Sikhism And Homosexuality

[devinesanative]

Dear friends,

When ever a problem surfaces in the society , what we human beings try to do is straight away either ignore or reject on the religious grounds or due to embarassment .

Homosexuality and Lesbianism is created to due to the societal Imbalance .

People indulging in Homo or lesb find it more easier no barriers , but the natural relationship has lots of barriers.


Though in Homo and Lesb , People see them as same sex , but inside them one of them is a Masculine and the other is a Femine character.

Because when the body demands , a person only looks for sexual pleasure , whether from same sex or opposite sex .

 

[devinesanative]

Hanging the homo or lesb , or killing them won't solve the purpose .

Its a psychological Unbalance created by lots of complex factors But it is curable.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

It is not an imblance at all but more to do with structureing of brain.

 

[ISDhillon]

Homosexuality is not an imbalance at all, and the masculine and feminine character is an objective disorder created by societies who have misconceived religious and self appropriated notions of normailty, I wonder how many people actually engage in discussion with homosexuals, my guess is little or none well I work with them and their is no difference I put my life on it.

Indy

 

[devinesanative]

sometimes those who are very close to the reality , even they sometimes fail to see the actual reality .


There have been many cases of sexual conversion out of homosexuality and lesbianism .

Some times the Homosexuals and Lesbians don't even know that one of them has the feminine character whereas the other as the Masculine Character .

 

[ISDhillon]

Sometimes the person sitting next to you will be a homosexual but you wont know cos they dont exhibit any signs of an objective disorder, I have never heard of conversions to and from homosexuality and lesbianism to hetrosexuality, but what I have seen especially in my country is that the youth do test things out and that I think is a bit silly just prioritise love in a relationship whether gay or straight. Alexander the great is a fine specimen from history who was homosexual and he never showed signs of feminininty he colonised half of earth. Vijaydeep singh Ji mentioned structure of the brain I did an alevel in psychology and their was a practice years ago that was called a labotomy it was theorised that murderers had protuding foreheads so surgeans removed that part of the brain and indeed the murderers became non-violent, but they also became zombies who never spoke and dribbled throughout the day from their mouths the study was proved to be false and the procedures were stopped. Sometimes people we just have to let people be the judge of their own reality and as I see it homosexuals infringe on no-one I therefore can see no problems with same-sex marriage. The union of souls knows no gender.

Indy

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Sometimes the person sitting next to you will be a homosexual but you wont know cos they dont exhibit any signs of an objective disorder, I have never heard of conversions to and from homosexuality and lesbianism to hetrosexuality, but what I have seen especially in my country is that the youth do test things out and that I think is a bit silly just prioritise love in a relationship whether gay or straight. Alexander the great is a fine specimen from history who was homosexual and he never showed signs of feminininty he colonised half of earth. Vijaydeep singh Ji mentioned structure of the brain I did an alevel in psychology and their was a practice years ago that was called a labotomy it was theorised that murderers had protuding foreheads so surgeans removed that part of the brain and indeed the murderers became non-violent, but they also became zombies who never spoke and dribbled throughout the day from their mouths the study was proved to be false and the procedures were stopped. Sometimes people we just have to let people be the judge of their own reality and as I see it homosexuals infringe on no-one I therefore can see no problems with same-sex marriage. The union of souls knows no gender.

Indy

Gurfateh

das used term structuring of brain which means various factor by birth,after birth in socity and other inner and outer factor bringing about some features in brain which make someone homosexual.

Das also Thanks Indy Brother Ji for giving very usefull information. About brain.

das recomend Dear DS to take note of new term called labotomy which will be usefull for both of us in study of Human brain in future.

Das again thanks Indy Ji and expect similar inputs from him in future.

 

[devinesanative]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha , Hmmmmmm....

So you have studied psychology , wonderful... Good keep it up !


Dear vijaydeep ji , you are right that structuring of brain has a series of factors as mentioned by you...

I would suggest both of you to see the movie "The Other Side of Sunday" ... Though this movie has nothing to do with homosexuality...

But some other thing , just to know how much you can understand a human being , and what you conclude out of the movie and what the movie protrays...


As you know me better , dear vijay deep ji , so please take the above suggestion in a light way , and in the spirit of discussion.


Now coming to topic...

Sometimes the parents who have given the birth to a child don't know him/her completely .

The problems we generally see our lives or in society is just the top most problem.


But behind that problems there are series of problems that gives birth to the present problem.

What we see is just the effect , but not the actual reality...

When you will deeply fire series of qustions to a problem seeker , you will find a different and amazing things .

 

[devinesanative]

hey if you know any Homosexual and lesbian , then do invite some of them to give their vital inputs .

I would like to seek enlightenment from them by seeking answers to my queries.

 

[jasi]

reference to above subjector topic all i can comments that there are many abnormality exsist in the society and among the human being we have to consider normalcy rulling al along without avoiding the minority with abnormality. we must respect their indiffrences but do not apply on the rest of societies. all our gurus and relegious teacher were very much aware of all this but motivated us to be good and praise the Almoghty.

 

[Jogindar Singh Kaur]

DevinesaNative Ji, I am a homosexual and I consider myself completely adjusted. I also do not consider "masculine" and "feminine" two mutually exclusive categories. Men and women of all kinds have both masculine and feminine characteristics in them. That is just part of being human.

Let me ask you to read this forum from beginning to end. You will find most of your answers there. Then, feel free to ask me any questions you wish. I can give you some basics here:

1. Hundreds of psychological studies done since the 1950's have shown NO pathological difference between homosexuals, bisexuals and heterosexuals. There is no difference in mental health between these groups that correlates with sexual orientation.

2. Everyone tends to think in terms of sex, but the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals is WHO THEY FALL IN LOVE WITH. Sex is of course part of that, but most homosexuals can have sex with the opposite sex. It just doesn't feel good to us because there is no emotional connection there since romantic love is absent. Do not make the mistake of thinking any sexuality is about sex only. It is not.

3. You say it is "easier" to be lesbian or gay. I thorougly disagree. Relationships are hard work, and it is no exception for the homosexual couple than it is for the heterosexual couple. In fact, I think it is much, much harder because you cannot rely on your family for advice or help. People will harass you or beat you up. You have no right to see your partner if they are in a hospital or in prison. Islamics stone homosexuals, and fundamentalist Christians have talked about killing homosexuals.

4. No one has ever been "converted" from homosexual to heterosexual. The experience of people who have gone to "ex-gay" program in the US is that 5 years after the program, 90% have had at least one homosexual relationship and the other 10% now consider themselves "bisexual" but will only have heterosexual relationships. I see conversions as nothing more than trying to conform to a strict reading of Christian dogma. Where in the Guru's beautiful visions does it say that I must conform? All God asks of me is to love Waheguruji and to love other humans, and to live the life of a householder. I think after 13 years with my partner, I can safely say that I am very much the householder.

Again, feel free to ask questions, but first read this whole thread.


Jogindar

 

[jasi]

dear lost one. i can only say my opinion that every part of body is meant to be what is it for.so now you can imagin what i mean.follow the normal fuctions of your body and mind and the teaching of our gurus so you may not committ a deeds which will make your soul abuse the funtions and put on healthy thinking.

we were born and at certain age with desires of sex and pleasure . since pleasure last few minuts and the scripture teaches us how to control if you do not want the consequences what you can see in the worldare . you can witness arround the world.

norms of any thing is very essentail for our peace of mind. lust for sex is always turns into viloance of one kind another. brings one to frusterations and other alternative to enjoy sex but leave you empty with burning desire to do it more and more.sometime committing rape or unwanted experiencs.

love is etrenal which goes beyond a sex relation and like shri Guru Nnak Dev ji preaches us that "Grisat Marg is the best to pass a journey of life" honest married and lookafter your childern and simran will bring you a peacful life.

so there no point about disscussing such issue on this pious forum sikh philospy .the society today is ignoring all the norms and the consequences happening and diseases which is killing people in the world by millions,divorce rate is as high we never seen before ,childern ware without mother and father,partners looses their loyality to each others.
use your commen sense you will get all the answers but please do not over ride the them with your desire.

may God bless you with more woisdom.
jaspi.


Against it...

1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman.

your thoughts...[/quote]

 

[ISDhillon]

Jaspi Ji,

It is evident that you have not bothered to read the whole thread your personal views should not be taken seriously by anyone it represents a myopic understanding of this issue, it is this type of vichar on social affairs we need to improve on, I would suggest you take time out and try to read and understand all the posts but by all means give a point by point rebuttal.

Use your bibek dont talk from panj chor,

ISDhillon:}--}:

 

[devinesanative]

Dear Joginder Singh Kour Ji


You are and may be right , but Homo and lesb do come in different flavours.

In India there have been many cases where one couple of lesb , ie one of the girl from that couple approached the doctor for her conversion from girl to boy .


But when doctor did her operation of first phase . She got depressed and tensed , within six months she suicided.

What would you call those , who unable to find the opposite sex , start believing themselves to be both male and female as well , and switch the roles between them , cross dressing .

 

[Jogindar Singh Kaur]

If there is anything I've learned from Gurbani, it is that God's Hukam is complex and unknowable. It is not up to me to place judgement on anyone; that is up to Waheguruji alone. The SGGS teaches that there are many paths to knowledge, and I firmly believe that one of those paths is science. It is written in the Japji (to paraphrase) "God showers humans with gifts to the point that they are tired of them." What we feel with our hearts, what we learn with our minds, these are ALL gifts of Waheguruji.

What I've learned over my years is this: one's gender and one's sexuality are two different things. I have known many transgender people who were born female or male, but live as the other gender. I've read quite a bit on the subject, and I can say that (at least here in the West) that there are two factors that help transgendered people stay mentally healthy: First, that they can live as the gender that they feel they are, and second, to be *accepted* as human beings. My suspicion is that poor young man in India probably had a lot of external pressure not to change, suffered from rejection and depression, and felt suicide was the only way out.

The complexity of our Universe only gives us a small taste of how incredible Waheguruji must be. We cannot imagine it. I cannot imagine that Waheguruji didn't make humans beings complex, also, and that this complexity teaches us much about how to love unconditionally, how to not judge other people, to practice charity and kindness where ever we go. I do not believe in "people must..." or "people should..." We as Sikhs are to avoid the 5 sins, but nowhere there does it say that you must kill yourself through depression or conformity. To thine own self be true is another truth.

Again, I must state that "lust" and "love" are two different things, Jaspiji. You are not listening to me, just rushing to judgement, convinced that your definition of kaam applies to me because my way of loving is different from yours. Kaam is not a concept to take lightly; it is basically the sexual exploitation of someone in order to selfishly satisfy a need. This runs the gamut from rape to unprotected sex to adultery. Nowhere does this definition deny two people who are in love and willing to create a life together a fulfilling sexual relationship.

 

[Yvan]

I think that would be pertinent for members to read that statement from World Sikh Organisation concerning same-sex marriages:

http://www.worldsikh.org/news/press_releases/05-01-18.htm

 

[CaramelChocolate]

I think that would be pertinent for members to read that statement from World Sikh Organisation concerning same-sex marriages:

http://www.worldsikh.org/news/press_releases/05-01-18.htm

Interesting but not very clear... it seems like they're taking a neutral stand point as to whether homosexuality is 'immoral' or not, but they are supporting gay rights on the basis of being against oppression.

 

[jasi]

sat sri akal ji. It is my understading that human being is such a mnauplating creature who has lived until today following certain morals in which one recognize felleow citizen right to live under the same morals as human being. God has blessed us with wisdom to do what is every thing meant for i our body which even animal knows where to go and how we can use God blessed place for reproductions of our being.

Now the society and charter of right respect one's choice but let us not a make an issue of getting marry and to be having all the social benefits what man and women gets.. There is no such thing exist unless we dissmantle the marriage exsitance which was solely made for further reproduction of human being.

Now when one is talking about sex or possesed drive with sex should read the litratures availble how to control your urge in sex,anger,greed,pride.

One must understand is that sex is not to do at odd places to perform .Millions of these wron doing and abnormal practices of sex are suffering with frusterations,aids,and many other diseases at epademic pace.With my experiences in the medical firld how many people I see with infection their mouth of gonoriahor G.C.

once we eliminate moral value you have a society of uncivilized people and we go back right in the begining to our start to be a civilized ,estabelishing rule and regulations.Human has learned a lot and estabelished moral values to live for, now when there is down going in our morals and , we are plagued with crises all over.broken family and millions of peple dying because of this man to man sex at imporoper places which not meant to perform this act. Even animal knows where to go.people for thier personal life style or the way they choose to live should have complete rights to live that way but it should not be overblown to the extent where childern at tender age are not mislead when they are not understading grown up .Let us work with common sense and make our choices what is best for all.

jaspi

jaspi

Interesting but not very clear... it seems like they're taking a neutral stand point as to whether homosexuality is 'immoral' or not, but they are supporting gay rights on the basis of being against oppression.

 

[therebirthofkhalsa]

Waheguruji Ka Khalsa, Waheguruji Ki Fateh.

There are many kinds of peolple on many diferent levels, acordingly, with the amounts of love, hate, open mindness or ignorance they have.
To be this good or that bad, or to be very spiritual or not very spiritual is not determine by gender or if gay or not. Maybe there is some Karma involve, who know, not us for sure.

Surelly only Waheguru knows the whole truth and if we really cared about Sikhism, our atitude would surely be a diferent one, just wondering how many of you have taken Amrit and living up to Khalsa.

Instead of debating on what is right and what is wrong, we should see how we can each become better and how we can become real, truthfull and get closer to GOD.
Spirituality is very much personal, and each do or dont do acordingly to how they live and the experience in life, so lay off, we are not the ones to judge and call out whats right or wrong.
Waheguruji will handle that and handle each of us acordingly.

Regardless of being gay or not, im sure its more important if we are loving and having tolerance towards the rest of GOD´s creation.

I have read so many post and thoughts and sincerely 90% of you havent or didnt give Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji the respect and apreciation that it deserves.
Instead of finding fault and stiring up polemic, we should work on our devotion and learn to see our True Guru as what it really is, its sad to see that you consider and see it as a simple book and put it on the same level as the bible

Sri Guru Grant Sahib is our True Guru, the embodiment of Truth, our source of Power on earth the essence of all 10 Guru, wich again is ONE in true essence. Our biggest test I believe is FAITH.

Please dont be fooled by Gurujis form and presence, Guruji is so very much aware, Guruji sees all our actions, Guruji hears and responds our prayers, Guruji is there extending its endless mercy to us, be we, we are so unfurtunate that we dont see it, but we see fault, we are missing out, because we have no faith in Guruji, and we have no faith in each other, so its so much easier to pretend that we are doing well by pointing out what we think is wrong with others.

Im 31 years old im aspiring to become Khalsa and dedicate my life to Waheguru and to spread the prescious light of Sikhism and im also gay, it took me 30 years to finally accept myself and love myself as I am.
Square minded people made it dificult for me to be happy, have self esteem and grow spiritualy as I really should have.
Because of my need of acceptance and fare of rejection I did and became what others wanted me to, and this on the long run can only harm and destroy a person. It was almost too late when I realised it.
And for you that think we are wrong or evil anyone can be and its not a matter of gay or hetero, but I believe in Karma so watch out, your next child or future child can be born gay, but then again I pray that none will take birth in a family where there is no love. Love has no requirements or rules, you either love or you dont, if you dont you are so far from it all.

Peace and love!

yours trully

T. Talwaar Singh

 

[Randip Singh]

I cannot believe our Guru's wuld discriminate against homosexuals.

I find biggotry towards homosexuals by some "Sikhs" most distasteful.


Anand Karaj is a Union of Souls, and Sikhi CLEARLY states that the SOUL is GENDERLESS. So therefore how can we condemm a relationship between two men or two women.

This nonsense about these relationships being based purely on Kaam is foolish. A Hetrosexual relationship where the party cannot have children naturally is surely based on Kaam too then?