Look up the word renounce to get the definition. Then apply it to your hair quote. It'll make things clearer
Sikhism And Tattoos
- Thread starter Neutral Singh
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Look up the word renounce to get the definition. Then apply it to your hair quote. It'll make things clearer
BhagatSingh
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Make things clearer for you?
well, renounce means to give up, disown, etc. I hope that helps.
When a person renounces trying different looks what happens to the hair on the body? The hair grows to a certain lenght then stops.
BhagatSingh
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Or they just shave it off or even leave it alone, which results in dreadlocks.
Shaving it is still a different look. In order it to be not a different look one must be born with a shaved head otherwise it is not renouncing everything in the since of hair and still is trying a different look.
BhagatSingh
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so ur saying we should all keep dreadlocks?
Now lets get back to Tattooes and piercings. As they fit into trying different looks they are rituals.
BhagatSingh
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Hahaha, ok...
Nice definition of a ritual!
Let's burn all dictionaries! :happy: That's how we Sikhs handle things around here! :}{}{}:
Hahaha, ok...
Nice definition of a ritual!
Let's burn all dictionaries! :happy: That's how we Sikhs handle things around here! :}{}{}:
You can burn whatever you like, but the facts are there and by this response i take it you have nothing else suitable to say about this conversation, for this is your way of just to mock what i say. Too bad this is what you have to come down too.
Bhagat ji
I may be getting to the bottom of my confusion. And it is one of those problems where logic plays a role and translations may or may not cloud the fundamentals of logic. Help me out here
There are 4 possible scenarios if we examine rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, or body piercing, etc. side-by-side with spiritual understanding. Here they are.
1. Person A engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) and does not obtain spiritual understanding.
2. Person B engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) but does obtain spiritual understanding.
3. Person C does not engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) but does obtain spiritual understanding.
4. Person D does not engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc.) and does not obtain spiritual understanding.
If Person B and Person C obtain spiritual understanding, it does not matter that one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. and the other one did not. It makes no difference whatsoever.
If Person A and Person D do not obtain spiritual understanding, once again it does not matter whether one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc. and the other did not. The end result is the same.
Gurbani says over and over again: The only thing of true importance, the only thing that matters is obtaining spiritual understanding (enlightenment).
Renouncing rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. does not affect enlightenment one way or the other.
So Kabeer is saying give up (renounce), renounce practices that accomplish nothing of true importance. He is saying: Substitute the "supreme essence of the Lord." Nowhere in Gurbani does it say that one must renounce these things. Kabeer is not saying this either. And Gurbani does not say that rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc get in the way of obtaining spiritual understanding.
I may be getting to the bottom of my confusion. And it is one of those problems where logic plays a role and translations may or may not cloud the fundamentals of logic. Help me out here
There are 4 possible scenarios if we examine rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, or body piercing, etc. side-by-side with spiritual understanding. Here they are.
1. Person A engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) and does not obtain spiritual understanding.
2. Person B engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) but does obtain spiritual understanding.
3. Person C does not engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) but does obtain spiritual understanding.
4. Person D does not engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc.) and does not obtain spiritual understanding.
If Person B and Person C obtain spiritual understanding, it does not matter that one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. and the other one did not. It makes no difference whatsoever.
If Person A and Person D do not obtain spiritual understanding, once again it does not matter whether one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc. and the other did not. The end result is the same.
Gurbani says over and over again: The only thing of true importance, the only thing that matters is obtaining spiritual understanding (enlightenment).
Renouncing rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. does not affect enlightenment one way or the other.
So Kabeer is saying give up (renounce), renounce practices that accomplish nothing of true importance. He is saying: Substitute the "supreme essence of the Lord." Nowhere in Gurbani does it say that one must renounce these things. Kabeer is not saying this either. And Gurbani does not say that rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc get in the way of obtaining spiritual understanding.
- Jun 7, 2006
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aadji
the line between spiritual understanding and hallucinations is very thin
the line between spiritual understanding and hallucinations is very thin
- Jun 7, 2006
- 1,323
- 145
<<When a person renounces trying different looks what happens to the hair on the body? The hair grows to a certain lenght then stops.>>
same with nails....if you don't cut them, they curl themselves and stop interfering
also
why do people tie their uncut hair in different ways?
any kind of different dresses are efforts to look different. specially different color turbans, or different styles of turbans
same with nails....if you don't cut them, they curl themselves and stop interfering
also
why do people tie their uncut hair in different ways?
any kind of different dresses are efforts to look different. specially different color turbans, or different styles of turbans
BhagatSingh
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Actually, no the nails will keep growing and will keep interfering unless they are removed. Since us humans don't use our hands the way we used to, which were what the nails were designed for.
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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Nice post, Aad jiBhagat ji
I may be getting to the bottom of my confusion. And it is one of those problems where logic plays a role and translations may or may not cloud the fundamentals of logic. Help me out here
There are 4 possible scenarios if we examine rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, or body piercing, etc. side-by-side with spiritual understanding. Here they are.
1. Person A engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) and does not obtain spiritual understanding.
2. Person B engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) but does obtain spiritual understanding.
3. Person C does not engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) but does obtain spiritual understanding.
4. Person D does not engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc.) and does not obtain spiritual understanding.
If Person B and Person C obtain spiritual understanding, it does not matter that one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. and the other one did not. It makes no difference whatsoever.
If Person A and Person D do not obtain spiritual understanding, once again it does not matter whether one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc. and the other did not. The end result is the same.
Gurbani says over and over again: The only thing of true importance, the only thing that matters is obtaining spiritual understanding (enlightenment).
Renouncing rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. does not affect enlightenment one way or the other.
So Kabeer is saying give up (renounce), renounce practices that accomplish nothing of true importance. He is saying: Substitute the "supreme essence of the Lord." Nowhere in Gurbani does it say that one must renounce these things. Kabeer is not saying this either. And Gurbani does not say that rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc get in the way of obtaining spiritual understanding.
! You don't need my help!
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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Singh Ji, I have already explained the definition of a ritual to you. Aad ji was kind enough to post it AGAIN in this thread. Yet, you ignore them both and make up your own. I really DON'T have anything to say to that!
By burning dictionaries I meant you are completely ignoring the definition of a ritual. I was relating that to Kala Afghana where other Sikhs burned his books. It is not something I would do.
and Yes facts are there, so why are you ignoring them?
aadji
the line between spiritual understanding and hallucinations is very thin
I know. I pray.
Once again, is that how Gurbani defines a ritual????? Plus in the hair discussion I have already given why this definition is not accepted. Some like zombies just accept definitions because they are in a dictionary. But, when it comes down to Gurbani they question everything and only accept what makes sense to them. Excellent work you question Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the Guru's Hukams, but accept a dictionary as the truth.
BhagatSingh
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Lol you have "given why this definition is not accpeted"? I didn't know, I must've missed it. Either that or you are again thinking you proved something when you didn't prove anything.
Ya some do but Aad Ji and I don't.
Ya question everything! That is good advice. Accepting only what makes sense keeps you from getting lost.
Excellent you keep on accusing me of things I don't do! Isn't that against gurbani? :shifty:
You miss alot of things. Just like Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam. :yes:
Ya some do but Aad Ji and I don't.
Both of you accepted the definition of a ritual from a dictionary. Without actually looking at the definition. It's clear you accept a dictionary defining of ritual over Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and if this wasn't true none of you would have presented it for the discussion as a fact.
So it's true you accept a dictionary definition over Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji since you have not questioned the definition of a ritual from a dictionary and have questioned the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and Guru ji's Hukam. If you had questioned it then you would not have presented it in the hair discussion for you would have understood this definition is useless.
The above comments prove you have done so.
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