Sikhism And Homosexuality

[Archived_Member_19]

good questions Randip ji

as for me i believe that sexual orientation is something out of control of a person.

however as pointed out earlier... a sex depraved person, forcing himself to do "non-preferred" sexual activity ( as it happens in jails etc) is wrong.

Sex is part and parcel of life...only when it becomes a distraction to the normal balance of life or crosses the martial lines, it becomes Kaam.

some posters tried to put number to how many times... LOL

that was funny...

 

[CaramelChocolate]

however as pointed out earlier... a sex depraved person, forcing himself to do "non-preferred" sexual activity ( as it happens in jails etc) is wrong.

Well this has nothing to do with the discussion of homosexuality. Some people (not you) even like to bring in the evil of paedophilia into the discussion of homosexuality.

Sex is part and parcel of life...only when it becomes a distraction to the normal balance of life or crosses the martial lines, it becomes Kaam.

I agree. Sex for procreation is a Catholic/British influence.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

why i brought this was,

the tendency of "checking out" or "trying out" variants is wrong...

this is specific for those people, who would do anything

 

[kds1980]

Dear Friend


It seems you know really very little about What homosexuality is?
So your comments reflects the same

I hope you believe in mordern Medical Science

IT IS A FACT IN MEDICAL SCIENCE THAT NEITHER HOMESEXUALITY IS DISEASE(MENTAL OR PHYSICAL) NOR IT IS ABSOLUTELY GOVERNED BY CHOICE OF INDIVIDUAL WHO IS HOMOSEXUAL


Somebody Deprived of SEX , who indulges in Same Sex ( in case of hetero sexual ) or with child is a PREVERT and PEDOPHILE respectively and not HOMOSEXUAL

So plz first get the basics Right

If the above statement doesnot feel right get in touch with some Medical expert ( preferably Psychiatrist ) and then get it conformed

Only after You know what it is , continue commenting on in it also what your version of Sikhism allows.


In short it is just Sexual Preferance Thats differ Homosexual from Heterosexual not the excess lust or liking for body. its same for the both categories


Thanks


Jatinder Singh

Dear dr.khalsa

Today i was reading an article of a girl who was raised by lesbian parents.she said that
lesbian parents helped her to explore her sexuality and today she can proudly say that she is bisexual.could you please shed some light on this that what is exploring sexuality?
how could someone explore its sexuality if its natural.Even in this thread sherab said that he could choose to be striaght or homosexual.again if it is natural the how could someone
choose to become straight or homosexual.

Also i want to know what is bisexuality? is it also natural to be attracted to both sexes
The last report i read on bisexuality said that there is nothing such as bisexuality.either people are straight or gay.So if its true then from where bisexuality come?

 

[Sherab]

Hello all,

I have been bisexual and homosexual.

none lasted to long, however because i preferred, naturally, females.

I think a homosexual simply prefers their same gender, but i believe they could force themselves to be straight if they so chose to.

For the record, while we're on the topic, i have also battled against pedophiliic tendencies, that I no longer have, due to self control. I think the issue is whether we control our minds, or not, to follow God's hukam.

Sat Sri Akal to all.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

Hello all,

I have been bisexual and homosexual.

none lasted to long, however because i preferred, naturally, females.

I think a homosexual simply prefers their same gender, but i believe they could force themselves to be straight if they so chose to.

For the record, while we're on the topic, i have also battled against pedophiliic tendencies, that I no longer have, due to self control. I think the issue is whether we control our minds, or not, to follow God's hukam.

Sat Sri Akal to all.

I have been heterosexual and bisexual. None lasted too long because naturally I preferred males. Any heterosexual can make themselves homosexual if they chose too.

Unlike others though, I don't have so much lust that I want to thust my body into every hole. Uncontrollable kaam is not associated with homosexuality as a homosexual who has uncontrollable kaam could easily desire children, animals and opposite sex too whilst still being a homosexual. Desire and act are two different things. Please ignore Sherab's comments as most paedophiles in the world are males going for young girls.
Sherab, please don't tell me you are the Mr Singh paedophile that was caught by The Sun newspaper a few years back and fled to India....... :shock::shock:

Sorry if my post was a little graphic but I some people on this thread make me laugh with their generalisation and idiocy.

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear dr.khalsa

Today i was reading an article of a girl who was raised by lesbian parents.she said that
lesbian parents helped her to explore her sexuality and today she can proudly say that she is bisexual.could you please shed some light on this that what is exploring sexuality?
how could someone explore its sexuality if its natural.Even in this thread sherab said that he could choose to be striaght or homosexual.again if it is natural the how could someone
choose to become straight or homosexual.

Also i want to know what is bisexuality? is it also natural to be attracted to both sexes
The last report i read on bisexuality said that there is nothing such as bisexuality.either people are straight or gay.So if its true then from where bisexuality come?

Dear Friend

I will try to answer with best of my knowledge till now and can be wrong .Its based on my working in mental health dept

Sexuality as we know it as adult isnt that simple process that happen in human life just like many other process that we take just foregranted and simple as it is

The final sexuality of somebody is dependant on two factors

Genotipic aasingnment of sex at time of inception of child in mother i.e XY(Male ) XX ( female)

But unfoutunately and obviously at time of birth we cant differentiate Male from Female child just on looks they are same except the different genitilia But if genitilia are ambiguos OR Sometime misleading due to other genetic defects related to hormone and hormone receptors , a child could be raised with diffrent Sexuality label by Parents/Caretaker

I am telling all this to make it clear that Identifying with sexuality is also greately influenced bythe conditioning that child is put into all these years till he become sexualy active So Conditioning play important ( but not the only ) role in final crystallisation of sex

On example from my experience : I have seen a 14 year old child which consulted hospital for absense of menstural cycle while all her freinds were having it .She was furthe investigated and on examination her appeared to have normal female genitilia
BUT!! on Ultrasound everthing turned upside down as there was no uterus( womb) present in child and also undesended Testes were found in Abdomen On Karyotyping the child was established to be MALE with XY Genotype . But as since birth his genitilia were misleading to his parents and to him and he was raised as female child and he had no problen with that at all Untill this day


Now coming to your query

exploring Sexuality could means to explore which way you feel more confortable in terms of sexuality

Its just escaping the generalised conditioning in Society which is more possible in house where it is allowed to be lesbian

In my understanding Sexuality is to just the Physical act and has other emotions/Drama assosiated with so in other words it could be tool to somebody just for physical gratification while to someother it could serve as tool to seek other gratifications related to emotional drama and stuff so in this later case one could seek to assosiated with either of the sex to serve its purpose ans can be called Bisexual


Thanks

Jatinder Singh

 

[Sherab]

I have been heterosexual and bisexual. None lasted too long because naturally I preferred males. Any heterosexual can make themselves homosexual if they chose too.

Unlike others though, I don't have so much lust that I want to thust my body into every hole. Uncontrollable kaam is not associated with homosexuality as a homosexual who has uncontrollable kaam could easily desire children, animals and opposite sex too whilst still being a homosexual. Desire and act are two different things. Please ignore Sherab's comments as most paedophiles in the world are males going for young girls.
Sherab, please don't tell me you are the Mr Singh paedophile that was caught by The Sun newspaper a few years back and fled to India....... :shock::shock:

Sorry if my post was a little graphic but I some people on this thread make me laugh with their generalisation and idiocy.

haha, no, i am a white, american male..

 

[kds1980]

Dr. khalsa wrote

On example from my experience : I have seen a 14 year old child which consulted hospital for absense of menstural cycle while all her freinds were having it .She was furthe investigated and on examination her appeared to have normal female genitilia
BUT!! on Ultrasound everthing turned upside down as there was no uterus( womb) present in child and also undesended Testes were found in Abdomen On Karyotyping the child was established to be MALE with XY Genotype . But as since birth his genitilia were misleading to his parents and to him and he was raised as female child and he had no problen with that at all Untill this day

your example is entirely different from what i read about gender identity on net.

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AboutOurKids.org | NYU Child Study Center Grand Rounds Summary

Dr. Reiner's project attempted to evaluate this treatment. His work focused on 36 patients, ages 5 to 16 who are genetically male, but were born with no, or virtually no, phallus. They were assessed for physical, behavioral, and attitudinal variables related to gender identity. Twenty-seven of these males had Cloacal Exstrophy (CE), a condition in which there are several structural birth defects, including a virtual absence of the *****, but hormone levels are not affected (fetuses are exposed to a normal amount of androgen in utero and the testes are normal). As CE occurs in only 1 in every 250,000 live births, the participants represented 20% of all children in the United States and Canada with CE in this age range.

Two of the participants were raised as male and 34 were raised as females. All showed strong male-typical behaviors and attitudes. Of the 34 raised as females, none showed female-typical behaviors or typical female heterosexual interests. Nineteen of the 34 had assigned themselves back to male and 76% of the 34 said they would rather be a male life-long if possible. All of those patients over 15 who were currently living as male had been involved in heterosexual relationships.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my understanding Sexuality is to just the Physical act and has other emotions/Drama assosiated with so in other words it could be tool to somebody just for physical gratification while to someother it could serve as tool to seek other gratifications related to emotional drama and stuff so in this later case one could seek to assosiated with either of the sex to serve its purpose ans can be called Bisexual

What i understand is that you are saying that sexuality differ from person to person for some sexuality = physical gratification while for other it could physical+ emotional = emotional gratification

 

[drkhalsa]

http://www.aboutourkids.org/aboutour/articles/grandrounds9-29-00.html

AboutOurKids.org | NYU Child Study Center Grand Rounds Summary

Dr. Reiner's project attempted to evaluate this treatment. His work focused on 36 patients, ages 5 to 16 who are genetically male, but were born with no, or virtually no, phallus. They were assessed for physical, behavioral, and attitudinal variables related to gender identity. Twenty-seven of these males had Cloacal Exstrophy (CE), a condition in which there are several structural birth defects, including a virtual absence of the *****, but hormone levels are not affe

Dear friend

This man has done stuctured study I guess and I had given just example of one patient I have seen. So obviously study stands better chance of reaching conclusion

BUT even in this study it is notable that only 74 % of the the genetic male wanted to live as Male ( which is obviously expected as they are basically male with male hormones)
WHILE BIG 26 % still left out of such decision and this is more significant and important why ?... because this not expected as all are male and with hormones but just their conditioning has made then like this

So eve in your example it says the same thing although with figures and in more structured way

 

[kds1980]

Dear friend

This man has done stuctured study I guess and I had given just example of one patient I have seen. So obviously study stands better chance of reaching conclusion

BUT even in this study it is notable that only 74 % of the the genetic male wanted to live as Male ( which is obviously expected as they are basically male with male hormones)
WHILE BIG 26 % still left out of such decision and this is more significant and important why ?... because this not expected as all are male and with hormones but just their conditioning has made then like this

So eve in your example it says the same thing although with figures and in more structured way

http://www.aboutourkids.org/aboutour/articles/grandrounds9-29-00.html
Dr. khalsa ji you didn,t clicked on the link

Dr. Reiner's project attempted to evaluate this treatment. His work focused on 36 patients, ages 5 to 16 who are genetically male,

It means some of them are quite small

his example also stated that

Of the 34 raised as females, none showed female-typical behaviors or typical female heterosexual interests.

also the doctor's conclusion is
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Reiner argues that these findings suggest that the original hypothesis of gender identity - that there is gender neutrality at birth and a child's rearing determines her gender identity - is false. When hormonally normal males are brought up as females, they continue to exhibit male-typical behaviors. Dr. Reiner argues that when we try to scientifically study gender, we are first assuming that gender exists. This is an intuitive, not a scientific, belief. In fact, there is no way to empirically, objectively measure gender. The error of sex assignment lies in the belief that we can scientifically determine something which, by its nature, can not be measured or observed. Gender is an internal reality and can only be intuited by the person.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it means a person's upbringing has no impact on its gender

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear KDS1980

Please escuse me for short reply as I am quite bust these days .We can discuss these in details sometime

About the study : my firend its not easy to really get what the study wants to teel and its practicle implications .It takes many years to train mind of medical students and doctors to understand how to read such studies for use in clinical practice I am still in the learning priocess and I expect that you alos wont be able to get good conclusions preety easily

Siad all that I have read the page you posted link : few main points

1) There is general agreement about how enviornment effects genderidentity and this study tries to to give alternative hypothesis Its still hypotheses and one study just cant make new rule sin medical science
2) even going by study to be absolute perfect study model( which is always immpossible) you statement

So it means a person's upbringing has no impact on its gender

still stands wrong !

why yur statement is based on these lines I guess

Of the 34 raised as females, none showed female-typical behaviors or typical female heterosexual interests. Nineteen of the 34 had assigned themselves back to male and 76% of the 34 said they would rather be a male life-long if possible. All of those patients over 15 who were currently living as male had been involved in heterosexual relationships.

these lines are not telling anything definate in medical terms in all these patients there is normal production of Testosterone ( instead of predominant estrogen ) to definaely 100% od them are expected and should be showing male characters and typical male sexual interest even if single patient out of it shows something otherwise IT IS HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT because even in presence of male hormones there enviornment made impact and this what is important not that in presense of testosterone all showed male charcters( it is obvious thing that should happen ).I know that study shows that no participants showed female charcter but wordused is TYPICAL and also there is no explanation in study why remaning 26 % of patients after knowing all this about their male thing dont want to revert back to male lifestyle

76% of the 34 said they would rather be a male life-long if possible

why study not say anything about it .This is shows the imperfection of study ( just like all studies done in such rare disease)

YOUR STAEMENT CAN BEST MODIFIED AS
ENVIORNMENT DOES NOT HAVE THE DECIDING IMPACT ON SEXUALITY ( as far as I know no literaure says otherwise )



All about this post DOES NOT HAVE MUCH TO RELATE TO HOMOSEXULAITY AS THREAD IS ABOUT IT SO ALL THESE POST ARE DEVIATION FROM IT AS ALL THESE PATIENTS ARE ABNORMAL PHYSICALY AND NOT HOMOSEXUAL IN ANY WAY


THE ONLY STATEMENT SIGNIFICANT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE STUDY WAS

The error of sex assignment lies in the belief that we can scientifically determine something which, by its nature, can not be measured or observed. Gender is an internal reality and can only be intuited by the person.

Also important statement is :

The best a physician can do is to choose the likeliest gender, while remaining open to the idea that this choice may be wrong. The physician and the family should be flexible, observant, and listen to the child.

If we go by your earlier conclusion then there is no room left for option and everybody should be advised to go by genetic gender but Dr William G. Reiner does not think so as clearly evident fronm this statement


I dont know whether I have explained something or created more confusion .in later case I m sorry



Jatinder SIngh

 

[kds1980]

Lesbian marriage falls apart in Punjab, one booked

Batala (Punjab): A 'marriage' between two girls near this Punjab town went terribly wrong on Thursday with the 'boy' in the relationship slitting her wrists in an attempted suicide bid, but ending up being booked by the police.

The 'drama' of this lesbian marriage — the second one to be highlighted in Punjab — unfolded on Thursday in the court of the sub-divisional magistrate when Rajwinder Kaur — the 'girl' in the marriage — gave a statement that she no longer wanted to live with the 'boy', Baljit Kaur.

Rajwinder and Baljit, belonging to Hassanpur Khurd and Hassanpur Kalan villages respectively, had run away from their homes last month and had secretly married on June 3. They disclosed their marriage on June 13 and started living together in Patiala.

Pressure started to build on both the girls to separate, especially from the family of Rajwinder. Rajwinder's family brought her back from Patiala and produced her before the SDM after lodging a complaint against Baljit for cheating her.

After Rajwinder recorded her statement, Baljit got hysterical and ran outside the courtroom and slit her wrists to protest the separation. Alert policemen in the court complex caught hold of Baljit and gave her first aid.

She was rushed to a nearby government hospital for treatment. Baljit was later booked by the Batala police for attempted suicide. District police chief R Dhoke said Baljit was recovering from her suicide bid and had been booked.

The SDM had earlier asked the families of the two girls to take them back to their respective homes. Baljit said Rajwinder had been forced to give statements against her under pressure from her family. "We are totally in love," she screamed.

Rajwinder's family members alleged that Baljit, who used to dress like men, had hoodwinked their daughter into this 'unholy' alliance by promising to take her to Canada. "She was cheated to get into this relationship by the promise of going to Canada," Rajwinder's father Bir Singh said.

Police officials said they were investigating all angles of this 'unique' case. Another lesbian marriage between two girls in Amritsar city, 60 km from here, had ended earlier this year after two-and-a-half years of the marriage.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Show me 5 or 10 references where it says you cannot take heroine or methadone.

Bhai this is your domin so rather help das to find. These 10 to 5 quotes also regarding drugs.

 

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Guru Sahib makes it clear and says anything harming you mind is no good thus heroine and methadone are rejected unless for medical reason. People are homosexuals because they got control issues and other mental issues. Just like a nasha addict can't be Sikh, a homosexual can't be sikh.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Guru Sahib makes it clear and says anything harming you mind is no good thus heroine and methadone are rejected unless for medical reason. People are homosexuals because they got control issues and other mental issues. Just like a nasha addict can't be Sikh, a homosexual can't be sikh.

people are homosexuals because of control issues and mental issues? do you live in the middle ages?

can you show me proof of this bizarre theory?

 

[The Khalsa Fauj]

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥ ਸੀਲੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਸੁਚ ਭੰਨੀ ਖਾਣਾ ਖਾਜੁ ਅਹਾਜੁ ॥ ਸਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਪਤਿ ਉਠਿ ਚਲੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਸਚਾ ਭਾਲਿ ॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1243}


Shabad above makes it clear the sodomy and homosexuality is against Gurmat. Won't two men indulge in sodomy? Sikhi isn't based on dasam granth which says good to sodomy. Dasam Granth kanjars can establish their own religion by only focusing on dasam granth. Call it bachitter natak granth as dasam granth writers called it. Don't call it Dasam Granth. Don't defame name of my 10th Paatshah by linking him to garbage.

 

[Archived_Member1]

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥ ਸੀਲੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਸੁਚ ਭੰਨੀ ਖਾਣਾ ਖਾਜੁ ਅਹਾਜੁ ॥ ਸਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਪਤਿ ਉਠਿ ਚਲੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਸਚਾ ਭਾਲਿ ॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1243}


Shabad above makes it clear the sodomy and homosexuality is against Gurmat. Won't two men indulge in sodomy? Sikhi isn't based on dasam granth which says good to sodomy. Dasam Granth kanjars can establish their own religion by only focusing on dasam granth. Call it bachitter natak granth as dasam granth writers called it. Don't call it Dasam Granth. Don't defame name of my 10th Paatshah by linking him to garbage.

perhaps my translation is innacurate, but i don't see anything about sodomy there:

Rannā ho­ī­ā boḏẖī­ā puras ho­ė sa­ī­āḏ.
Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.
Sīl sanjam sucẖ bẖannī kẖāṇā kẖāj ahāj.
Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food.
Saram ga­i­ā gẖar āpṇai paṯ uṯẖ cẖalī nāl.
Modesty has left her home, and honor has gone away with her.
Nānak sacẖā ėk hai a­or na sacẖā bẖāl. ||2||
O Nanak, there is only One True Lord; do not bother to search for any other as true. ||2||

please don't allow yourself to be brainwashed by the christian/muslim tradition... they've destroyed enough of indian culture already.

i still see nothing in gurbani which is against homosexuality. sikhi is about accepting people as God made them, not condemning them for being different than you.

 

[The Khalsa Fauj]

It has nothing to do with how God made someone. Those who rape are also made by God. They can in no means be called Sikhs. Those who have greed issues and kill are also made by God, they can't be called Sikhs. Same way, homosexuals can't be called Sikhs. They should get treatment and fix themselves instead of asking for rights. This is same for drugs addicts and cannabis addcits. God made them excuse doesn't work. There are countless shabads which talk about husband and wife. Who is husband and who is wife in between homosexuals? This is just dirty and low life.

 

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Thos English translations are wrong. It is about women becoming lesbians and men becoming homosexuals. Guru Sahib says it has to do with disease of the mind so it is personal choice in the end. Doesn't matter.