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Sehajdharis Seek Separate SGPC If Voting Right Denied

Do You Think the Idea of a Separate SGPC for Sehajdhari Sikhs Practical? Please share your views.


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japjisahib04

Mentor
SPNer
Jan 22, 2005
822
1,294
kuwait
Every now and then these issues creep up....and real motive behind all these issues is nothing but love for leadership.

And Easiest leadership comes pre-embedded with "Divide and Rule" policy.

Religion has nothing to do with these issues, and to solve these problems nothing more is required than common sense.

but as someone said, "There are millions of scamps around, but I have not met a single one who accepts it"
You are right it is all leadership and attempt to misrepresent the whole motive behind. These people always support 80 percent who have forsaken gursikhi. I wonder once you have divorced, still calling yourselves as married is just like 'tu maan na maan, mai tera mehman'. It was your own choice and not that by birthyou are born outclassed, the belief as is prevalent These people are, ' na oh suhaagan na oh rand'. like rolling stone, they neither are married nor widowed, thus are guilty. You have chosen your way of life. We don;t interfere in your business. Let us live the way our guru have guided and elevated us from downdrown to khandel bhatey ki pahul. Similarly 80% of Hindu population are so called 'DALIT' who are treated worse than animals and are deprived of many facilities, but still when it comes for numbering, they count in full as Hindus.
Best regards
 

PCJ

Mar 26, 2008
91
8
Fremont, California
Again as usual ranting. You believe what you are speaking is the truth so it
must be truth.Same as a muslim say that What i am speaking about the islam is the truth.Is there any difference between you and fanatic muslim?Both Believe they are speaking the truth

As far reservation is concerned Only 50% of seats are reserved for sikh students and that too in technical and medical college's.In schools there is hardly any reservation and in many non sikh area's a very large majority of students are sikhs.My mamaji himself is Gurdwara president in small town of Assam and the school they run their benefits assamese kids.Your blaming about 100% seats reserved only show how ignorant you are.

I stated:
As far as people in Sikh schools go, 100% of the seats allowed by the Gov't. to be reserved for Sikhs are reserved for Amritdhari and sehajdhari Sikhs.

I deliberately worded it this way so that you could see where I was coming from. But it seems like you only saw 100% and jumped on the conclusion that I was wrong because you were only thinking about 50%.

But no worries, I am not giving up on you people, at least not just yet unless of course you ban me. I know sooner or later, you people will ban but I will understand, it's just human nature.

The fact is Sikhs are allowed by the Gov't. to reserve 50% of the seats for Sikhs. Since Sikhs are reserving all (100%) of the 50% allowed to be reserved for Sikhs for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis, it's a true statement that 100% of the seats allowed by the Gov't. to be reserved for Sikhs are reserved for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis.

So, let further explain where I was coming. Since Sikhs reserve 100% of seats allowed to be reserved for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis, it clearly shows that they are reserving maximum number of seats for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis. So, if they were allowed to reserve 100% of the seats, they would reserve them for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis only.

I don't know if people of other religions do the same, assuming that you are right, it only shows that people of other religions are doing it wrong as well and this only further proves that religion is bad for humanity in this category.

But look at who is at loss in this whole reservation deal. It seems like monas are the only who are not part of any reservatin quota and only because they were born in Sikh households.

Also, I don't see how people of other religions deny priviledge to the reservation as long as the candidates declare them to part of those religions. But among Sikhs, monas are denied any rights even if they claim to be Sikhs.

What's even worse is that the chances are that the people of other religions at least don't discriminate against the people whom they financially support their religious places, but Sikhs dicriminate against monas, the same people who financially support Gurdwaras.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
I deliberately worded it this way so that you could see where I was coming from. But it seems like you only saw 100% and jumped on the conclusion that I was wrong because you were only thinking about 50%.

But no worries, I am not giving up on you people, at least not just yet unless of course you ban me. I know sooner or later, you people will ban but I will understand, it's just human nature.

The fact is Sikhs are allowed by the Gov't. to reserve 50% of the seats for Sikhs. Since Sikhs are reserving all (100%) of the 50% allowed to be reserved for Sikhs for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis, it's a true statement that 100% of the seats allowed by the Gov't. to be reserved for Sikhs are reserved for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis.

So, let further explain where I was coming. Since Sikhs reserve 100% of seats allowed to be reserved for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis, it clearly shows that they are reserving maximum number of seats for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis. So, if they were allowed to reserve 100% of the seats, they would reserve them for Amritdharis and Sehajdharis only.

You were talking about schools ,it was me who wrote about college's.How cleverly you are skipping the point that large number of sikh schools provide education to all kind of students.Now coming to reservation any community,state when put its own resources then they want that first benefit should go to their own people,now if sikhs want to do that
what's the problem?

But look at who is at loss in this whole reservation deal. It seems like monas are the only who are not part of any reservatin quota and only because they were born in Sikh households.

Also, I don't see how people of other religions deny priviledge to the reservation as long as the candidates declare them to part of those religions. But among Sikhs, monas are denied any rights even if they claim to be Sikhs.

First of al majority religion Hindu's are not allowed to reserve seats as very large percentage of students in most of college's are hindu's.Now coming to your point about Mona's It is also for the benefit for the sikh community.If the right to admission in reserved
seats were extended to Mona's then very large number of Punjabi hindu's will declare themselves as sehajdhari's and will take benefit even if they don't consider themselves as sikhs.Being Mona is a choice and they can become keshdhari to get admission.For Other religions too you have to pass some criteria then only you can reap the benefit of a minority seat.It is not like that anyone who calls himself mohammed or ahmed can get himself in muslim institute
 
Oct 11, 2006
234
425
Patiala,Punjab.
Waheguru jee ka Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Very First Stanza of Japp Jee Sahib advises us daily:

"Hukam Razaai Chalnaa Nanak Likhiya Naal".

A Sikh must lead his/her life under God's Divine Command.
Hair are God's gift both for Females and Males and as such
we must take care just like other Body Parts.

The Sikh Gurdwaras Act 1925 has also prescribed Form to
declare that I am a Keshadhari Sikh; do not trim or shave
my beard or Keshas; do not smoke or use Kutha (Halal)
meat, in any form; do not take alcoholic drinks; and am
not a Patit. *Patit means a person, who being Keshadhari
Sikh trims or shaves his beard or Keshas or who after
taking Amrit commits anyone or more of the Four Kurahits...

The Sikh Reht Maryada, 1945 and the Sikh Ardaas remind
us to maintain unshorn Hair, beard, moustaches, eyebrows.

On 30 May 2009, A Full Bench of the Punjab and Haryana
High Court had delivered Judgement that "maintaining hair
unshorn is an essential component of the Sikh religion."

If any doubt representative Photo of a Sehajdhari reproduced
at page 693 of Mahan Kosh (in Punjabi) - Encyclopaedia of
Sikh Literature by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, available since
1930 may be seen.

Let Dr. Harbans Lal of USA and his other associated Patits
may do whatever they like. I am sure the Court will term
them as Sehajdhari Hindus so that they are free to shave/
trim/cut their hair and read Bhagwat Geetta or Ramayan
including Veds and Manu Samiriti for elevating their lives.


Gurmit Singh (Australia)
Gurmit Singh ji,
ikonkaarplease stop trimming your nails because it is God"s gift to us.Still better.why not roam about naked,because that is how God send us to this world and is also God's will.
I am flabbergasted to know that those who follow the teachings of Guru Nanak in the true spirit, without showing any uotward signs are not Sikhs,
Thanks for the enlightenment.:badmood:
 

sdad

SPNer
Feb 17, 2009
20
24
WGJKK! WGJKF!!

I find it very odd that people who will not obey the hukum of the Guru than want a right to vote at a Gurdwara of the same Guru.
Surely, the bottom line here is the definition between believers and non-believers. Although I agree just having hair does not make one a Sikh, it is also true that a true Sikh will have hair.

BTW: my personal view is that the Panj-Phaireh (five beloved ones) should be able to over-ride any committee decisions. Now would anyone in his right mind say they are not required to have hair?

IMHO; this topic is simple and does not require any debate.

Gurfateh!
 
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sdad

SPNer
Feb 17, 2009
20
24
Gurmit Singh ji,
ikonkaarplease stop trimming your nails because it is God"s gift to us.Still better.why not roam about naked,because that is how God send us to this world and is also God's will.
I am flabbergasted to know that those who follow the teachings of Guru Nanak in the true spirit, without showing any uotward signs are not Sikhs,
Thanks for the enlightenment.:badmood:
Jasbirkaleka-ji
Please bear in mind:
Nails are dead cells as opposed to hair which contain DNA. Gods gift, yes indeed, please read articles about hair on the many forums around, I have been around this too many time to go over it again. About going naked, are you not aware, one of our five articles more than covers this point? And finally take Guru Gobind Singh-ji's example and what more do need know? I fear your so called bad mood may be responsible for your comment.
Gurfateh!khandaa
 

Janpreet

SPNer
Apr 16, 2007
27
27
Gurmit Singh ji,
ikonkaarplease stop trimming your nails because it is God"s gift to us.Still better.why not roam about naked,because that is how God send us to this world and is also God's will.
I am flabbergasted to know that those who follow the teachings of Guru Nanak in the true spirit, without showing any uotward signs are not Sikhs,
Thanks for the enlightenment.:badmood:
Guru Nanak dev ji believed and preached that if we want to be truthful in your life, you want to attain peace and bliss of spiritual experience then one should walk under the ‘hukam’ of Akal Purakh (god).

‘Hukam’ can be “law of nature” or “will of God”. If we read Japji Sahib, Guru Nanak Dev Ji says :

Kive sacheyara Hoyiye, Kiv Kudhe totte paal
(how can you be truthful and how can you achieve peace?)


Above tukk is question Guru Ji asked and in following tukk he gave answer to his own question:

Hukam Rajaai chalna nanak likhiya naal
(Nanak says, walk under the will of god)


Hair and nails we have on our body is will of Akal Purakh. Therefore we should accept the will of Akal Purakh. Now coming to your argument "please stop trimming your nails because it is God"s gift to us"

Yes you are right. You really don’t have to cut your nails either instead you can let them grow. Again ‘will of god’ will come in play when you will snap off your long nails while typing on your keyboard. Your body will shun extra long nails itself exactly how your body shun hair when you comb them.

Moreover Hair never interferes with your day to day routine. You can neatly and tidily tie you hair in a ‘jodha’ and tie up your beard and go about doing your day to day work. But on the other hand nails will interfere if grown too long,

Please remember Gurbani also emphasis on being hygienic, to be hygienic you don’t have to cut something; rather you need to clean it. That’s why it’s okay to wash and comb your hair and keep them clean. Similar logic applies to nails. Don’t cut your nails but keep them clean, they will snap off itself just like hair does when you comb.

Hence, unshorn/uncut hair was first promoted and encouraged by Guru Nanak dev Ji, later Guru Nanak Dev Ji in his 10th form also made it mandatory.
 

Janpreet

SPNer
Apr 16, 2007
27
27
Regarding your analogy that “why not roam about naked”, please also consider the fact that Guru Nanak dev ji also asked us to live in the context of a family life. :happysingh:
 

PCJ

Mar 26, 2008
91
8
Fremont, California
You were talking about schools ,it was me who wrote about college's.How cleverly you are skipping the point that large number of sikh schools provide education to all kind of students.Now coming to reservation any community,state when put its own resources then they want that first benefit should go to their own people,now if sikhs want to do that
what's the problem?
School is a general term for all education institution. The problem isn't about Sikhs or anybody else. Don't read it as a complaint from me. I am simply stating the fact religion causes people to create a criterion to discriminate, which actually takes people away from Lord as Lord can not be biased.

First of al majority religion Hindu's are not allowed to reserve seats as very large percentage of students in most of college's are hindu's.Now coming to your point about Mona's It is also for the benefit for the sikh community.If the right to admission in reserved
seats were extended to Mona's then very large number of Punjabi hindu's will declare themselves as sehajdhari's and will take benefit even if they don't consider themselves as sikhs.Being Mona is a choice and they can become keshdhari to get admission.For Other religions too you have to pass some criteria then only you can reap the benefit of a minority seat.It is not like that anyone who calls himself mohammed or ahmed can get himself in muslim institute

I understand it happens in all religions. That's why religions actually beat the purpose. Someone who claims to believe The Almighty Lord, has no reason at all to discriminate. Those who do discriminate and still claim that they believe in The Almighty Lord are simply lying about the part that believe in The Almighty Lord...

In addition, claiming that monas could convert to reap the benefit also takes people's freedom of religion away from monas. Freedom of religion is not only about freedom to choose any religion at all. Freedom of religion also means freedom not to choose any religion at all and freedom to choose part of any religion.

This is another reason why religion beats the purpose. Freedom of religion is not guaranteed in religions...
 

PCJ

Mar 26, 2008
91
8
Fremont, California
Jasbirkaleka-ji
Please bear in mind:
Nails are dead cells as opposed to hair which contain DNA. Gods gift, yes indeed, please read articles about hair on the many forums around, I have been around this too many time to go over it again. About going naked, are you not aware, one of our five articles more than covers this point? And finally take Guru Gobind Singh-ji's example and what more do need know? I fear your so called bad mood may be responsible for your comment.
Gurfateh!khandaa

Just as an FYI, nails and hair are both made up of same protein...

The doctor who misinformed people by writing the article simply lied and doesn't deserve to be a doctor...
 
Oct 11, 2006
234
425
Patiala,Punjab.
Jasbirkaleka-ji
Please bear in mind:
Nails are dead cells as opposed to hair which contain DNA. Gods gift, yes indeed, please read articles about hair on the many forums around, I have been around this too many time to go over it again. About going naked, are you not aware, one of our five articles more than covers this point? And finally take Guru Gobind Singh-ji's example and what more do need know? I fear your so called bad mood may be responsible for your comment.
Gurfateh!khandaa
WGJKK WGJKF
My response was to Gurmit Singh ji"s remark of God"s Divine Command and God"s gift of long hair to mankind.It had nothing to do with what Guru Nanak ji or Guru Gobind Singh ji ordained
The question still stands- Can the term SIKH and KHALSA be used intermittently?
By the way,both nails and hair have dead cells and both contain DNA.
Bhul Chuk Maaf
Jasbir Singh Kaleka
 
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kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
School is a general term for all education institution. The problem isn't about Sikhs or anybody else. Don't read it as a complaint from me. I am simply stating the fact religion causes people to create a criterion to discriminate, which actually takes people away from Lord as Lord can not be biased.

PCJ

For your kind information Linguistic minorities in India are also entitled to set up college's and reserve seat upto 50% for their students.Here i want to show you a conversation
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'College seats are reserved to protect minority rights' - The Times of India
'College seats are reserved to protect minority rights'

MUMBAI: With college admissions now in progress, the issue of reservation of seats for linguistic minorities has cropped up once again. Many colleges managed by linguistic minorities are openly declaring that they have reserved as many as 50 per cent of their seats for students from their respective communities.

This has resulted in widespread resentment among Marathi-speaking youth who feel discriminated against in their own state.

TNN spoke to Professor J.K. Bhambhani (72), a veteran educationist who is the rector and secretary of the Hyderabad (Sind) National Collegiate Board, which runs as many as 23 institutions in Mumb a i and Ulhasnagar, including colleges of arts, science, commerce, engineering and pharmacy.

The board had fought a grim legal battle up to the supreme court to uphold the rights of minority educational institutions and Prof. Bhambhani was closely associated with the litigation. Excerpts from an interview:

There is lot of resentment among Marathispeaking students of Mumbai because they have less chance of getting admission in colleges run by Sindhis, South Indians, Gujaratis and other linguistic minorities. These colleges are openly advertising the fact that as much as 50 per cent of their seats are reserved for students of their communities. Don't you think that this is unjust?

The first clause of Article 30 of the constitution gives minorities the fundamental right to administer educational institutions for members of their communities. This position has been rightly upheld by the apex court. We were compelled by circumstances to move the court to defend our fundamental right.

What were these “compelling circumstances''?

In 1992, the Maharashtra government started interfering in the working of institutions run by minorities. We had no choice but to move the courts to stop this interference and assert our fundamental right.

But aren't minority institutions being parochial when they reserve seats for their communities?

No. Even though in our admission notices we state that up to 50 per cent seats are reserved for Sindhis, we end up filling only 20 per cent seats with Sindhis. Except for our engineering colleges, in all our other institutions 50 per cent of students are non-Sindhis.

If you are not filling 50 per cent with Sindhi students, then why have a seperate quota for them?

The aim is to safeguard our basic rights as minorities. We are not against anybody. But minority rights have to be protected in a democracy. In fact, the courts have clarified that just because a minority institution gets a government grant it does not mean that its rights can be trampled upon by the authorities.

The ground reality is that even Marathispeaking students with adequate marks are not getting admission in colleges of their choice. An absurd situation is thus prevailing in the capital of Maharashtra, where sons of the soil are finding themselves discriminated against because of their mother tongue. Please comment.

Any community which is less than one per cent of the population of a state is treated as a minority. For example, Sindhis are minorities in all the states of the Indian union. We have no state of our own.

We have set up educational institutions not only for our community, but for others as well. We are only ensuring that students belonging to our community, and who have merit, are not at a disadvantage. We have nothing any against any other community.

In fact, the cut-off line (of marks) for Sindhis and students belonging to the backward categories is the same.

But, where do Marathi-speaking students go for admissions?

The constitution should be amended if the present situation is to change. I wish to emphasise that nobody is against Marathi-speaking students. But court verdicts should be respected. The Supreme Court had passed its order on minority institutions after extensive deliberation.

Marathi-speaking people have allowed those from outside Maharashtra to come to Mumbai and flourish in the metropolis.

Shouldn't the linguistic minorities reciprocate their goodwill?

There is no doubt that there should be a sense of fair play. Our board is displaying that in ample measure. I cannot advise other minority-run bodies. But meritorious students should not be denied admission on any ground.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now what you are going to say about language's.Should we all start hating Language? Should we start speaking in sign language

understand it happens in all religions. That's why religions actually beat the purpose. Someone who claims to believe The Almighty Lord, has no reason at all to discriminate. Those who do discriminate and still claim that they believe in The Almighty Lord are simply lying about the part that believe in The Almighty Lord...

In addition, claiming that monas could convert to reap the benefit also takes people's freedom of religion away from monas. Freedom of religion is not only about freedom to choose any religion at all. Freedom of religion also means freedom not to choose any religion at all and freedom to choose part of any religion.

The seats that reserved for practicing sikhs.If a mona consider himself sikh and want to take admission for seat that is reserved for Sikh Then he needs to become a practicing sikh.If a person has right freedom not choose any religion then how could he want a benefit that is reserved for a person who is practicing a religion
 

pushp247

SPNer
Jan 2, 2009
2
0
Mohali
As the president of SGPC can be appointed by the influence of politics, so I don't have faith in SGPC anymore. I'm surprised to see this forum and ppl's response and ignorance on this topic, these people have nothing to with sikhism its all about money(Golak).ikonkaar
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
pushp247 ji

Read a few more threads before you give up on SPN...there are many who are as critical as you are of SGPC. On this particular topic, the conversation has more to do with the constitutional issues that require a definition. And it is the Gurdwara Act that empowers SGPC from 1925/1947 to have as much input as it has.

Welcome here. I hope you continue to post. As I said, don't give up yet. There are many points of view here.
 

PCJ

Mar 26, 2008
91
8
Fremont, California
Kanwardeep Singh
user_offline.gif


You obviously don't even understand where I am coming from.

So let me ask you if you understand what I am talking in the following manner...

First, is your purpose to follow a religion to be closer to God? Do you understand what this means? I hope the answer is "yes", i.e. yes your goal is to be closer to God...

Do you understand that those people who supposedly got closer to God looked at all people equally? In other words, they didn't look for excuses to discriminate against people of any background at all.

So obviously, in order for someone to be closer to God, he or she has to get rid of any excuse at all to discriminate against anybody at all in this world. Someone closer to God is not going to play favoritism toward someone just because he is a Sikh for example, nor is he going to dicriminate against someone just because he is not a Sikh. Do you understand what this means?

But by reserving seats in schools for example, people of religions are obviously discriminating against people who don't belong to their religion(s). Do you understand what it means?

Since someone who is close to God has no reason at all to discriminate, someone who discriminates can not claim to be close to God. Do you understand what I am saying?

Since people of religion have found reasons to discriminate against people and someone who is close to God has no reason at all to discriminate, it means that those people of religion who have found reasons to discriminate are not close to God at all. In other words, instead of taking people closer to God, religion actually takes people away from God by giving people reasons to discriminate.

Since the original purpose to follow a religion was to be close to God and religion actually pushes people away from God, religion actually doesn't serve the original purpose.

Do you understand what I am talking about?
 
Kanwardeep Singh
user_offline.gif


You obviously don't even understand where I am coming from.

So let me ask you if you understand what I am talking in the following manner...

First, is your purpose to follow a religion to be closer to God? Do you understand what this means? I hope the answer is "yes", i.e. yes your goal is to be closer to God...

Do you understand that those people who supposedly got closer to God looked at all people equally? In other words, they didn't look for excuses to discriminate against people of any background at all.

So obviously, in order for someone to be closer to God, he or she has to get rid of any excuse at all to discriminate against anybody at all in this world. Someone closer to God is not going to play favoritism toward someone just because he is a Sikh for example, nor is he going to dicriminate against someone just because he is not a Sikh. Do you understand what this means?

But by reserving seats in schools for example, people of religions are obviously discriminating against people who don't belong to their religion(s). Do you understand what it means?

Since someone who is close to God has no reason at all to discriminate, someone who discriminates can not claim to be close to God. Do you understand what I am saying?

Since people of religion have found reasons to discriminate against people and someone who is close to God has no reason at all to discriminate, it means that those people of religion who have found reasons to discriminate are not close to God at all. In other words, instead of taking people closer to God, religion actually takes people away from God by giving people reasons to discriminate.

Since the original purpose to follow a religion was to be close to God and religion actually pushes people away from God, religion actually doesn't serve the original purpose.

Do you understand what I am talking about?

No, you are mixing up vocab.

<?"urn:
P><P><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Do you believe that the language you use is a modest representation of truth


some groups breed their social consciousness through acts of discrimination, but let us just let that words meaning be examined.

discriminate is not synonymous with words such as discernment and the act of distinguishing/distinguishment...which are largely objective observations. These are words that give group consciousness life, and correspond more with George Simmel’s ‘laws of group formation’.

if you believe in social evolution then it is difficult not to examine ALL the agencies responsible for group formation, as necessary for human survival. Enlightenment takes on a different meaning altogether in this reality. Groups can exist without what would appear to be a general display of bravado or feelings of entitlement.

Do you believe that the language you use is a modest representation of truth?

Because, for the most part, I think you have glossed over something very important.

A social groups survival may seem dependant upon a type of systematic discrimination, expansion/assertion of political prowess, and assimilation, but, is actually, for the most part, not at all dependant upon something that 'sinister?'. group formation has to do more with the individuals pychological need for belonging, longing for organization & structure, to actually display unity and not only affect the surroundings (with the power of soical organization) but eventually affect the group itself.


And for that reason I also support the natural right for this new group “sehajdaari’s” to organize politically, provided it is done for original reason that promote a type of distinguishment or pride, rather than just spite...so my answer to the poll above is a definite maybe.
 
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spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Sinister ji

I really support the articulate and logical argument you have made above. My next reaction is not a criticism per se, but a question grounded in the way in which religion is governed as per the Indian Constitution.

As you suggest, Sehajdhari like any other group would have a basic right to organize politically and assume a political identity - a discernible political identity.

The SGPC as it is currently constituted has legal status to administer gurdwaras (approximately 70 or 72) and is called upon to resolve various matters related to the panth, including the rendering of opinions as to who is a Sikh. That question is important because it pertains to how reservations will be determined within India.

Outside of India SGPC has virtually no authority except that which diaspora Sangats permit it to have, and it should have no governance over theological matters.


How would an organization such as a separate SGPC for sehajdhari Sikhs gain constitutional recognition? How would differing conclusions regarding the question, Who is a Sikh, be legally resolved?
 
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