Sikhi Quasi-Pragmatists And Quasi-Spiritualists, Care To Explain?

[chazSingh]

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

Those are your feelings. Mine are thoughts. I never mentioned anything about your feelings.

Hey,

are thoughts always completely mutually exclusive to feelings as you describe? do they sometimes cross over and effect each other?

maybe a discussion for another thread....

 

[Navdeep88]

What is being 'Spiritual' anyway? Is it where you shout it from your lungs and you become it?

Does it help to declare bankruptcy and that's it? Or is it more complex, and requires follow through on a consistent basis from a person, so their financial health is taken care of?

Is Spirituality a private component to a VERY comprehensive lifestyle. Or does it exist/have value alone?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I thought I did? Wasn't the question why he would reject the thread and was he being pragmatic when he did it? My answer was I don't think he was being pragmatic. I think he recognized that he was not Hindu and did not believe in Hindu polytheism, instead knowing the truth of ONEness - One God which is ALL. IN the same light as rejecting stone idols because why worship a piece of stone when God is everywhere in everything... including yourself. Or perhaps since he knew the reality of ONEness was the truth, maybe rejecting anything but, was being pragmatic (practical?). For someone who has had spiritual experiences, following the spiritual path WOULD be pragmatic, no?? (practical, proven)?

Was there another question about pragmatism?

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh,

The rest of the questions are in the posts #7 and 8 in this thread. One was addressed to you then.

 

[chazSingh]

What is being 'Spiritual' anyway? Is it where you shout it from your lungs and you become it?

Does it help to declare bankruptcy and that's it? Or is it more complex, and requires follow through on a consistent basis from a person, so their financial health is taken care of?

Is Spirituality a private component to a VERY comprehensive lifestyle. Or does it exist/have value alone?

raag kaedhaaraa baanee kabeer jeeo kee
ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||
ousathath ni(n)dhaa dhooo bibarajith thajahu maan abhimaanaa ||
lohaa ka(n)chan sam kar jaanehi thae moorath bhagavaanaa ||1||
thaeraa jan eaek aadhh koee ||
kaam krodhh lobh mohu bibarajith har padh cheenhai soee ||1|| rehaao ||
raj gun tham gun sath gun keheeai eih thaeree sabh maaeiaa ||
chouthhae padh ko jo nar cheenhai thinh hee param padh paaeiaa ||2||
theerathh barath naem such sa(n)jam sadhaa rehai nihakaamaa ||
thrisanaa ar maaeiaa bhram chookaa chithavath aatham raamaa ||3||
jih ma(n)dhar dheepak paragaasiaa a(n)dhhakaar theh naasaa ||
nirabho poor rehae bhram bhaagaa kehi kabeer jan dhaasaa ||4||1||

Raag Kaydaaraa, The Word Of Kabeer Jee:
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
Those who ignore both praise and slander, who reject egotistical pride and conceit,
who look alike upon iron and gold - they are the very image of the Lord God. ||1||
Hardly anyone is a humble servant of Yours, O Lord.
Ignoring sexual desire, anger, greed and attachment, such a person becomes aware of the Lord's Feet. ||1||Pause||
Raajas, the quality of energy and activity; Taamas, the quality of darkness and inertia; and Satvas, the quality of purity and light, are all called the creations of Maya, Your illusion.
That man who realizes the fourth state - he alone obtains the supreme state. ||2||
Amidst pilgrimages, fasting, rituals, purification and self-discipline, he remains always without thought of reward.
Thirst and desire for Maya and doubt depart, remembering the Lord, the Supreme Soul. ||3||
When the temple is illuminated by the lamp, its darkness is dispelled.
The Fearless Lord is All-pervading. Doubt has run away, says Kabeer, the Lord's humble slave. ||4||1||


3 components to Maya - we should try to be in Sat Karams as much as possible - but this is still a component of Maya...

eventually actions are done with absolutely no thought of reward....simran is continuous, daily...and the fourth state starts to become apparent..

everything is interlinked...Spirituality doesn't have any boundaries...our whole existence is spiritual...

 

[BhagatSingh]

@chazSingh

Also we do spirituality in a pragmatic way.

 

[chazSingh]

@chazSingh

Also we do spirituality in a pragmatic way.

we do indeed

but it will only lead so far...i think realm of grace and beyond...starts to throw pragmatism out the window

 

[BhagatSingh]

we do indeed

but it will only lead so far...i think realm of grace and beyond...starts to throw pragmatism out the window

How so?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

@chazSingh

Also we do spirituality in a pragmatic way.

Yes we have practical means by which we approach spirituality.... like simran, seva, sangat, doing paath, kirtan, following RM. etc.

What confuses me, is that the word 'pragmatic' has been thrown around here in a way which (by those who did so) tries to invalidate the spiritual altogether, in favour of belief in only a purely physical (this one life) existence, and dismissing any notion of anything else (existence beyond this physical life, merging back with creator. existence as a spiritual being and interpreting Gurbani to be speaking only of states of mind in a psychological sense.

In reality I think it's far more accurate to say that our existence is nonphysical... from both a Gurbani standpoint AND science.

So... does pragmatism mean shunning any idea of spiritual?? (ie, I have no proof therefore it must not exist type of thinking) or does it simply mean approaching spiritually practically (ie implementing things in your life to further your realization of the spiritual)??

 

[Tejwant Singh]

@chazSingh

Also we do spirituality in a pragmatic way.

I agree, hence it becomes one's duty to learn from one's own spiritual life-Piri- and practice it in the temporal-Miri-, which is spirituality itself. Life of Miri Piri are two parallel tracks where the Gurmat train runs for the journey of the individual.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I agree, hence it becomes one's duty to learn from one's own spiritual life-Piri- and practice it in the temporal-Miri-, which is spirituality itself. Life of Miri Piri are two parallel track where the Gurmat train runs for the journey of the individual.

Can you please answer for me this once and for all... since you have never come out and actually say it, except to say that Gurbani is only speaking about states of mind....

Do you *personally* believe (whether through gurbani, intuition, experience or otherwise) believe that there is more to our existence than this one limited physical life? You have said you do not believe in reincarnation / transmigration or any kind of survival of a part of us after physical death. Do you believe then, that everything just goes black and we cease to exist forever?? Is this what you mean by pragmatic?

 

[BhagatSingh]

Yes we have practical means by which we approach spirituality.... like simran, seva, sangat, doing paath, kirtan, following RM. etc.

What confuses me, is that the word 'pragmatic' has been thrown around here in a way which (by those who did so) tries to invalidate the spiritual altogether, in favour of belief in only a purely physical (this one life) existence, and dismissing any notion of anything else (existence beyond this physical life, merging back with creator. existence as a spiritual being and interpreting Gurbani to be speaking only of states of mind in a psychological sense.

In reality I think it's far more accurate to say that our existence is nonphysical... from both a Gurbani standpoint AND science.

So... does pragmatism mean shunning any idea of spiritual?? (ie, I have no proof therefore it must not exist type of thinking) or does it simply mean approaching spiritually practically (ie implementing things in your life to further your realization of the spiritual)??

Well it is possible to be a materialist and still have a "spiritual" practice. For that you need not believe in anything outside of the physical. We could be physical beings practicing meditation to be in a stat of equanimity because it works. There may not be anything outside of neurons, or after death. You can even believe in ghosts and be a materialist, saying that ultimately everything is physical, it gave birth to spirit (somewhat similar to Shaktism)

However when it comes to Guru Granth Sahib and talking about what Guru Sahibs believed then we can't simply repeat what we believe and attribute it to them.

The poets of Guru Granth Sahib were not materialists with spiritual practice.

They believed in a caretaker Universal Spirit who incarnates every so often to save humanity. They believed that spirits were immortal and survived death and continued on taking births if they did not learn the art of detachment. They believed that the goal of our human existence was to try to merge back into the Universal Spirit, through the art of worship.

They professed these beliefs quite clearly and there is no way to ignore them while reading Guru Granth Sahib.

You can be a materialist sikh. However you cannot say Guru Sahibs were materialists, as you are.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

"Harkiran Kaur, post: 207998, member: 18224"]Yes we have practical means by which we approach spirituality.... like simran, seva, sangat, doing paath, kirtan, following RM. etc.

Could you elaborate what you mean by the above as far as being practical is concerned ?

What confuses me, is that the word 'pragmatic' has been thrown around here in a way which (by those who did so) tries to invalidate the spiritual altogether, in favour of belief in only a purely physical (this one life) existence, and dismissing any notion of anything else (existence beyond this physical life, merging back with creator. existence as a spiritual being and interpreting Gurbani to be speaking only of states of mind in a psychological sense.

Would you be kind enough to show the post/s, no matter how tedious the work may be, to clarify who gave you the above impression and in what sense here at SPN? Facts are the easiest means to clarify any misunderstanding.

In reality I think it's far more accurate to say that our existence is nonphysical... from both a Gurbani standpoint AND science.

I have no problem with how you perceive The Source- Ik Ong Kaar.

So... does pragmatism mean shunning any idea of spiritual?? (ie, I have no proof therefore it must not exist type of thinking) or does it simply mean approaching spiritually practically (ie implementing things in your life to further realization of the spiritual)??

No body said that here. Please post the post/s that claim the above.

The meaning of Pragmatism is what the dictionary says. Its definition has never changed since it was first used on SPN a long time ago nor in the dictionary.

It seems that the other meaning of Pragmatism that made you think in the manner you do was concocted by someone here.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh

Can you please answer for me this once and for all... since you have never come out and actually say it, except to say that Gurbani is only speaking about states of mind....

I will give it a shot, but I never claimed what you said above in bold.

Do you *personally* believe (whether through gurbani, intuition, experience or otherwise) believe that there is more to our existence than this one limited physical life? You have said you do not believe in reincarnation / transmigration or any kind of survival of a part of us after physical death. Do you believe then, that everything just goes black and we cease to exist forever?? Is this what you mean by pragmatic?

I only know this life hence I want to take the best out of the only one I know.

Thus my answer is very simple. I do not know.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

They believed in a caretaker Universal Spirit who incarnates every so often to save humanity. They believed that spirits were immortal and survived death and continued on taking births if they did not learn the art of detachment. They believed that the goal of our human existence was to try to merge back into the Universal Spirit, through the art of worship.

They professed these beliefs quite clearly and there is no way to ignore them while reading Guru Granth Sahib.

You can be a materialist sikh. However you cannot say Guru Sahibs were materialists, as you are.

Actually I am FAR from materialist!!! I brought it up because... on this site in particular there are those who believe in nothing beyond the physical...

Myself I believe in spiritual existence is ultimately reality. There is no physical in reality... its illusion. All that exists is ONE universal consciousness (Waheguru) who from which everything emanates as if a dream (and Gurbani even likens it to one). So, from ONE formless conscious reality, arises ALL forms and individuals. But ultimate reality is ONEness of everything. And our consciousness is reflection of that ONE consciousness... we just forgot who we are.
So I believe we exist beyond death - because in reality we are all collectively that ONE. Its only through duality / Ego that we experience as individuals instead of recognizing the divine light in ALL. (Plus from certain experiences, I have experienced a perspective from beyond at least this physical body I am in... OBEs) That is certainly not to say I believe I was at the top level of existence... but it did give me perspective that we can and do exist at least beyond THIS physical body.

The way I try to explain it is when you dream at night... you occupy one dream character, and everything else seems separate in that dream world. But in reality when you wake up, you realize that you were not just that character, but it was you who was also controlling the sun, the trees, the grass, the rocks, and every other thing in that dreamworld, animate and inanimate. And who is to say that dreamworld is any less real than this one... and if this world is just another 'dream' then who is really the dreamer?? Waheguru! We are just characters being played by the ONE.

So no, I most definitely am not in the materialist group! Tejwant Ji can vouch for that! Though I am not so sure where he himself falls on this... from his posts I am thinking more on the materialist side.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

Could you elaborate what you mean by the above as far as being practical is concerned ?

--- Practical as in easy to implement in your daily life. Things you can do here and now which will also help you to realize your spiritual existence. What I mean is, by helping the homeless man on the side of the street, you come to see the divine light in that man and realize he and you are one in the same. Through meditation, simran, which is a practical exercise you can do daily, and through it you can realize the divine within yourself. It might not happen right away but you can surpass the physical ego identity and realize God within yourself (and with that, the realization that YOU will never die, even though the character will).

Would you be kind enough to show the post/s, no matter how tedious the work may be, to clarify who gave you the above impression and in what sense here at SPN? Facts are the easiest means to clarify any misunderstanding.

I have no problem with how you perceive The Source- Ik Ong Kaar.

-- One of the shabads we discussed I cant find it right now. Its not under the shabad name or anything. The one on Ang 736 talking about The director staging the play, and playing the parts of all the characters but when the costumes are removed we see there is only ONE, and then the question so many forms where did they come from and where did they go. (paraphrased) In that thread, you interpreted the director staging the play as a human and the characters as states of mind. Whereas myself and others like Chaz Ji, interpret it to be the director is Waheguru and the characters are us. The forms, are all the forms of material universe. While you interpreted it to mean simply things like animal behaviour etc in one human mind. That's just one example I can remember off the top of my head. --

No body said that here. Please post the post/s that claim the above.

The meaning of Pragmatism is what the dictionary says. Its definition has never changed since it was first used on SPN a long time ago nor in the dictionary.

It seems that the other meaning of Pragmatism that made you think in the manner you do was concocted by someone here.

-- There have been many instances where the whole idea of any 'soul' or part of us consciously surviving physical death (reincarnation, transmigration etc... the quotes would have been "Sikhi does NOT believe in reincarnation etc), these ideas were shot down because and I quote "Sikhi is pragmatic" leading one to believe that a "pragmatist" cant possibly contemplate anything beyond the physical.

 

[chazSingh]

How so?

ok, so, by pragmatic i understand it as...i will do something practical and then evaluate what i did, by measuring the progress or the outcome...

so, i pray to a statue...i don;t feel any closer to Waheguru...i stop praying to a statue...good start
so, i sit for meditation on Gurbani...i don;t feel any closer to waheguru...i stop meditating on gurbani.

this is a very pragmatic approach...if i relied on this...i would have stopped here or looked elsewhere...

so, one day i try meditation again...and "boooooooooooom" its different this time...what changed?

its not something i achieved by evaluating a method, or an approach using logic and reasoning.....so what changed?

this time, i felt a burning sensation deep within....where did that come from? this time i felt a pull that i couldnt explain....where did that come from? i feel love....a longing...a thirst...a feeling like being in a fereign land and wanting to return home...home sick...

where is the practical evaluation in that? what domain am i within here? can i relive it? i can try the same method or approach tonight....sit in the same position, speak the same words, meditate in the same way and nothing...

what is it that was different the time it went "boooooom"...i can only call it Surrendering to something that goes beyond all logic and reasoning and evaluation...and trusting it....is it the realm of grace as Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji talk of....i dont know...but lets see where it takes me...

Surrendering means doing something with no want of reward or particular outcome...you just be, and let it be...and you trust the outcome will be whatever outcome was meant to be...His Will...
His Flow...

Being Pragmatic is very useful, gets you at least looking in the right direction...but in the end, it still involves logic...at some point i feel you have to let that go

 

[chazSingh]

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh



I will give it a shot, but I never claimed what you said above in bold.



I only know this life hence I want to take the best out of the only one I know.

Thus my answer is very simple. I do not know.

Do you then believe, that there is a possibility to 'Know' whilst alive in this only life that you currently know?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Do you then believe, that there is a possibility to 'Know' whilst alive in this only life that you currently know?

I haven't the faintest.

 

[chazSingh]

I haven't the faintest.

Now we understand each other better

So then whilst being pragmatic...what are you evaluating?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Chaz ji,

Guru fateh,

I always understood you. I do not feel the need to evaluate anything but Harkiran ji says, Herself, Yourself,and Original ji do. Hence we were divided into two groups .