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General Sikhi Path

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General Sikhi Path

muddymick

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Jan 17, 2011
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Spnadmin Ji,

My obligations regarding sentient beings eventual enlightenment is neither sectarian nor in fact religious. I have absolutely no interest in either gaining adherents or playing mind games.
I have discussed individuals approaches and Sikhi, only making cursory remarks vis-a-vis Buddhism when elicited by another.
This is clear for all to see.

This is called proselytizing. Though it may not seem at first to be preaching - as that is not the Buddhist style - it does begin with a phase where numerous questions are thrown out to "check" the ability of responders to think for themselves. The goal is to demonstrate that the responder doesn't know what he/she is talking about and everyone else in the viewing audience might be attracted to the intellectual clarity of the proselytizer.
I think you may be reading way too much into my posts. I am making inquiries and debate from a love for knowledge and understanding.Not from a partisan approach to such! I do not care about the religion of any poster. The debate or discussion would be the same regardless! Even if they were of the same lineage as me!

Frankly you are not making any sense. You continually contradict your own reasons for asking questions and also your stated reasons for wanting to know about Sikhi. I don't think you really want to learn anything because you seem to have all the questions and the answers.
I understand that you may feel annoyed with me, but there is a distinct lack of coherence here when first you accuse me of proselytising through intellectual clarity then continually contradicting myself. If it is both I don't think my convert list will be very big...

I am sorry that my observations regarding orthodoxy cause you such consternation. I will endeavour to be more circumspect with my observations in future posts.

:mundafacepalm:
 

muddymick

SPNer
Jan 17, 2011
96
106
spnadmin ji,

Let's regroup. What is it that you would like to know about Sikhi?
I hope you take this in the spirit it is meant....

Little Johnny’s parents are talking at the breakfast table about how fed-up they are with Little Johnny and his brother swearing all the time. They decide the next time the children swear, that they are going to administer a bloody good spanking. At that moment, Little Johnny’s younger brother enters. His mother smiles, “Good morning darling, what would you like for breakfast?” “F***ing cornflakes!” comes the reply. “That’s it!” Little Johnny’s father grabs him, puts him over his knee and gives him a spanking before sitting him back at the kitchen table. Little Johnny who has observed the commotion from the top of the stairs heads down into the kitchen. His mother smiles at him, “Now, Johnny, what would you like for breakfast?” Little Johnny thinks for a moment then looks up with big innocent eyes, “Well, not f***ing cornflakes that's for sure!”

I feel a little bit like that second kid now and feel like I might just be guilty of my previous crime regardless of the subject! :grinningsingh:
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Spnadmin Ji,


I have discussed individuals approaches and Sikhi, only making cursory remarks vis-a-vis Buddhism when elicited by another.
This is clear for all to see. No it is not clear at all. You have made allegations and generalizations. When asked to be more specific you ignore the request.


I think you may be reading way too much into my posts. I am making inquiries and debate from a love for knowledge and understanding.

If you love knowledge and understanding, then read this. I thought I posted this link before, but maybe not. This is a substantive, rational, disciplined and informed explanation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (scripture) http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/Compilation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.pdf

Not from a partisan approach to such! I do not care about the religion of any poster. The debate or discussion would be the same regardless! Even if they were of the same lineage as me!

There you go! What is this presumption of a partisan approach? Don't we have to distinguish between points of view that are informed and shooting from the hip?



I understand that you may feel annoyed with me, but there is a distinct lack of coherence here when first you accuse me of proselytising through intellectual clarity then continually contradicting myself. If it is both I don't think my convert list will be very big...

Please re-read what I said. What clarity?

I am sorry that my observations regarding orthodoxy cause you such consternation. I will endeavour to be more circumspect with my observations in future posts.

Please just be open-minded enough to consider my point that it may be very difficult to demonstrate that there is such a being as an orthodox Sikh, and consider my arguments for making that point. They are now posted over several of my recent comments.

:mundafacepalm:
Yes I am annoyed. I am having mental impressions of being part of a troupe of monks from centuries gone by who have traveled to another distant monastery to debate sutras, energetically trumping the opposition on fine points of dogma and cleverness. Consider my story of the soldiers jumping from a helicopter into raging waters, one of them a Sikh. A Sikh starts and ends with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If you want to understand Sikhi, that is your jumping off point. You ask for references to comparative religious texts. Comparative religious texts will tell you about Sikhi from the perspective of a Google map, satellite view. You can zoom to street level. But to understand Sikhi you have to cross the threshold of the Guru and get into the house. Why not just start in the house and forget the satellite view?
 
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muddymick

SPNer
Jan 17, 2011
96
106
spnadmin ji,

I cannot refute what I see as inaccurate in your post.
I have been warned and therefore you are free to make whatever postulations, implications or conclusions you will regarding my posts or in fact my motivation.

However I can say this discussion has offered many insights from inception to elimination. Many thanks :)
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Muddymick ji,

Guru Fateh.

I feel the need to jump in. The fact of the matter is that you started this thread called Sikhi Path and went all over about other things rather than sticking to the subject because when questioned you gallantly defended yourself as the progenitor of the thread, hence you knew better. The point was well taken and I asked you to stick to the thread which I am asking you again.

Please be specific about your questions. If you have a built up opinion about Sikhi Path, then share with us.

Having said this, I also mentioned that you were comparing your Buddhism more which had nothing to do with the Sikh Path. You ignored that fact and did not respond to it. In fact the way you responded without quotes made it more muddied than you may have intended. I did not understand your response at all as a matter of fact.

I once again agree with Spnadmin ji. If we want to discuss the subject, let's stick to it.

The ball is in your court. Start the conversation about the Sikhi Path, the thread you are the progenitor of with specificity and clarity. Myself and I am sure others would be interested in this interaction too.

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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muddymick

SPNer
Jan 17, 2011
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106
Tejwant ji,

I am finding the genesis of the thread and how it's development is perceived very interesting.

The fact of the matter is that you started this thread called Sikhi Path and went all over about other things rather than sticking to the subject because when questioned you gallantly defended yourself as the progenitor of the thread, hence you knew better.
I wouldn't have described it as gallantly however thank you. I have I thought responded to posts and therefore the relevant issues as they arose. I did not just consciously ramble off alone or without others involved in the discussion.

Your next post might indicate something of how this perception is skewed..

I also mentioned that you were comparing your Buddhism more which had nothing to do with the Sikh Path.
Did you know I have made 6 references to Buddha/ Buddhism in the entirety of the thread?

That's 6 references out of my 17 posts!

Only 2 references where not in answer to another's post! they were in my introduction and "striking parallels with Buddhism" in post 2.

Do you know how many times other posters have mentioned Buddha/Buddhism?

18 times!

You ignored that fact and did not respond to it.
No I didn't, I thought it may be impolite to point out your misconception!

It would seem that you carry my Buddhism in this thread much more than I do.

I am a little reluctant to forge ahead now as my debates and discussions as to how one approaches the centre of the Sikh path (Gurbani) are seen as bald saffron attacks without context or content.

:mundafacepalm:
 

Ishna

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May 9, 2006
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I am a little reluctant to forge ahead now as my debates and discussions as to how one approaches the centre of the Sikh path (Gurbani) are seen as bald saffron attacks without context or content.
THAT is the actual question for the thread? I didn't get that impression from the posts. I thought the thread was meant to be about the Sikh path in general - I did ask for clarity though and I guess here it is.

Do you want to start again? :sippingcoffee: You can by starting with Post #18. I've only ever been trying to have a discussion with you about Sikhi.
 

akiva

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Apr 20, 2011
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Jerusalem
I understand what muddymick Ji is asking (havingexplored /still exploring the same question)

Just tossing out a thought experiment (which might help...)

If a non-Sikh came to Guru Nanak Ji and wanted to become a Sikh, what would Guru Nanak Ji tell him to do FIRST? And WHY?

Would the answer be DIFFERENT if the same non-Sikh came to Guru Gobind Singh Ji?

Akiva
 

arshdeep88

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Mar 14, 2013
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""If a non-Sikh came to Guru Nanak Ji and wanted to become a Sikh, what would Guru Nanak Ji tell him to do FIRST? And WHY?

Would the answer be DIFFERENT if the same non-Sikh came to Guru Gobind Singh Ji?"""


Just my WORTHLESS points and views

Guru Angad Dev Ji was Bhai Lehna When he came before Guru Nanak
did he became Guru Angad Overnight? Did he became the Disciple ,student Of Guru Nanak Overnight
i think its no.There was lot toil ,sacrifices willingness to leave ego behind it.
if we look deep into various sakhis and try, to get the real meaning , we see Bhai Lehna doing all the work which he was told and loving Guru nanak Dev Mahraj unconditionally.
Love can be done only by removing ego and trusting the other person whatever he says.He served Guru Nanak Mahraj unconditionally that much which even his sons couldn't do.In return he got the jewels of life and was made the Guru by none other than Guru Nanak Dev Mahraj and Bhai Lehna Became Guru Angad.
yes there could have been times where Bhai lehna could have said this man(Guru Nanak Ji )whatever he says is not making sense but still he held on and unwillingly trusted him and see in return he got that much knowledge himself that he was the GURU 2.
The same love can be seen in the case of Guru Angad Dev And Guru Amardas ji
The same trend has been right till the last Guru.
When Guru Gobind Singh asked for 5 sikhs willing to sacrifice their heads for him ,he was actually looking for people who were willing to leave out their ego behind no matter what and trust the Guru to show the path.
Leaving of ego ,unconditional love and faith plays a big role.

There is a deep connection between guru and the disciple.

forgive me if i said something wrong just talked off from my wisdom.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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""If a non-Sikh came to Guru Nanak Ji and wanted to become a Sikh, what would Guru Nanak Ji tell him to do FIRST? And WHY?

Would the answer be DIFFERENT if the same non-Sikh came to Guru Gobind Singh Ji?"""


Just my WORTHLESS points and views

Guru Angad Dev Ji was Bhai Lehna When he came before Guru Nanak
did he became Guru Angad Overnight? Did he became the Disciple ,student Of Guru Nanak Overnight
i think its no.There was lot toil ,sacrifices willingness to leave ego behind it.
if we look deep into various sakhis and try, to get the real meaning , we see Bhai Lehna doing all the work which he was told and loving Guru nanak Dev Mahraj unconditionally.
Love can be done only by removing ego and trusting the other person whatever he says.He served Guru Nanak Mahraj unconditionally that much which even his sons couldn't do.In return he got the jewels of life and was made the Guru by none other than Guru Nanak Dev Mahraj and Bhai Lehna Became Guru Angad.
yes there could have been times where Bhai lehna could have said this man(Guru Nanak Ji )whatever he says is not making sense but still he held on and unwillingly trusted him and see in return he got that much knowledge himself that he was the GURU 2.
The same love can be seen in the case of Guru Angad Dev And Guru Amardas ji
The same trend has been right till the last Guru.
When Guru Gobind Singh asked for 5 sikhs willing to sacrifice their heads for him ,he was actually looking for people who were willing to leave out their ego behind no matter what and trust the Guru to show the path.
Leaving of ego ,unconditional love and faith plays a big role.

There is a deep connection between guru and the disciple.

forgive me if i said something wrong just talked off from my wisdom.
Arshdeep ji,

Guru Fateh.

Just my WORTHLESS points and views
Before I start to express my thought, I would like to say that no views are worthless in Sikhi, hence we proudly call ourselves Sikhs. This is the only was we live and learn.

Very well explained and I want to thank you for that. Sikhi is an idea based not dogma based which makes the people who want to follow the path at ease and away from 'sins'- as in the dogmatic religions because it rejects all kinds of rituals to please god.

In fact Ik Ong Kaar does not need any pleasing nor praising but our love from the within for these awe and wow factors we are surrounded by are very well written in a musical forms in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru by our visionary Gurus in order to create the desire within to sing Ik Ong Kaar's praises.

The importance of music was very vital to our Gurus and can not be lost. Music is the universal connection among all peoples and one feels it within first and foremost irrespective of the language barriers. Music makes us dance from the within whose feelings are upon an individual and can not be put into words. It needs no scholarly education nor any other kind of education either. What we feel within with the music is our personal journey. In other words, Music that plays within us is Conducted by our own souls. Our Souls hold the baton as Conductors.

Our Gurus were very forward thinking. That is why they did not create any hierarchy-Mr. Go Betweens like The Pope/s, Mullahs, Priests, Rabbis etc etc.

The absence of any clergy hierarchy is of utmost value because it puts all of us on the same pedestal as of our Gurus.

This shows the direct contact between the follower and his/her Guru and all are equal irrespective of their gender, sexual orientations and or other differences they may have.

Lastly, Guru Gobind Singh put the icing on the cake in the same manner by commanding us that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our only ultimate Guru/Teacher.

None of the Gurus pretended nor intended to be anything else but Sikhs in the real sense of the word and so are we.

I would like to point out one more unique thing in Sikhi way of life and I commend Guru Gobind Singh's vision in this which is so far beyond the times he was living in.

He did not force any one to become Khalsa by taking Khandei di Pahul. He asked for 5 people, the reason of which was unknown to them, among the thousands who were there on the day of Vaisakhi in 1699.

What an unforgettable day it may have been one wonders!

Guru Sahib did not ask all to take Khandei di Pahul on the day of Vaisakhi in 1699, nor did he make this the only condition for one to becoming a Sikh.

He understood that Sikhi is idea based not dogma based which means it is based on wills and willnots rather than do’s and don’ts nor on must and must nots.

Even people who did not keep hair were called Sehajdhari Sikhi. To put it in today’s terms, it means “take your sweet time”, create the thirst/hunger within first which will hopefully make you run towards becoming a Khalsa.

That is why Khandei di Pahul is a very unique thing in Sikhi. It is not a baptism as loosely translated by many. Baptism in Christianity, Mundan in Hinduism and Buddhism, Bar-mitzvah in Judaism and many other rituals performed in different religions are done at a very early age, some when the baby is only a few days old and others a bit older.

The uniqueness of Khandei di Pahul is that one can take it when one feels ready for it, even at the very late years of one’s life. Without this, one still remains a Sikh.

Why I said this decision was futuristic is for the following reasons.

Mr. Ripudaman Singh Malik of Vancouver was a hippie in the 70’s who was known for having the best bar in the town where all used to flock to hail cheers while emptying their booze glasses.

Then, one day he met Bhai Jeewan Singh and his whole life changed. He took khandei de pahul and with Bhai Sahib’s guidance he opened the first Khalsa School which is ranked 10th in BC. After sometime he opened Khalsa Credit Union, the first bank that would have Punjabi/English speaking employees.

Both these ventures were not for his personal gain as a businessman he is but to a nonprofit trust.

The bank grew amazingly fast and other banks followed the same by adding Punjabi speaking employees.

Here comes the hic-up. As the bank was expanding faster than other well-known banks, it was ripe for the takeover.

The unfortunate mistake the founders of the bank made was to have 100 only Amritdhari people to invest in the trust not thinking about the legality and it effects under the Canadian law. They are all devotional kind hence sans any ill will.

This was the loop hole a big bank found out to take over under the discrimination law which was never the intent when the bank was founded. It was just a bank to serve Canadian citizens. In fact many non-Sikh companies have their accounts there.

If they had had other people during the fast expansion from all walks of life including non Amritdhari Sikhs, then the bank would have no way of been taken over except if the Trust wanted to sell it because it made business sense.

Eventually it was forced to be taken over by a bigger Canadian bank because of this loop hole.

This was the original vision of our 10th Guru and I must state that this is my personal opinion based on my Sikh studies. Sikhi is all inclusive. If the founders had thought in this pragmatic manner as our Gurus had envisioned, then the things may have been different today.

Arshdeep ji, in closing I would say that what you said is exactly the relationship between a Sikh and the Guru, our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji now, that was bestowed upon us by our visionary 10th Guru.

Thanks once again for explaining it in such a simple way.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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muddymick

SPNer
Jan 17, 2011
96
106
Tejwant Ji,

At the risk of eliciting annoyance, although I sincerely hope I do not! There are some mistakes regarding equivalences in other faiths. Some of your comparisons can be a little misleading. I am not suggesting this is on purpose in any shape or form. However I hope my pointing them out would clarify interfaith relations as opposed to creating any further confusion.

That is why Khandei di Pahul is a very unique thing in Sikhi. It is not a baptism as loosely translated by many. Baptism in the Christianity, Mundan in Hinduism and Buddhism, Bar-mitzvah in Judaism and many other rituals in different religions are done at a very early age, some when the baby is a few days old and others a bit older.
Baptism for Christians although confirmation would be more applicable for Catholics and many reformed churches baptise and re-baptise at later dates, Mundan for some Hindus, The closest equivalent in Buddhism would be formally taking refuge with Abisheka and Samaya not Mundan. The Bar mitzvah & Bat mitzvah is a formal coming of age 13 and 12 respectively the age where they are expected to take on the obligations of canonical law.
These religious ceremonies/rituals are not equatable with Khandei di Pahul. Although all these faiths have chronologically later ceremonies and rituals that would offer much better comparisons and are both volitional and can be undertaken anytime in adulthood.

With full respect given to Khandei di Pahul and Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
I agree it is unique!
However I do not agree that it is unique for some of the reasons you give.
It is unique because of it’s very nature within the Sikh faith.
It is not unique in being the only volitional adult ceremony marking/conferring such a taking up of religious and moral duties!

“The uniqueness of Khandei di Pahul is that one can take it when one feels ready, even at the very late years of one’s life. Without this, one still remains a Sikh”
There are many similar religious ceremonies in many faiths that impart a greater religious (within that faith) duty on those participating. Many of those can be taken up when the individual feels ready. Yet if they do not they are still of that faith.

Unique yes, for the reason you have given? I disagree.

:peacesign:
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Muddynick ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for clearing it up and your point is well taken.However, let's not try to get bogged down on mere semantics but try to understand the whole gist of the thought process expressed here.

Let's focus on the name of the thread which is Sikhi Path and you are its progenitor.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh
 

muddymick

SPNer
Jan 17, 2011
96
106
May I apologise for the shortcomings of my knowledge and ability to express it. It is in no way a reflection of the Sikh Dharma.

Am I correct in thinking……


Firstly I must accept and try to understand the Mul Mantar?

I must strive to contextualise that and my experience of the world through the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I must develop a relationship with the Guru Granth Sahib Ji the same as between a Guru and Chela.

I am unable to understand the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and therefore cannot cultivate a intimate relationship with Waheguru when I am subject to the five thieves.

Therefore I must route out the five thieves to enable a clarity of thought and action that does not enable a delusion of separation from Waheguru.

That direct experience of Waheguru,( non dual immanent reality) is the experience of the description and the fruit of full understanding and implementation of the Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Is this incorrect?
:shymunda:
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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May I apologise for the shortcomings of my knowledge and ability to express it. It is in no way a reflection of the Sikh Dharma.

Am I correct in thinking……


Firstly I must accept and try to understand the Mul Mantar?

I must strive to contextualise that and my experience of the world through the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I must develop a relationship with the Guru Granth Sahib Ji the same as between a Guru and Chela.

I am unable to understand the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and therefore cannot cultivate a intimate relationship with Waheguru when I am subject to the five thieves.

Therefore I must route out the five thieves to enable a clarity of thought and action that does not enable a delusion of separation from Waheguru.

That direct experience of Waheguru,( non dual immanent reality) is the experience of the description and the fruit of full understanding and implementation of the Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Is this incorrect?
:shymunda:
I think you've described it quite well above...
I like to think of mool manter as not only description of God, but also of my True Self which i cannot see through the fog of the mind... now it's time to go on that journey to experience it all...

From your posts i see that you are seeking that connection, experience of God or Self realisation ... I seek that too :) we are One

Whilst we do not and will not be able to mentally comprehend what it is we are exactly seeking...we seek none the less because we feel some inner pull and thirst.... for that we are both Sikhs...in it's purest form

We are not part of Sikh'ISM' or Budh'ISM' for this creates boundaries as defined by our dualistic mind.

We are ONE :)

Please share your practical Experience on my Blog Ji, It would be great to take this Journey together as brothers with no mentally created boundaries to Seperate us. Where i Fall, you uplift and Vice Versa.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/blogs/chazsingh/8301-daily-amrit-vela-blog-difficulties-joys.html#comments

God Bless Ji
 

muddymick

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Jan 17, 2011
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chazSingh ji,

From your posts I see that you are seeking that connection, experience of God or Self realisation ... I seek that too we are One
You are correct!

Whilst we do not and will not be able to mentally comprehend what it is we are exactly seeking...we seek none the less because we feel some inner pull and thirst.... for that we are both Sikhs...in it's purest form
I agree!

Although to avoid upsetting or compromising anyone's sense of group identity etc I would never claim to be a Sikh in the generally accepted sense of the word.

We are not part of Sikh'ISM' or Budh'ISM' for this creates boundaries as defined by our dualistic mind.

We are ONE
And again I am in complete accord!

Priest from both Hinduism and Islam got together and began discussing religion. A great fantasy has been created and no one could understand its mystery. They asked Guru Nanak to open and search in his scripture whether Hindu is greater or the Muslim. Guru replied that without good deeds both will have to weep and wail. Only by being a Hindu or a Muslim one cannot get accepted in the kingdom of God. As the color of safflower is impermanent and is washed away in water, likewise the colors of religiosity are also temporary (The Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji, 1).
We can obviously swap the names of any religion for Hindu and Muslim in this quote.
It is the identification with other, the self and other dichotomy=dualism that stops one entering the kingdom.

Please share your practical Experience on my Blog Ji, It would be great to take this Journey together as brothers with no mentally created boundaries to Seperate us. Where i Fall, you uplift and Vice Versa.
Thank you :happysingh:
 

Brother Onam

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Jul 11, 2012
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Ireland is really a holy land, unique and beautiful. On the whole though, I feel if Sikhi prevailed there, it would be more auspicious all the way around, notwithstanding how much Catholicism is bound to its identity. Just how I feel.
 

seeker3k

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May 24, 2008
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Ishna ji brought up rememberance of Naam with your heart. Mainly NAAM. I have problem with this. What is naam?

In Sikhi it is also said saas gras na visran. What I understand what ever we are doing eating breathing should remember Naam or recite it.
 

Ishna

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May 9, 2006
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There are threads about Naam - it can't be summed up in a nutshell.

EDIT: Correction, it can't be summed up at all, or described. It can only be intuitively grasped, experienced and like Harry ji said, lived.
 
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