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Reincarnation / Transmigration: Revisited & Re-explored

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the trouble with this is, sometimes the simple literal interpretations were never meant to be taken either simply or as literally, in my own view.

Given sizeable population was illiterate [13th Century], Nanak and all the Banikars spoke to the masses in their own local dialect - use of complex and sophisticated techincal jargon would've defeated the objective with which they set out to achieve. According to the literal rule [Law] it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not. If we depart from the plain and obvious meaning on account of such views [yours], we in truth do not construe the "actual" wording but alter it. Take for example, the mool mantra, in particular the wording, "ajunee". Straight away the mind signals the brain to compartmentalise this ajunee and work out meaning. In its simplist form a "june" is a physical presence of a species within the confines of this beautiful universe and by putting a prefix [a], Nanak negated it to effect its actual and simple meaning, which otherwise is the cycle of birth, death and rebirth. By default, evidence is there - believing is another thing.

I am not so sure, my understanding is that Brahminical practices go hand in hand with Hindu ideology. I do not believe he grabbed something and refined it, nor do I believe that Sikhism is a halfway house between Islam and Hinduism, in my opinion, he fashioned something brand new and from scratch. Any references to Vedic or Muslim philosophy were meant to be references not suggestions nor was he condoning them, in fact, I find most references are made quite tongue in cheek.

What feels right to believe is powerfully shaped by the culture we grow up in. From a Sociologist's perspective, looking at Nanak's culture [Hindu ideas, literature, Art, Science and a shade of Islamite], biological make [Hindu parents, kin, family, friends, etc] and cognitive disposition [mindset - disillusioned with religious belief of his time, i.e Hindu/Muslem conflict and bigotry] one is drawn to conclude how many of Nanak's fundamentals came to shape him from his childhood. The process begins from the moment we are born, based initially on our sense perception. For example, objects fall downwards [gravity] and gradually our sense perceptions expand as we grow to more abstract ideas and propostions. In Nanak's case, not surprisingly, from the belief sysytem he encountered. As social beings, beliefs are learned from the people we are more closest to - this'd be Nanak's parents. And, if I'm to accept your assertion that Nanak started from scratch based on direct experience, then that would defy the law of cause and effect, which is intrinsic to human nature. What we come to believe is shaped to a large extent by our culture, genetics, and psychology. And, as we grow to adulthood, we tend to have a relatively coherent and resilient set of beliefs that stay with us forever.

and should stay very much Hindu

No comment

This does not follow that reincarnation is therefore part of Sikhism.

In my humble opinion, you may gain valuable knowledge if you were to study some not all of Sikh History. This will put you on a good stead to understand some of the basics, so that, process of elimnation becomes simpler and absolute. Hazur Sahib and much more has a reincarnation ring to it, which cannot be dismissed without intellectual investgation for the want of respect and reverence - again in my humble opinion.

I have never thought of Sikhism as a leap of faith, I feel it is more pragmatic than that.

I was generalising "belief"

Not all of us believe in Hemkunt Sahib, some of us see it as nothing more than a location that is responsible for much misery in people trying to reach it. I do not accept that Guru Gobindji had a past life, nor Banda Bahadur. It is not even out of subjectivity nor rationality, but out of what I feel the SGGS has taught me.

Sikh institutions and the millions that turn out to pay their respects have a sense of belonging. Of course, you are entitled to your view and belief.

pragmatism?

Reserved

Enjoyed conversing with you brother H, but must put this reincarnation n thing to bed coz there's life out there.

Goodnight and Godbless
 

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Originalji

A forum is no good if there is only one voice, we are all learning from each other.
Gentlemen

It is my pleasure to be interacting with "good souls" like yourselves. Both, occupation and preoccupation is now more or less listening to Gurbani and spreading the "word" of Baba Nanak to those who seek.

I'm at your service when ever you call.

The beauty of Sikh scriptures is to be found in "living" and "enjoying" life.

Sikhism speaks of pleasures, happiness and bliss. Sizeable population now days cannot get beyond the first let alone the third. Gurbani has so much to offer, the aspiring soul, an apt has to attune to it.

SPN is like a "water hole" in the middle of nowhere, where during the dry season all animals congregate to quench their thirst. Prey and predator both know the game and take their chances, soul mates know this is the place to find lost ones - similarly, I love surfing because my own kind is found.

The only possession I have is Satnam Waheguru - enough to take the world on.

Love you n Leave you until another time.

Respectfully yours
 

japjisahib04

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I was going through the following pankties and was wondering 'rizk' in following pankties, is it the food for manh and or body? And in ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ is ਉਪਾਈ relates with God or with our manh. And who created Brahma, Vishnu whose mind was intoxicated by emotional attachment. Will God create such things or is it our manh, thus brahma throughout gurbani stands for our thought process and not mythological dieties. And once he moves to thought process then guru sahibs says ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ thus 8.4 millions traits are not created by God but our manh and ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ the food to transform all these traits is divine message as gurbani says 'sarab rog ka aukhad naam'. In next line ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ over here ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ is of manh thus again stands for thought process is transformed all with the grace of divine intellect.

ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥੧॥੧੧॥

The beauty of unique methodology adopted by guru sahib is that he starts with God but reverts back on himself because ultimate aim of guru sahib was to fix mind to be truthful.

I invite comments on above.
 

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I was going through the following pankties and was wondering 'rizk' in following pankties, is it the food for manh and or body? And in ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ is ਉਪਾਈ relates with God or with our manh. And who created Brahma, Vishnu whose mind was intoxicated by emotional attachment. Will God create such things or is it our manh, thus brahma throughout gurbani stands for our thought process and not mythological dieties. And once he moves to thought process then guru sahibs says ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ thus 8.4 millions traits are not created by God but our manh and ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ the food to transform all these traits is divine message as gurbani says 'sarab rog ka aukhad naam'. In next line ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ over here ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ is of manh thus again stands for thought process is transformed all with the grace of divine intellect.

ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥੧॥੧੧॥

The beauty of unique methodology adopted by guru sahib is that he starts with God but reverts back on himself because ultimate aim of guru sahib was to fix mind to be truthful.

I invite comments on above.
Japjisahib Ji
I respond to your enquiries in blue:

I was going through the following pankties and was wondering 'rizk' in following pankties, is it the food
Rizk in this instance is food for body
for manh and or body? And in ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ is ਉਪਾਈ relates
with God or with our manh. And
with God [you could read oopai in this instance to mean, creator/preserver. In other instances it could be read as, solution/problem - emphasis on solution as a rebuttal to a concern. This is poetry, the writer will use mix of situations to put his view across]
who created Brahma, Vishnu whose mind was intoxicated by emotional attachment. Will God create
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are offspring's of Shakti [Energy]. This is the Hindu Trinity, pauri 29 Of Jap Ji Sahib put's them in an adjective context to advance flow and rhythm of stream
such things or is it our manh, thus brahma throughout gurbani stands for our thought process and not
Guru Nanak moved away from these entities [Trinity] and formed above them - IK ON KAR, because these are perishable and Ikonkar is imperishable
mythological dieties. And once he moves to thought process then guru sahibs says ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ thus 8.4 millions traits are not created by God but our manh and ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ the food to transform all these traits is divine message as gurbani says 'sarab rog ka aukhad naam'.
Accept it as an ideology [8.4 june] to help you understand Gurbani, otherwise look at it as "evolution" [growing in spirituality and in intelligence]. In today's understanding 8.4 june is modern day theory of evolution [only as reference]
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥੧॥੧੧॥

The beauty of unique methodology adopted by guru sahib is that he starts with God but reverts back on himself because ultimate aim of guru sahib was to fix mind to be truthful.
This is how you read into it [subjective]. Guru Ji starts of praising "objectively" [nirgun] of the wonders God has done, creation and preservation and then homes in Waheguru [subjectively, sargun] to say, "hey Waheguru Ji - tera hi ha sub kush"
I invite comments on above.

Japjisahib Ji - It is interesting to know our descent as a race to make sense of who we are.

When you study Race n Sex - you begin to discover the descent of man and get a better picture of Human Exodus. Our ancestral roots will help build a picture of our culture, tradition, custom and system of belief. This will paint a picture of Baba Nanak and other writers of SGGSJ to give a social perspective from which we can deduce, infer and imagine the conditions prevalent at the times in which they lived and how "they" saw "reality".

Gurbani for the Gurus and Bhagats was "Romeo and Juilet" - true love - story of separation - atman parmatma.





 

japjisahib04

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Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are offspring's of Shakti [Energy]. This is the Hindu Trinity, pauri 29 Of Jap Ji Sahib put's them in an adjective context to advance flow and rhythm of stream
While interpreting gurbani we should never forget the fundamental, 'jo brahmandai soi pindai' whatever vocabulary relating with other religious beliefs guru sahib have used, how we can apply them to our inner state of mind

Rizk in this instance is food for body
My understanding of rizk for manh comes by reading, 'ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਵੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥

And in ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ is ਉਪਾਈ relates
with God or with our manh. And
with God [you could read oopai in this instance to mean, creator/preserver. In other instances it could be read as, solution/problem - emphasis on solution as a rebuttal to a concern. This is poetry, the writer will use mix of situations to put his view across. Accept it as an ideology [8.4 june] to help you understand Gurbani, otherwise look at it as "evolution" [growing in spirituality and in intelligence]. In today's understanding 8.4 june is modern day theory of evolution [only as reference]
Again since God creations are infinite tera ant n jaey lakhiya thus we cannot limit his creation into 8.4 million junes whereas yes manh creations can be measured.

This is my understanding I could be wrong too
 

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While interpreting gurbani we should never forget the fundamental, 'jo brahmandai soi pindai' whatever vocabulary relating with other religious beliefs guru sahib have used, how we can apply them to our inner state of mind

My understanding of rizk for manh comes by reading, 'ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਵੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥

Again since God creations are infinite tera ant n jaey lakhiya thus we cannot limit his creation into 8.4 million junes whereas yes manh creations can be measured.

This is my understanding I could be wrong too
Japjisahib Ji

Gurbani is universal and is expressed from a viewpoint of both subjectivity [sargun] and objectivity [nirgun].

The "Rizk" used in the earlier stanza on page 1403 of SGGSJ was within that context of the meaning conferred, that is, food. The Rizk you're referring to now, on page 1429 of SGGSJ is within a different context. Here [1429] the writer is referring to the delicacy of food [vastu] which is placed in a platter [thal]. In other words, on page 1403 the writer is appreciating the provider [God] for providing food [Rizk] for creation and on page 1429 the writer is saying, "look human soul, there are 3 delicate dishes, truth, contentment and divine wisdom. Above the three is placed Amrit. He who eats will be saved".

The context in which food [Rizk] has been used by the writers to advance their viewpoint is different.

Sikhism is not rigid in principle, it is a way of life based on profound thought process and practical experience of life.

As a religion it can be divided into three categories: doctrinal, practical and emotional. The three interact with one another and must reflect a balanced approach, that is to say, you cannot just be emotional and not practical. Much of Sikhi is taken on emotional and doctrinal level when it should be taken to account for the three fundamentals interacting and working together to produce harmonious life and not independently gauged.

The beauty of Gurbani is that all the writers discuss practically the above 3 aspects independently at various places. They all inspire the human soul to do good deeds, encourages it to gain experience and cultivate maturity within belief. The basic idea underlying all this is, humankind's own faith. In other words, humankind will be able to have faith in God only if it has faith in themselves. Religion intervenes to advance this, to secure and connect the individual soul for a deeper and a fuller experience.

Gurbani is the light of life and must be accepted as such so to effect balanced composite direction to individuals life.

In my personal view, to get the full flavour of Gurbani is to know something about the writer, the writer's social, personal, emotional, political and religious inclinations. Human history helps us to understand our own bearings so that we can relate to a particular culture at a particular time and place in human civilisation. Did we [Sikh] always live in Punjab ? What and who were the Indus Valley people? Who were the Aryans who brought with them Hinduism into the Northern plains of India, in which lived the Sikh Gurus ?

These kind of questions helps one to understand the conditions within which subject matters were found and are now treasured in the living God of the Sikhs - SGGSJ.

Much obliged !

Good day
 

japjisahib04

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n other words, on page 1403 the writer is appreciating the provider [God] for providing food [Rizk] for creation and on page 1429 the writer is saying, "look human soul, there are 3 delicate dishes, truth, contentment and divine wisdom. Above the three is placed Amrit. He who eats will be saved".
Dear Original,
Thanks for your input but when I look at the sequence of sabds on whole of page 1403 and after, I see the topic in sequence is concerning kaam krodh lobh and not sustenance for health. Further simple question 'is God providing sustenance for us human being' or is it because of the wisdom bestowed upon and our efforts that we generate food by killings millions of insects through pesticide. Guru sahib clearly says, 'ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥ SGGS 374 what message do you take from this pankti. It is all hukam which is prevailing throughout and us human's intelligence that is generating enough food.

Further we daily read in Japjisahib, 'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ - Now what is He giving that we really got weary of receiving His gifts. If we take the meaning of 'thak pae as tired of receiving of foods' then it contradicts 'bhukhiya bukh n utra jai banna puriya bhar' as 'trishna virlai kee hi bhujee rai, Guru sahib says it is wrong even to think that appetite for hunger of status, greatness, commendation, money, even our belly and beauty could ever be quenched even by piling up loads of worldly riches of countless worlds or reaching to the level of Bill Gates, as hunger of mind is wealth and beauty which is limitless and is insatiable, and thus the desire of the hunger to experience God remains a dream. It means in traditional interpretation either gurbani is contradictory or something wrong with our understanding. Even otherwise gurbani is for our spiritual upliftment to create harmony and not worldly gifts. Thus I take the meaning 'his grace of spiritual wisdom is continuously raining and whosoever, ' ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਜੋ ਭਾਡਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ thus mind is not stablised if our vessel is unclean and upside down.
 
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Dear Original,
Thanks for your input but when I look at the sequence of sabds on whole of page 1403 and after, I see the topic in sequence is concerning kaam krodh lobh and not sustenance for health. Further simple question 'is God providing sustenance for us human being' or is it because of the wisdom bestowed upon and our efforts that we generate food by killings millions of insects through pesticide. Guru sahib clearly says, 'ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥ SGGS 374 what message do you take from this pankti. It is all hukam which is prevailing throughout and us human's intelligence that is generating enough food.

Further we daily read in Japjisahib, 'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ - Now what is He giving that we really got weary of receiving His gifts. If we take the meaning of 'thak pae as tired of receiving of foods' then it contradicts 'bhukhiya bukh n utra jai banna puriya bhar' as 'trishna virlai kee hi bhujee rai, Guru sahib says it is wrong even to think that appetite for hunger of status, greatness, commendation, money, even our belly and beauty could ever be quenched even by piling up loads of worldly riches of countless worlds or reaching to the level of Bill Gates, as hunger of mind is wealth and beauty which is limitless and is insatiable, and thus the desire of the hunger to experience God remains a dream. It means in traditional interpretation either gurbani is contradictory or something wrong with our understanding. Even otherwise gurbani is for our spiritual upliftment to create harmony and not worldly gifts. Thus I take the meaning 'his grace of spiritual wisdom is continuously raining and whosoever, ' ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਜੋ ਭਾਡਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ thus mind is not stablised if our vessel is unclean and upside down.

Japjisahib Ji

Once upon a time, when we were illiterate [here I'm suggesting the vast majority of the Punjabi population at the times when ascribe was going on] the guru's written word was taken as sacred, true and implicitly believed. It wasn't down to any qualifications or conditions. Humankind then and now excell in all frontiers on the very principle of "believing" it - unconditionally.

Gurbani is poetic - analysing it using academic criteria is acceptable provided it is done methodically. Correct interpretation [pls read my past texts on this thread] supported by full explanation is a relatively short analytical approach which describes the possible meanings and relationships of the words, images, and other small units that make up Gurbani. This then helps in an effective way for a reader to connect to its underlying meaning/plot and conflicts with its structural features.

For example, consider Jap Ji Sahib as a dramatic situation in which a new beginning [ideology] is to take shape and the proponent, Guru Nanak addresses his audience with a view to "unravel" the otherwise shrouded in mystery the Hindu ideology. How he does it and what he uses to put his ideas together is a skill. It requires on the readers part to know something about the time in which it was written and the social circumstances surrounding, but more importantly the "subject matter" the proponent is trying to advance. Caution need to be exercised at all times that there is an element of "divine intervention" where the subject matter must be taken out of context and revered as true.

As an overview, Jap Ji Sahib can be split into three subsections:

1. God: his nature, character, identity, creation and his manifestations
2. Humankind: relationship and realisation of God and its place within the
workings of the cosmos
3. Universe: deterministically working with the ability to afford relative freedom of
the will to achieve a teleological end via morality.

What you've cited above ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ must be read within the context of God [1] to effect its proper interpretation. Here Guru Nanak is telling the audience of his Satnam in terms of giver [God] of food and consumer [Humankind]. The image intended to portray by Nanak is to show the audience the greatness of Waheguru [meaning, so great is Nanak's God that it keeps feeding endlessly and never running short of supply, but the consumers do end up getting tired].

The gist of what I'm saying is to perhaps ask relevant questions in order to grasp meaning and intent of the writer. And, sometimes it helps if the questions were:

1. What is being advanced ?
2 What conflicts if any [e.g. Guru Nanak tells the audience in pauri 3 to 7 about
purity and impunity with a view to sway them over to his path from the traditional
Hindu practice] ?
3. What is the theme ?
4. Who is the writer?
5. Why is he writing and what are his reasons for writing ?

To get the beauty of Jap Ji Sahib look at the form Nanak used - question and answer. Then look at the designed parts, namely how Nanak dramatises conflicts of ideas in language [metaphor and simle]. By concentrating on the parts, we develop our understanding of the Nanak's intended structure, and we gather support and evidence for our interpretations.

Sir, no pen can capture its true significance no matter how much we analyse. Take Gurbani as food for the soul and leave the mind locked up in closet somewhere.

Many thanks
 
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From my perspective of understanding the gurbani and concept of reincarnation it is this. If we are an energy; I would use electricity as a metaphor. When you switch it on according to the appliance you become apart of the process. Leave it still an that energy can transform into numerous waves an beacons that carry the flow of the current in mind.
 

Ishna

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Does Sikhi believe in Hell?

And is it possible to believe in Hell and reincarnation at the same time?

Because Gurbani speaks of both.

It also tells us we won't get this opportunity again... so is it full of contradictions?
 

japjisahib04

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And is it possible to believe in Hell and reincarnation at the same time? Because Gurbani speaks of both. It also tells us we won't get this opportunity again... so is it full of contradictions?
Gurbani guides us on a unique path and there is no contradiction only condition that it needs to be understood in humility without unbiased in netural state of mind. Only way to reconcile these positions which are at the opposite side of spectrum is context of relative and absolute and ultimately shift of perception, transcendence to absolute reality otherwise one may feel doubts/feel contradictions regarding positions held in both compositions.

You please list those pankties where you will there is contradiction and I will try to clarify.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Exactly this!!!! If there is only ONE in existence, then ALL of us... we are not really the individuals we think we are! We are just another manifestation of the ONE. When people think of reincarnation, they think of a separate 'soul' an individual which is reincarnated as that same individual soul, different from other souls going through the same thing. What I get from Gurbani is that these characters we are playing right now, are not really who we are. There is only ONE entity - ONE consciousness of which we are ALL a part of. The reincarnation is in playing the part of another character, but the actor behind us all is the same ONE actor. This is a dream of the Creator, and we are the dream characters. But all of us, the awareness, the 'I AM' behind each and every one of us, the SAME ONE.

Since the word 'pragmatic' keeps coming up over and over here... pragmatism for me has led me to this deduction - reading Gurbani and also having a working knowledge of quantum physics which seems to suggest that in fact we are all ONE conscious energy field. I know a few on here will say their pragmatism has led them some other direction. I don't care... my pragmatism has shown me this truth.

Perhaps some thought needs to be given towards what exactly is being reincarnated. Is it the individual or the One?

Remember this shabadh? GGS page 736:

ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧
रागु सूही महला ५ घरु १
Rāg sūhī mėhlā 5 gẖar 1
Raag Soohee, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
बाजीगरि जैसे बाजी पाई ॥
Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.
The actor stages the play,

ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥
नाना रूप भेख दिखलाई ॥
Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.
playing the many characters in different costumes;

ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
सांगु उतारि थम्हिओ पासारा ॥
Sāʼng uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.
but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,

ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
तब एको एकंकारा ॥१॥
Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||
and then he is one, and only one. ||1||

ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥
कवन रूप द्रिसटिओ बिनसाइओ ॥
Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.
How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?

ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
कतहि गइओ उहु कत ते आइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਊਠਹਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥
जल ते ऊठहि अनिक तरंगा ॥
Jal ṯe ūṯẖėh anik ṯarangā.
Countless waves rise up from the water.

ਕਨਿਕ ਭੂਖਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗਾ ॥
कनिक भूखन कीने बहु रंगा ॥
Kanik bẖūkẖan kīne baho rangā.
Jewels and ornaments of many different forms are fashioned from gold.

ਬੀਜੁ ਬੀਜਿ ਦੇਖਿਓ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰਾ ॥
बीजु बीजि देखिओ बहु परकारा ॥
Bīj bīj ḏekẖi▫o baho parkārā.
I have seen seeds of all kinds being planted -

ਫਲ ਪਾਕੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
फल पाके ते एकंकारा ॥२॥
Fal pāke ṯe ekankārā. ||2||
when the fruit ripens, the seeds appear in the same form as the original. ||2||

ਸਹਸ ਘਟਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਆਕਾਸੁ ॥
सहस घटा महि एकु आकासु ॥
Sahas gẖatā mėh ek ākās.
The one sky is reflected in thousands of water jugs,

ਘਟ ਫੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਓਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ॥
घट फूटे ते ओही प्रगासु ॥
Gẖat fūte ṯe ohī pargās.
but when the jugs are broken, only the sky remains.

ਭਰਮ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
भरम लोभ मोह माइआ विकार ॥
Bẖaram lobẖ moh mā▫i▫ā vikār.
Doubt comes from greed, emotional attachment and the corruption of Maya.

ਭ੍ਰਮ ਛੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥੩॥
भ्रम छूटे ते एकंकार ॥३॥
Bẖaram cẖẖūte ṯe ekankār. ||3||
Freed from doubt, one realizes the One Lord alone. ||3||

ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਬਿਨਸਤ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
ओहु अबिनासी बिनसत नाही ॥
Oh abẖināsī binsaṯ nāhī.
He is imperishable; He will never pass away.

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਜਾਹੀ ॥
ना को आवै ना को जाही ॥
Nā ko āvai nā ko jāhī.
He does not come, and He does not go.

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਧੋਈ ॥
गुरि पूरै हउमै मलु धोई ॥
Gur pūrai ha▫umai mal ḏẖo▫ī.
The Perfect Guru has washed away the filth of ego.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੀ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
कहु नानक मेरी परम गति होई ॥४॥१॥
Kaho Nānak merī param gaṯ ho▫ī. ||4||1||
Says Nanak, I have obtained the supreme status. ||4||1||


The same life-force appears as a snake, a bird, a plant, a fish, etc.
 

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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Exactly this!!!! If there is only ONE in existence, then ALL of us... we are not really the individuals we think we are! We are just another manifestation of the ONE. When people think of reincarnation, they think of a separate 'soul' an individual which is reincarnated as that same individual soul, different from other souls going through the same thing. What I get from Gurbani is that these characters we are playing right now, are not really who we are. There is only ONE entity - ONE consciousness of which we are ALL a part of. The reincarnation is in playing the part of another character, but the actor behind us all is the same ONE actor. This is a dream of the Creator, and we are the dream characters. But all of us, the awareness, the 'I AM' behind each and every one of us, the SAME ONE.

Since the word 'pragmatic' keeps coming up over and over here... pragmatism for me has led me to this deduction - reading Gurbani and also having a working knowledge of quantum physics which seems to suggest that in fact we are all ONE conscious energy field. I know a few on here will say their pragmatism has led them some other direction. I don't care... my pragmatism has shown me this truth.
so who exactly are you? is the current persona that is writing this post relevant?
 
Last edited:

Sherdil

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Jan 20, 2014
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Exactly this!!!! If there is only ONE in existence, then ALL of us... we are not really the individuals we think we are! We are just another manifestation of the ONE. When people think of reincarnation, they think of a separate 'soul' an individual which is reincarnated as that same individual soul, different from other souls going through the same thing. What I get from Gurbani is that these characters we are playing right now, are not really who we are. There is only ONE entity - ONE consciousness of which we are ALL a part of. The reincarnation is in playing the part of another character, but the actor behind us all is the same ONE actor. This is a dream of the Creator, and we are the dream characters. But all of us, the awareness, the 'I AM' behind each and every one of us, the SAME ONE.

Since the word 'pragmatic' keeps coming up over and over here... pragmatism for me has led me to this deduction - reading Gurbani and also having a working knowledge of quantum physics which seems to suggest that in fact we are all ONE conscious energy field. I know a few on here will say their pragmatism has led them some other direction. I don't care... my pragmatism has shown me this truth.
Harkiran ji,

I tend to agree with most of your interpretations of gurbani. It's only when you discuss OBE's that I have to distance myself. Most people have not had these experiences. I don't believe our Gurus had these experiences. Therefore, I don't think they are necessary to further one's Sikhi. One can eradicate Haumai without having an OBE. I'm not trying to dispute the relevance of your experience, but I think it's best to discuss gurbani on level ground so that people from all walks of life can relate.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Check out this link... I don't know how much truth is in it... but it suggests Guru Nanak Dev Ji did do Astral Projection. http://www.wahegurunet.com/astral-plane

But any context I use OBEs referring to my experiences are just to say how I arrived at my understanding of the Universe... because they are very relevant to me. I know others don't necessarily have the same experiences. However, I think most anyone CAN experience OBEs if they want to. There are techniques that show how to do it. And no they are not necessary in Sikhi. But again, to me they are pertinent to my understanding of the Universe.
 

Ishna

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Indeed, to each their own, and a very large grain of salt.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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But any context I use OBEs referring to my experiences are just to say how I arrived at my understanding of the Universe...
could you apply this understanding and answer my above question please, otherwise, frankly it just makes a mockery of debate to just keep posting the same information again, and again, and again.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Jul 21, 2012
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could you apply this understanding and answer my above question please, otherwise, frankly it just makes a mockery of debate to just keep posting the same information again, and again, and again.
exactly... and since this was already answered many times by myself, original Ji, Chaz Ji etc it doesn't need to be said again.
 

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]This is a shabad mentioned by respected member Gyani ji a few times so I was keen to explore further. I have given the shabad and literal word meanings. Please have a go at putting these together...

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