Sikhism And Tattoos

[BhagatSingh]

Aad ji you might as well just go bang your head in a wall. (I don't recommend it but it will be better than this.):yes:

 

[BhagatSingh]

Simply by talking to people about Sikhi and hearing it over and over again from the Sikhs.

Ya that accomplishes so much! Sikhs are d best!! :happy:We hear stuff and become better jsut like that without moving a muscle!!:roll:

Listening.Shiva, Brahma
and Indra. Listening.even foul-mouthed people praise Him. Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.​

Listening.the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 9 || Listening.truth, contentment and spiritual wisdom. Listening.take your
cleansing bath at the sixty-eight places of pilgrimage. Listening.reading and reciting, honor is obtained. Listening.intuitively​

grasp the essence of meditation. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss. Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 10 || ang 3

lis·ten (lĭs'ən) Pronunciation Key
intr.v. lis·tened, lis·ten·ing, lis·tens

1. To make an effort to hear something: listen to the radio; listening for the bell.
2. To pay attention; heed: "She encouraged me to listen carefully to what country people called mother wit" (Maya Angelou).

Obviously, there must be some thought process as we listen otherwise we are not actually listening. Listening often leads to questioning.
That said, I am pretty sure listening is not literally "listening" as shown by "Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.". "Listening" is something different here.
Guru Nanak also says knowing the truth is good but living the truth is better.


try going over your shabads and explain what point you are trying to make by posting them up. By simply posting them, you prove nothing.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Ya that accomplishes so much! Sikhs are d best!! :happy:We hear stuff and become better jsut like that without moving a muscle!!:roll:

Who ever said anything about not moving a muscle?

lis·ten (lĭs'ən) Pronunciation Key
intr.v. lis·tened, lis·ten·ing, lis·tens

1. To make an effort to hear something: listen to the radio; listening for the bell.
2. To pay attention; heed: "She encouraged me to listen carefully to what country people called mother wit" (Maya Angelou).

Obviously, there must be some thought process as we listen otherwise we are not actually listening. Listening often leads to questioning.

That said, I am pretty sure listening is not literally "listening" as shown by "Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.". "Listening" is something different here.
Guru Nanak also says knowing the truth is good but living the truth is better.


try going over your shabads and explain what point you are trying to make by posting them up. By simply posting them, you prove nothing.

Bhagat ji, stop banging your head against the wall its not helping you. But if you think it is, more power to you.

 

[Archived_Member4]

:}:
right... does anyone else see the absurdity in that statement?

After i wash my hair its combed to take all the tangles out, otherwise the hair is a mess and not clean and others do the same.

 

[BhagatSingh]

After i wash my hair its combed to take all the tangles out, otherwise the hair is a mess and not clean and others do the same.

Cleaning with soap cleans the hair,
just as Naam in this world has become very rare.
Dreadlocks are a natural state of hair,
given to man by God who is fairest of fair.
If your brain is still tangled,
how good is getting your hair untanlged?
O Bhagat, first get your brain untangled,
by meditating upon the Naam, which is both tangled and untangled.


Like someone not getting enough attention,
why do you keep making false accusations?
It is not a waste of your time,
to go over this meaningful rhyme.
Like releasing smelly gas in quick bursts,
O Bhagat, making false accusations are the worst of the worsts.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Cleaning with soap cleans the hair,
just as Naam in this world has become very rare.
Dreadlocks are a natural state of hair,
given to man by God who is fairest of fair.
If your brain is still tangled,
how good is getting your hair untanlged?
O Bhagat, first get your brain untangled,
by meditating upon the Naam, which is both tangled and untangled.


Like someone not getting enough attention,
why do you keep making false accusations?
It is not a waste of your time,
to go over this meaningful rhyme.
Like releasing smelly gas in quick bursts,
O Bhagat, making false accusations are the worst of the worsts.

Applying soap to tangled hair do not even cleasne the outer hair, for the inner hair are even more tangled and twisted. They call tangled and twisted hair natural state, but they do not know one is born without tangles. They apply rituals to their soul over and over but the naam is not know to them. Without applying the naam to the outer and inner tangles the naam is not obtained.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Applying soap to tangled hair do not even cleasne the outer hair,

uh... are you sure you are from eath? because on earth soap cleans stuff.

for the inner hair are even more tangled and twisted.

lol what is this "inner hair" you speak of?

They call tangled and twisted hair natural state,

BTW dreadlocks are clumped together, less tangled. Hair twist and bend on their own anyway.

but they do not know one is born without tangles.

One is born iwth short hair.

They apply rituals to their soul over and over

right...

but the naam is not know to them.

Not everyone who performs rituals. don't go making generalizations.

Without applying the naam to the outer and inner tangles the naam is not obtained.

LMAO :rofl!!:

 

[spnadmin]

Back to tattoos the topic of the thread. Though I cannot resist wondering about "inner tangles" nonetheless,

From BBC online In the past, tattoos used to be mainly a badge of belonging and were generally the preserve of armed forces personnel, bikers and tribes. But they are now used to express individuality and can range from the small dolphin on the ankle to huge montages of a fan's favourite pop group, or even tattoos covering most of the body.

It is only now in Western culture that tattoos are becoming an expression of individuality rather than being about belonging to a community

Katie Maggs

for the rest of the story go to this link: BBC NEWS | Health | Tattoo culture under the spotlight

When singh ji says, for some people ego is behind the decision to get a tattoo, I do not disagree..

However, Gurbani does not even mention the word tattoo. So the argument against tattoos cannot be Gurbani based, but rather based on our understanding of the connection between ego and loss of spiritual center. Not on tattoos. And false spirituality can be just as damaging to finding a one's spiritual center as tattoos. Of course discussions of the dangers of ego can be and are Gurbani based.

Is the problem tattoos? Or is the problem ego? from one who does not have a tattoo but does have an ego.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Back to tattoos the topic of the thread. Though I cannot resist wondering about "inner tangles" nonetheless,

From BBC online In the past, tattoos used to be mainly a badge of belonging and were generally the preserve of armed forces personnel, bikers and tribes. But they are now used to express individuality and can range from the small dolphin on the ankle to huge montages of a fan's favourite pop group, or even tattoos covering most of the body.

It is only now in Western culture that tattoos are becoming an expression of individuality rather than being about belonging to a community

Katie Maggs

for the rest of the story go to this link: BBC NEWS | Health | Tattoo culture under the spotlight

When singh ji says, for some people ego is behind the decision to get a tattoo, I do not disagree..

However, Gurbani does not even mention the word tattoo. So the argument against tattoos cannot be Gurbani based, but rather based on our understanding of the connection between ego and loss of spiritual center. Not on tattoos. And false spirituality can be just as damaging to finding a one's spiritual center as tattoos. Of course discussions of the dangers of ego can be and are Gurbani based.

Is the problem tattoos? Or is the problem ego? from one who does not have a tattoo but does have an ego.

First a definition of a ritual that is completely misleading gets presented to debunk tattoos are not rituals. Then this 4 scenario cases are presented to say a person can perform rituals and still find liberation, but this gets debunked by Gurbani. And now it's down to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji the word tattoo does not come up, so tattoos argument is not Gurbani based. This is completely ridiculous, anyone with even a little bit of spirituality can see how ridiculous that statements is. Gurbani clearly says stop performing these rituals liberation is not found in them, but still people want to indulge into them. Anyone that wants to keep performing this ritual can go right ahead. It's not my concern and my problem. The facts have been presented and if anyone else has anything important to say I'll reply otherwise it's a waste of time going around in circles. I'll leave you with this shabad to contemplate over.

GAUREE, FIRST MEHL: By Guru.s Grace,
one comes to understand, and then, the account is settled. In each and every heart is the Name of the Immaculate Lord; He is
my Lord and Master. || 1 || Without the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, no one is emancipated. See this, and reflect upon it.
Even though you may perform hundreds of thousands of rituals, without the Guru, there is only darkness. || 1 || Pause ||
What can you say, to one who is blind and without wisdom? Without the Guru, the Path cannot be seen. How can anyone
proceed? || 2 || He calls the counterfeit genuine, and does not know the value of the genuine. The blind man is known as an
appraiser; this Dark Age of Kali Yuga is so strange! || 3 || The sleeper is said to be awake, and those who are awake are like
sleepers. The living are said to be dead, and no one mourns for those who have died. || 4 || One who is coming is said to be
going, and one who is gone is said to have come. That which belongs to others, he calls his own, but he has no liking for that
which is his. || 5 || That which is sweet is said to be bitter, and the bitter is said to be sweet. One who is imbued with the
Lord.s Love is slandered . his is what I have seen in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. || 6 || He serves the maid, and does not
see his Lord and Master. Churning the water in the pond, no butter is produced. || 7 || One who understands the meaning of
this verse is my Guru. O Nanak, one who knows his own self, is infinite and incomparable. || 8 || He Himself is All-pervading;​

He Himself misleads the people. By Guru.s Grace, one comes to understand, that God is contained in all. || 9 || 2 || 18 || ang 229

 

[spnadmin]

Singh ji

One thing you are right about -- the discussion has been going in circles.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Gurbani clearly says stop performing these rituals liberation is not found in them, but still people want to indulge into them.

where does in Gurbani does it say "stop performing rituals"??
I want to see.

The facts have been presented

No they have not been presented so far. The shabad at the end of your post does not say "Stop performing rituals"

 

[BhagatSingh]

Since Singh ji hasn't presented his definition of ritual.
Let me post this one again.

A ritual is a set of actions, often thought to have symbolic value, the performance of which is usually prescribed by a religion or by the traditions of a community by religious or political laws because of the perceived efficacy of those actions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual
the best definition of ritual i have found.

So is a tattoo "a set of actions, often thought to have symbolic value"?

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji

One thing you are right about -- the discussion has been going in circles.

I totally agree Aad ji, after the facts were presented it did start going around in circels. Like Bhagat Singh presenting the useless definition again.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aad0002
Singh ji

With all due respect -- I would really not want to post anymore in this thread -- except now you have said,

Aad ji, I have seen this over and over and read this over and over from people, that what one does with the exterior body really does not matter.

How do you come to this conclusion? Of course actions affect one's soul! However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?

Simply by talking to people about Sikhi and hearing it over and over again from the Sikhs.


Quote:
However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?

Listening.Shiva, Brahma
and Indra. Listening.even foul-mouthed people praise Him. Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.​

Listening.the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 9 || Listening.truth, contentment and spiritual wisdom. Listening.take your
cleansing bath at the sixty-eight places of pilgrimage. Listening.reading and reciting, honor is obtained. Listening.intuitively​

grasp the essence of meditation. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss. Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 10 || ang 3

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: The self-willed manmukh performs religious rituals, like
the unwanted bride decorating her body. Her Husband Lord does not come to her bed; day after day, she grows more and
more miserable. She does not attain the Mansion of His Presence; she does not find the door to His House. || 1 || O Siblings
of Destiny, meditate on the Naam with one-pointed mind. Remain united with the Society of the Saints; chant the Name of the​

Lord, and find peace. || 1 || Pause || ang 31

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation
and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within. You may perform religious rituals, and still never
obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord. Through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, remain dead while yet alive, and the Name​

of the Lord shall come to dwell within the mind. || 1 || ang 33

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: The world is polluted with the filth of
egotism, suffering in pain. This filth sticks to them because of their love of duality. This filth of egotism cannot be washed
away, even by taking cleansing baths at hundreds of sacred shrines. Performing all sorts of rituals, people are smeared with​

twice as much filth. This filth is not removed by studying. Go ahead, and ask the wise ones. || 1 || ang39

what Aad ji said:
However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?

If all rituals are renounced then Gurbani is not used like a ritual. Then the person is attuned to Gurbani and the Sikh has devotion and understanding.

Also to clear something else up when i said,
Simply by talking to people about Sikhi and hearing it over and over again from the Sikhs.
This was a reply to Aad ji's questioning on how i came to the conclusion that some Sikhs think that the exterior body does not matter.

 

[spnadmin]

Singh ji

Please take your time and re-read my comments. I did not ask the question that you think I asked. Thanx.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Originally Posted by aad0002
Singh ji

This is what Sri Guruji says about spiritual understanding,

Nanak, the Divine Light has dawned within my mind;
I have obtained the state of Nirvana (sggs 206).

Substitute "Divine Light" for spiritual understanding in the 4 scenarios that I outlined, and yet it makes no difference. One can renounce tattoos and everything else and still not find IT. One can be tattooed all over one's body, and nevertheless find IT. Renounce what is useless because it is useless. Fill your consciousness with simran and dhyanna and the tattoo question will begin to be unimportant. The jyote is all that maters, in my humble opinion.

Aad ji, I have seen this over and over and read this over and over from people, that what one does with the exterior body really does not matter. But this is not true, for in Japji Sahib on ang 4 it clearly says one's actions affect the soul.

When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty, water can
wash away the dirt. When the clothes are soiled and stained by urine, soap can wash them clean. But when the intellect is
stained and polluted by sin, it can only be cleansed by the Love of the Name. Virtue and vice do not come by mere words;
actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul. You shall harvest what you plant. O Nanak, by the Hukam of
God.s Command, we come and go in reincarnation. || 20 || ang 4



GAUREE, KABEER JEE: Those who take their ritual baths in the evening and the morning are like the frogs in the
water. || 1 || When people do not love the Lord.s Name, they must all go to the Righteous Judge of Dharma. || 1 || Pause
|| Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams. || 2 || The wise men call
them four-footed creatures; the Holy find peace in this ocean of pain. || 3 || Says Kabeer, why do you perform so many
rituals? Renounce everything, and drink in the supreme essence of the Lord. || 4 || 5 || ang 324

GAUREE,
FIFTH MEHL: Save me, O My Father God. I am worthless and without virtue; all virtues are Yours. || 1 || Pause || The five
vicious thieves are assaulting my poor being; save me, O Savior Lord! They are tormenting and torturing me. I have come, seeking Your Sanctuary. || 1 || Trying all sorts of things, I have grown
weary, but still, they will not leave me alone. But I have heard that they can be rooted out, in the Saadh Sangat, the Company
of the Holy; and so I seek their Shelter. || 2 || In their Mercy, the Saints have met me, and from them, I have obtained
satisfaction. The Saints have given me the Mantra of the Fearless Lord, and now I practice the Word of the Guru.s Shabad. ||
3 || I have now conquered those terrible evil-doers, and my speech is now sweet and sublime. Says Nanak, the Divine Light
has dawned within my mind; I have obtained the state of Nirvaanaa. || 4 || 4 || 125 || ang 206

Through various rituals, one does not find release. Without
virtue, one is sent to the City of Death.
One will not have this world or the next; committing sinful mistakes, one comes to regret and repent in the end. He has neither
spiritual wisdom or meditation; neither Dharmic faith mor meditation. Without the Name, how can one be fearless? How can he
understand egotistical pride? I am so tired . how can I get there? This ocean has no bottom or end. I have no loving
companions, whom I can ask for help. O Nanak, crying out, .Beloved, Beloved., we are united with the Uniter. He who
separated me, unites me again; my love for the Guru is infinite. || 37 || ang 935

The shabads in bold and other two shabads say otherwise from what you have written in your 4 scenarios post and in post number 185. Person B engages in various rituals and does not find release/Divine light/spiritual understanding. Also he is without virtue for compassion is a virtue and Bhagat Kabir ji says on ang 324 “Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams.”

In both post you have said renounce what is useless/nothing of true importance and tattoos are of no importance.


Inwardly pure and Outwardly pure is a Sikhs path.

The reason why I presented these shabads:

When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty, water can
wash away the dirt. When the clothes are soiled and stained by urine, soap can wash them clean. But when the intellect is
stained and polluted by sin, it can only be cleansed by the Love of the Name. Virtue and vice do not come by mere words;
actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul. You shall harvest what you plant. O Nanak, by the Hukam of
God.s Command, we come and go in reincarnation. || 20 || ang 4

These shabads was presented because as some do say what one does with the exterior body does not really matter. The shabad in bold abolish this statement.


GAUREE, KABEER JEE: Those who take their ritual baths in the evening and the morning are like the frogs in the
water. || 1 || When people do not love the Lord.s Name, they must all go to the Righteous Judge of Dharma. || 1 || Pause
|| Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams. || 2 || The wise men call
them four-footed creatures; the Holy find peace in this ocean of pain. || 3 || Says Kabeer, why do you perform so many
rituals? Renounce everything, and drink in the supreme essence of the Lord. || 4 || 5 || ang 324

The shabad in bold has already been explained and the results can be seen in the pervious pages. I would also like to point out compassion is a virtue, for Bhagat Kabir is saying a person who loves his/her body and tries different looks does not have virtue.

Through various rituals, one does not find release. Without
virtue, one is sent to the City of Death.
One will not have this world or the next; committing sinful mistakes, one comes to regret and repent in the end. He has neither
spiritual wisdom or meditation; neither Dharmic faith mor meditation. Without the Name, how can one be fearless? How can he
understand egotistical pride? I am so tired . how can I get there? This ocean has no bottom or end. I have no loving
companions, whom I can ask for help. O Nanak, crying out, .Beloved, Beloved., we are united with the Uniter. He who
separated me, unites me again; my love for the Guru is infinite. || 37 || ang 935

The shabad in bold here are very clear, a person does not find release through various rituals and without virtue one does not find release. Now the pervious shabad says a person who loves his body and try’s different looks is not virtuous and is perfoming riuals. So now one can come to a conclusion that person B while perfoming these rituals (tattoos) has no virtue and will not find release from this world. Attach yourself to the naam and one will find release.

 

[spnadmin]

Singhji

Re-read the scenarios and think about the points I am making. You are posting shabads that are incidentally related to the issues I raised. Bye for now.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singhji

Re-read the scenarios and think about the points I am making. You are posting shabads that are incidentally related to the issues I raised. Bye for now.

Aad ji,
The shabads are not incidentally related, your scenario B has a flaw in it and Gurbani point's the mistake out.

 

[spnadmin]

These lyrics by Judy Collins are dedicated to anyone who has a tattoo or more than one tattoo, and later on found that God, the Inner Knower and the Searcher of Hearts, dwells within. And then was spiritually transformed.

Angel on My Side

Words and Music by Judy Collins
Universal Music Corp. (ASCAP)/ The Wildflowers Company (ASCAP)
(Administered by Universal Music Corp.)

There was a time when the clocks all stopped
When the world just went away,
I didn't know if it was night or day.
I didn't know if there were clouds or fire in the sky,
I didn't wanna live if I could die.
Somewhere down the line I found myself up on that road,
Where the devil led me, I would go.
I had sold my soul for pleasure,
Thinkin' it would last,
All my hopes had vanished in the past.
Lost, I was lost like a child in the dark,
Driftin' away with the tide.
God only knows how I made it back home.
I must have an angel on my side.
In the mornin' I'd wake up and shake my weary head,
Wonder where I'd been and what I'd said.
Was I on the River Styx for all eternity?
Would I drown forever in the sea?
Why did anyone keep livin', what was there to find?
I wanted just a little peace of mind.
Lost, I was lost like a child in the dark,
Driftin' away with the tide.
God only knows how I made it back home.
I must have an angel on my side.
Never had a flash of lightnin' comin' right at me,
One day I just know I woke up free.
The day was breakin', I was livin',
I couldn't tell you why,
First I laughed and then I learned to cry.
Somethin' in my heart was sayin' you can reach the sky,
You just gotta live until you die.
Lost, I was lost like a child in the dark,
Driftin' away with the tide.
God only knows how I made it back home.
I must have an angel on my side.
I must have an angel,
I must have an angel,
I must have an angel on my side.


Sat nam ji

 

[spnadmin]

It is too wonderful!

ਗੋਂਡ ॥
gonadd ||
Gond:

ਮੋ ਕਉ ਤਾਰਿ ਲੇ ਰਾਮਾ ਤਾਰਿ ਲੇ ॥
mo ko thaar lae raamaa thaar lae ||
Carry me across, O Lord, carry me across.


ਮੈ ਅਜਾਨੁ ਜਨੁ ਤਰਿਬੇ ਨ ਜਾਨਉ ਬਾਪ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਬਾਹ ਦੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
mai ajaan jan tharibae n jaano baap beethulaa baah dhae ||1|| rehaao ||
I am ignorant, and I do not know how to swim. O my Beloved Father, please give me Your arm. ||1||Pause||


ਨਰ ਤੇ ਸੁਰ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਤ ਨਿਮਖ ਮੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਿਖਲਾਈ ॥
nar thae sur hoe jaath nimakh mai sathigur budhh sikhalaaee ||
I have been transformed from a mortal being into an angel, in an instant; the True Guru has taught me this.


ਨਰ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿ ਸੁਰਗ ਕਉ ਜੀਤਿਓ ਸੋ ਅਵਖਧ ਮੈ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
nar thae oupaj surag ko jeethiou so avakhadhh mai paaee ||1||
Born of human flesh, I have conquered the heavens; such is the medicine I was given. ||1||


ਜਹਾ ਜਹਾ ਧੂਅ ਨਾਰਦੁ ਟੇਕੇ ਨੈਕੁ ਟਿਕਾਵਹੁ ਮੋਹਿ ॥
jehaa jehaa dhhooa naaradh ttaekae naik ttikaavahu mohi ||
Please place me where You placed Dhroo and Naarad, O my Master.


ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਵਿਲੰਬਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਜਨ ਉਧਰੇ ਨਾਮੇ ਕੀ ਨਿਜ ਮਤਿ ਏਹ ॥੨॥੩॥
thaerae naam avilanb bahuth jan oudhharae naamae kee nij math eaeh ||2||3||
With the Support of Your Name, so many have been saved; this is Naam Dayv's understanding. ||2||3||