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Reincarnation / Transmigration: Revisited & Re-explored

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Reincarnation / Transmigration: Revisited & Re-explored

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New How would you know how much foundational knowledge I or someone else may have, and how we may apply these? Are you the gatekeeper of "intellectual maturity?" We are all here to learn and explore various Sikh concepts.
RD1 Ji, you've taken it personally, I didn't mean it like that - I'm sorry ! My intentions were sincere n fruitful on account "understanding" concepts and not judging intelligence. The term intellectual maturity was used in relation to demonstrating a familiarity with, and confidence in handling, the vocabulary and conceptual framework of Sikh theoretical tradition [note, understanding and not qualifications] thus, constituting as it were, compatible individuals to take part in sound arguments. It is impossible for someone brought up in European culture to appreciate Punjabi music because such music cannot mean the same to her/him as it would to a Punjabi whose been brought up in a different environment, with different values and different language. No doubt you will agree that the purpose of a piece of music is to convey the composer's emotions. But what can a European know about the Punjabi's emotions ? On that note, I cite here an example for you, which I'd like you to chew on and shop around for interpretation, theoretical framework surrounding it's construction and overall objective setting out meaning and purpose. It is: [bold].

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਸਿੰਮਲ ਰੁਖੁ ਸਰਾਇਰਾ ਅਤਿ ਦੀਰਘ ਅਤਿ ਮੁਚੁ ॥ ਓਇ ਜਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਆਸ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਸੇ ਕਿਤੁ ॥ ਫਲ ਫਿਕੇ ਫੁਲ ਬਕਬਕੇ ਕੰਮਿ ਨ ਆਵਹਿ ਪਤ ॥ ਮਿਠਤੁ ਨੀਵੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਤਤੁ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਨਿਵੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਪਰ ਕਉ ਨਿਵੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਧਰਿ ਤਾਰਾਜੂ ਤੋਲੀਐ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੁ ਗਉਰਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਦੂਣਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਜੋ ਹੰਤਾ ਮਿਰਗਾਹਿ ॥ ਸੀਸਿ ਨਿਵਾਇਐ ਕਿਆ ਥੀਐ ਜਾ ਰਿਦੈ ਕੁਸੁਧੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ SGGSJ, 470

Baba Nanak composed that, hunt around and see if you can find the beauty behind its construction. I'll wait n meditate until then .....

.....to be continued !

Speak soon - Ciao
 

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Before starting, if I disagree with an opinion I will challenge it to the best of my ability, not for my benefit, but for the benefit of all of us understanding and gaining knowledge.

Reincarnation is a Hindu doctrine. Early Sikhs/Leaders were in a society where that would have affected their thinking on life. Looking at today, there is not one religion that has the same version on reincarnation, and speaking on a scientific view, a view that we can assess for ourselves, rather than a more fallible theory of big bang. Reincarnation theories of religions have shown not to fit in with the way the galaxies work. In order for there to be a reset you have to have a dissipation of hot and cold bodies in space, and that has in the last 100 years been proven false.

From a Sikh point of View, reincarnation for a lot of Sikhs is taken seriously. Where they can within seconds say Heaven is not to be taken literally. Where is the justification in that?

If this thread begins with an end judgement, then let me be clear,

In Sikhism you are only JUDGED ONCE, no 'PHYSICAL' Reincarnation. Be careful what you put forward as God. As many tend to put normal man on a high mountain rather than revering the Creator they revere the Creation, as the next early reply or two will show. I have said this before the comment comes.


Why? There are more different angles that promote one judgement, where as reincarnation is much more, proven to be fallible. If anyone wants to challenge my view on this, then I will reply to each one, as it takes time to answer each. I will give the following quote:

pig iKisAY rhxw nhI AwgY Tauru n pwie ] (28-2)
pag khisi-ai rahnaa nahee aagai tha-ur na paa-ay.
Their feet slip, and they cannot stay here any longer. And in the next world, they find no place of rest at all.
Eh vylw hiQ n AwveI AMiq gieAw pCuqwie ] (28-2)
oh vaylaa hath na aavee ant ga-i-aa pachhutaa-ay.
This opportunity shall not come again. In the end, they depart, regretting and repenting.



You only have this opportunity ONCE. I will post more if challenged.


jyhw AwieAw qyhw jwsI kir Avgx pCoqwvixAw ]2] (114-8)
jayhaa aa-i-aa tayhaa jaasee kar avgan pachhotaavani-aa. ||2||
As they came, so shall they go, regretting the mistakes they made. ||2||


jmpuir bDw duK shwhI ] (111-10)
jampur baDhaa dukh sahaahee.
Bound and gagged in the City of Death(An unrepentant sinners end), they suffer in terrible pain.
AMnw bolw ikCu ndir n AwvY mnmuK pwip pcwvixAw ]4] (111-10)
annaa bolaa kichh nadar na aavai manmukh paap pachaavani-aa. ||4||
Blind and deaf, they see nothing at all; the self-willed manmukhs rot away in sin. ||4||


At his very last moments, one who thinks of the Lord, says Trilochan, shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart.”

Somehow if I was a drug consuming raping murderer and thought of the Lord at the last moments of my life, I don't think I would be liberated.



You can not have a theory of reincarnation and Heaven/Hell in the same narrative. If you do, what do you think this means?
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Before starting, if I disagree with an opinion I will challenge it to the best of my ability, not for my benefit, but for the benefit of all of us understanding and gaining knowledge.

Reincarnation is a Hindu doctrine. Early Sikhs/Leaders were in a society where that would have affected their thinking on life. Looking at today, there is not one religion that has the same version on reincarnation, and speaking on a scientific view, a view that we can assess for ourselves, rather than a more fallible theory of big bang. Reincarnation theories of religions have shown not to fit in with the way the galaxies work. In order for there to be a reset you have to have a dissipation of hot and cold bodies in space, and that has in the last 100 years been proven false.

From a Sikh point of View, reincarnation for a lot of Sikhs is taken seriously. Where they can within seconds say Heaven is not to be taken literally. Where is the justification in that?

If this thread begins with an end judgement, then let me be clear,

In Sikhism you are only JUDGED ONCE, no 'PHYSICAL' Reincarnation. Be careful what you put forward as God. As many tend to put normal man on a high mountain rather than revering the Creator they revere the Creation, as the next early reply or two will show. I have said this before the comment comes.


Why? There are more different angles that promote one judgement, where as reincarnation is much more, proven to be fallible. If anyone wants to challenge my view on this, then I will reply to each one, as it takes time to answer each. I will give the following quote:

pig iKisAY rhxw nhI AwgY Tauru n pwie ] (28-2)
pag khisi-ai rahnaa nahee aagai tha-ur na paa-ay.
Their feet slip, and they cannot stay here any longer. And in the next world, they find no place of rest at all.
Eh vylw hiQ n AwveI AMiq gieAw pCuqwie ] (28-2)
oh vaylaa hath na aavee ant ga-i-aa pachhutaa-ay.
This opportunity shall not come again. In the end, they depart, regretting and repenting.



You only have this opportunity ONCE. I will post more if challenged.


jyhw AwieAw qyhw jwsI kir Avgx pCoqwvixAw ]2] (114-8)
jayhaa aa-i-aa tayhaa jaasee kar avgan pachhotaavani-aa. ||2||
As they came, so shall they go, regretting the mistakes they made. ||2||


jmpuir bDw duK shwhI ] (111-10)
jampur baDhaa dukh sahaahee.
Bound and gagged in the City of Death(An unrepentant sinners end), they suffer in terrible pain.
AMnw bolw ikCu ndir n AwvY mnmuK pwip pcwvixAw ]4] (111-10)
annaa bolaa kichh nadar na aavai manmukh paap pachaavani-aa. ||4||
Blind and deaf, they see nothing at all; the self-willed manmukhs rot away in sin. ||4||


At his very last moments, one who thinks of the Lord, says Trilochan, shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart.”

Somehow if I was a drug consuming raping murderer and thought of the Lord at the last moments of my life, I don't think I would be liberated.



You can not have a theory of reincarnation and Heaven/Hell in the same narrative. If you do, what do you think this means?
Why exactly is it once? But at the same time Gurbani says we have been here many times? The answer is because the 'we' do not exist. There is only ONE and that ONE is ALL. Like an actor playing ALL the characters (shabads on ang 736) but when the costumes (the 'we') are removed you see there is only the ONE (God). So if you are thinking your ego identity (the haume) will continue and reincarnate - no it will not. But YOU are NOT that ego identity!!!! So YOU will not cease to exist and YOU will live on even as other entities. Gurbani tells us that as Gurmukhi when one realizes in himself that 'he IS me' he realizes his OWN SELF - who is the 'he'??? It's God!! Then what more is there to do or to have done?
The only thing which dies and ceases to exist is the ego identity which is false. The physical body is also false. But the I AM, the experiencer, the doer behind the ego and the body is forever - that consciousness which is behind every set of eyes and is the same ONE in all of us. So when you die physically it won't be the end. Because YOU are not the physical shell, or even the false identity you assumed in this life. YOU are MUCH more! And THAT is what lives on and is the SAME ONE conscious awareness in ALL. So yes we have been here millions of times, in every species and every situation. But the 'we' is really Waheguru. And we are NOT something separate from Waheguru. The 'we' does not even exist as it's illusion. We were never separate. That's the hard thing to let go of!!!
 

dalvindersingh grewal

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There is enough examples in Gurbani where reincarnation is mentioned, hence it will be futile to deny this based on Gurbani context. Even in the life records of the Gurus we find some examples of reincarnation. There are cases of new life after death reported in press as well and some cases I have interviewed personally and found them to be correct without doubt; there is certainly something to it which needs to be studied further.
 

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There is enough examples in Gurbani where reincarnation is mentioned, hence it will be futile to deny this based on Gurbani context. Even in the life records of the Gurus we find some examples of reincarnation. There are cases of new life after death reported in press as well and some cases I have interviewed personally and found them to be correct without doubt; there is certainly something to it which needs to be studied further.
Can you please elaborate on examples of reincarnation?
 

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There are MANY subjective experiences reported.... too many to ignore.
I would never ignore anyones subjective experience but the quantity or amount is not evidence..

Do you then believe that the human personality is Reincarnated? Which is what this post suggests?
 

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I would never ignore anyones subjective experience but the quantity or amount is not evidence..

Do you then believe that the human personality is Reincarnated? Which is what this post suggests?
What I am saying is that the human personality is just a 'character' being played by the ONE, Akal Purakh. You have to see past this life identity as being 'you' because its not. So to answer your question, yes and no. Because it's the same ONE universal consciousness (Creator) which is really the one who is experiencing everything, then yes, I believe sometimes glimpses of past experiences (or rather 'other' experiences, because even time is illusion) can surface in another human life, as in the child referenced above at the link. But ALL human personalities are really Waheguru experiencing subjectively through his own creation. So the human personality (ego identity) is just like a costume. Its temporary and false. But when the human body dies, the awareness that was operating through it does NOT DIE and DOES go on - fully aware.
It would be like (and I have used this analogy before) if you dream tonight you are a surgeon, in the OR and have your patient and nurses, and anesthesiologist etc all there. While in the dream you believe you are the surgeon. You believe you are separate from the patient and the nurses etc. Throughout the dream, you build an entire story and life based on that character. The truth is, the consciousness, the awareness behind the surgeon is really Sukhsingh ji correct? (and you can also realize that the nurses, the patient etc are also Sukhsingh Ji because ALL of them were in YOUR dream created by YOUR mind!!) The surgeon identity was false, but when you wake up in the morning the surgeon ceases to exist, along with the entire identity you built around that character. So can you ask yourself does the surgeon reincarnate???? Well, certainly you will dream again, the next night, and you will be a different character, and you may even remember some snips of being the surgeon. But is that truly the surgeon who went on to be another character identity?? Of course not, it was Sukhsingh Ji, the dreamer who only dreamt of being a surgeon! The question of reincarnation to me is inconsequential, because you are asking the wrong question... rather you are asking about the wrong identity when referring to whether or not reincarnation takes place. Sukhsingh Ji is the dreamer, the awareness. That awareness is what continues beyond the dream, and goes on to dream again. Not the surgeon (at least on the same level).
Now, referencing THIS reality. All of our human identities, our ego, our haume, are the dream characters. And there is only ONE dreamer. That ONE dreamer is the consciousness behind ALL OF US. But just like when you were the surgeon, and you totally bought into the dream and believed you were the surgeon while in the dream, so too are we in that same predicament right now.
So the question is not will Harkiran reincarnate... the question is does the conscious awareness behind Harkiran, continue even after the temporary dream of being Harkiran ceases (and can that consciousness possibly remember being Harkiran while playing another character identity) and that answer is yes.
This is just my own understanding, and I believe it agrees with Gurbani, see shabad on Ang 736 about Waheguru being the director and all the characters... also see the tuks telling us that as Gurmukh, when we realize our OWN SELF, and that 'HE IS ME' then what more is there to do or to have done....
 

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If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.
As of late; the old teachings of 'Consciousness' from past eastern philosophies, is becoming popular once again. One of the root components in most forms of consciousness teachings is that man/women can, within himself, transcend physical existence & experience their own goodness as being 'One' with the universe, exalting ones self to God like comparison. If you no longer see error in your actions or others, then Guru Nanak would have had no need to disavow Hinduisms teachings, and being a different religious path. The consciousness ideology is more compatible with Buddhism than Sikhism. The SGGS points out we are all committing evil sins and that this is our main battle in life & to know and obey God. These teachings also promotes certain scriptures in all major religions to promote is belief systems. We can not elevate ourselves anyway near God. The 'He is Me' phrase, is a phrase between our Guru and his Master and Teacher - 'The True Guru'. It is meant on a spiritual context. A normal person does not have this trait until a certain declaration and decision is met.
If ego is false, is depression also false? I see many people daily who are over confident and prideful. If pride is a sin to a serious God, then is it false to God?
When we die; only our physical body dies, our soul never dies. We do go to another place to begin an infinite life as a soul, and not reincarnation. This infinite life is decided by your life's decisions and sins on this Earth. The one and only main thing in life is if you accepted and obeyed the True Living God. Life is like a few seconds long compared to the afterlife. That is why many people near death experience a flashback of their life's in a few seconds and they felt a strong presence behind them watching and analysing their life. They did not look behind but somehow knew it was God.
Dalvinder Singh; you can not believe reincarnation and Heaven/Hell, it is one or the other. There is no one that can confirm if another person says that they lived a previous life and that this is not a hallucination or dream. There are hardly any people that share memories of someone's previous life. A case may be made for a one off, without confirming their validity. If reincarnation was so, then why can not many of these people tell you their lives as an animal? As it is not so, more people would want to believe in reincarnation than God giving everyone one unique body with one unique fingerprints, lips, ears, face, nose. What does this say? You are unique and animals here in this world are not, have a think. Reincarnation also can not work if someone becomes an animal as they can not sin and be judged; or a fish for example. There is nothing to separate one fish from another. A fish can not plot murder, or gain money or be jealous; a lot of fishes can not even have memory longer than a few seconds! The reincarnation theory is false, as you are unsure yourself otherwise you would have no need to interview these people or find people on newspapers or online for their stories as deep within you, you have doubts.
I am trying to be straight to the point and unfortunately blunt, it is just to make everyone think and educate, even myself.

If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.
As of late; the old teachings of 'Consciousness' from past eastern philosophies, is becoming popular once again. One of the root components in most forms of consciousness teachings is that man/women can, within himself, transcend physical existence & experience their own goodness as being 'One' with the universe, exalting ones self to God like comparison. If you no longer see error in your actions or others, then Guru Nanak would have had no need to disavow Hinduisms teachings, and being a different religious path. The consciousness ideology is more compatible with Buddhism than Sikhism. The SGGS points out we are all committing evil sins and that this is our main battle in life & to know and obey God. These teachings also promotes certain scriptures in all major religions to promote is belief systems. We can not elevate ourselves anyway near God. The 'He is Me' phrase, is a phrase between our Guru and his Master and Teacher - 'The True Guru'. It is meant on a spiritual context. A normal person does not have this trait until a certain declaration and decision is met.
If ego is false, is depression also false? I see many people daily who are over confident and prideful. If pride is a sin to a serious God, then is it false to God?
When we die; only our physical body dies, our soul never dies. We do go to another place to begin an infinite life as a soul, and not reincarnation. This infinite life is decided by your life's decisions and sins on this Earth. The one and only main thing in life is if you accepted and obeyed the True Living God. Life is like a few seconds long compared to the afterlife. That is why many people near death experience a flashback of their life's in a few seconds and they felt a strong presence behind them watching and analysing their life. They did not look behind but somehow knew it was God.
Dalvinder Singh; you can not believe reincarnation and Heaven/Hell, it is one or the other. There is no one that can confirm if another person says that they lived a previous life and that this is not a hallucination or dream. There are hardly any people that share memories of someone's previous life. A case may be made for a one off, without confirming their validity. If reincarnation was so, then why can not many of these people tell you their lives as an animal? As it is not so, more people would want to believe in reincarnation than God giving everyone one unique body with one unique fingerprints, lips, ears, face, nose. What does this say? You are unique and animals here in this world are not, have a think. Reincarnation also can not work if someone becomes an animal as they can not sin and be judged; or a fish for example. There is nothing to separate one fish from another. A fish can not plot murder, or gain money or be jealous; a lot of fishes can not even have memory longer than a few seconds! The reincarnation theory is false, as you are unsure yourself otherwise you would have no need to interview these people or find people on newspapers or online for their stories as deep within you, you have doubts.
I am trying to be straight to the point and unfortunately blunt, it is just to make everyone think and educate, even myself.

If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.
You idea of sin and hell / heaven and one life and us being separate from Creator sounds eerily like abrahamic doctrine...

I'm not saying we are 'like' god. I'm saying God is all there truly is. Rest (us included) are like a dream of the creator. But there is and always will be only one dreamer. The 'I Am' behind all of us is that ONE Creator. There is no 'elevating to be like' because we are not something separate. The ONE is ALL. This kills idea of separate souls jumping bodies for different lifetimes like some view reincarnation, and it also kills idea of 'we' being here one life and then going to some promised heaven or hell. If that were the case we would not be aiming to merge with Creator. The truth is there is no 'we' there is only the ONE.

Quantum physics also glimpses this. Matter is over 99.9999% empty space and what's left is electrons and quarks (protons and neutrons break down to quarks). Now through experiments which they can reproduce over and over again, they have seen that these basic subatomic particles can pop into and out of existence. Electrons can behave as either a particle (something tangible) or a wave (something which has no substance of its own) and the factor which causes this wave of energy to form into a particle???? A conscious observer. That shows that the base of he universe is conscious energy and not matter. Pure frequency, vibration. Matter arises out of consciousness. Now the fact that we can also affect these particles / waves if we observe ourselves, it shows our conscious awareness is part of that awareness (the I AM) which exists at the base of this reality and is not a product of complexity of matter as was previously thought. Scientists get all nervous about this because it challenges a major belief about our self awareness that was held for a long time. Google the measurement problem and the double slit experiment for more.

This serves as at least a glimpse into the working of reality and agrees with the shabads I posted above. There is only one 'I AM' which is the same 'I AM' behind all characters in this 'dream' but there is only one dreamer.... Akal Purakh.

The idea of a separate existence and one life with a promise of hell or heaven afterward does not fit with what Gurbani is saying. The hell is what we create - hell is remaining separated from Waheguru - and not so much separated but not realizing we are always connected. Like a drop of water from the ocean, people often say the drop is away from the ocean but in our case we never left the ocean, we just forgot we were here. Such is the nature of Maya. The illusion is keeping us from realizing we are actually already merged with Creator and always have been. We are asleep... and immersed in the dream and have forgotten we are (collectively) the dreamer.
 
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Harkiran Kaur

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If you read the entire shabad you will see that it's speaking of the true guru and us... the true guru as in Sat Guru... it's talking about the realization of being not something separate as in...
(Full shabad is in the quote)

ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ||
Sohaʼn āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e.
One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥
Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9||
When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||

ਮਿਲਿਆ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੇਲੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਪਤੀਆਇ
Mili▫ā kā ki▫ā melī▫ai sabaḏ mile paṯī▫ā▫e.
Why speak of union to those who are already united with the Lord? Receiving the Shabad, they are satisfied.

ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਵੀਛੁੜਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਇ
Manmukẖ sojẖī nā pavai vīcẖẖuṛ cẖotā kẖā▫e.
The self-willed manmukhs do not understand; separated from Him, they endure beatings.

Why are self will manmukhs separated while Gurmukhs are already in union? Because they understand... they have recognized that 'he IS me' are already united and have killed the ego identity which further back in the shabad says is only here for this short play. They have realized they are more than that identity, that they are already one with God.


ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਜਲ ਕਮਲੇਹਿ
रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी जल कमलेहि ॥
Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī jal kamlehi.
O mind, love the Lord, as the lotus loves the water.

ਲਹਰੀ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਛਾੜੀਐ ਭੀ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਅਸਨੇਹਿ
लहरी नालि पछाड़ीऐ भी विगसै असनेहि ॥
Lahrī nāl pacẖẖāṛī▫ai bẖī vigsai asnehi.
Tossed about by the waves, it still blossoms with love.

ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਜਲ ਮਰਣੁ ਤਿਨੇਹਿ ॥੧॥
जल महि जीअ उपाइ कै बिनु जल मरणु तिनेहि ॥१॥
Jal mėh jī▫a upā▫e kai bin jal maraṇ ṯinehi. ||1||
In the water, the creatures are created; outside of the water they die. ||1||

ਮਨ ਰੇ ਕਿਉ ਛੂਟਹਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਪਿਆਰ
मन रे किउ छूटहि बिनु पिआर ॥
Man re ki▫o cẖẖūtėh bin pi▫ār.
O mind, how can you be saved without love?

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਬਖਸੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਭੰਡਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
गुरमुखि अंतरि रवि रहिआ बखसे भगति भंडार ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ anṯar rav rahi▫ā bakẖse bẖagaṯ bẖandār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
God permeates the inner beings of the Gurmukhs. They are blessed with the treasure of devotion. ||1||Pause||

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਨੀਰ
रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी मछुली नीर ॥
Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī macẖẖulī nīr.
O mind, love the Lord, as the fish loves the water.

ਜਿਉ ਅਧਿਕਉ ਤਿਉ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਣੋ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਸਰੀਰ
जिउ अधिकउ तिउ सुखु घणो मनि तनि सांति सरीर ॥
Ji▫o aḏẖika▫o ṯi▫o sukẖ gẖaṇo man ṯan sāʼnṯ sarīr.
The more the water, the more the happiness, and the greater the peace of mind and body.

ਬਿਨੁ ਜਲ ਘੜੀ ਜੀਵਈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਭ ਪੀਰ ॥੨॥
बिनु जल घड़ी न जीवई प्रभु जाणै अभ पीर ॥२॥
Bin jal gẖaṛī na jīv▫ī parabẖ jāṇai abẖ pīr. ||2||
Without water, she cannot live, even for an instant. God knows the suffering of her mind. ||2||

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਚਾਤ੍ਰਿਕ ਮੇਹ
रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी चात्रिक मेह ॥
Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī cẖāṯrik meh.
O mind, love the Lord, as the song-bird loves the rain.

ਸਰ ਭਰਿ ਥਲ ਹਰੀਆਵਲੇ ਇਕ ਬੂੰਦ ਪਵਈ ਕੇਹ
सर भरि थल हरीआवले इक बूंद न पवई केह ॥
Sar bẖar thal harī▫āvle ik būnḏ na pav▫ī keh.
The pools are overflowing with water, and the land is luxuriantly green, but what are they to her, if that single drop of rain does not fall into her mouth?

ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਈਐ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੇਹ ॥੩॥
करमि मिलै सो पाईऐ किरतु पइआ सिरि देह ॥३॥
Karam milai so pā▫ī▫ai kiraṯ pa▫i▫ā sir ḏeh. ||3||
By His Grace, she receives it; otherwise, because of her past actions, she gives her head. ||3||

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਜਲ ਦੁਧ ਹੋਇ
रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी जल दुध होइ ॥
Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī jal ḏuḏẖ ho▫e.
O mind, love the Lord, as the water loves the milk.

ਆਵਟਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਖਵੈ ਦੁਧ ਕਉ ਖਪਣਿ ਦੇਇ
आवटणु आपे खवै दुध कउ खपणि न देइ ॥
Āvtaṇ āpe kẖavai ḏuḏẖ ka▫o kẖapaṇ na ḏe▫e.
The water, added to the milk, itself bears the heat, and prevents the milk from burning.

ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਵਿਛੁੰਨਿਆ ਸਚਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੇਇ ॥੪॥
आपे मेलि विछुंनिआ सचि वडिआई देइ ॥४॥
Āpe mel vicẖẖunni▫ā sacẖ vadi▫ā▫ī ḏe▫e. ||4||
God unites the separated ones with Himself again, and blesses them with true greatness. ||4||

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਚਕਵੀ ਸੂਰ
रे मन ऐसी हरि सिउ प्रीति करि जैसी चकवी सूर ॥
Re man aisī har si▫o parīṯ kar jaisī cẖakvī sūr.
O mind, love the Lord, as the chakvee duck loves the sun.

ਖਿਨੁ ਪਲੁ ਨੀਦ ਸੋਵਈ ਜਾਣੈ ਦੂਰਿ ਹਜੂਰਿ
खिनु पलु नीद न सोवई जाणै दूरि हजूरि ॥
Kẖin pal nīḏ na sov▫ī jāṇai ḏūr hajūr.
She does not sleep, for an instant or a moment; the sun is so far away, but she thinks that it is near.

ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥੫॥
मनमुखि सोझी ना पवै गुरमुखि सदा हजूरि ॥५॥
Manmukẖ sojẖī nā pavai gurmukẖ saḏā hajūr. ||5||
Understanding does not come to the self-willed manmukh. But to the Gurmukh, the Lord is always close. ||5||

ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਗਣਤ ਗਣਾਵਣੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ
मनमुखि गणत गणावणी करता करे सु होइ ॥
Manmukẖ gaṇaṯ gaṇāvaṇī karṯā kare so ho▫e.
The self-willed manmukhs make their calculations and plans, but only the actions of the Creator come to pass.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ
ता की कीमति ना पवै जे लोचै सभु कोइ ॥
Ŧā kī kīmaṯ nā pavai je locẖai sabẖ ko▫e.
His Value cannot be estimated, even though everyone may wish to do so.

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੬॥
गुरमति होइ त पाईऐ सचि मिलै सुखु होइ ॥६॥
Gurmaṯ ho▫e ṯa pā▫ī▫ai sacẖ milai sukẖ ho▫e. ||6||
Through the Guru's Teachings, it is revealed. Meeting with the True One, peace is found. ||6||

ਸਚਾ ਨੇਹੁ ਤੁਟਈ ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਸੋਇ
सचा नेहु न तुटई जे सतिगुरु भेटै सोइ ॥
Sacẖā nehu na ṯut▫ī je saṯgur bẖetai so▫e.
True love shall not be broken, if the True Guru is met.

ਗਿਆਨ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ
गिआन पदारथु पाईऐ त्रिभवण सोझी होइ ॥
Gi▫ān paḏārath pā▫ī▫ai ṯaribẖavaṇ sojẖī ho▫e.
Obtaining the wealth of spiritual wisdom, the understanding of the three worlds is acquired.

ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਕਾ ਗਾਹਕੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੭॥
निरमलु नामु न वीसरै जे गुण का गाहकु होइ ॥७॥
Nirmal nām na vīsrai je guṇ kā gāhak ho▫e. ||7||
So become a customer of merit, and do not forget the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||7||

ਖੇਲਿ ਗਏ ਸੇ ਪੰਖਣੂੰ ਜੋ ਚੁਗਦੇ ਸਰ ਤਲਿ
खेलि गए से पंखणूं जो चुगदे सर तलि ॥
Kẖel ga▫e se paʼnkẖ▫ṇūʼn jo cẖugḏe sar ṯal.
Those birds which peck at the shore of the pool have played and have departed.

ਘੜੀ ਕਿ ਮੁਹਤਿ ਕਿ ਚਲਣਾ ਖੇਲਣੁ ਅਜੁ ਕਿ ਕਲਿ
घड़ी कि मुहति कि चलणा खेलणु अजु कि कलि ॥
Gẖaṛī kė muhaṯ kė cẖalṇā kẖelaṇ aj kė kal.
In a moment, in an instant, we too must depart. Our play is only for today or tomorrow.

ਜਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਮੇਲਹਿ ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਚਾ ਪਿੜੁ ਮਲਿ ॥੮॥
जिसु तूं मेलहि सो मिलै जाइ सचा पिड़ु मलि ॥८॥
Jis ṯūʼn melėh so milai jā▫e sacẖā piṛ mal. ||8||
But those whom You unite, Lord, are united with You; they obtain a seat in the Arena of Truth. ||8||

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਊਪਜੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਜਾਇ
बिनु गुर प्रीति न ऊपजै हउमै मैलु न जाइ ॥
Bin gur parīṯ na ūpjai ha▫umai mail na jā▫e.
Without the Guru, love does not well up, and the filth of egotism does not depart.

ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ
सोहं आपु पछाणीऐ सबदि भेदि पतीआइ ॥
Sohaʼn āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e.
One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥
गुरमुखि आपु पछाणीऐ अवर कि करे कराइ ॥९॥
Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9||
When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||

ਮਿਲਿਆ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੇਲੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਪਤੀਆਇ
मिलिआ का किआ मेलीऐ सबदि मिले पतीआइ ॥
Mili▫ā kā ki▫ā melī▫ai sabaḏ mile paṯī▫ā▫e.
Why speak of union to those who are already united with the Lord? Receiving the Shabad, they are satisfied.

ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਵੀਛੁੜਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਇ
मनमुखि सोझी ना पवै वीछुड़ि चोटा खाइ ॥
Manmukẖ sojẖī nā pavai vīcẖẖuṛ cẖotā kẖā▫e.
The self-willed manmukhs do not understand; separated from Him, they endure beatings.

ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰੁ ਘਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਦੂਜੀ ਜਾਇ ॥੧੦॥੧੧॥
नानक दरु घरु एकु है अवरु न दूजी जाइ ॥१०॥११॥
Nānak ḏar gẖar ek hai avar na ḏūjī jā▫e. ||10||11||
O Nanak, there is only the one door to His Home; there is no other place at all. ||10||11||

[\quote]
 

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I do not disagree with Abrahamic Religions saying there is a Heaven and Hell, I agree completely. For times sake I will explain why I hold this view. I will not explain scientific points that the average person cannot discern if it is true, or my experiences.

Guru Nanak's life changed when he disappeared from a nearby river, only his clothes were left. He came back three days later implying; that he went up to Heaven and met God who revealed to him that he has nothing to do with Hinduism or Islam; and told him what he expected him to tell the people around his area.

You can not have hot water without cold water. You can not have light without dark. Hence you can not have Heaven without Hell. The way our universe is made there is an equal and opposite.

He is caught and thrown into the most horrible hell - SGGS Page 309


Our Earth is round and deep inside their is lava at a certain depth, I'm sure we all agree upon this.
If I have a full bottle of water with the lid off and squeeze it slowly and slowly, eventually the water will fall out and spill. Instead of the water that spilled there is now space in that part of the bottle.
We have volcanoes here on Earth. If Hell was true, then please analyse this. Volcanoes have become more active over time, as more and more people die the volcanoes shoot out more and more lava, creating space deep within the Earth. The way our Earth is designed with other examples fits the Heaven/Hell answer from my perspective. Above our Earth we have a star, directly centre above our Earth, that never moves, and has no scientific reason for it to be held there. They may try to explain it but I do not buy it, much like how I do not buy how it rains. If rain comes up from the oceans/mountains then how are droughts caused? If this is so, then why is the water salty there and clean when it reaches us. I hope you have somewhat an idea of the direction I am going.

Also when I used to think of death I would always be afraid. Now I realise why. If your finger touches fire, your body will make you pull the finger back. Your body here is hinting to you about your first experience with fire. When one thinks of death, if they have fear, then why is your body/mind telling you to fear once you die, could your body be trying to tell you something? Only once I came across certain experiences of my life that changed me, I surprisingly was at peace when thinking about death. When I mean about death, I mean how I felt, not how I thought.

Also the SGGS repeats 2 things more than anything else, literally every page or every other page. First is the love of God from the human Gurus. Secondly is the message that you need to know the naam, the name of the Lord to be saved. What do we need to be saved from more? Hell with no hope, or reincarnation where we can live again?


Quotes for the other repliers to reflect upon:

mwns dyh bhuir nh pwvY kCU aupwau mukiq kw kru ry ] (220-15)
maanas dayh bahur nah paavai kachhoo upaa-o mukat kaa kar ray.
You shall not obtain this human body again; make the effort - try to achieve liberation!

iqsu iniv iniv lwgau pweI jIau ]2] (216-17)
tis niv niv laaga-o paa-ee jee-o. ||2||
Bowing low, I fall at the Feet of the Lord.

krxI aupir hovig swr ] (1169-4)
karnee upar hovag saar.
According to their deeds, they shall be judged.


haumY mwir imlwieAnu gur kY sbid qry ] (90-18)
ha-umai maar milaa-i-an gur kai sabad taray.
They conquer their egotism and meet with the Lord; they are saved through the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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We will have to agree to disagree I am afraid. I don't think you are getting past the individual identity to see everything as ONE. I am looking beyond all duality as duality is part of the Creation. A Sikh is supposed to strive for that ONEness, not some promised Heaven vs a Hell which would mean they were still indeed very much within the illusion of Maya. Only where duality is rectified and everything is unity and ONE is the 'I AM' free from duality.
 

RD1

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Our Earth is round and deep inside their is lava at a certain depth, I'm sure we all agree upon this.
If I have a full bottle of water with the lid off and squeeze it slowly and slowly, eventually the water will fall out and spill. Instead of the water that spilled there is now space in that part of the bottle.
We have volcanoes here on Earth. If Hell was true, then please analyse this. Volcanoes have become more active over time, as more and more people die the volcanoes shoot out more and more lava, creating space deep within the Earth. The way our Earth is designed with other examples fits the Heaven/Hell answer from my perspective. Above our Earth we have a star, directly centre above our Earth, that never moves, and has no scientific reason for it to be held there. They may try to explain it but I do not buy it, much like how I do not buy how it rains. If rain comes up from the oceans/mountains then how are droughts caused? If this is so, then why is the water salty there and clean when it reaches us. I hope you have somewhat an idea of the direction I am going.
Are you proposing that hell literally and physically exists within the earth?
 
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dalvindersingh grewal

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If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.
As of late; the old teachings of 'Consciousness' from past eastern philosophies, is becoming popular once again. One of the root components in most forms of consciousness teachings is that man/women can, within himself, transcend physical existence & experience their own goodness as being 'One' with the universe, exalting ones self to God like comparison. If you no longer see error in your actions or others, then Guru Nanak would have had no need to disavow Hinduisms teachings, and being a different religious path. The consciousness ideology is more compatible with Buddhism than Sikhism. The SGGS points out we are all committing evil sins and that this is our main battle in life & to know and obey God. These teachings also promotes certain scriptures in all major religions to promote is belief systems. We can not elevate ourselves anyway near God. The 'He is Me' phrase, is a phrase between our Guru and his Master and Teacher - 'The True Guru'. It is meant on a spiritual context. A normal person does not have this trait until a certain declaration and decision is met.
If ego is false, is depression also false? I see many people daily who are over confident and prideful. If pride is a sin to a serious God, then is it false to God?
When we die; only our physical body dies, our soul never dies. We do go to another place to begin an infinite life as a soul, and not reincarnation. This infinite life is decided by your life's decisions and sins on this Earth. The one and only main thing in life is if you accepted and obeyed the True Living God. Life is like a few seconds long compared to the afterlife. That is why many people near death experience a flashback of their life's in a few seconds and they felt a strong presence behind them watching and analysing their life. They did not look behind but somehow knew it was God.
Dalvinder Singh; you can not believe reincarnation and Heaven/Hell, it is one or the other. There is no one that can confirm if another person says that they lived a previous life and that this is not a hallucination or dream. There are hardly any people that share memories of someone's previous life. A case may be made for a one off, without confirming their validity. If reincarnation was so, then why can not many of these people tell you their lives as an animal? As it is not so, more people would want to believe in reincarnation than God giving everyone one unique body with one unique fingerprints, lips, ears, face, nose. What does this say? You are unique and animals here in this world are not, have a think. Reincarnation also can not work if someone becomes an animal as they can not sin and be judged; or a fish for example. There is nothing to separate one fish from another. A fish can not plot murder, or gain money or be jealous; a lot of fishes can not even have memory longer than a few seconds! The reincarnation theory is false, as you are unsure yourself otherwise you would have no need to interview these people or find people on newspapers or online for their stories as deep within you, you have doubts.
I am trying to be straight to the point and unfortunately blunt, it is just to make everyone think and educate, even myself.

If I tell anything false or a lie, then eventually in time every lie is found out.
Possibly you have not read me the way I have written. I clearly said that I have interviewed some chaps who remembered their life before rebirth and it was so beyond doubt. Hence I do not doubt life after death. I said for more details further study should be carried out where questions like 'why no one remembers if he was an animal or otherwise' can be solved. There was studied being depicted on one of the net where a lady was shown as getting the individual recall his past life. There were some people who were animals and birds in their past life as well. Why they got various lives was also discussed. To say that there is no after life mere on guess work cannot be accepted. If one has not come across scuh cases one cannot just say that there is no case of after life.
 

chazSingh

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Best method is to find out for your self :) everything else is just study, ideas, thoughts etc etc...

Guru Ji has given is a way to prove to ourselves all that we wish to know...take the jump...do it, find out, live it, breath...then you don;t need proof...you dont need a scientific experiment...because 'you' were the experiment...

do it..its the only way to know these things...without it, all you have is belief...and belief on its own is nothing..belief as a foundation to take the jump and explore is EVERYTHIGN!!
 

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