Sehajdharis Seek Separate SGPC If Voting Right Denied

[kds1980]

You obviously don't even understand where I am coming from.

So let me ask you if you understand what I am talking in the following manner...

First, is your purpose to follow a religion to be closer to God? Do you understand what this means? I hope the answer is "yes", i.e. yes your goal is to be closer to God...

Do you understand that those people who supposedly got closer to God looked at all people equally? In other words, they didn't look for excuses to discriminate against people of any background at all.


So obviously, in order for someone to be closer to God, he or she has to get rid of any excuse at all to discriminate against anybody at all in this world. Someone closer to God is not going to play favoritism toward someone just because he is a Sikh for example, nor is he going to dicriminate against someone just because he is not a Sikh. Do you understand what this means?

I don't want to diclose anything personal about me but The purpose of following religion could be anyone,being closer to god,Social or just because you are bprn it with and it is
Part of your lifestyle part of your lifestyle

A religion has 2 element Miri and piri Political and spiritual.The aim of spiritual element is to be closer to god while The aim of political element is to take care of worldly interest of Your community.You may find political element discriminatory But It necessary for any community have this element O/W the rulers or Govt of that place may not allow you to freely worship or the type of spirituality you want to practice.

Many sufi saints hindu bhagats claimed that they are not following any religion.Where their followers are now? They are either assimilated in Hinduism or Islam.It clearly shows that spirituality cannot survive without being molded into a religion

Had the sikh Guru's not molded sikhism into a religion then all sikh spirituality would have been lost and We all have been sitting on HIndu philosophy.net or islam philosophy.net.The difference is in front of you the sikh dominated Punjab of India is very much seculer compared to Muslim dominated punjab of Pakistan

 

[Sinister]

How would an organization such as a separate SGPC for sehajdhari Sikhs gain constitutional recognition? How would differing conclusions regarding the question, Who is a Sikh, be legally resolved?

Hello Narayanjot Kaur ji,

I dunno...but we could look for parallels... if it is purely legislative problem to administer affirmitive action programs then I was thinking of something along the lines of Tribal Enrollment Programs? (usually used by all the different first nations people in Canada who benefit from affirmitive action programs)

or even

a preliminary ceremony if need be...showing that an individual is committed to the betterment of the faith and panth.

 

[ballym]

Who is a Hindu? Who is a muslim? Who is a Christian? Do they ask their adherents or persons who call themselves as such to PROVE that they are what they are claiming to be?
Whole trouble is about Turban.
How do you admit a girl to guru Ramdas medical college...from where all this trouble started?
Based on her father's religious behaviour? or length of his hairs?
If she has less than 10" hair... she is not allowed?
How will you judge whether she cuts her hairs or not?
So cutting is not critical... right? How deep you cut is the criteria?
Critical is that you do not double speak and truly state that you are not going to keep hairs.
Stating a truth makes you loose your "sikh benefits". Are not we going against our religious teachings to speak, hear, see truth?

This sikh definition will motivate more people to live a double life. Is this what our religion want?
Just for a minor trouble of identification criteria, we want to deny majority of people a benefit?..... and give a chance to throw them far away from sikhism?
Why would such a person cling to this faith?
Ok... you do not want such people. then why do you cry if some Dera or RSS or christians jump on such opportunity?
And let these sehajdhari call themselves with some name.
What is the problem?
Do not be on both sides. Either take them or leave them. If you are leaving them... then do not cry unless they do any harm.

 

[ballym]

the rulers or Govt of that place may not allow you to freely worship or the type of spirituality you want to practice.
Many sufi saints hindu bhagats claimed that they are not following any religion.Where their followers are now? They are either assimilated in Hinduism or Islam.It clearly shows that spirituality cannot survive without being molded into a religion

Well said.. No one really remember chaitanya mahaprabhu/ Kabir and their contemporary. they are not remembered as path breaking. I do see passing reference to chaitanya mahaprabhu is some sections of hindus but not in mainstream.

 

[kds1980]

Who is a Hindu? Who is a muslim? Who is a Christian? Do they ask their adherents or persons who call themselves as such to PROVE that they are what they are claiming to be?
Whole trouble is about Turban.
How do you admit a girl to guru Ramdas medical college...from where all this trouble started?
Based on her father's religious behaviour? or length of his hairs?
If she has less than 10" hair... she is not allowed?
How will you judge whether she cuts her hairs or not?
So cutting is not critical... right? How deep you cut is the criteria?
Critical is that you do not double speak and truly state that you are not going to keep hairs.
Stating a truth makes you loose your "sikh benefits". Are not we going against our religious teachings to speak, hear, see truth?

This sikh definition will motivate more people to live a double life. Is this what our religion want?
Just for a minor trouble of identification criteria, we want to deny majority of people a benefit?..... and give a chance to throw them far away from sikhism?
Why would such a person cling to this faith?
Ok... you do not want such people. then why do you cry if some Dera or RSS or christians jump on such opportunity?
And let these sehajdhari call themselves with some name.
What is the problem?
Do not be on both sides. Either take them or leave them. If you are leaving them... then do not cry unless they do any harm.

I am not against reservation for genuine sehajdhari's but the problem is once the route is open for them then many many fake sehajdhari's will come and grab seats reserved for sikhs.

Let me give you some information which my brother told me.Recently he is working in MNC software company as trainee.That company also picked trainee's from Punjab's best university Thapar where 50% seats are reserved for students of Punjab.Hardly any of trainee that came in contact with my bro are sikhs not even mona's.They speak Punjabi but they are from Bania and other Hindu families from Punjab.This clearly show how much sikhs in Punjab are lagging behind.Now do you want these same people to grab handful of seats reserved for sikhs by disguising as sehajdhari's in some college's then go ahead.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

When Guru nanak ji was looking for a Successor...do you all know what were the trials and tribulations he put his followers through ?? Read the Janmsakhis....all sorts of inducements, welath, gold, jewels, etc etc were thrown and many picked these up and left...the LAST person "Standing" was Bhai lehna Ji who had been so persistent..his final "test" was Guru nanak jis command to begin eating a dead rotting body found along the wayfare...Bhai Lehna Jis question was..From which side shall i begin eating..Head or feet ??

Succeeding Gurus also faced such gruelling "tests" of Faith, LOYALTY, OBEDIENCE, SEVA. HUMILITY etc etc etc...

All these were for just ONE Successor "GURU". When Guur Gobind Singh Ji decided that after Him there would be no "single" leader....his TEST was EQUALLY GRUELLING...He DEMANDED....a "HEAD" ready to be CUT OFF. This is NOT a NEW CONCEPT...Guru Nanak ji had already delcared more than 200 years earlier..Je to PREM KHELLAN KA CHAO..Sir DHAR TALI Galee meri aao...IF YOU want to play the Game of LOVE with ME...coem to my street with YOUR HEAD ON YOUR PALM. GURU GOBIND SINGH JI was just carrying out this Command in a PRACTICAL WAY that the HUGE CROWD of 80,000 could WATCH.
FIVE times Guru Ji demanded a HEAD..and FIVE times He got ONE !!

TODAY...we have "DEMANDS" on the GURU..."give me a seat in this MBBS course..OR i go become a Radha Soami...or a Christian...or a Hindu...a Muslim...!!!!!"
I am POOR...give me 10,000 Rs monthly..or i am joining the Catholic Missionaries as a " Catholic -SIKH Priest" and preaching the Bible to fellow Catholicsikhs !!
a sevadaar at the Gurdawra called me a...***** so I am going to the Ravidassee Gurdawra from Now on..I am a Ravidassiah SIKH...so on and son..the WHINING goes on...people have become so MATLABEE...of what use are such "sikhs or sehajdharees" IF they are BOUGHT OVER and have no genuine LOVE for the GURU ?? WHAT "heads" can they Give ?? they cant even give their HAIR ?? ( they would rather PAY a Barber to take away their Hair which the GURU commands DONT !!)

When Guru Gobind Singh stood before a Crowd of 80,000 in 1699 and demanded for a HEAD..did the 80,000 stand up instantly....75,000?/ 60,000?? 50,000?? 10,000?? 1000?? 500?? 100 ?? 75 ?? 50 ?????? 25 ???? 10 ???? 5 ???? 3 ??? 2 ??? NO NO NO NO...ONLY "ONE" STOOD UP after THREE CALLS !!! What about the SECOND TIME GGS Called out...again just ONE came forward...same thing repeated until Guru Ji had FIVE VOLUNTEERS !!!

What would have happened IF GGS had stood up and said..Heres a 10000 GOLD MOHARS to the first 1 to come forward..I am sure the entire 80,000 would have got up and rushed forward...BUT GGS was NOT AFTER "NUMBERS"...as we are !! WE WANT NUMBERS...the MAXIMUM...the MAJORITY..even if we have to BUY them...cajole them...BRIBE THEM with MBBS seats...university education..college seats..naukree...wohtee...ghar..zameen....high posts..etc etc etc. YES..the Christians do give these..so peole convert...the Muslims also do that..so people convert...amny are saying..JOIN THEM..lets also BUY all the Converts we can..do we have the RESOURCES to COMPETE ?? do we want to compete in this BUYING MARKET ?? Did our GURUS do this ?? Does SGGS advocate this BUYING ?? NO.NO. NO. A SIKH has to be VOLUNTARY..out of PREM of the GURU. no two ways about that.:happysingh::khanda3:ikonkaar:thumbsupp:

 

[Sinister]

I am not against reservation for genuine sehajdhari's but the problem is once the route is open for them then many many fake sehajdhari's will come and grab seats reserved for sikhs.

What happens if a described sikh (as per the Indian constitution) goes in a seat reserved for Sikhs but when he graduates decides not to be a sikh anymore…or maybe 2-3 years later decides not to be a sikh anymore. or maybe when he moves out decides to become a sehajdaari? or maybe does something that does not fit into the criteria of a sikh anymore while he is in school (surely schools do not want an empty seat)? what if someone dishonestly became a sikh just to get the seat? what if a child was forced to be a sikh and get a sikh seat but then when he grew up decided not to be a sikh?

should we ask for the degree back? or maybe legislate and mandate that he remain a sikh?
affirmative action on the basis of religion and not ethnicity all seems kinda weird, especially to a foreigner.
:crazy:

 

[PCJ]

I don't want to diclose anything personal about me but The purpose of following religion could be anyone,being closer to god,Social or just because you are bprn it with and it is
Part of your lifestyle part of your lifestyle

A religion has 2 element Miri and piri Political and spiritual.The aim of spiritual element is to be closer to god while The aim of political element is to take care of worldly interest of Your community.You may find political element discriminatory But It necessary for any community have this element O/W the rulers or Govt of that place may not allow you to freely worship or the type of spirituality you want to practice.

Many sufi saints hindu bhagats claimed that they are not following any religion.Where their followers are now? They are either assimilated in Hinduism or Islam.It clearly shows that spirituality cannot survive without being molded into a religion

Had the sikh Guru's not molded sikhism into a religion then all sikh spirituality would have been lost and We all have been sitting on HIndu philosophy.net or islam philosophy.net.The difference is in front of you the sikh dominated Punjab of India is very much seculer compared to Muslim dominated punjab of Pakistan

Any reason to follow a religion other to be closer to God is obviously an unGodly reason to follow a religion. I am pretty sure you understand what this means. It's pretty simple...

No religion can bring spirituality into its folds as creation of religion in itself goes against spirituality. Here is an example, spiritually wise people tell us to recognize all as one but creation of religion is itself creates division among people.

Any religion, whether it's Sikhsim, Islam, Hindusim or Chrisitianity, that causes division of human race can not claim to have brought spirituality into its folds as it has gone against spirituality by being created.

Spirituality doesn't need to be written on piece of paper to survive. Just look around us, people are learning that all people are equal unless of course religion pulls them back. These people who make equality of all practical are much more spiritual than any religious person who causes division among people...

 

[PCJ]

No, you are mixing up vocab.

<?"urn:

some groups breed their social consciousness through acts of discrimination, but let us just let that words meaning be examined.

discriminate is not synonymous with words such as discernment and the act of distinguishing/distinguishment...which are largely objective observations. These are words that give group consciousness life, and correspond more with George Simmel’s ‘laws of group formation’.

if you believe in social evolution then it is difficult not to examine ALL the agencies responsible for group formation, as necessary for human survival. Enlightenment takes on a different meaning altogether in this reality. Groups can exist without what would appear to be a general display of bravado or feelings of entitlement.

Do you believe that the language you use is a modest representation of truth?

Because, for the most part, I think you have glossed over something very important.

A social groups survival may seem dependant upon a type of systematic discrimination, expansion/assertion of political prowess, and assimilation, but, is actually, for the most part, not at all dependant upon something that 'sinister?'. group formation has to do more with the individuals pychological need for belonging, longing for organization & structure, to actually display unity and not only affect the surroundings (with the power of soical organization) but eventually affect the group itself.


And for that reason I also support the natural right for this new group “sehajdaari’s” to organize politically, provided it is done for original reason that promote a type of distinguishment or pride, rather than just spite...so my answer to the poll above is a definite maybe.

Social Evolution can only be good if it happens for the society as a whole, not for an individual groups. Society can not evolve when individual groups become selfish.

 

[kds1980]

What happens if a described sikh (as per the Indian constitution) goes in a seat reserved for Sikhs but when he graduates decides not to be a sikh anymore…or maybe 2-3 years later decides not to be a sikh anymore. or maybe when he moves out decides to become a sehajdaari? or maybe does something that does not fit into the criteria of a sikh anymore while he is in school (surely schools do not want an empty seat)? what if someone dishonestly became a sikh just to get the seat? what if a child was forced to be a sikh and get a sikh seat but then when he grew up decided not to be a sikh?

should we ask for the degree back? or maybe legislate and mandate that he remain a sikh?
affirmative action on the basis of religion and not ethnicity all seems kinda weird, especially to a foreigner.
:crazy:

There no answers to Ifs and buts.A college cannot dictate the entire life of a student but it has to make sure that seats reserved for any community should go to legitimate person

One can say same thing about linguistic minority reservations.

Also there are many ways to bypass even caste based reservations.There was a case when a an upper caste rich man asked his Schedule caste servant to legally adopt his son so in Future his can reap all the benefits given to schedule caste community.

We have to accept that reservations are part of Indian system and Rural sikhs are very much lagging behind in education

 

[kds1980]

No religion can bring spirituality into its folds as creation of religion in itself goes against spirituality. Here is an example, spiritually wise people tell us to recognize all as one but creation of religion is itself creates division among people.

Could you please describe what is spirituality ? What could be spirituality for one person it may be not for other.so even spirituality could create divisions?

Spirituality doesn't need to be written on piece of paper to survive. Just look around us, people are learning that all people are equal unless of course religion pulls them back. These people who make equality of all practical are much more spiritual than any religious person who causes division among people...

LOL are you living in your imaginery world.? Where people are learning that we are equal
Racist attacks on Indian students,attacks on sikhs after 9/11 ,Attacks on people of UP bihar In Bombay etc.In India day by day people are getting more divided and this time Religion is not is one of the major cause.

 

[PCJ]

Could you please describe what is spirituality ? What could be spirituality for one person it may be not for other.so even spirituality could create divisions?



LOL are you living in your imaginery world.? Where people are learning that we are equal
Racist attacks on Indian students,attacks on sikhs after 9/11 ,Attacks on people of UP bihar In Bombay etc.In India day by day people are getting more divided and this time Religion is not is one of the major cause.

Spritiuality would be something that brings someone closer to God. It has nothing to do with someone's personal opinion...

If you are not even sure what spirituality is, then how on this earth could have claimed that religion brought spirituality into its fold in your previous post?

I know that world around me is not imaginary and I further know that I am much less likely to be discriminated against by the people around me than by Sikhs for example...

Believe or not by supporting religious discrimination, you are equally responsible for racism as any racist out there, especially now the some of the Sikhs actually claimed that Sikh is a race on the 2010 US Census...

 

[spnadmin]

Believe or not by supporting religious discrimination, you are equally responsible for racism as any racist out there, especially now the some of the Sikhs actually claimed that Sikh is a race on the 2010 US Census...

PCJ ji

How is Kanwardeep supporting religious discrimination? He is talking about inequalities that result from laws. The inequalities are real. To talk about them, or describe them, or give examples, does not make one a racist.

How does claiming that Sikhi is a race on the 2010 US Census make someone a racist? I myself think that idea was wrong and far-fetched -- kind of illogical -- but I don't think the claim makes one a racist.

 

[PCJ]

PCJ ji

How is Kanwardeep supporting religious discrimination? He is talking about inequalities that result from laws. The inequalities are real. To talk about them, or describe them, or give examples, does not make one a racist.

How does claiming that Sikhi is a race on the 2010 US Census make someone a racist? I myself think that idea was wrong and far-fetched -- kind of illogical -- but I don't think the claim makes one a racist.

For those who reported that their race was Sikh, Sikhi is more of a race than a religion. Any race-based discrimination is called racism.

Therefore, anybody who supports Sikhi-based discrimination, such as discrimination in Sikh schools, is a racist...

It's good though that Sikhs started claiming that Sikhi is a race. Now, I hope they make it official by taking a hukamnaama...

 

[kds1980]

Spritiuality would be something that brings someone closer to God. It has nothing to do with someone's personal opinion...

So you believe that spirituality is one that brings a person closer to god.But different people Believe in Different methods for getting closer to god.For example many tribals sacrifice animals,some believe in meditation some believe singing loud kirtan and list goes on .

Now please tell us how spirituality does not divide humans?

 

[PCJ]

So you believe that spirituality is one that brings a person closer to god.But different people Believe in Different methods for getting closer to god.For example many tribals sacrifice animals,some believe in meditation some believe singing loud kirtan and list goes on .

Now please tell us how spirituality does not divide humans?

It doesn't matter what people believe. If it doesn't bring you close to God, it's all useless...

Please tell us what you were referring to when you mentioned the word spirituality in your previous post...

 

[spnadmin]

For those who reported that their race was Sikh, Sikhi is more of a race than a religion. Any race-based discrimination is called racism.

Therefore, anybody who supports Sikhi-based discrimination, such as discrimination in Sikh schools, is a racist...

It's good though that Sikhs started claiming that Sikhi is a race. Now, I hope they make it official by taking a hukamnaama...

LOL That is pretty sarcastic, but I could not help laughing. You are funny! And i still disagree with you.

If you claim that Sikhi is a race, you are guilty only of an error of fact. It is a ridiculous claim as far as I am concerned. Most Sikhs are from Punjabi origins. Therefore they are Indo European and "white" as opposed to "oriental" or "african/black" etc. A growing number of Sikhs do not even share the Punjabi gene pool. So both sides are ignoring facts. But that does not add up to discrimination or to racism, only to wishful thinking.


The so-called Sikh based discrimination comes about as the result of reservations and set-asides in India. Sikhs look for ways to off-set the restrictions and limitations imposed on them by law. That is not discrimination, that is called looking after your young. The fault lies with proportional representation in a constitutional democracy. That is political argument not a race-based argument.

 

[kds1980]

It doesn't matter what people believe. If it doesn't bring you close to God, it's all useless...

Please tell us what you were referring to when you mentioned the word spirituality in your previous post...

What I am saying is that there different methods which people adopt to get close to god.As You said that spirituality is one that brings a person closer to god.so even spirituality give birth to differences and divide people..One person may not agree with other person version of spirituality

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

What happens if a described sikh (as per the Indian constitution) goes in a seat reserved for Sikhs but when he graduates decides not to be a sikh anymore…or maybe 2-3 years later decides not to be a sikh anymore. or maybe when he moves out decides to become a sehajdaari? or maybe does something that does not fit into the criteria of a sikh anymore while he is in school (surely schools do not want an empty seat)? what if someone dishonestly became a sikh just to get the seat? what if a child was forced to be a sikh and get a sikh seat but then when he grew up decided not to be a sikh?

should we ask for the degree back? or maybe legislate and mandate that he remain a sikh?
affirmative action on the basis of religion and not ethnicity all seems kinda weird, especially to a foreigner.
:crazy:

Exactly what you describe has happened..and will happen. In Malaysi we have a Sikh Education Fund..to help sikh students enter universities..and one of the requirements was keshadharee etc..etc...many "became" just THAT..to get the MONEY..once they Grdaduated..bye bye sikhi..kesh..and the MONEY too..come look for me if you want..find me if you can..and then we will see how you take back the money...

WHY did this happen ??Becasue the very FOUNDATION was based on a LIE....the "student" LIED that he was keshadharee sikh..the Fund manager "LIED" that the person before him is a keshadharee SIKH..becasue the person is NO SUCH THING ( no meter has been invented to see inside a sikh's mind ??ha ha ha )..BOTH sides LIED.

Just the other day a Fraud Baba..Pakhandi baba became the HERO..when he had the money to give "aid" to single sikh mothers...poor sikh children..etc etc...and ALL were singing his praises..and CONDEMNING the GURDWARAS..as goluck hungry..goluck grabbers..bhekheh parbhandaks...the Pkahndi baba COVERED all his FAULTS..WITH "MONEY" ( Money which is NOT hsi hard earned earnings..BUT Sangat collections anyway from kirtans in Gurdawars..donations form snangats to buy this instruemtn and that instrument, charitable schools trusts etc etc etc etc just like all other Pakhandi babas do all the time..SADEE JUTTEE SADEH SIR !! Our own shoe to whack our own head !!
This is EXACTLY what we too PRAY to SGGS when we offer a "rumallah" and ask Guur to COVER OUR FAULTS..here and in the hereafter..in EXCHANGE for a piece of cloth 5 metres square !!! a bargain isnt it ??

As I said PREM PREM and more PREM is all a SIKH needs for his GURU. Nothing else counts.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

SIKHS doing what they are doing..is becasue of the SYSTEM IMPOSED on them by INDIA. Castes..reserved seats etc etc.
REMOVE ALL THOSE..and SIKHS can COMPETE with the BEST on MERIT ALONE.

If the LAW states that a certain Parliament seat is RESERVED for a Scheduled Caste...then the SIKHS have no choice except to go find one..the Best cnadidate may be a JATT or a Brahmin..but he cannot stand......otherwise they cant fight..its the LAW. IF its a reserved woman seat..they have to field a woman even though the BEST may be a Man...same for everything else..quotas..reservations..etc are Mandated by LAW and should GO.