• Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in
Jun 3, 2008
15
11
Sat Sri Akaal Ji,

Not this old chesnut again! please waheguru, spare us from our "sikh clergy"! The same repeated arguments come to the fore when this subject is debated: its against nature!, its not in keeping with gods will! adam & eve (amongst other myths and legends). Come on cyber sangat jio, lets broaden our minds, some people are left handed & some right handed, (by the way centuries ago people who were left handed were labelled as being the devils spawn)
I have to agree with Randip Singh ji, Kaam is the true enemy not ones sexual orientation. Our homosexual/lesbian sikh brothers & sisters have been forced to either live a lie or forced from Sikhi altogether. and do not forget all religions are facing the same theological dilemma. But i know Sikhi will prevail because it is based on pure logic - not ideological mumbo-jumbo (thats what the so called sikh clergy apparently believe in). The sikh clergy are just politicians (wearing of the 5 K's does not make you a khalsa, its the deeds & maryada that goes with them)- they have seats and status to protect. they will make ANY statement if they think the masses (majority) of people will agree with them. It was stated in previous posts that the soul has no gender, maybe we should re-open that debate.

bhul chuk maaf ji & gur fateh
 

Singh Balbir

SPNer
Jun 4, 2005
8
1
68
CHANDIGARH, INDIA
Any religion & particulary sikhism is not there to decide whether homosexuality is right or wrong. Enjoyment from sex is only for few minutes & many times for this enjoyment a man indulge in heinous crime - raping a girl of 2-3 yrs old. How a man will have enjoyment from sex in old age/. Enjoyment from homosexuality is madness. God has created male & female mainly for production. For animals & birds sex is only for production. If these homosexuals understand the goal of life they will not even think about homosexuality.

If we really want peace & everlasting enjoyment even at time of last breath of life then we are required to follow the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Regards.

Balbir Singh
 
Jun 3, 2008
15
11
sat sri akaal singh balbir ji,

can you please specify in which part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji it says about Homosexuality. I have so far not been able to find this through my learned friends ( by the way i cannot read gurbani so have to rely on friends)

and by the way please let us not confuse lust and love as these are two very differant things.

regards and gur fateh ji
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
55
London, UK
I would restrict my view on sexuality as per Sikh School of Thought.

In Sikhism, sexuality is seen as a husband wife relationship to further human race. Gurbani does not permit sexual indulgence leading to perversion of mind which is always atuned to sex in mind. Since Kam is one of the five vices prohibited by Sikh Gurus in Guru Granth Sahib and also it advocates relationship with your wife only " Eka Nari Jati hai" Treat other women as your daughters and sisters only. To mind mind, bound by the dictates of Sikh Rehat Maryada, sexuality in the form of homo, lisbians and trisexuallity are best avoided. Moreover they are unnatural form of sex. Even animals do not indulge in such form of sexes, though they do sex with more than one female partner.

Regards,

tejinderisnghdelhi.

All quite wrong I'm afraid Singh ji.

Animals do enagage in homosexual sex. Sex for humans is not only for procreation, but many studies show that a loving couple who have a regular and healthy sex life are closer, so it also strenghens bonds between us.

This word 'unatural'. Can you please show me any act, or anything that occours unaturaly?

Sikhi teaches that all is according to the will of God, so who are we to declare homosexuality wrong, when it obviously happens and quite naturaly to.

Try this also, choose to not belive in God or choose to find memebers of your own gender sexualy attrative, let me know how that turns out.
 
Jul 13, 2004
588
63
35
UK
I do find it extremely frustrating that people reply to a thread without even bothering to read other replies. This is a discussion forum which means people discuss with each other and reply to certain comments in order to re-establish certain opinions or have a better understanding of a subject.

I suspect that the vast majority of Sikhs who reject homosexuality on a scriptural/religious level do so because of a personal assumption about the nature of homosexuals and homosexuality, often due to personal disgust rooted in cultural/social norms, or because of lack of experience with the homosexual community. These people may walk past a gay club/bar or see some homosexuals on TV and think they know what it is all about. I bet they have never interacted with a gay person in the normal public sphere and got to know them as a person. These people are so ignorant and they are incapable to believe or realise they see loads of homosexual men and women in a daily basis.

There are some things such people may never understand due to not delving in and bothering to understand a community. Any person who believes that homosexuality is a hypersexual fixation (like a heterosexual man with a foot-fetish who needs this to be fulfilled every waking minute) is seriously deluded. Homosexuals have been persecuted throughout history and this continues into the modern day, be it from culture, society or the legal system in some countries.

For every 20 Sikh males, around 2 of them will be gay. FACT. No argument. They may be the most masculine person in the world, married, whatever, you would never even think it. Because SOCIETY and CULTURE place them in a position where they are not able to be themselves. This causes great psychological damage and often results in lact of fidelity which the wife may never discover. In the UK the law forbids trying to change people's sexual orientation, this is because of the unhealthy psychological impact that this causes on the individual.

The attempted suicide rate in the homosexual community is much higher, at 30%. I can vouch for this statisitic as a homosexual male.
The heterosexual male/female who tells us that homosexuality is abominable and lustful is obsessed with sex themselves - everyone should have sex in the way they do. This is a *******ed intrusion of people's personal lives. As long as people are having sex only with one person in their lives then it does not matter about the gender. To compare homosexuality with zoophilia or rape is hilarious because these cruel things are usually about A) power, or B) twisted sexual fantasies.
When two people engage in sex together a bonding hormone is released between them to make them close to each other, similar to that released during breast feeding. In zoophilia and rape love cannot develop, because the hormone is not produced by the other side (aspect of consent and arousal), in the same way that the hormones would not be released if a gay male were with a heterosexual woman since he would not be able to emotionally submit to her completely. Therefore sex is NOT simply for procreation it is for establishing a healthy relationship which should be with one other consenting person in one's life.

I will not post any further as people are likely to ignore what I have said and repeat previous arguments.
 

KulwantK

SPNer
Oct 31, 2007
164
40
Sat Nam,
Hmmm, you have an interesting point of view on this subject.

There has been talk of various governments secretly but actively promoting homosexuality in order to reduce populations. Notably, in some sociological studies, it has been seen that when a certain population density occurs within a given area, after a certain amount of time there can be seen to be more incidents of homosexual activities.

Some sociologists and biologists have theorized that this is actually a natural occurence, and have actually done experiments with rats in enclosed environments to see if it holds true, and evidently from the results of these experiments, it does. Of course, humans are not rats, however, it must be admitted, it does make one wonder about such things.

There are several saddening things about this whole arena. If it actually is true that various governments are secretly promoting homosexuality in order to curb population growth it then it certainly begs the question, What else are governments doing in secret to the populations? That is a huge question to ponder.

Then, of course, one would think that simply by educating people on the wisdom of being very careful about how many children they have the population would not explode so often, putting a strain on resources. Then, naturally, it all begs the question, Do government officials see populations of people as just lab rats not in cages? Then, of course, it could be postulated that using the media, government agents could be secretly fanning the flames of discrimination and hatred towards homosexuals as a good way to distract the people from seeing what shenanigans the government officials are really up to.

Regarding homosexuality: sexuality in any context is a delicate discussion, indeed. We might think about asking ourselves how we would react if our best friend/brother/sister/whomever we hold especially dear all of a sudden told us they are a homosexual. Would we love them any less? I should hope not.
To see God At All, See God In All.
Wahe Guru!
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,706
14,381
75
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
The KEY WORD IS KAAM.....and Randip Singh Ji is 110% Spot ON.

IF "Kaam" rules in a Husband wife legal socially correct, religiously sanctioned marriage..even that is to be "CONTROLLED and not let rage out of control"..IF it does rage out of control..then its RAPE !! and some countries do have legal provisions for a legally married woman to cry RAPE agaisnt her legal husband !!
SO here gain even the worldy Law recognises that we each have inidividual rights to our own bodies and no one can dictate even if there is a certificate of marriage !!

GURBANI already told us to CONTROL KAAM. Period. No need to go furtehr into tiny details...is homosex wrong..is lesbian sex wrong..is animal-human sex wrong..blah blah blah..GURU JI went to The ROOT and SAID THE ENTIRE THING...KAAM is the KEY. Keep that under "lock" !! he he self made joke.( usually we say keep it under ....lock and key !! he he )

BTW IMHO....our so called Clergy, jathedars, Granthis, Gyanis, Ragis, etc etc etc are "ancient" oxy{censored}s stuck in a time warp..they have no knowledge of Gurbani and how to relate it to Modern Society....the first thing thay bring up is Prampara..tradition..this is always done his way...BS. GURBANI is not only UNIVERSAL..it is TIMELESS...AKAAL !! It will be TRUE for ever and in ALL conditions, circumstances...BECAUSEit is LOGIC and Scientific and not simply prampara....old is gold type of warped thinking...:advocate:
 

KulwantK

SPNer
Oct 31, 2007
164
40
Dear CaramelChocolate:
Sat Nam, Ji-
Actually I am very happy you have made this post.
I have a cousin and numerous friends -both in the Sikh community and in the non-Sikh community- that are homosexual. They are dear wonderful people, and they have honored me with letting me know about this very important and intimate aspect of their lives.

Sexuality is a complex, intimate and individual thing, and to ridicule someone because they are homosexual is foolish and just pathetic to do.
 
Last edited:

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
55
London, UK
Sat Nam,
Hmmm, you have an interesting point of view on this subject.

There has been talk of various governments secretly but actively promoting homosexuality in order to reduce populations. Notably, in some sociological studies, it has been seen that when a certain population density occurs within a given area, after a certain amount of time there can be seen to be more incidents of homosexual activities.

Some sociologists and biologists have theorized that this is actually a natural occurence, and have actually done experiments with rats in enclosed environments to see if it holds true, and evidently from the results of these experiments, it does. Of course, humans are not rats, however, it must be admitted, it does make one wonder about such things.

There are several saddening things about this whole arena. If it actually is true that various governments are secretly promoting homosexuality in order to curb population growth it then it certainly begs the question, What else are governments doing in secret to the populations? That is a huge question to ponder.

Then, of course, one would think that simply by educating people on the wisdom of being very careful about how many children they have the population would not explode so often, putting a strain on resources. Then, naturally, it all begs the question, Do government officials see populations of people as just lab rats not in cages? Then, of course, it could be postulated that using the media, government agents could be secretly fanning the flames of discrimination and hatred towards homosexuals as a good way to distract the people from seeing what shenanigans the government officials are really up to.

Regarding homosexuality: sexuality in any context is a delicate discussion, indeed. We might think about asking ourselves how we would react if our best friend/brother/sister/whomever we hold especially dear all of a sudden told us they are a homosexual. Would we love them any less? I should hope not.
To see God At All, See God In All.
Wahe Guru!


Of course ji if even if any of this where true, it is more than possible nowadays for same gender couples to adopt or ahem! find other ways to have children. Why indeed a lesbian freind of mine asked if I would be willing to donate some sperm for her and her partners own endvours in this respect a few years ago.
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
55
London, UK
Dear CaramelChocolate:
Sat Nam, Ji-
Actually I am very happy you have made this post.
I have a cousin and numerous friends -both in the Sikh community and in the non-Sikh community- that are homosexual. They are dear wonderful people, and they have honored me with letting me know about this very important and intimate aspect of their lives.

Sexuality is a complex, intimate and individual thing, and to ridicule someone because they are homosexual is foolish and just pathetic to do.


And makes no logical sense at all.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,949
55
United Kingdom

I would restrict my view on sexuality as per Sikh School of Thought.


Which is that we avoid Kaam. This is sexual obsession.


In Sikhism, sexuality is seen as a husband wife relationship to further human race.


Where does it say husband and wife?

What is you cannot have children, then your relationship should be annulled and declared illegal right?


Gurbani does not permit sexual indulgence leading to perversion of mind which is always atuned to sex in mind. Since Kam is one of the five vices prohibited by Sikh Gurus in Guru Granth Sahib and also it advocates relationship with your wife only " Eka Nari Jati hai" Treat other women as your daughters and sisters only.


Wait.

In same sex relationships I have seen couples together for 30 to 40 years where they love each other. Some even have adopted children who have grown up to be heterosexual, so why would be a wife be restricted to a particular gender? After all is not gender just an outer shell? Inside our soul has no gender.

Bani says that the perfect relationship of a householder is a joining of two souls. Where does our gender come into this?

To mind mind, bound by the dictates of Sikh Rehat Maryada, sexuality in the form of homo, lisbians and trisexuallity are best avoided. Moreover they are unnatural form of sex. Even animals do not indulge in such form of sexes, though they do sex with more than one female partner.


Un-natural?

Homosexuality has been with us since the dawn of time. Why is this un-natural? If two people of the same gender have a loving relationship then how can that be Kaam? Kaam is an obsession with sex, you are assuming all homosexual behaviour is obsessive. What I have observed is more sexual obsession amongst heterosexuals.

Actually animals do have same sex sexual relations.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
 

vsgrewal48895

Writer
SPNer
Mar 12, 2009
651
663
89
Michigan
Dear Members,

I agree with Teji Ji’ s comments on insulting the source. Spiritually there is no difference between God and Guru as expressed by Guru Amardas, Guru Arjan;

>The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny.

>Let no one think that God and Guru are separate. The True Guru is the Immaculate Lord.

>There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru.

Q. Can God/Guru be disrespected by any one?

A. No

A. Guru Nanak in Raag Asa and Kabir in Raag Gauri answers the above question;

ਆਖਾ ਜੀਵਾ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ਆਖਣਿ ਅਉਖਾ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੂਖ ॥ਉਤੁ ਭੂਖੈ ਖਾਇ ਚਲੀਅਹਿ ਦੂਖ ॥੧॥ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਲੁ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ਆਖਿ ਥਕੇ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥ਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੈ ਆਖਣ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਵਡਾ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਾਟਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੨॥ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੋਗੁ ॥ਦੇਦਾ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਚੂਕੈ ਭੋਗੁ ॥ਗੁਣੁ ਏਹੋ ਹੋਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ਨਾ ਕੋ ਹੋਆ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥ਜੇਵਡੁ ਆਪਿ ਤੇਵਡ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਕੀਤੀ ਰਾਤਿ ॥ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਹਿ ਤੇ ਕਮਜਾਤਿ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਵੈ ਬਾਝੁ ਸਨਾਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥

Ākẖā jīvā visrai mar jā▫o. Ākẖaṇ a▫ukẖā sācẖā nā▫o. Sācẖe nām kī lāgai bẖūkẖ. Uṯ bẖūkẖai kẖā▫e cẖalī▫ahi ḏūkẖ. ||1|| So ki▫o visrai merī mā▫e. Sācẖā sāhib sācẖai nā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o. Sācẖe nām kī ṯil vadi▫ā▫ī. Ākẖ thake kīmaṯ nahī pā▫ī. Je sabẖ mil kai ākẖaṇ pāhi. vadā na hovai gẖāt na jā▫e. ||2|| Nā oh marai na hovai sog. Ḏeḏā rahai na cẖūkai bẖog. Guṇ eho hor nāhī ko▫e. Nā ko ho▫ā nā ko ho▫e. ||3|| Jevad āp ṯevad ṯerī ḏāṯ. Jin ḏin kar kai kīṯī rāṯ. Kẖasam visārėh ṯe kamjāṯ. Nānak nāvai bājẖ sanāṯ. ||4||3||

Chanting it, I live; forgetting it, I die. It is so difficult to chant the True Name. If someone feels hunger for the True Name, that hunger shall consume his pain. ||1||How can I forget It, O my mother? True is the Master, True is Its Name. ||1||Pause|| Trying to describe even an iota of the Greatness of the True Name, people have grown weary, but they have not been able to evaluate it. Even if everyone were to gather together and speak of It. It would not become any greater or any lesser. ||2|| That Akal Purkh does not die; there is no reason to mourn. It continues to give, and Its Provisions never run short. This Virtue is Its alone; there is no other like It. There never has been, and there never will be. ||3|| As Great as You Yourself are, O God, so Great are Your Gifts. The One who created the day also created the night. Those who forget their Creator and Master are vile and despicable. O Nanak, without the Name, they are wretched outcasts. ||4||3|| -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 9,-18 & 349-9

ਅੰਮਾਵਸ ਮਹਿ ਆਸ ਨਿਵਾਰਹੁ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਰਹੁ ॥ਜੀਵਤ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ਅਨਭਉ ਸਬਦੁ ਤਤੁ ਨਿਜੁ ਸਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਰੰਗੁ ਲਾਗਾ ॥ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਭਏ ਮਨ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗਾ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਪਰਿਵਾ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਕਰਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ਘਟ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਲੈ ਅਘਟ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ਕਾਲ ਕਲਪਨਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਮਹਿ ਰਹੈ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥ਦੁਤੀਆ ਦੁਹ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅੰਗ ॥ਮਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਰਮੈ ਸਭ ਸੰਗ ॥ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਬਢੈ ਨ ਘਟਤਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਅਕੁਲ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਏਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥੩॥ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਆ ਤੀਨੇ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਲਿਆਵੈ ॥ਆਨਦ ਮੂਲ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਾਸ ॥ਬਾਹਰਿ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ॥੪॥ਚਉਥਹਿ ਚੰਚਲ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਗਹਹੁ ॥ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਬਹਹੁ ॥ਜਲ ਥਲ ਮਾਹੇ ਆਪਹਿ ਆਪ ॥ਆਪੈ ਜਪਹੁ ਆਪਨਾ ਜਾਪ ॥੫॥ਪਾਂਚੈ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥ਕਨਿਕ ਕਾਮਿਨੀ ਜੁਗ ਬਿਉਹਾਰ ॥ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਸੁਧਾ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ਜਰਾ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖੁ ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੬॥ਛਠਿ ਖਟੁ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਛਹੂੰ ਦਿਸ ਧਾਇ ॥ਬਿਨੁ ਪਰਚੈ ਨਹੀ ਥਿਰਾ ਰਹਾਇ ॥ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਮੇਟਿ ਖਿਮਾ ਗਹਿ ਰਹਹੁ ॥ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕੀ ਸੂਲ ਨ ਸਹਹੁ ॥੭॥ਸਾਤੈਂ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਚਾ ਜਾਣਿ ॥ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਪਰਵਾਣਿ ॥ਛੂਟੈ ਸੰਸਾ ਮਿਟਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਦੁਖ ॥ਸੁੰਨ ਸਰੋਵਰਿ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਖ ॥੮॥ਅਸਟਮੀ ਅਸਟ ਧਾਤੁ ਕੀ ਕਾਇਆ ॥ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਅਕੁਲ ਮਹਾ ਨਿਧਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ਗੁਰ ਗਮ ਗਿਆਨ ਬਤਾਵੈ ਭੇਦ ॥ਉਲਟਾ ਰਹੈ ਅਭੰਗ ਅਛੇਦ ॥੯॥ਨਉਮੀ ਨਵੈ ਦੁਆਰ ਕਉ ਸਾਧਿ ॥ਬਹਤੀ ਮਨਸਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਬਾਂਧਿ ॥ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਸਭ ਬੀਸਰਿ ਜਾਹੁ ॥ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੀਵਹੁ ਅਮਰ ਫਲ ਖਾਹੁ ॥੧੦॥ਦਸਮੀ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਹੋਇ ਅਨੰਦ ॥ਛੂਟੈ ਭਰਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੀ ਤਤ ਅਨੂਪ ॥ਅਮਲ ਨ ਮਲ ਨ ਛਾਹ ਨਹੀ ਧੂਪ ॥੧੧॥ਏਕਾਦਸੀ ਏਕ ਦਿਸ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ਤਉ ਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਕਟ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ਸੀਤਲ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਭਇਆ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥ਦੂਰਿ ਬਤਾਵਤ ਪਾਇਆ ਨੀਰਾ ॥੧੨॥ਬਾਰਸਿ ਬਾਰਹ ਉਗਵੈ ਸੂਰ ॥ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਬਾਜੇ ਅਨਹਦ ਤੂਰ ॥ਦੇਖਿਆ ਤਿਹੂੰ ਲੋਕ ਕਾ ਪੀਉ ॥ਅਚਰਜੁ ਭਇਆ ਜੀਵ ਤੇ ਸੀਉ ॥੧੩॥ਤੇਰਸਿ ਤੇਰਹ ਅਗਮ ਬਖਾਣਿ ॥ਅਰਧ ਉਰਧ ਬਿਚਿ ਸਮ ਪਹਿਚਾਣਿ ॥ਨੀਚ ਊਚ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨ ਅਮਾਨ ॥ਬਿਆਪਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਸਗਲ ਸਾਮਾਨ ॥੧੪॥ਚਉਦਸਿ ਚਉਦਹ ਲੋਕ ਮਝਾਰਿ ॥ਰੋਮ ਰੋਮ ਮਹਿ ਬਸਹਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥ਸਤ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਕਾ ਧਰਹੁ ਧਿਆਨ ॥ਕਥਨੀ ਕਥੀਐ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨ ॥੧੫॥ਪੂਨਿਉ ਪੂਰਾ ਚੰਦ ਅਕਾਸ ॥ਪਸਰਹਿ ਕਲਾ ਸਹਜ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਮਧਿ ਹੋਇ ਰਹਿਆ ਥੀਰ ॥ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਮਹਿ ਰਮਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ॥੧੬॥

Ammāvas mėh ās nivārahu. Anṯarjāmī rām samārahu. Jīvaṯ pāvhu mokẖḏu▫ār. Anbẖa▫o sabaḏṯaṯ nij sār. ||1|| Cẖaran kamal gobinḏ rang lāgā. Sanṯ parsāḏ bẖa▫e man nirmal har kīrṯan mėh an▫ḏin jāgā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Parivā parīṯam karahu bīcẖār. Gẖat mėh kẖelai agẖat apār. Kāl kalpanā kaḏe na kẖā▫e. Āḏ purakẖ mėh rahai samā▫e. ||2| Ḏuṯī▫ā ḏuh kar jānai ang. Mā▫i▫ā barahm ramai sabẖ sang. Nā oh badẖai na gẖatṯā jā▫e. Akul niranjan ekai bẖā▫e. ||3|| Ŧariṯī▫ā ṯīne sam kar li▫āvai. Ānaḏ mūl param paḏ pāvai. Sāḏẖsangaṯ upjai bisvās. Bāhar bẖīṯar saḏā pargās. ||4|| Cẖa▫othahi cẖancẖal man ka▫o gahhu. Kām kroḏẖ sang kabahu na bahhu. Jal thal māhe āpėh āp. Āpai japahu āpnā jāp. ||5|| Pāʼncẖai pancẖṯaṯ bisthār. Kanik kāminī jug bi▫uhār. Parem suḏẖā ras pīvai ko▫e. Jarā maraṇḏukẖ fer na ho▫e. ||6|| Cẖẖaṯẖ kẖat cẖakar cẖẖahū▫aʼn ḏis ḏẖā▫e. Bin parcẖai nahī thirā rahā▫e. Ḏubiḏẖā met kẖimā gėh rahhu. Karam ḏẖaram kī sūl na sahhu. ||7|| Sāṯaiʼn saṯ kar bācẖā jāṇ. Āṯam rām leho parvāṇ. Cẖẖūtai sansā mit jāhi ḏukẖ. Sunn sarovar pāvhu sukẖ. ||8|| Astamī asat ḏẖāṯ kī kā▫i▫ā. Ŧā mėh akul mahā niḏẖ rā▫i▫ā. Gur gam gi▫ān baṯāvai bẖeḏ. Ultā rahai abẖang acẖẖeḏ. ||9|| Na▫umī navai ḏu▫ār ka▫o sāḏẖ. Bahṯī mansā rākẖo bāʼnḏẖ. Lobẖ moh sabẖ bīsar jāhu. Jug jug jīvhu amar fal kẖāhu. ||10|| Ḏasmī ḏah ḏis ho▫e anand. Cẖẖūtai bẖaram milai gobinḏ. Joṯ sarūpī ṯaṯ anūp. Amal na mal na cẖẖāh nahī ḏẖūp. ||11|| Ėkāḏasī ek ḏis ḏẖāvai. Ŧa▫o jonī sankat bahur na āvai. Sīṯal nirmal bẖa▫i▫ā sarīrā. Ḏūr baṯāvaṯ pā▫i▫ā nīrā. ||12|| Bāras bārah ugvai sūr. Ahinis bāje anhaḏṯūr. Ḏekẖi▫ā ṯihū▫aʼn lok kā pī▫o. Ŧeras ṯerah agam bakẖāṇ. Araḏẖ uraḏẖ bicẖ sam pėhcẖāṇ. Acẖraj bẖa▫i▫ā jīv ṯe sī▫o. ||13|| Nīcẖ ūcẖ nahī mān amān. Bi▫āpik rām sagal sāmān. ||14|| Cẖa▫uḏas cẖa▫oḏah lok majẖār. Rom rom mėh basėh murār. Saṯ sanṯokẖ kā ḏẖarahu ḏẖi▫ān. Kathnī kathī▫ai barahm gi▫ān. ||15|| Pūni▫o pūrā cẖanḏ akās. Pasrahi kalā sahj pargās. Āḏ anṯ maḏẖ ho▫e rahi▫ā thīr. Sukẖ sāgar mėh ramėh Kabīr. ||16||

On the day of the new moon, give up your hopes. Remember the God, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts. You shall attain the Gate of Liberation while yet alive. You shall come to know the Shabad, the Word of the Fearless Lord, and the essence of your own inner being. ||1|| One who enshrines love for the Lotus Feet of the Creator of the Universe - by the Grace of the Saints, her mind becomes pure; night and day, she remains awake and aware, singing the Kirtan of the God's Praises. ||1||Pause|| On the first day of the lunar cycle, contemplate the Beloved God. It is playing within the heart, has no body, and is Infinite. The pain of death never consumes that person who remains absorbed in the Primal Lord God. ||2|| On the second day of the lunar cycle, know that there are two beings within the fiber of the body. Maya and God are blended with everything. God does not increase or decrease, is unknowable, immaculate, and does not change. ||3|| On the third day of the lunar cycle, one who maintains his equilibrium amidst the three modes finds the source of ecstasy and the highest status. In the Company of the Holy, faith wells up. Outwardly, and deep within, God’s Light is always radiant. ||4|| On the fourth day of the lunar cycle, restrain your fickle mind, and do not ever associate with sexual desire or anger. On land and sea, It It self is in It self. It It self meditates and chants Its Chant. ||5|| On the fifth day of the lunar cycle, the five elements expand outward. Men are occupied in the pursuit of gold and women. How rare are those who drink in the pure essence of the God's Love. They shall never again suffer the pains of old age and death. ||6|| On the sixth day of the lunar cycle, the six chakras run in six directions. Without enlightenment, the body does not remain steady. So erase your duality and hold tight to forgiveness, and you will not have to endure the torture of karma or religious rituals. ||7|| On the seventh day of the lunar cycle, know the Word as True, and you shall be accepted by the God, the Supreme Soul. Your doubts shall be eradicated, and your pains eliminated, and in the ocean of the celestial void, you shall find peace. ||8|| On the eighth day of the lunar cycle, the body is made of the eight ingredients. Within it is the Unknowable Creator, the King of the supreme treasure. The Guru, who knows this spiritual wisdom, reveals the secret of this mystery. Turning away from the world, He abides in the Unbreakable and Impenetrable God. ||9|| On the ninth day of the lunar cycle, discipline the nine gates of the body. Keep your pulsating desires restrained. Forget all your greed and emotional attachment; you shall live throughout the ages, eating the fruit of immortality. ||10|| On the tenth day of the lunar cycle, there is ecstasy in all directions. Doubt is dispelled, and the God of the Universe is met. It is the Embodiment of light, the incomparable essence. It is stainless, without stain, beyond both sunshine and shade. ||11|| On the eleventh day of the lunar cycle, if you run in the direction of the One, you will not have to suffer the pains of reincarnation again. Your body will become cool, immaculate and pure. The God was said to be far away, but It is found near at hand. ||12|| On the twelfth day of the lunar cycle, twelve suns rise.Day and night, the celestial bugles vibrate the unstruck melody. Then, one beholds the Father of the three worlds. This is wonderful! The human being has become God! ||13|| On the thirteenth day of the lunar cycle, the thirteen holy books proclaim that you must recognize the God in the nether regions of the underworld as well as the heavens. There is no high or low, no honor or dishonor.The God is pervading and permeating all. ||14|| On the fourteenth day of the lunar cycle, in the fourteen worlds and on each and every hair, the God abides. Center yourself and meditate on truth and contentment. Speak the speech of God's spiritual wisdom. ||15|| On the day of the full moon, the full moon fills the heavens. Its power is diffused through its gentle light. In the beginning, in the end, and in the middle, God remains firm and steady.Kabir is immersed in the ocean of peace. ||16||-----Kabir, Raag Gauri Thiti, AGGS, Page, 343

Conclusion;

The only way one can disrespect God/Guru is by not following their teachings, to become a better human (Gurmukh) and carry on the life as spiritually ignorant. With out spiritual wisdom, the people worship ignorance. They grope in the darkness, in the love of duality, says Guru Nanak in Sloke Vaaran To Vadheek.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal
 

dalsingh

SPNer
Jun 12, 2006
1,064
233
London
I have no hatred of homosexuals. In fact some of the kindest, most helpful people I have met in my professional life have been gay.

That being said, it is false to say Sikhism accepts homosexuality practice amongst its adherents. The argument that no comments are made towards homosexuality implying its acceptability is wrong.

We have no business interfering with the homosexual community but to stretch the inherent liberal nature of Sikhi to say it is acceptable for Sikhs may be going too far. True, we are not preoccupied with stoning homosexuals to death unlike others but lets keep things in perspective.
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
55
London, UK
I have no hatred of homosexuals. In fact some of the kindest, most helpful people I have met in my professional life have been gay.

That being said, it is false to say Sikhism accepts homosexuality practice amongst its adherents. The argument that no comments are made towards homosexuality implying its acceptability is wrong.

We have no business interfering with the homosexual community but to stretch the inherent liberal nature of Sikhi to say it is acceptable for Sikhs may be going too far. True, we are not preoccupied with stoning homosexuals to death unlike others but lets keep things in perspective.


Then if Guru ji makes no mention of it from where do you get this idea that it is not acceptable?
 

dalsingh

SPNer
Jun 12, 2006
1,064
233
London
Then if Guru ji makes no mention of it from where do you get this idea that it is not acceptable?

Following your logic, the fact that the Gurus did not mention paedophilia and bestiality implies they are acceptable in Sikhi.

This is clearly outside values/norms being transposed on Sikhi? Where does this stop?
 

vsgrewal48895

Writer
SPNer
Mar 12, 2009
651
663
89
Michigan
“why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman.”

LAVAN & WEDDING

Laav-ਲਾਵ- means ਵਿਆਹ ਸਮੇਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੁਆਲੇ ਲਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਫੇਰਾ (ਅਗਨ-ਕੁੰਡ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ) - The circumambulation of the bride groom and bride around Guru Granth Sahib or the round. It is a symbolism to the Spiritual Wedding of an individual conscience (bride) with the Universal Conscience (Husband) in Sikh Thought or the final union during emancipation at death. Here fire god has been replaced by Word (Sabd Guru). These are the four steps towards the union, which are being symbolized during Sikh weddings, started by Guru Ramdas to replace the Hindu ritual.

First Laav teaches to embrace the righteous conduct, and renounce sinful actions, with meditation, contemplation of Naam to attain the celestial bliss.

Second Laav, the God leads you to meet the True Guru, the Primal Being. With the Fear of God, the filth of egotism is eradicated and the unstruck sound current of the Sabd resounds.

Third Laav, the mind is filled with Divine Love.

Fourth Laav, mind becomes peaceful and has found God as Guru willed. Its Name resounds and resonates. The God, my Master, blends with Its bride, and her heart blossoms forth in the Naam.
-----Guru Amardas, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page 773 & 7

Conclusion:

Sikh Laav or wedding ceremony are the teachings to progress in spirituality rather than physical intimacy of any kind.


Virinder S. Grewal
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
55
London, UK
Following your logic, the fact that the Gurus did not mention paedophilia and bestiality implies they are acceptable in Sikhi.

This is clearly outside values/norms being transposed on Sikhi? Where does this stop?


You show a lot of yourself with such words Singh.

Note I offered no logic and instead asked you a direct question. The methoed you are using in order not to answer this is well known as a 'strawman' fallacy . You attack an argument that I have not even proposed, claim it as mine and thus try to dodge the actual question I asked.

Intelectual honesty, does this not apply to us Sikhs?

I think that we can all agree that sex with children is wrong, and we can rationalise why this is so. What I ask though is why do you personly feel that homosexuality is also wrong, please rationalise this for me.
 

Rupinder.Singh

Writer
SPNer
Mar 11, 2009
47
158
Brisbane Australia
Dear all,


This is my opinion but it may be worng too because I beleive that it takes only one extra

argument to prove a right thing wrong or the other way around.

Whenever I think about homosexuality or other issues like this. I ask myself one question before coming to a conclusion.

and the question is

"Why do I think this issue ( in this case homosexuality) is against Sikhism"

And if I be true to myself

My answer would be any or all of the following:

Fear of loosing identity (heterosexual identity)
Fear of Society ( as most of it is heterosexual)
Fear of bad comments, or image (again from the society we live in)
Fear of infiltration
Sikhism refrences to Hetrosexual marriages as it leads to reproduction.
I am not sure if sikhism delists all homosexual activities as KAAM.

And now if i ask myself what Sikhism teaches me.I would answer as follows:

A state of fearless mind,
Making right decision without influence of any external forces.
Sikhism teaches about truthfulness and universal brotherhood.
Sikhism teaches about service of humanity
Sikhism teaches to stand against caste system.
Sikhism addresses individuals not groups

But most of the time we simply overlook these things in our day to day life and indulge into
other things which are very worldly.

Being homosexual or hetrosexual are worldly activities. Moreover Kaam is not just sex, it is
indulging in sexual activities with wrong or decieving intention, with an intention of causing
mental or physical damage to the other individual.

And I beleive it will be wrong to say that homosexual is all about KAAM and hetrosexual is not.
Human mind tend to develop stereotypes very quickly about topics it does not totally know about, or does not want to understand about. And I think that KAAM is the sterotype that we have developed for homosexual people.

By doing so we are unknowingly flourishing age long problem of caste system, a system that divides people based on group dynamics, based on thier ocuupational or day to day activities.

And we simply forget that Sikhism is against Caste system or the thoughts that lead to caste system in very first instance.

Moreover every individual is born with different skin color, diffrent facial structure, different body built, different tastes, different hobbies, different skills, different requirements, diffrent thought process and diffrent intresets. And it is universal truth.

Then Why do we expect every other person to think like us, be like us or act like us who are in majority. I would say it is all group consiousness, and majority of mankind suffers from it.

Now lets talk about the LAW in a country. Someone commented that a countries laws should not be amended just to satisfy the requirements of some minor group.

I ask you one question '"are not those minor group human beings, are not they citizen of country, don't they have any rights for themselves.
If your answer is no to above, then what about the Sikh individuals asking foreign countries to amend their laws to exclude them from wearing Helmut. We all know sikhs are in minority in most of the countries outside India. what will be our stand on this issue then?

Any countries' laws are made to avoid its citizens from any type of descriminitaion based on their lawful right distinctive actions or appearances. Laws are not made on the basis of majority or minority of individuals.

Laws are there to avoid conflicts and smooth running of the public system as you might all
know.

In the end I would conclude that discussing homosexual or hetrosexual does not lead to GOD. Only things that lead to GOD are truthfulness, service of humanity, universal brotherhood and a fearless and logical thought process. And this is all sikhism teaches us in a nutshell.

So please think twice before making homosexuality an issue related to sikhism. There are lot more dirty minds who can explore these issues to raise social violence for thier personal or political benefits.

Moreover there are lot more other more important issues humanity is facing above these matters, such as issue of poverty, issue of natural disasters, issue of equal oppurtunity for females and many more.

We need our mind focussed on those things.

Bhul Chuk Maaf...

Waheguru g ka khalsa, waheguru g ki fateh.
Rupinder Singh
 

❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM

Top