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Islam Sikh-Muslim Marriages

Randip Singh

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May 25, 2005
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J.A.T.T said:
By any chance, did the discussion take place on this website?

Just for the record, Jatt is not really a farmer/landlord caste, but more of an ethic tribe.





Actually the Zamindari System existed until after partition in India. There was still a Zamindari System during the British era in India.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamindar"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamindar[/URL]

...answer to first point....no was an essay I read....may have been www.sikhe.net or on one of the sikh studies websites...I'll have a look.

Whether Jatts are one ethinic tribe is debatable, as customs apprrance from Western Punjabi Jatts, to Eastern Punjabi Jatts, to MP and UP Jatts, to Harayanvi Jatts etc are so varied.

That wikipedia article is wrong......especially for Punjab. You need to read more my friend....Wikipedia is the most innacurate source of information on the web. Read up on the reforms of Bandha Bahadhur and Maharaj Ranjit Singh. Infact there was a massive Jatt influx into Sikhism under Mahraja Ranjit Singh and then later under the British because of land reforms and land being given to Jatts (most of whom were either smallholders or tenants).......and as you know land is the life blood of Punjab. Read : The Khalsa over 300 Years edited by JS Grewal and Indu Banga.......in particular Agrarian System of Ranjit Singh - Indu Banga and The Jagirdari System of Ranjit Singh - Indu Banga
 
May 10, 2006
52
1
Tell you what...

I am a Sikh and where I live (India-God bless Her) I have noticed that many Sikh have begun raising a similar question. Only in India it's never a Muslim and by neven I mean never. It's usually a dhobi,
rikshaw-driver, news-paperwalla(always a Hindu)...Sikh are asking why ???????

I will tell you...To the Sikh girl anyone will do, never a Muslim though, as long as they know they are
not leaving one Sikh family to join another. That's it. They are fedup with Sikh men , father's and brother's...
They want to get away...

Thats what it is...

But if in London and Toronto they are running away with muslims I will say that the Sikh in the west
are good for nothing. By marrying a Hindu you atleast continue to be a part of the extented
Hindu-family, but if they are marrying Muslims...In India they don't drink water in a Muslim restaurant...


Could it be spiritual bankruptcy on the part of the Sikh in the west have adopted ??

Thanks.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

If say das marries a Muslim lady,she will still worship Allah as Akal but if Das has to marry a hindu lady then she will not be worshipping God of Sikhs but her own demigods,whose(demigods) place in Sikhism is lower then humans
 

J.A.T.T

SPNer
May 7, 2006
92
4
Brampton, Ontario
vijaydeep Singh said:
Gurfateh

Well he is from gnostic church and is a great man anyway,lives in reading UK and wants to be like hitler sayiing jatts like Aryans and Khatris like jews.

Das is often afraid of him.

http://www.likhari.org/xmas2.htm

www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm

Wow! This is news to me!

Anyway, it is wrong for Choudhari Nijjer to put down other communities and consider them to be inferior to us Jatts. I hope he doesn’t have a lot of supporters in the UK.

I personally will never support people like Nijjer.
 

J.A.T.T

SPNer
May 7, 2006
92
4
Brampton, Ontario
randip singh said:
...answer to first point....no was an essay I read....may have been www.sikhe.net or on one of the sikh studies websites...I'll have a look.

Whether Jatts are one ethinic tribe is debatable, as customs apprrance from Western Punjabi Jatts, to Eastern Punjabi Jatts, to MP and UP Jatts, to Harayanvi Jatts etc are so varied.

That wikipedia article is wrong......especially for Punjab. You need to read more my friend....Wikipedia is the most innacurate source of information on the web. Read up on the reforms of Bandha Bahadhur and Maharaj Ranjit Singh. Infact there was a massive Jatt influx into Sikhism under Mahraja Ranjit Singh and then later under the British because of land reforms and land being given to Jatts (most of whom were either smallholders or tenants).......and as you know land is the life blood of Punjab. Read : The Khalsa over 300 Years edited by JS Grewal and Indu Banga.......in particular Agrarian System of Ranjit Singh - Indu Banga and The Jagirdari System of Ranjit Singh - Indu Banga

Fair Enough.

I will check out those articles/books that you recommend me to read.


By the way, if you don’t like the “Zamindari System” article on that Wikipedia website, then you can always edit their article to make it more accurate.
 

J.A.T.T

SPNer
May 7, 2006
92
4
Brampton, Ontario
bulleshah said:
Tell you what...

I am a Sikh and where I live (India-God bless Her) I have noticed that many Sikh have begun raising
a similar question. Only in India it's never a Muslim and by neven I mean never. It's usually a dhobi,
rikshaw-driver, news-paperwalla(always a Hindu)...Sikh are asking why ???????

I will tell you...To the Sikh girl anyone will do, never a Muslim though, as long as they know they are
not leaving one Sikh family to join another. That's it. They are fedup with Sikh men , father's and brother's...
They want to get away...

Thats what it is...

But if in London and Toronto they are running away with muslims I will say that the Sikh in the west
are good for nothing. By marrying a Hindu you atleast continue to be a part of the extented
Hindu-family, but if they are marrying Muslims...In India they don't drink water in a Muslim restaurant...


Could it be spiritual bankruptcy on the part of the Sikh in the west have adopted ??

Thanks.

So you are basically saying that Sikh women will marry anybody as long it's not a Muslim or Sikh??????

If so, then this means that Sikh women in India will most likely marry a Hindu.

All I have to say about this is wow! I am shocked to hear about this happening in India.


Anyway, I don’t know about the UK, but here in Toronto (Canada), Muslim women (especially the Pakistani ones) do date/marry Sikh men (usually the clean shaven/non-turban wearing Sikhs). It is kind of common to see a Muslim woman dating a Sikh man here in Toronto.

Just for the record, Sikhi is separate religion. It isn’t a sect of Hinduism nor is it an extended family of Hinduism.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
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May 25, 2005
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J.A.T.T said:
Fair Enough.

I will check out those articles/books that you recommend me to read.


By the way, if you don’t like the “Zamindari System” article on that Wikipedia website, then you can always edit their article to make it more accurate.

I don't know whether I want to change any articles there. It looks as if people change things there they dont like on a whim.

One point to note the Zamindari system still existed after 1850 outside Punjab. The one stroke of genious by Bandha Bahadhur and Maharaja Ranjit Singh was that they said, those that work the land should own the land. As a result of this people consider themselves to have a stake in ther own land and worked harder. So no longer was the Zamidar the owner, but the Jagurdar (person who ploughed the land became the owner). In time the Jagirdars started to refer to themselves as Zamindars.......how odd is that ehh.

This owning of the land would explain how Punjab became the bread basket of India......and other agricultural regions lagged behind (and still do).
 
May 10, 2006
52
1
vijaydeepsingh,

If by 'demi-Gods' you are referring to idol worship let me state that
there is no community anywhere in the world that's doesn't indulge in
some kind of idol-worship. We Sikh's also do that.

We find the Jutti of any Guru we start bowing from a 100 yards to pay
our respect . If some body found some stone at some place and said
that these are the stones which one of the Guru's used in Modi Khana,
we build Big Gurdwawa's and Mela's are held and the stones are worshipped.
If some body said that Guru Gobind Singh drank milk in a holed Jug
we spend loads of money to pay homage.

The image in the temple brings to the mind of the devotees their chosen
aspect of God. They do not worship the wood, stone or earth of which the
deity is made from. The idol remains an idol but the worship goes to the
Lord. A symbol is absolutely indispensable for fixing the mind. The mind
wants a prop to lean upon. It cannot have a conception of the Absolute
without something to focus on. Without the help of some external aid
the mind cannot be centralized. The people of the whole world are all
worshipers of idols. They keep some image or other in the mind".

The Christian cross with Jesus hanging on it, or statues of Mother Mary
and Saint Theresa, or the holy Kabaa in Mecca, or the Adigranth enshrined
in the Golden Temple in Amritsar, or the Arc and the Torah of the Jews,
the image of a meditating Buddha, the totems of the indigenous faiths
(the so-called primitive faiths throughout the world), the artifacts of
the many holy men of all religions. All these graven images are stood
before in awe by the followers of these religions. The tooth of the Buddha
in Sri Lankan, The juti of Guru Nanak, in Nanded, the holed jug the Guru
drank from etc. are loved and respected image. All religions have their
symbols of holiness. But Hindus alone have the courage to admit that fact.

Thanks.
 
May 10, 2006
52
1
J.A.T.T

>>>>So you are basically saying that Sikh women will marry anybody
as long it's not a Muslim or Sikh??????<<<<

No. As long as they are not one of those Sant Sipahi clowns who look
like some laden/bhinrdrawalla...

- -
- -

>>>>If so, then this means that Sikh women in India will most likely
marry a Hindu.<<<<


Yes. I know I live in india and know better about my community.
My own sister is married to a Tamil. Not that there was any pressure
on her to marry some keshdhari though my father is not just kesh
but also amritdhari. The complete works...

- -
- -

>>>>All I have to say about this is wow! I am shocked to hear about
this happening in India.<<<<

You will be further shocked when you learn that 90 percent of sikh boys and
girls don't really give two hoots to all those 'Do-this-dont-do-that' Hukamnaama's.
But we are neither shocked nor complaining.

- -
- -

>>>>Anyway, I don’t know about the UK, but here in Toronto (Canada),
Muslim women (especially the Pakistani ones) do date/marry Sikh men
(usually the clean shaven/non-turban wearing Sikhs). It is kind of common
to see a Muslim woman dating a Sikh man here in Toronto.<<<<


OK...thats because they want to make sure that they don't end up marrying
someone who will look like Zarkawi/bhindrawalla in the future.
Being clean-shaven and to to look good when nude is important.


- -
- -

>>>Just for the record, Sikhi is separate religion. It isn’t a sect of Hinduism
nor is it an extended family of Hinduism.<<<<

The Sikhism Akali Neo-Sikh talk about is nothing more than coffe-shop Sikhism
that originated not in India through Nanak but in coffe-shops of London and
Toronto frequented by ISI sympathisers.

In an article on punjabilok.com an author whose name
strangely the site doesn't provide says :

"Sikhism is known as the religion founded by Guru Nanak who was born in 1469 A.D.
It is commonly understood as a compromise between the teachings of Hinduism
and Islam. But a careful study of Sikh traditions and relics of Sikhism lead to an
irrefutable conclusion that Guru Nanak discarded the Hindu doctrines and assimilated
the teachings of Islam to such an extent that Sikhism, in its pristine form, can be
looked upon as a sect of Islam."
http://www.punjabilok.com/misc/freedom/way_of_khaalsa.htm

What is used to separate Sikhism from Hinduism is a distorted straw-man interpretation
of Hinduism. This is where we need to bring balance by emphasizing democratic Sikhi.

The anti-Hindu venom of Neo-Sikh is not essentially a Sikh response, for there are at least
two Brahmins in SGPS, but the frustrated rant of the hidden Jatt in the garb of a Sikh.
He wants to settle the score for his past low social position for which he regards
Brahmin and Hinduism as the responsible parties(rightly or wrongly).

Thanks.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,949
55
United Kingdom

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,949
55
United Kingdom
bulleshah said:
J.A.T.T

>>>>So you are basically saying that Sikh women will marry anybody
as long it's not a Muslim or Sikh??????<<<<

No. As long as they are not one of those Sant Sipahi clowns who look
like some laden/bhinrdrawalla...

- -
- -

>>>>If so, then this means that Sikh women in India will most likely
marry a Hindu.<<<<


Yes. I know I live in india and know better about my community.
My own sister is married to a Tamil. Not that there was any pressure
on her to marry some keshdhari though my father is not just kesh
but also amritdhari. The complete works...

- -
- -

>>>>All I have to say about this is wow! I am shocked to hear about
this happening in India.<<<<

You will be further shocked when you learn that 90 percent of sikh boys and
girls don't really give two hoots to all those 'Do-this-dont-do-that' Hukamnaama's.
But we are neither shocked nor complaining.

- -
- -

>>>>Anyway, I don’t know about the UK, but here in Toronto (Canada),
Muslim women (especially the Pakistani ones) do date/marry Sikh men
(usually the clean shaven/non-turban wearing Sikhs). It is kind of common
to see a Muslim woman dating a Sikh man here in Toronto.<<<<


OK...thats because they want to make sure that they don't end up marrying
someone who will look like Zarkawi/bhindrawalla in the future.
Being clean-shaven and to to look good when nude is important.


- -
- -

>>>Just for the record, Sikhi is separate religion. It isn’t a sect of Hinduism
nor is it an extended family of Hinduism.<<<<

The Sikhism Akali Neo-Sikh talk about is nothing more than coffe-shop Sikhism
that originated not in India through Nanak but in coffe-shops of London and
Toronto frequented by ISI sympathisers.

In an article on punjabilok.com an author whose name
strangely the site doesn't provide says :

"Sikhism is known as the religion founded by Guru Nanak who was born in 1469 A.D.
It is commonly understood as a compromise between the teachings of Hinduism
and Islam. But a careful study of Sikh traditions and relics of Sikhism lead to an
irrefutable conclusion that Guru Nanak discarded the Hindu doctrines and assimilated
the teachings of Islam to such an extent that Sikhism, in its pristine form, can be
looked upon as a sect of Islam."
http://www.punjabilok.com/misc/freedom/way_of_khaalsa.htm

What is used to separate Sikhism from Hinduism is a distorted straw-man interpretation
of Hinduism. This is where we need to bring balance by emphasizing democratic Sikhi.

The anti-Hindu venom of Neo-Sikh is not essentially a Sikh response, for there are at least
two Brahmins in SGPS, but the frustrated rant of the hidden Jatt in the garb of a Sikh.
He wants to settle the score for his past low social position for which he regards
Brahmin and Hinduism as the responsible parties(rightly or wrongly).

Thanks.

The flip side to Neo_Sikhism is New Age Brahmanism.....a drive to make Sikhism closer to Hinduism, i.e. promote statute worship, meaningless ritual, vegetarianism etc etc. :whisling:
 

J.A.T.T

SPNer
May 7, 2006
92
4
Brampton, Ontario
bulleshah said:
J.A.T.T

>>>>So you are basically saying that Sikh women will marry anybody
as long it's not a Muslim or Sikh??????<<<<

No. As long as they are not one of those Sant Sipahi clowns who look
like some laden/bhinrdrawalla...

- -
- -

>>>>If so, then this means that Sikh women in India will most likely
marry a Hindu.<<<<


Yes. I know I live in india and know better about my community.
My own sister is married to a Tamil. Not that there was any pressure
on her to marry some keshdhari though my father is not just kesh
but also amritdhari. The complete works...

- -
- -

>>>>All I have to say about this is wow! I am shocked to hear about
this happening in India.<<<<

You will be further shocked when you learn that 90 percent of sikh boys and
girls don't really give two hoots to all those 'Do-this-dont-do-that' Hukamnaama's.
But we are neither shocked nor complaining.

- -
- -

>>>>Anyway, I don’t know about the UK, but here in Toronto (Canada),
Muslim women (especially the Pakistani ones) do date/marry Sikh men
(usually the clean shaven/non-turban wearing Sikhs). It is kind of common
to see a Muslim woman dating a Sikh man here in Toronto.<<<<


OK...thats because they want to make sure that they don't end up marrying
someone who will look like Zarkawi/bhindrawalla in the future.
Being clean-shaven and to to look good when nude is important.


- -
- -

>>>Just for the record, Sikhi is separate religion. It isn’t a sect of Hinduism
nor is it an extended family of Hinduism.<<<<

The Sikhism Akali Neo-Sikh talk about is nothing more than coffe-shop Sikhism
that originated not in India through Nanak but in coffe-shops of London and
Toronto frequented by ISI sympathisers.

In an article on punjabilok.com an author whose name
strangely the site doesn't provide says :

"Sikhism is known as the religion founded by Guru Nanak who was born in 1469 A.D.
It is commonly understood as a compromise between the teachings of Hinduism
and Islam. But a careful study of Sikh traditions and relics of Sikhism lead to an
irrefutable conclusion that Guru Nanak discarded the Hindu doctrines and assimilated
the teachings of Islam to such an extent that Sikhism, in its pristine form, can be
looked upon as a sect of Islam."
http://www.punjabilok.com/misc/freedom/way_of_khaalsa.htm

What is used to separate Sikhism from Hinduism is a distorted straw-man interpretation
of Hinduism. This is where we need to bring balance by emphasizing democratic Sikhi.

The anti-Hindu venom of Neo-Sikh is not essentially a Sikh response, for there are at least
two Brahmins in SGPS, but the frustrated rant of the hidden Jatt in the garb of a Sikh.
He wants to settle the score for his past low social position for which he regards
Brahmin and Hinduism as the responsible parties(rightly or wrongly).

Thanks.

You need to be careful what you are saying. I don’t know how bad or good the situation is in the Jat-Sikh community in your country (India), but here in Canada, Jat-Sikhs are one of most successful South Asian community you can find in Canada. Hindus in Canada are socially and politically inferior to the Canadian Sikh community. Also I like to point out that a lot of “high caste” Hindu women (like Muslim women) do love us Sikh men as well (especially the Jat-Sikhs). In fact, I personally know Hindu women who come from high caste background that only date Sikh men and prefer to marry a Sikh only instead of a Hindu or Muslim.

For the record, Canadian Sikhs are NOT ISI sympathisers.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh
bulleshah said:
vijaydeepsingh,

If by 'demi-Gods' you are referring to idol worship let me state that
there is no community anywhere in the world that's doesn't indulge in
some kind of idol-worship. We Sikh's also do that.

We find the Jutti of any Guru we start bowing from a 100 yards to pay
our respect . If some body found some stone at some place and said
that these are the stones which one of the Guru's used in Modi Khana,
we build Big Gurdwawa's and Mela's are held and the stones are worshipped.
If some body said that Guru Gobind Singh drank milk in a holed Jug
we spend loads of money to pay homage.

The image in the temple brings to the mind of the devotees their chosen
aspect of God. They do not worship the wood, stone or earth of which the
deity is made from. The idol remains an idol but the worship goes to the
Lord. A symbol is absolutely indispensable for fixing the mind. The mind
wants a prop to lean upon. It cannot have a conception of the Absolute
without something to focus on. Without the help of some external aid
the mind cannot be centralized. The people of the whole world are all
worshipers of idols. They keep some image or other in the mind".

The Christian cross with Jesus hanging on it, or statues of Mother Mary
and Saint Theresa, or the holy Kabaa in Mecca, or the Adigranth enshrined
in the Golden Temple in Amritsar, or the Arc and the Torah of the Jews,
the image of a meditating Buddha, the totems of the indigenous faiths
(the so-called primitive faiths throughout the world), the artifacts of
the many holy men of all religions. All these graven images are stood
before in awe by the followers of these religions. The tooth of the Buddha
in Sri Lankan, The juti of Guru Nanak, in Nanded, the holed jug the Guru
drank from etc. are loved and respected image. All religions have their
symbols of holiness. But Hindus alone have the courage to admit that fact.

Thanks.

Bro,

If some 'sikh' goes to worship Kirtam or artificial thing say even Holy Book then he is on the way of Khalsa and did not reach the stage.

We are told to not to disrespect the faith of others and can say idolaltor or worshipper of demigods without image also may get salvation by will of our Akal God but these idols have been weakness of your forefather and lead to often divisions in you and ultimate defeat,and process is still on in Bengal,Srii lankaKashmeer ,Pakistan etc.

Say some one does a sin and yet commits then it is not a praise worthy.

Guru told about Hindus worshipping stone,These stone worshipper have mind like stone and one day my Khalsa will break thier Devals and idols (Sau Sakhi).

TAs per Sevdas Udasi book Idols are there to increase ego.Das is from Nirmala Akhara and we allow Hindus to have temple in our Gurudwara but is not that shamefull when Holy Veda states that God has no image and we put life in image by Pran Pratishata.

Das can give you list of Sikhs on this forum itslef do not do idol worship say 1.DR Khalsa
2.Gyani Jarnail Singh
3.Manbeer Singh
4.Plamba
5.Amarpal Singh
6.Soorma
7.akali Sodi
8Randip singh and list goes on.

Das use to live with a Tamil Brahmin family and they use to eat beef.so by this logoc das should say that Hindus must eat beef and As Sikh Das admits to eat beef inspite of being an ex Hindu.

In fact das tells Hindus to save cow and do not go against thier Faith as Guru in past did not like Brahmins who ate meat and rather rewarded for Brahmins,who inspite of various say allurment did not get out of thier Dharma and did not ate meat.

Das realy doubt if you are a Sikh of at least Akal Purakh,So far you seeem to have reached the level of Sikhi of lving Gurus but that is not the True Sikhi,Stay with us and learn more from missionaries on this site.

Thier views will help you to reque your Hindu brethren from various inner and outer evils and Das could see that you have love for Hindu brothers.Best thing to help them ios to take them to Sanatan Dhamra and let them get out of Hinduism.

Visit udasi.org
 
May 10, 2006
52
1
vijaydeepsingh,

>>>>We are told to not to disrespect the faith of others and can say idolaltor or worshipper
of demigods without image also may get salvation by will of our Akal God but these idols have
been weakness of your forefather and lead to often divisions in you and ultimate defeat, and
process is still on in Bengal,Srii lankaKashmeer ,Pakistan etc.<<<<


Then how come we can continue to call idolatory fooloish. We may not agree with it
but don't you think we need to remember that for those who indulge in idol worship
it's very important. Just as the lenght of the 'kachcha' is for the Khalsa Sant Sipahi.
Read

>>>>Guru told about Hindus worshipping stone,These stone worshipper have mind
like stone and one day my Khalsa will break thier Devals and idols (Sau Sakhi).<<<<

What about 'modi khana' ?? And say, is not the Golden Temple made of the same stone
the Hindu idol is made of. I see no difference except a Gurudwara is a Rs. crores+ stone idol
and the Hindu idol costs few hundred and could be carried anywhere in ones pocket.
Even to the toilet. Why they even sell Geeta on the gutter-side book stores.
Can the Neo-Sikh match that ??

>>>> is not that shamefull when Holy Veda states that God has no image and we put life
in image by Pran Pratishata. <<<<

What's wrong with that. I don't even know what exactly it means but one thing I do know
that all life is the outcome of the configuration of matter.

Besides the Veda's say many things.
"Ekam Sat, Viprah Bahudha Vadanti".
(There is only one truth, only men describe it in different ways).
- - -The Rig Veda - - -

Thanks.

NASADIYA
The creation Hymn of the Rig Veda


There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?
There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.
Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.
Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.
Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whence this creation has arisen
perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know.

 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh
bulleshah said:
vijaydeepsingh,

>>>>We are told to not to disrespect the faith of others and can say idolaltor or worshipper
of demigods without image also may get salvation by will of our Akal God but these idols have
been weakness of your forefather and lead to often divisions in you and ultimate defeat, and
process is still on in Bengal,Srii lankaKashmeer ,Pakistan etc.<<<<


Then how come we can continue to call idolatory fooloish. We may not agree with it
but don't you think we need to remember that for those who indulge in idol worship
it's very important. Just as the lenght of the 'kachcha' is for the Khalsa Sant Sipahi.
Read
Bro if some one is foolsih say a child is eating mud,and we tell him or her to do not act foolish then it may not mean that we disrespect him or her

Coming to Kacherha matter ,rember people you are tlaking about only are small part of us.Say if hindu breaks idol so should das tell you also to break idol and still calll your self Hindu?

>>>>Guru told about Hindus worshipping stone,These stone worshipper have mind
like stone and one day my Khalsa will break thier Devals and idols (Sau Sakhi).<<<<

What about 'modi khana' ?? And say, is not the Golden Temple made of the same stone
the Hindu idol is made of. I see no difference except a Gurudwara is a Rs. crores+ stone idol
and the Hindu idol costs few hundred and could be carried anywhere in ones pocket.
Even to the toilet. Why they even sell Geeta on the gutter-side book stores.
Can the Neo-Sikh match that ??

Bro


Das has hear about modi Khana thing from you only otherwise das even did not know about it nor was ever thought.

Darbar Sahihb which is not a blody Temple but more like a Church as still in mnay of your temples lower castes are not allowed(there too in past theu wewre not allowed tilllw e did not throw out the idols in to durgiana)and even White Hindu convert recently still was not allowed in your temple in orrrisa,And she had Hindu husband.Brothers wfie of das is also Hindu converted from Rusian orthodox and can you let any such reform happen in your Temples.
Values of Gold of that Church is more in the eys of greedy people and so far the offfering.
but you need to understand that Guru Gobinid Singh Ji never visisted that Darbar Sahib.

That value das or nay Khalsaa has for place or obeject ,what are you talking man.

Say if nation or mnakind will be in trouble,Sikhs will ot hestate to remove gold from there and stone from there to serve them.

But how many of your Hindus have taken mony from Pandit of Katari oh sorry Trupati Ji,where still nearby missioaniers are up to convert most of the lower caste say Gilur Taluka of Praksaham District or say Cuddappa.


look for your own introspection before commenting on others.
>>>> is not that shamefull when Holy Veda states that God has no image and we put life
in image by Pran Pratishata. <<<<

What's wrong with that. I don't even know what exactly it means but one thing I do know
that all life is the outcome of the configuration of matter.

Besides the Veda's say many things.
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]"Ekam Sat, Viprah Bahudha Vadanti".[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif](There is only one truth, only men describe it in different ways).[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]- - -The Rig Veda - - -[/FONT]
Das give you full in sanskrit

Devo na Partimah

and Pursh Evad Sravada,when Akal is in all and no image then why to defyTruth.

As per our Guru during Satiyuga ,in world(Brahma Varta) only worship of Akal was done.Idol worship is mark of kaliyug.

Idolatory is more from jains and budhsit which has made you weak and you still want to stick to your weakness.


bro problem is that you do not know what Pandits say in mantra and some time they also do n ot know what they say.

Same is true for some Sikhs but had either of them understand the meaning then idolatory be it of idol ofr be it of Guru Granth Sahib Ji will stop.Even if Sanatan Dharmi scriputre are read and understood.
if you feed stone idol and will feel increae in ego and fulfilment of duty towards creator.


Gurmat tells us to see Creaotr in creation and serve creation insted.
1. be fair in busness.
2.serve world as Akal is in world.

Be it idol or Birh just ritualism towrads that is wrong.(das is givng excretps from what Tenth Master said to Hindus in Mela or fair of Kurukshetra and they are as per oral tradtions of Sans and later recored in Sau Sakhi).


Crux as folows

Many idols and many differnt Gods so unity of various races or region may not occur.
Das wants ot say that even your demigods may fight themselves.

Vishnu was defeated by Shiv Bhakt Dadhichi and Krishna defeated Shiva in war of Banasur.

Das saw Vaishnav Bramin refused to enter Shivalaya in Andhra while das use to go there in evening to meditate.

Idol is limted and can be broken and moral can go low.God which is limitless can not be broken and gives us limitless power if we think of that.


If you want that can help you how.
Rember hwta Das is saying is here since the time of Lord Rama and Krishna and due to Budhists and Jains Nam Abhyas and Hinsa was taken away from Aryans and they became iodlators Hindus.

In Pran Prtishta devotee gives life to demigod in idol.Is that not non sense and makes God weak.


We have many examples of idol wroshippers gaining Salvation but thing here is that with idolaroty can we be able to let our coming generation also attain salvation or wil they be left away from Dharam,They may change one idol into cross or Mecca and fiaht wll be weaken.


Only one God can unite humanity.InPast whole world was ruled by Arya(Civilsed) and was called Brahmavarta(enciralement of matter) but due to varity of Gods did unity was broken and Aryans were elmianted.

Hindu term in fact only symbolsysis the defeat of restrction to indus only.We have to regain what we have Lost but for that we have to go for that one God of Vedas.

That only clrely writtan in Veda is Indra,Varuna or Yama etc.

Even Rudra or Ganpati of Veda is same God but you make image of the same and make same factor of unity as factor of division,yet want to retain it.

If you want even for one try to think of that God who is everywehre in all in you and out of you with full concentration.Even think that you demigod is not restricted to one form but has been in whole of the forms.Just for onces and then tell das about your expiriance.

The way toys by children are behold to be true and samller books in child hood are tolrated so we can tolrate idols and demigods but thing here is that we are been told that such things are OK.Only for that who has so far not met Khalsa.
Thanks.





NASADIYA
The creation Hymn of the Rig Veda

There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?

There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.

Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.

Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.

Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.

Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?

Whence this creation has arisen
perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know.









man have you pondered upon this tranlation ,while in Vedanta we have more deep meanigs in Sanskrit.

such things of creation keeps on happening.Has God had form and was creator then which place did he stod to create and who made it.

Say space is also eternal,then space is facotr other then God but demision of that space came after God came into exstance but that God still ocupied some space and neeeeded space to exist but that God who is dependant on sapce can not be omoni potant God.

God is beyond Sapce,time and matter.And if you will be like us you will understand it soon.
 
May 10, 2006
52
1
vijaydeepsingh,

HTML:
Has God had form and was creator then which place did he stod to create
and who made it.

That's a question and not an answer. Every adjective the Granth uses to describe
the Supreme is nothing but abstract. The answer there ever could be, as far as our
perception is concerned, is "Who Knows". And the answer is nobody can tell. one
can quarrel or argue over who created it and when etc....But the real question is "Why".
Why did God take the trouble to create??
Why does the universe take trouble to exist ??
Does it really need a creator ?? If yes who created Him ??

Scriptures that claim to know the answer are wrong. I don't think Guru Granth
provides any answer either. Nor does it claim to.

God is simply energy. Buddha was right. And he never even attempt to answer as to
where the energy came from. Why bother ?? Just be. don't try to become.

Thanks.
 

sehmbi

SPNer
Apr 15, 2005
5
0
57
LONDON
Stop quarrelling and let the Guru guide you.

Karamsar Punjabi School is holding a Raag Kirtan Durbar at Gurudwara Karamsar , Ilford, to celebrate the parkash of Guru Amardas Ji on the 27th of May 2006 from 6.00 pm to 12.00 midnite. Participants include Harkirat Singh of chakardar.com All are welcome. Further info: www.karamsar.co.uk , For directions : http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&search_result=&db=pc&cidr _client=none&lang=&keepicon=true&pc=IG11TW&advance d=&client=public&addr2=&quicksearch=IG1%2B1TW&addr 3=&addr1=
 
Dec 8, 2005
241
12
vijaydeep Singh said:
Gurfateh

Well he is from gnostic church and is a great man anyway,lives in reading UK and wants to be like hitler sayiing jatts like Aryans and Khatris like jews.

dear vijaydeep


SSAKAL

This is a extremely naive comparision.
It lacks knowledge of sikh principles.
We dont have caste amongst ourselves.

Jews and aryans concepts are the worst period of europeons history.
Mankind's head hangs in shame at these references. Punjab has its own history they dont need comparison from europe . We make our own history.

So when you make a statement please do some pondering .

sikhs and the whole mankind are one.

these difference dont enter the head of a true sikh.

with love

hps62
 

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