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Sikhi After Life

spnadmin

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To be honest, I know if you are a really virtuous Sikh, you may recieve a spot in sach khand and "merge" with Sri Vaheguru. Or if you are not as virtuous you will keep getting reincarnated till you become so. Everyone has to go to Narakh for their paaps for a while, and after that you get to go to Swarg (not sach khand) for as much virtues you've done.

I have been told that when you go to Narakh, the yam dhuuts would constantly give you pain for your virtues, but they can never snatch the virtue of praying to Sri Vaheguru.

This is one reason why it is essential to pray to Sri Vaheguru for forgiveness. Saying sorry after you have done wrong is meaningless, pray to Sri Vaheguru and watch your prayers go to sach khand.

Kamala ji

For the second day in a row I am hearing about Sikhs who are "in the know."
Yesterday they were the devout who have made an exodus from this atheist forum. Today they are virtuous and must wait to die before the find sachkhand.


What is your reference for the statement

if you are a really virtuous Sikh, you may recieve a spot in sach khand and "merge" with Sri Vaheguru.

What is a "virtuous" Sikh?

Where is sachkhand? It is traditional to say something like, My ami has now gone to sachkhand. That is a euphemism for 'she died.' It doesn't sound as harsh if we think ami has passed to her reward. If nothing in Gurbani supports this, then it is folklore. Where is this spot in sachkhand? It is the type of thing that Guru Nanak warns against.

Sachkhand is where you are in this life when you have met the sat and achieve 'intuitive ease." You are no longer the slave of your ego, but you are the slave of the Guru.

In my opinion we need to relieve ourselves of the burden of these labels. Instead get on with the work of being the label. To be freed from the imagery of language that traps our spirit, that is liberation here and now.
 

Kamala

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Kamala ji

For the second day in a row I am hearing about Sikhs who are "in the know."
Yesterday they were the devout who have made an exodus from this atheist forum. Today they are virtuous and must wait to die before the find sachkhand.
What is your reference for the statement
What is a "virtuous" Sikh?
Where is sachkhand? It is traditional to say something like, My ami has now gone to sachkhand. That is a euphemism for 'she died.' It doesn't sound as harsh if we think ami has passed to her reward. If nothing in Gurbani supports this, then it is folklore. Where is this spot in sachkhand? It is the type of thing that Guru Nanak warns against.
Sachkhand is where you are in this life when you have met the sat and achieve 'intuitive ease." You are no longer the slave of your ego, but you are the slave of the Guru.
In my opinion we need to relieve ourselves of the burden of these labels. Instead get on with the work of being the label. To be freed from the imagery of language that traps our spirit, that is liberation here and now.
Sachkhand isn't in this life. If you were in Sachkhand, you would have been merged with Sri Vaheguru, do you think you are?
 

spnadmin

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Well, I don't think they are called Narakh or Swarg specifically, they are named after different kinds of hells, like rasthal (different patalas) for example.

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td> ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
तीरथ बरत नेम कीए ते सभै रसातलि जांहि ॥२३३॥
Ŧirath baraṯ nem kī▫e ṯe sabẖai rasāṯal jāʼnhi. ||233||
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||
</td></tr></tbody></table>

Please let us take a look at the saloka of Kabir ji when it is seen along with some of its partner verses. This is from Ang 1377. I think we will attain a better understanding of what is meant by "hell" if we see it in context.

I have not done a careful check of the translation, so some of the verses may not be exact. However we are looking at Kabeer ji's vision that contrasts the hell of arrogance and ego with the constant bliss of the company of his beloved Friend.

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
Kabīr bẖāʼng mācẖẖulī surā pān jo jo parānī kẖāʼnhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
Ŧirath baraṯ nem kī▫e ṯe sabẖai rasāṯal jāʼnhi. ||233||
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

ਨੀਚੇ ਲੋਇਨ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਉ ਲੇ ਸਾਜਨ ਘਟ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Nīcẖe lo▫in kar raha▫o le sājan gẖat māhi.
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

ਸਭ ਰਸ ਖੇਲਉ ਪੀਅ ਸਉ ਕਿਸੀ ਲਖਾਵਉ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੨੩੪॥
Sabẖ ras kẖela▫o pī▫a sa▫o kisī lakẖāva▫o nāhi. ||234||
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ||234||

ਆਠ ਜਾਮ ਚਉਸਠਿ ਘਰੀ ਤੁਅ ਨਿਰਖਤ ਰਹੈ ਜੀਉ ॥
Āṯẖ jām cẖa▫usaṯẖ gẖarī ṯu▫a nirkẖaṯ rahai jī▫o.
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

ਨੀਚੇ ਲੋਇਨ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਉ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਦੇਖਉ ਪੀਉ ॥੨੩੫॥
Nīcẖe lo▫in ki▫o kara▫o sabẖ gẖat ḏekẖ▫a▫u pī▫o. ||235||
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ||235||

ਸੁਨੁ ਸਖੀ ਪੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਉ ਬਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਬਸੈ ਕਿ ਪੀਉ ॥
Sun sakẖī pī▫a mėh jī▫o basai jī▫a mėh basai kė pī▫o.
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

ਜੀਉ ਪੀਉ ਬੂਝਉ ਨਹੀ ਘਟ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਿ ਪੀਉ ॥੨੩੬॥
Jī▫o pī▫o būjẖa▫o nahī gẖat mėh jī▫o kė pī▫o. ||236||
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||

ਕਬੀਰ ਬਾਮਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਜਗਤ ਕਾ ਭਗਤਨ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
Kabīr bāman gurū hai jagaṯ kā bẖagṯan kā gur nāhi.
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.


ਅਰਝਿ ਉਰਝਿ ਕੈ ਪਚਿ ਮੂਆ ਚਾਰਉ ਬੇਦਹੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥੨੩੭॥
Arajẖ urajẖ kai pacẖ mū▫ā cẖāra▫o beḏahu māhi. ||237||
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||


This is not about "hell" apart from a hellish existence on earth. The first two verses tell us that someone who makes a show of status through rich diet and drink, and who makes an egotistical show of their virtue and devotion though pilgrimages and the like, they do not go to hell, but rather they come into their inheritance. It is hell, their spiritual inheritance; they do not have to be dead to inherit the wages of their pride.

In contrast to coming into an inheritance from arrogance and ego, Kabeer ji says in the next two verses, "I already enjoy the pleasure of the company of my beloved. And I do not brag about it, I keep it to myself, I keep my counsel because I am not one to make a show of my devotion.

Then Kabeer ji says, I won't lower my eyes to make it look as if I am so pious and humble. I won't make a show of that. I cast my eyes instead into the face of my beloved whom I find everywhere in every heart.

Kabeer ji then says let us all rejoice when we find the beloved within. There is no difference, we are like lovers who live constantly in each other's gaze. Our beloved is within, and we are within the beloved. In other words acts of piety like pilgrimages are unnecessary. And no one has to be notified; the one who matters most already knows..

Finally Kabeer ji says, and there are more saloks, I am stopping here. Kabeer ji says, the Brahmin (reference to those who make outward shows of piety through pilgrimages, rituals and fasts) may be recognized as gurus to the world (which in the times of Kabeer ji, that is how they served, teachers and keepers of the vedas). However they have nothing of value to teach the true devotee (the one who has that friend who never forsakes us). What happens to that Brahmin? He also comes into his inheritance. He rots in a hell of his own making: his vedas are so complex and his teachings are so complicated! How can he teach anyone?

I will go back and polish up the translations later.
 
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arshdeep88

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kamala ji i have tried reading the entire page which you mentioned and i grasped few points from there from my understanding
You can read him mentioning again and again that he(Kabeer Ji) is in tune with the GOD
remembering HIM day and night he has united with the lord ,he says again and again that there
first he talks how he should lower his gaze to search for the almighty within him and then he says no he should not lower his gaze but instead look for the beloved lord in each and every heart,though different topic altogether but i see kabir ji in mergence with the LORD
so another point why i dont think heaven ,hell or sachkhand is a physical place being reffered here
and about HELL no way i find it as a place to be tried for misdeeds from the shabad ,i see it rather a state of mind at which the TRUE LORD is forgotten.

If hell is really a place where one is tried for misdeeds and wrong doings then why few of the people go through tough times even when day and night they chant waheguru ,waheguru ?
 

spnadmin

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Sachkhand isn't in this life. If you were in Sachkhand, you would have been merged with Sri Vaheguru, do you think you are?

No! Do you not think that our Gurus and the bhagats had not found sachkhand in their lifetimes? Sachkhand is not a place on earth or anywhere else. It is a state that is true: it is a state of mind.

This is one of the many ways that Guru Nanak turned the world of brahminism on its head and rescued souls from the 84 lakh joon. You do not have to wait to die.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Further to my previous posts:

SGGS Page 736 Starting at Line 11:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.
The actor stages the play,
ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥ Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.
playing the many characters in different costumes;
ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ Sāʼng uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.
but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,
ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||
and then he is one, and only one. ||1||
ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥ Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.
How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?
ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1||
rahā▫o. Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||

This to me says:

The actor is the ONE - the creator
The creator is playing ALL of the characters (us) in this play (life)
But when the creator removes the costumes, we see that they were all really the same actor and not separate entities.
The characters in the play did not die... they were only transient personas that the actor played...
The 'experiencer' behind the characters eyes was the creator all along... that makes the question of death inconsequential. It makes the question of an afterlife inconsequential... because life and death are both illusions of perception. The ONE is everything, was always everything and always be everything.
 

Luckysingh

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Sachkhand isn't in this life. If you were in Sachkhand, you would have been merged with Sri Vaheguru, do you think you are?

LOL!:grinningsingh:
Your innocent humour Kamalaji always amuses me !
I know you are asking it with a serious intention and are not trying to come across as cheeky !:peacesign:I

Sachkhand can be a destination in the after life !.. why not ??
Some can probably experience the merge here too... again,why not ??
Is it a state of mind ??......Maybe, but not mine for sure as mine seems to overflow with the 5 thieves. That's why me and Akasha think that the mind is NOT me. There is another entity such as the soul/atma/consciousness that is 'timeless' that is the real me !!

I'm afraid no else seems to get this crazy assertion that we are making, maybe you need to experience an OBE to be convinced ??
:grinningsingh: I don't know, but it's not my aim to be convincing others anyway !
Like I say, you either get it or you don't.
We are here to discuss sikhi and gurbani and I think Guru Nanak ji taught us not be worried about afterlife and death but to focus on this very special god given time BETWEEN your birth and death.
If we focus on this as per gurbani then 'sachkhand' will happen no matter where it is !
 

Harkiran Kaur

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That's why me and Akasha think that the mind is NOT me. There is another entity such as the soul/atma/consciousness that is 'timeless' that is the real me !!

I'm afraid no else seems to get this crazy assertion that we are making, maybe you need to experience an OBE to be convinced ??
:grinningsingh: I don't know, but it's not my aim to be convincing others anyway !
Like I say, you either get it or you don't.

Apprently Jim Carrey gets it :peacesignkaur:

(this is actually a very good video... and very good description of what we are trying to say)

Jim Carrey Spiritual Awakening "We are all one" - YouTube
 

spnadmin

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I don't know if I am reacting to a wind-up or something else. However, it appears that everyone who needs to say something along the l ines of -- "It's the ONE. Get it? Some people get it. Some people don't get it. You have to ......to get it" or any clone of aforesaid -- has by now had a chance to say 'it.'

Any further repetition of this message will be considered spam and will be deleted without warning. Assuming that I am still awake to catch 'it.'
 

Luckysingh

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I don't know if I am reacting to a wind-up or something else. However, it appears that everyone who needs to say something along the l ines of -- "It's the ONE. Get it? Some people get it. Some people don't get it. You have to ......to get it" or any clone of aforesaid -- has by now had a chance to say 'it.'

Any further repetition of this message will be considered spam and will be deleted without warning. Assuming that I am still awake to catch 'it.'

I'm getting a little confused here or I am not understanding the conversation !
Or maybe I'm just getting the wrong idea ?
:singhfacepalm:
 

Tejwant Singh

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Spnadmin ji,

Guru Fateh.

Allow me to add something to what you have already said:

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
Kabīr bẖāʼng mācẖẖulī surā pān jo jo parānī kẖāʼnhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
Ŧirath baraṯ nem kī▫e ṯe sabẖai rasāṯal jāʼnhi. ||233||
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

In Kabeer's time, it was a common cultural understanding that men consumed marijuana, fish, alcohol and chewed paan-betal leaf which is laced with limestone paste and tobacco as aphrodisiacs before going to the dancers or prostitutes known as "Kothei walees" which literally means, women who live upstairs. All these actions took place on the upper levels of these kinds of houses so no one could see them from the street.

This is also the reason many "ignorant Sikh scholars" use this salok to claim that eating fish/meat is forbidden in Sikhi.

Kabeer is showing the hypocricy of these people by saying that they who consume aphrodisiacs to commit adultery, no matter how many religious rituals they follow to cleanse themselves with, their actions have already created a living hell for them.

Tejwant Singh
 
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Luckysingh

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Do you not think that our Gurus and the bhagats had not found sachkhand in their lifetimes? Sachkhand is not a place on earth or anywhere else. It is a state that is true: it is a state of mind.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/41257-sikhi-after-life-10.html

Maybe this is where i'm going wrong !!
I thought that it would be 'soul' and not 'mind'
Or do we not believe that a soul or some other entity exists that is not our mind ?(the mind i'm referring to is that associated with our physical brain-the thought processer)
 

Harry Haller

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Maybe this is where i'm going wrong !!
I thought that it would be 'soul' and not 'mind'
Or do we not believe that a soul or some other entity exists that is not our mind ?(the mind i'm referring to is that associated with our physical brain-the thought processer)

What is a soul? it is worthy of a thread in itself, it could be all the good in you, all the potential good in you? the highest level that you can be?

The word 'soul' has so many connotations, that to use it in an explanation only leaves that explanation open and unconclusive.

Does your soul hurt? Can you feel the pain in your soul? Maybe your soul is as real as my dear wolf, maybe your soul is nothing of the sort, a flowery description of something very simple.

The mind as associated with our physical brain is something else, it is real, it hurts, it feels pain, joy, so who are you? whatever is the sum total of your mind? or this mythical soul? If my soul goes onto Sachkhand after death, what happens to my mind? What happens to all my likes and dislikes? What use is it to me where my soul ends up?

I always felt that Sikhism was a way to grow your mind to the highest point you can, and then to utilise that growth to assist Creation, and along the way, to do the same, I find people hungry for salvation, for mukti, for a sight of Sachkhand a bit like those folks that stop you in the street to try and get you to sign a donation up. Some of them earn more than me, I asked one the other day, £25,000 is what he gets paid to solicit donations from the general public, so his interest is not the starving in Africa, he is just doing his job, and those that yearn for an afterlife, for a sight of God, to nestle in his lap and play with his beard, well, thats the goal, not the journey, the supreme connection that can be had right here and right now, is being exchanged for promises of untold joy that can never be, its chasing personal riches over connection.

As for getting 'it', well I am quite happy not to get it, if getting it is becoming a smug, self satisfied person obsessed with the thought of being one of the chosen few, well, frankly, you can stick 'it'.

Regarding the afterlife, after some thought, no one can truly know what happens after death, sure, we can all speculate, but no one can make any definitive statement, however, I live on the basis that I will be wormfood, but the truth is, after death, I could not care less, that is where the faith kicks in, I expect wormfood, because I refuse to allow my thinking to be compromised by the thought that this is all some big test, with Gods lap being the chief prize, we get back to the £25,000 charity collectors again,

I hope those concerned enjoy 'it' when they find 'it'
 
Jan 26, 2012
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dalsingh1zero1 ji,

I have no idea what you have in mind. For me Jap is like the necklace of Sikhi where each pauri is a bead strung together to create the necklace.

I'd agree. The necklace however is made up of a number of unique beads, each sharing different ideas which make up the whole.


I originally sought to mine the treasury of Jap for clues towards the Sikh idea of an after life but then I realised that it will essentially boil down to arguments over interpretation.

Seeing as some others are articulating views quite similar to my own better than I could, I'll bow out.

I need to do more studying and reflecting on the topic.
 

spnadmin

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Maybe this is where i'm going wrong !!
I thought that it would be 'soul' and not 'mind'
Or do we not believe that a soul or some other entity exists that is not our mind ?(the mind i'm referring to is that associated with our physical brain-the thought processer)


Does Guru Nanak have any soul taking a journey to sachkhand after physical death? Or are we making that up?

I used the term "state" of mind because a state can be either an actual location or a psychological/spiritual place. Leaving us with the question - are the khands spiritual states where the mind can be? We can check 1429 pannas of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to see where "munn" will be after death of the self.

If that is too much trouble, then we can resort to folklore that tells us where the soul will be after physical death.

To know whether Guru Nanak was referring to khands in a spiritual sense, have we looked carefully at how Guru Nanak then uses the idea of "khands" in the context of all shabads not single tuks?

Some because of their advanced spiritual attainment are naturally exempt from study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And dalsingh1zero1 has to be capturing something important, there will be differences in interpretation.

Guru Nanak himself said he did not know what happens after death. For me that is a huge clue. A huge clue as to whether it is the soul or the mind that goes to "sachkhand."
 
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Harkiran Kaur

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What is a soul? it is worthy of a thread in itself, it could be all the good in you, all the potential good in you? the highest level that you can be?

Does your soul hurt? Can you feel the pain in your soul? Maybe your soul is as real as my dear wolf, maybe your soul is nothing of the sort, a flowery description of something very simple.

The Soul to me, is that part of you which is the divine light... the self-conscious self-aware part of you that is the REAL you, the part that always was, is, and always will be. It is beyond time and the physical. Without the soul the physical body would be an empty shell with no 'experiencer' - not unlike a computer that has been programmed to do things and take in data - In Jim Carrey's video (I know not Sikhi directly related but it's a good illustration) he took a step back from his thoughts and asked "Who is the one that knows I am thinking?"

So of course the soul can not feel pain as in the physical sense... that is a purely physical attribute. But feel pain as in the pain of being separated from Waheguru Ji... of course. But then, that is not physical pain...

For me the mind and the soul are two different things... The mind is the tool the soul uses to interact with this world using the physical body as a vehicle. The mind allows the soul to interpret the physical surroundings, feel physical pain etc. But it is the soul that is the 'doer'.

For me, the physical body and mind are transient... the soul is the real me that always exists.
 

Harry Haller

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The Soul to me, is that part of you which is the divine light... the self-conscious self-aware part of you that is the REAL you, the part that always was, is, and always will be. It is beyond time and the physical. Without the soul the physical body would be an empty shell with no 'experiencer' - not unlike a computer that has been programmed to do things and take in data - In Jim Carrey's video (I know not Sikhi directly related but it's a good illustration) he took a step back from his thoughts and asked "Who is the one that knows I am thinking?"

So of course the soul can not feel pain as in the physical sense... that is a purely physical attribute. But feel pain as in the pain of being separated from Waheguru Ji... of course. But then, that is not physical pain...

For me the mind and the soul are two different things... The mind is the tool the soul uses to interact with this world using the physical body as a vehicle. The mind allows the soul to interpret the physical surroundings, feel physical pain etc. But it is the soul that is the 'doer'.

For me, the physical body and mind are transient... the soul is the real me that always exists.

if you could clear up something I would be hugely grateful.

you write

The Soul to me, is that part of you which is the divine light... the self-conscious self-aware part of you that is the REAL you, the part that always was, is, and always will be. It is beyond time and the physical

Ok, I can run with this, what you call Soul, I call man, devoid of all desires, and perfect, it is the good angel on my shoulder, however

you then write

So of course the soul can not feel pain as in the physical sense... that is a purely physical attribute. But feel pain as in the pain of being separated from Waheguru Ji... of course. But then, that is not physical pain...

this confuses me, your above description of the Soul sounds pretty perfect, like it is already merged with Waheguruji, or at least it represents it in some way, as a drop represents the ocean, but at what point is it seperated from Waheguruji that it would feel this non physical pain?
 

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