell you, this world is full of people convinced of their holiness or of their being 'saved'. But we believe in Har Har Rae and gratitude and peace-with-the-Creation is the real religion.
Sorry about the many words.

Onam Ji, the processes you are talking about in the above is of over indulgence, the waste is a nessesity as well as the purity, it is keeping it in balance that is what the whole process of life is about. Without the waste from the animals and humans their would be no manure for the soil, and without the purity of the rain water their would be no water to feed the plants they are both necessary for the seed and plant and life to grow!
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
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Dec 21, 2010
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Onam ji thanks for your posts. Whereas the intent of the thread was "to create greater kinship among all Sikhs complete and incomplete" I value out of the box thinking by yourself, Harry Haller ji and Parma ji as may be a pause that gives other angles to achieve objectives.

Without digressing, Onam ji I do not know if you had a chance to read some other posts regarding our relation to other creation at spn. I see the strongest message out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the following,

"understanding all that is around and resultant consonant living"

Again and again Guru ji emphasize the common among all that we are part of. Again and again they emphasize that in a practically, fulfilling life is the one that shows our delivery of results for the gift we are of creator. These results are of highest joy, glory and value in consonant living. The emphasis is not on achieving some static state but forever learning and doing and living with greater wisdom that one so gains.

Sat Sri Akal.


 
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Aug 28, 2010
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I am greatly impressed by the reference word Har Har for the
CREATOR being used by Onum ji.
Really a great reference and the Best one as envisaged in SGGS

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

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