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Islam Prophet Lot And The Painful Reality Today

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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Jul 4, 2004
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KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
Brother Vouthon Ji,

Thanks for the frankness...I had guessed as much but i wasnt sure. Yes Ji..you have done a great service to your religion and clarified so much. There is so much Goodness in the Holy bible ( I have four copies..one in Gurmukhi, one presented to me by my mentor father of the Catholic Church in my Hometown - my dad the Granthi at the local Gurdwara and the father form the neighboring catholic Church used to have long walks together on a daily basis with me tagging along sometimes..). one from a Group of Seventh day Adventists who also set up a church nearby to the Gurdawara, and last one from a very dear friend in USA who belonged to the salvation Army and used to send flour/powder milk, books, magazines etc for free distribution among the poor..I was his local "agent" ha ha...i still have a few Large Paper Bags with the words..Sent by the People of the USA !! each Copy is a treasure...and your post sent me .."back to the drawing board so to speak...to read again the real story of Lot..THANK YOU.
 

Ishna

Writer
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May 9, 2006
3,261
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Yes, many thanks to you Vouthon bhaji (brother) for an insightful and well written post!

In my curiosity I went to read myself what the Quran has to say about Lot (Lut), and while trying to find the story I ended up by mistake reading the story just before it. I think you might find it interesting. I have put the most pertinent passage in bold.
SECTION 6.

61. To the Thamūd People
(We sent) Sālih, one
Of their own brethren.
He said: "O my People!
Worship God: ye have
No other God but Him.
It is He Who hath produced you
From the earth and settled you
Therein: then ask forgiveness
Of Him, and turn to Him
(In repentance): for my Lord
Is (always) near, ready
To answer."
62. They said: "O Sālib!
Thou hast been of us!—
p. 531
A centre of our hopes
Hitherto! Dost thou (now)
Forbid us the worship
Of what our fathers worshipped?
But we are really
In suspicious (disquieting)
Doubt as to that to which
Thou invitest us."
63. He said: "O my people!
Do ye see?—If I have
A Clear (Sign) from my Lord
And He hath sent Mercy
Unto me from Himself,—who
Then can help me
Against God if I were
To disobey Him? What
Then would ye add
To my (portion) but perdition?
64. "And O my people!
This she-camel of God is
A symbol to you:
Leave her to feed
On God's (free) earth,
And inflict no harm
On her, or a swift Penalty
Will seize you!"
65. But they did ham-string her.
So he said: "Enjoy yourselves
In your homes for three days:
(Then will be your ruin):
p. 532
(Behold) there a promise
Not to be belied!"
66. When Our Decree issued,
We saved Sālib and those
Who believed with him,
By (special) Grace from
Ourselves—
And from the Ignominy
Of that Day. For thy Lord—
He is the Strong One, and Able
To enforce His Will.

67. The (mighty) Blast overtook
The wrong-doers, and they
Lay prostrate in their homes
Before the morning,—
68. As if they had never
Dwelt and flourished there.
Ah! Behold! For the Thamūd
Rejected their Lord and Cherisher!
Ah! Behold! Removed
(From sight) were the Thamūd!
So perhaps Allah and Islam is not as full of hate and confusion as perhaps some of the followers? Some bad apples in the barrel doesn't make them all bad?

And just for completeness, here's the story of Lut:

74. When fear had passed
From (the mind of) Abraham
And the glad tidings
Had reached him, he
Began to plead with Us
For Lūt's people.
75. For Abraham was,
Without doubt, forbearing
(Of faults), compassionate,
And given to look to God.
76. O Abraham! Seek not this.
The decree of thy Lord
Hath gone forth: for them
There cometh a Penalty
p. 535
That cannot be turned back!
77. When Our Messengers
Came to Lūt, he was
Grieved on their account
And felt himself powerless
(To protect) them. He said:
"This is a distressful day."
78. And his people came
Rushing towards him,
And they had been long
In the habit of practising
Abominations. He said:
"O my people! Here are
My daughters: they are purer
For you (if ye marry)!
Now fear God, and cover me not
With shame about my guests!
Is there not among you
A single right-minded man?"
79. They said: "Well dost thou
Know we have no need
Of thy daughters: indeed
Thou knowest quite well
What we want!"
80. He said: "Would that I
Had power to suppress you
p. 536
Or that I could betake
Myself to some powerful support."
81. (The Messengers) said: "O Lūt
We are Messengers from thy Lord!
By no means shall they
Reach thee! Now travel
With thy family while yet
A part of the night remains,
And let not any of you
Look back: but thy wife
(Will remain behind):
To her will happen
What happens to the people.
Morning is their time appointed:
Is not the morning nigh?"
82. When Our decree issued,
We turned (the cities)
Upside down, and rained down
On them brimstones
Hard as baked clay,
Spread, layer on layer,—
83. Marked as from thy Lord:
p. 537
Nor are they ever far
From those who do wrong!
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/yaq/yaq011.htm
 
Feb 23, 2012
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My dear sister Ishna :)

Thank you for your wonderful and illuminating post!

In the Declaration Nostra Aetate, produced by the Second Vatican Council as an official statement on the Church's relationship with other religions, we read: "The Church also has a high regard for the Muslims, who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth" (Nostra Aetate 3). As a result of their monotheism, wonderful submission to God's Will and great devotions, believers in Allah are particularly close to us. We are brothers in Abraham, our common father. We worship the same God.

Your quotations from the Qur'an, highlight a particularly beautiful passage, the one you have bolded, speaking of God saving and pardoning Salib through his grace, in accordance with his Sovereign Will. This is very similar to concepts within Christianity and Sikhi.

One of the common refrains throughout the Holy Qur'an is that God is "compassionate and merciful". Islam has, contained within the Qur'an, 99 names for God that are truly among the most splendid in all of religious literature. In fact the Qur'anic names for God are a real jewel in terms of spiritual books. Blessed Pope John Paul II had nothing but praise for our Muslim brothers' in this respect, however he also noted important, nay crucial, differences:


"...Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the world, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption...For this reason not only the theology but also the anthropology of Islam is very distant from Christianity...Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation...Nevertheless, the religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. It is impossible not to admire, for example, their fidelity to prayer. The image of believers in Allah who, without caring about time or place, fall to their knees and immerse themselves in prayer remains a model for all those who invoke the true God, in particular for those Christians who, having deserted their magnificent cathedrals, pray only a little or not at all... In countries where fundamentalist movements come to power, human rights and the principle of religious freedom are unfortunately interpreted in a very one-sided way-religious freedom comes to mean freedom to impose on all citizens the "true religion." In these countries the situation of Christians is sometimes terribly disturbing. Fundamentalist attitudes of this nature make reciprocal contacts very difficult. All the same, the Church remains always open to dialogue and cooperation..."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope



Consider the passage that you bolded, look closely at this line:

We saved Sālib and those Who believed with him.

It seems to me, from frequent reading of the Holy Qur'an, that one can open up any page of this lusciously and poetically written book of true literary quality and beauty, and yet find continual, almost non-stop diatribes warning against fraternity with the unbelievers and speaking of how damned and awful the unbelievers are.

Indeed the Holy Qur'an, despite is great ethical and religious significance and voluminous contribution to human civilisation, falls down chiefly in the area of believer/unbeliever contact where the holy book creates a virtual apartheid between believers and unbelievers, to the extent that (from my own personal Qur'an):


"...Proclaim: "You shall obey GOD and the messenger." If they turn away. GOD does not love the disbelievers..."

- Qur'an 3:32


I find that particularly hard to stomach. In the Sura of the Women it is written:


"...They (the disbelievers) are your sworn enemies...Indeed, God has prepared a humiliating punishment for the disbelievers...If anyone opposes the Messenger [...] we shall burn him in hell, an evil destination..."

- Qur'an 4:102


Muslims are instructed not to take non-believers as friends:


Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell. Qur'an (3:28) - "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah"


Why?

I would really appreciate brother Naben's help in this respect. I see this as uneccessary guidance and a fermenting of divisions between people, and indeed a fostering of hatred.

I ask this in a spirit of brotherhood and cordiality, brother Naben. I do not understand, please aid my understanding.


I have read the Holy Qur'an, and many of the Hadith. I am somewhat more knowledgeable of the Sunni Hadith (ie Bukhari) than the Shi'ite ones, since apart from portions of the Kitab-al-Kafi there are not all that many English translations of the Shi'a Hadith.

My favourite translation of the Qur'an is the one by Abdel Haleem and published by Oxford University Press, I have it too hand right now. It does take some liberties with certain passages, that is softening them, however for first time reading of the Qur'an it renders the Arabic into very light and intelligible prose.

The Qur'an has, undoubtedly, many wonderful passages in it. There is even a beautiful parable about God being the light of the heavens and the earth, with the image of a lamp in a niche used.

The teachings of this Holy Book were, naturally, revolutionary and innovative in the context of 7th century Arabia. For example Muhammad ended the Arab infanticide of baby girls. This was a significant progression in that civilisation at the time kaurhug

The problem is that, traditionally, Muslims regard the word of the Qur'an and Hadith as literaly valid without considering the context and limitations of the time period.

And so, Islam deserves our respect for its contributions to civilisation, many of its wonderful moral teachings and for the deep religiosity that it creates in its followers which is often unsurpassed.

The Qur'an is a book of great beauty, and I for one do not believe in picking selections out of any holy book and judging a religion on that basis. Nonetheless, I do have question marks regarding the Qur'anic statements about disbelievers, as to - why???
 
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Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
Brother Vouthon Ji,

Thanks for the frankness...I had guessed as much but i wasnt sure. Yes Ji..you have done a great service to your religion and clarified so much. There is so much Goodness in the Holy bible ( I have four copies..one in Gurmukhi, one presented to me by my mentor father of the Catholic Church in my Hometown - my dad the Granthi at the local Gurdwara and the father form the neighboring catholic Church used to have long walks together on a daily basis with me tagging along sometimes..). one from a Group of Seventh day Adventists who also set up a church nearby to the Gurdawara, and last one from a very dear friend in USA who belonged to the salvation Army and used to send flour/powder milk, books, magazines etc for free distribution among the poor..I was his local "agent" ha ha...i still have a few Large Paper Bags with the words..Sent by the People of the USA !! each Copy is a treasure...and your post sent me .."back to the drawing board so to speak...to read again the real story of Lot..THANK YOU.


My dear brother Gyani ji peacesignkaur

Thank you very much for your delightful post!

I am heartened by the warm relationship between your father, a granthi and the father from the neighbouring Catholic Church. What a charming and beautiful friendship they must have had!

Your love of the Bible humbles me - 4 copies, and even one in Gumurkhi, that is truly wonderful!

I am very pleased that you liked my posts, my dear brother. Your kind words are appreciated, as always! peacesign

Much love!
 
Feb 23, 2012
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BTW just to note that Blessed Pope John Paul II kissed the Qur'an while in Damascus, which drew him a lot of respect from Muslims since no Christian - so I am told - has ever in history done it before him:

Pope%20kissing%20koran.png


In an interview, the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch Raphael I affirmed that he was present when John Paul II kissed the Muslim holy book:


"On May 14th I was received by the Pope, together with a delegation composed of the Shi'ite imam of Khadum mosque and the Sunni president of the council of administration of the Iraqi Islamic Bank. There was also a representative of the Iraqi ministry of religion. ....

"At the end of the audience the Pope bowed to the Muslim holy book, the Qu'ran, presented to him by the delegation, and he kissed it as a sign of respect. The photo of that gesture has been shown repeatedly on Iraqi television and it demonstrates that the Pope is not only aware of the suffering of the Iraqi people, he has also great respect for Islam."
 

naben

SPNer
Feb 18, 2012
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Naben please don't call me brother, I am not male.

Thanks for answering the question re Lots wife.

Can you also tell me what you indend to achieve here at SPN? If we wanted lessons in Islam we would go to a Muslim site and look it up ourselves. Why do you keep giving us lessons?
Yes, my dear sister
I apologize

The call to God
And talk to others about the truth
Great work
God says in the Holy Qur'an
33. And who is better in speech than he who [says: "My Lord is Allah (believes in His Oneness)," and then stands straight (acts upon His Order), and] invites (men) to Allah's (Islamic Monotheism), and does righteous deeds, and says: "I am one of the Muslims."
34. The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better (i.e. Allah ordered the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly), then verily! he, between whom and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend.
35. But none is granted it (the above quality) except those who are patient, and none is granted it except the owner of the great portion (of the happiness in the Hereafter i.e. Paradise and in this world of a high moral character).

allah giuded you
 

naben

SPNer
Feb 18, 2012
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27
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Why do you care what homosexuals do? :/ it's not like they want you to be homosexual with them, and they are born that way, they cannot choose.

& If I convert to islam is it okay for me to have 5 husbands?
my dear brother
Not any person can marry four wives
There are certain conditions
Justice among them - to spend on them - the ability of health - the provision of adequate housing



‫احمد ديدات الزواج Ùˆ الطلاق Ùالإسلام - راااااائع‬‎ - YouTube

God willing, will soon be talking about that
 

naben

SPNer
Feb 18, 2012
201
27
38
The Qur'an is a book of great beauty, and I for one do not believe in picking selections out of any holy book and judging a religion on that basis. Nonetheless, I do have question marks regarding the Qur'anic statements about disbelievers, as to - why???

- Hatred and hostility
For veterans against Islam and Muslims
Like the Jews in Palestine

The peaceful infidels should not fight them or kill them at all

We have to talk to them about the message of Islam to respect

8. Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.

- Love and compassion in dealing with non-Muslims
But
Personal and family secrets of the Muslims and each other
(10) The believers are but brothers, so make settlement between your brothers. And fear Allah that you may receive mercy
This means that
Allah and His Messenger, in the first place
 
Feb 23, 2012
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- Hatred and hostility
For veterans against Islam and Muslims
Like the Jews in Palestine

The peaceful infidels should not fight them or kill them at all

We have to talk to them about the message of Islam to respect

8. Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.

- Love and compassion in dealing with non-Muslims
But
Personal and family secrets of the Muslims and each other
(10) The believers are but brothers, so make settlement between your brothers. And fear Allah that you may receive mercy
This means that
Allah and His Messenger, in the first place


My dear brother Naben ji,

Thank you for your reply to me, however rather than bringing ease to my mind, it has actually strengthened my concerns.

"The believers are but brothers" - consider this statement. Does it not exhibit such narrow-mindedness and enclosure? Only other Muslims are your brothers? There are famile secrets that only Muslims share with other Muslims? If your not a member of the Islamic faith then your not in "the brotherhood"?

I fiond it encouraging that you call us all "brothers", but how does that correlate with the verse of the Qur'an you have quoted above?


The Qur'an says:


"...Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another..."

- Qur'an 48:29


Now lets compare that with the Bible:


"...But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect..."

- Jesus Christ (Gospel of Matthew 5:44-48)



Whereas the Qur'an seems to say that Muslims should be hard towards disbelievers and merciful only to one another, Christian love and charity extends beyond the boundaries of family and faith, to all in need. As Saint Cyprian, the martyred third-century Bishop of Carthage explained, "there is nothing remarkable in cherishing merely our own people with the due attentions of love...Thus the good was done to all men, not merely to the household of faith".

Thus in the year 165, when plagues attacked Rome, the pagan Romans left their family members to die, and even threw them out into the streets, while the Christians of the Empire went out into the streets and cared for the sick pagans, irrespective of their religion, nursing them back to help with many Christians dying of the disease as a result of these selfless acts of charity.

The pagans of Rome were amazed by this, which is why they started converting to Christianity and it eventually became the dominant religion of the Roman Empire.

And so Pope Pius said back in the 1860s:


"...[Many non-Christians are] ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace; because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all...God forbid, then, that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith [non-Christians]. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation...”


- Blessed Pope Pius IX (QUANTO CONFICIAMUR, August 10, 1863)



“…I want to accustom all the inhabitants, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and nonbelievers, to look on me as their brother, the universal brother. Already they’re calling this house “the fraternity” (khaoua in Arabic) — about which I’m delighted — and realizing that the poor have a brother here — not only the poor, though: all men…Above all, always see Jesus in every person, and consequently treat each one not only as an equal and as a brother or sister, but also with great humility, respect and selfless generosity…”


- Blessed Charles de Foucauld (1858- 1916), Catholic mystic and martyr


And indeed all men and women are brothers and sisters regardless of faith:


"...All of humankind is but one family, dispersed over the face of the whole earth; all men are brothers, and ought to love each other as such. May shame and infamy overtake those impious wretches who seek a cruel unnatural glory in the blood of their brothers, which is their own blood...All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers..."

- Archbishop François Fénelon (6 August 1651 – 7 January 1715) (Let. 30), Catholic mystic


"...What a wonderful vision, which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God...This divine law of solidarity and charity assures that all men are truly brothers, without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and societies..."

- Pope Pius XII, Summi Pontificatus (On the Unity of Human Society) October 12, 1939
 
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Ishna

Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,261
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Vouthon bhaji, they are wonderful sentiments and very admirable of the church.

What about witch burning though? Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. So there are still some people who the church would rather see dead?
 
Feb 23, 2012
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United Kingdom
Vouthon bhaji, they are wonderful sentiments and very admirable of the church.

What about witch burning though? Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. So there are still some people who the church would rather see dead?


My dear sister Ishna mundahug


A great question!


First of all, this is our position on execution which we categorically oppose even for serial killers:


"...I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary, that there no longer be recourse to capital punishment, given that states today have the means to efficaciously control crime, without definitively taking away an offender's possibility to redeem himself. Our model of society bears the stamp of the culture of death, and is therefore in opposition to the Gospel message. The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will acclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of Life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform...The universal abolition of the death penalty would be a courageous reaffirmation of the belief that humankind can be successful in dealing with criminality and of our refusal to succumb to despair before such forces, and as such it would regenerate new hope in our very humanity..."

- Pope John Paul II, 1999


The most famous victim of witch-burning was the Catholic Saint Joan of Arc kudihugNaturally we are "on her side" rather than her executors, which is why she was canonised and they weren't.


I asure you that the Catholic Church would rather see no one dead - she even is opposed to capital punishment for serial killers let alone anyone else.


The verse "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is from the Books of Exodus and Deuteronomy in the Old Testament, and it was delivered to the ancient Jews in the context of witches and augurs of the Caananite nations who passed their child through fire to sacrifice them to a God called Molech. When it speak of witchcraft it is talking about these specific pagan practices such as passing children through fire to cast mythical spells and offering them to gods that don't exist in the context of the quote from Exodus/Deuteronomy about augurs, which took place over 1,000 years before Christ.

The canonical penalty of preventing a Catholic from receiving the sacraments for a period of time so as to hit home the gravity of the crime which has taken place - abortion, infanticide or passing children through fire- was what the Catholic Church imposed for this crime.

The Book of Exodus describes how pagan witches and shamens would send children through fire in mystical rituals in a form of child sacrifice that was practiced as late as Roman times in some places.

In the Torah Moses said that the death penalty should be given for witches and shamens that passed their children through fire, however the Early Christians believed that the death penalty was illegal - that no life could be taken away. So they suggested imposed a merely canonical penalty for this crime, not being able to partake of the sacraments.

So Moses outlawed this practice and, yes, he did ordained 3,000 years ago that any person who practised such "witchcraft" - the specific act of passing a child through fire as a sacrifice to the gods - should be executed. 3,000 years ago, that was considered to be an acceptable punishment for burning to death one's own child in a magical incantation. Some even support capital punishment even now.

However from the earliest days the church has opposed the death penalty. Christ overturned these Jewish laws. They don't form part of the New Testament or of Catholicism.


A cursory glance at some of the Fathers confirms this opposition to the death penalty:


“...We cannot endure even to see a man put to death, though justly. We, deeming that to see a man put to death is much the same as killing him, have abjured such spectacles. How, then, when we do not even look on, lest we should contract guilt and pollution, can we put a man to death [by [capital punishment]?...”

Saint Athenagoras of Athens (aprox 180 AD), Catholic Church Father, A Plea for the Christians 35


"...When God forbids us to kill, he not only prohibits the violence that is condemned by public laws, but he also forbids the violence that is deemed lawful by men. Thus it is not lawful to accuse anyone of a capital offense. It makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or by the sword. It is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited. Therefore, regarding this precept of God there should be no exception at all. Rather it is always unlawful to put to death a man, whom God willed to be a sacred animal...”

Lactantius, Catholic Church Father (aprox 240-317 AD), Divine Institutes 6.20


"...During the first few centuries after Jesus' execution, Christians were instructed to not participate in the execution of a criminal, to not attend public executions, and even to not lay a charge against a person if it might possibly eventually result in their execution. Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr and other Christian writers who discussed capital punishment during the first three centuries after Jesus' execution were absolutely opposed to it..."

- VIEWS OF THE EARLY CHRISTIAN MOVEMENTS ON THE DEATH PENALTY


...So as you can see the Church Fathers were clearly opposed to Capital Punishment. Church fathers such as Clement of Rome and Justin Martyr asserted that the taking of human life is incompatible with the gospel and exhorted Christians not to participate in capital punishment.

Sadly from the 5th century onward, the church's opposition to the death penalty declined - after Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire under Theodsius - since it got wrapped up in the affairs of state, and so capital punishment was recognized as a means of deterring the wicked and protecting the innocent.

Many thought the Catholic teaching against capital punishment was too "idealistic". You see in the Ancient World there weren't the mechanisms to imprison criminals that we have now.

St Augustine was the first to propagate this view, but in doing so he broke with the established Church Tradition prior to this. Augustine's view was an inovation.

However the Church later returned to its "roots" and re-affirmed the consistent doctrine of the Fathers, which opposed unequivocally the death penalty.

Now, onto the actual witch-burning aspect.

This was all part of the Medeival Inquisition. Allow me to explain about it a little:

Prior to the 12th century, the Roman Catholic Church did not allow states to suppress 'heresy' or witchcraft or whatever using intimidation or execution. Such punishments too many ecclesiastical opponents, so such a system did not exist in Catholic theology. To provide you with an example, in 350 the first execution for heresy took place (it was orchestrated by secular authorities) but the decision to execute the person was vehemently opposed by the Catholic Church, by the Pope, St Ambrose and St Martin of Tours. Christians believed that you could not force somebody to change their mind. God had given them freewill after all - so if they wanted to be a witch or whatever, then that was their choice. To elucidate the viewpoint of this period, John Chrysostom (d407) one of the greatest of the Church Fathers wrote, "To kill a heretic is to introduce upon earth an inexpiable crime".

This mindset persisted well into and after the age of Muhammad. While in the Islamic world in the later half of the First Millenium men like Al-Hallaj were being tortured and executed for being Sufis, for committing 'heresy' under the Abbassid Caliphate, the Christian World was at that time far more morally advanced. In 827, an order to secure the loyalty of his administration, al-Ma'mun instituted the Mihna, the Islamic inquisition. If anyone left Islam they were executed, as demanded by the Sharia Law of the Hadiths. Islam had become corrupted by this time and still is in many respects to this day.

Punishment for heresy in Europe was unknown until after the 12th century, when religious fervour was on the rise. The Church sought to dispel heresy, such as the Albigensians and Waldenses, using passive, non-violent means. These sects arose in the 12th century amongst Catholics who were rejecting teachings of their faith and opting for dualistic gnostic belief systems. For example, St Francis of Assisi and many others used evangelical poverty and preaching, to try and show groups such as Albigensians - who believed that the material world was ruled by an evil God, that there were thus two Gods and not one - through example and not co-ercion. The Church tried to combat heresies through legislation and by sending preachers to teach them.

Regrettably in the 12th century, to counter the spread of Catharism which was tearing apart the Kingdoms of Europe and causing rebellions against the kings, prosecution of heretics by secular governments became more frequent. You see it was a political thing. Religions united Empires, and kings wanted to keep that unity and power over the massess.

Peter Cantor, the most learned man of this age, expressed the prevailing sentiment within the Church leadership, when he told the secular authorities on behalf of the Church: “Whether they be convicted of error, or freely confess their guilt, Catharists are not to be put to death. Throw them into prison, if you will, but do not put them to death’” (De investigatione Antichrist 3:42).

St. Bernard put down the law, in direct opposition to the mobs, “Fides suadenda, non imponenda.” Men are to be won to the Faith, not by violence, but by persuasion. He censured the princes, arguing that “the obstinate were to be excommunicated and if necessary, kept in confinement for the safety of others” (O’Brien, p. 15). The views of Peter Cantor and St. Bernard were ratified by a whole series of synods during that time: Rheims (1049) under Leo IX, Tolouse (1119) under Callistus II, and the Lateran Council of 1139. The execution of heretics or witches etc. during this period must be considered the arbitrary action of secular rulers and the fanatical mob violence. They were not the result of Church law or authority.

In violation of Catholic teachings, some worldly, evil Bishops handed people convicted of heresy and what-not over too the state, knowing all too well that the state would probably have them executed.

This was a terrible crime, and in modern times, Pope John Paul II apologised for these terrible actions of simply bad individuals. He said:


“An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded.”

—Pope John Paul II


So he made no excuses, and neither do I.

However they are not to do with Catholic teachings, which have always been strictly "pro-life".

It was all about kings consolidating their Empires and stamping out dissent under a veneer of "defending religion" and co-operating with evil Bishops whom they had bribed to support them. For example, in the most infamous case of all, 19 year old warrior-saint Joan of Arc was captured and tried by a Tribunal of Bishops who were under the authority of and woking for the English invaders, her enemies, who had been conquering France.

And then these Bishops handed her over to the English to be burned at the stake and the heroine of France died screaming, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!" as the flames burned her to death.

Her trial was a complete political act and a miscarriage of justice. 20 years later the Pope beatified her and her executors were condemned for this despicable misuse of authority.

She became Saint Joan of Arc and a symbol of all who had stood up against this corrupt authority.

The Inquisition has been terribly exaggerated, according to historians such as Rodney Stark and many others whose findings I will relate too you now.

The facts are quite different. Between 1249 and 1257 the Medeival Inquisition sentenced 230 people to prison and only 21 people were given over to the secular authorities and sentenced to death by them (which is still evil of these Bishops to send innocent people over to an almost certain death). This means that throughout the whole of Europe during the eight year period when the Inquisition reached its height, less than 3 people a year were killed. 90% of the sentences were Church-related penances: fasting, pilgrimage, increased mass attendance etc.

The number of those given over to secular authorities and put to death was very small indeed. Of every hunded people convicted, something like 1 person was executed and 10 were sent to prison.

Abuses of the Inquisition did however take place, most key in the trial of Joan of Arc who later became a Catholic Saint. Conrad of Marburg was a sadist who was notoriously cruel and was eventually murdered by his own populace. In one horrendous miscarriage of justice Robert the Bruge sentenced 180 people to death, including the town's Bishop on charges of heresy. The Church was outraged! His own Dominican order suspended him and then sentenced him to a life imprisonment for executing people without reasonable justification. Believe or not, modern scholars actually think that the Medeival Inquisition was a considerable advancement in the humanitarian treatment of criminals. Manuals, for the first time in history, were produced by the Church to guide judges in their investigations and these provided suspects with a measure of legal recourse, which may help to explain why such little executions as time went on actually occurred.

If you would like me I can happily direct you too historical sources that explain all this in greater depth than myself above.
 
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Ishna

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Thank you brother Vouthon for your reply. I'm at work now and can't reply in the detail I would like to.

Breifly:

Perhaps it is all in the translation, but witchcraft is not limited to passing the child through the fire, it encompasses those who practice sorcery and divination.

The Inquisition was longer than just the Medieval Inquisition. I find it hard to believe the Inquisition was purely political given that women didn't have much political power and they were the ones often tortured and killed.

The Malleus Maleficarum was written by inquisitors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_maleficarum I've read sections of it and it's disgusting.

I think it's safe to say that Islam and Catholicism / Christianity both contain passages in their scriptures that discriminate against non-believers. Both religions have been modernising over time and it is fortunate for the West that Catholicism got off to a head start and we see it today with a very forward-thinking and inclusive doctrine. Islam is also progressing although more slowly due to stronger cultural bonds.

However, the fact remains that both the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran contain passages which are clearly not pro-life.

Where the Bible says straight-up (Exodus chapter 22 http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/exo022.htm):
18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
and
20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

I feel it is one thing to rationalise these portions in the Holy Bible, it is another to point out similar passages of the Holy Quran in a negative light.
 
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My dear sister Ishna gingerteakaur

Thank you again for your reply! This is much appreciated as you are raising very important and thought-provoking issues.

Oh no I wasn't implying that the word witchcraft refers to passing children through fire, nor that this was the crime innocent people were convicted for during the Middle Ages. I was rather explaining that in the context of the use of witchcraft in the Torah it was in relation to the sacrifice of children to Moloch ie the biblical injuction was towards a very specific thing, without any wider applications in the sacred text itself.

And I agree with you as to the horrors of the Inquisition, particularly the Cathar heresy. However it was secular courts that repressed these innocent people. Yes Church authorities as stated earlier, in violation of Catholic teachings - such as numerous canon laws prohibiting capital punishment outright - collaborated with these authorities starting from the late 12th century (1,200 years after Jesus) by handing innocent people convicted of heresy over to the secular authorities, knowing that they would most likely be killed. This was outrageous, which is why Pope John Paul II spent much of his reign making apologies and trying to atone for the sins of these individuals.

However there is a difference between these wicked individuals and the loving teachings of Christ and the Catholic Church. But the point is that one can quote from the Bible and the Church Fathers ans show exactly how these people were going directly against teachings of the faith, which specified that you are not allowed to execute someone for heresy etc.

If you look at the teachings of the Church - how could these inquisitors have been acting in accordance with the Catholic faith when they were ignoring the canons, teachings of Jesus the explicit teaches of the Fathers many centuries before which prohibited capital punishment and indeed more particularly death penalty for heresy or witchcraft (which only received a canonical penalty - excommunication from the Church for a period of 7 months!).

The inquisitors had no authority to change these teachings, they ignored these teachings.

The difference between the bible passages you refer too and the Qur'anic ones is that they are from the Old Testament, specifically the Torah of Moses who lived many centuries before Christ.

They are not from the New Testament. There are no New Testament verses that condemn people to death, or mention execution for witchcraft etc.

When reading the Old Testament one must keep in mind progressive revelation.

Jesus overturned numerous old Testament laws since they were the result of ancient people who were gradually coming out of barbarism towards enlightenment.

One cannot take Old Testament passages overturned by Christ, that were revealed nearly 2,000 years before Muhammad and surely compare these ancient peoples, in far less enlightened times, to people living in the 7th century AD?

For example, in Old Testament times people were stoned to death for adultery. Jesus stopped this by saving an adulterous woman's life. The Church Fathers overturned the capital punishments of the Old Testament and prohibited the death penalty.

Christianity got rid of Jewish circumcision, dietary rules, ritual purifications etc. One could go on.

What we see in the Bible is gradual enlightenment and evolution in morality from the Torah to the Gospels. My dear sister Ishna, all of your quotations have been from the earliest parts of the Bible, whose oral traditions go back over a thousand years before Christ, and nearly 2,000 years before Muhammad and not once have you referred to the New Testament, which is the Holy Book produced by the Catholic Church - not the Old Testament, which we inherited and re-interpreted in light of the new Christian religion.

Christians do not circumcise, or observe dietary laws or do any of the other injuctions commanded by the Old Testament. That's why its the Old Testament - ie Testament - "Covenant", we are not bound by it we are followers of the New Covenant instituted by Jesus. We read and understand the Old Testament in light of the New Testament and Sacred Tradition.

To compare the Qur'an and the Bible fairly then would one not need to compare the Qur'an and the New Testament which is the actual book produced by the Catholic Church?

If I were a Jew, an adherent of the Old Covenant and speaking about the Qur'an, this would be a different matter altogether and you would be completely correct. However as a Christian it is the New Covenant, both in its written form in the New Testament and in its un-written form in Sacred Tradition, that I am bound by.

I look forward to your thoughts as always sister Ishna when you get back from work! kaurhug
 
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I think it's safe to say that Islam and Catholicism / Christianity both contain passages in their scriptures that discriminate against non-believers. Both religions have been modernising over time and it is fortunate for the West that Catholicism got off to a head start and we see it today with a very forward-thinking and inclusive doctrine. Islam is also progressing although more slowly due to stronger cultural bonds

My dear sister Ishna mundahug

I have realized that you are also confusing heresy with non-believers.

A heretic is not a non-believer. All of the people who died during the Medeival Inquisition were not non-Christians but devout Catholics like myself who had a somewhat different understanding of their faith than corrupt, power-hungry Bishops. And because of this, people like Saint Joan of Arc and Jan Hus were given over to secular authorities and executed.

The way the Catholic Church treats non-Christians has always been very different. For example the Jewish Encycloepedia says of Saint Pope Gregory the Great (590-604):


"...Gregory was very emphatic against enforced baptism, preferring conversions brought about by gentleness and kindness. He protected the rights of the Jews, and assured to them the unhindered celebration of their feasts and the undisturbed possession of their synagogues..."

Pope Gregory I (“the Great”) issued the historic decree Sicut Judaeis, “As for the Jews.” He affirmed that the Jews “should have no infringement of their rights … We forbid to vilify the Jews. We allow them to live as Romans and to have full authority over their possessions.” And he was specific in declaring, (1) that the Jews are not to be compelled by force to embrace Christianity, but are only to be baptized of their own free will; (2) that apart from a judicial sentence in a court of law no one is to injure them in life or limb or to take away their property or to interfere with such customary rights as they may have enjoyed in the places where they live; (3) that they are not to be attacked with sticks and stones on occasion of their festival celebrations, nor are they to be compelled to render any feudal services beyond such as are customary; and (4) that their cemeteries in particular are not to violated. Sicut Judaeis was reissued and confirmed by some twenty or thirty subsequent popes during the ensuing 400 years, and is therefore of much more weight in laying down the Church’s view of the duty of toleration, as an abstract principle, than any persecuting edicts evoked by special circumstances.

For example, when anti-semitic mobs tried to attack Jews and prevent them from practising their faith and force them to convert to Christianity, look what decrees the Popes issued:


"...Let no Jew be constrained to receive baptism, and he that will not consent to be baptized, let him not be molested. Let no one unjustly seize their property, disturb their religious feasts, or lay waste their cemeteries..."

- (Pope Innocent III, 1198)


"...We decree moreover that no Christian shall compel them or any one of their group to come to baptism unwillingly. But if any one of them shall take refuge of his own accord with Christians, because of conviction, then, after his intention will have been manifest, he shall be made a Christian without any intrigue. For, indeed, that person who is known to have come to Christian baptism not freely, but unwillingly, is not believed to posses the Christian faith. Moreover no Christian shall presume to seize, imprison, wound, torture, mutilate, kill or inflict violence on them; furthermore no one shall presume, except by judicial action of the authorities of the country, to change the good customs in the land where they live for the purpose of taking their money or goods from them or from others. In addition, no one shall disturb them in any way during the celebration of their festivals, whether by day or by night, with clubs or stones or anything else. Also no one shall exact any compulsory service of them. We decree furthermore that the testimony of Christians against Jews shall not be valid unless there is among these Christians some Jew who is there for the purpose of offering testimony...We decree in order to stop the wickedness and avarice of bad men, that no one shall dare to devastate or to destroy a cemetery of the Jews or to dig up human bodies for the sake of getting money. Moreover, if any one, after having known the content of this decree, should—which we hope will not happen—attempt audaciously to act contrary to it, then let him suffer punishment in his rank and position, or let him be punished by the penalty of excommunication, unless he makes amends for his boldness by proper recompense..."

- Blessed Pope Gregory X, Decree on the Jews, 1272


Ishna are these the words of the leader of a religion which hates non-believers? Rather the Popes tried to do all they could to protect their non-Christian subjects.

May I recommend some of the giants of Jewish historical scholarship. Israel Abrahams, the great Cambridge University scholar, in his monumental book, Jewish Life in the Middle Ages, is one. Abrahams reported, “It was a tradition with the popes of Rome to protect the Jews who were near at hand.” [SIZE=-2]Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1896, p. 400[/SIZE] Even more important, Cecil Roth held Oxford University’s chair in Jewish history from 1939 to 1964 and served as editor-in-chief of the Encyclopedia Judaica. His histories of Jewish life, particularly The History of the Jews of Italy, History of the Jews in Venice, and The Jews in the Renaissance, are still definitive. Throughout his many writings and lectures, Roth insisted that during times of rampant anti-Semitism the popes in Rome were often the only leaders to raise their voices in defense and support of the Jews. “Of all the dynasties in Europe” Roth observed, “the papacy not only refused to persecute the Jews … but through ages popes were protectors of Jews … The truth is that the popes and the Catholic Church from the earliest days of the Church were never responsible for physical persecution of Jews and only Rome, among the capitals of the world, is free from having been a place of Jewish tragedy. For this we Jews must have gratitude.” [SIZE=-2]Quoted by David Goldstein in Jewish Panorama (Boston: Catholic Campaigners for Christ, 1940) p. 200[/SIZE]

Non-Catholics were not under the authority of the Church or the Inquisition of the Church during these times. In fact they seem to have had more liberty in many ways than we Catholics - who had corrupt Church authorities trying to track us for heresy!

Those Catholics didn't have the benefit of a papal decree to defend them from attack.

And prior to the outbreak of conflicts between Europe and the Islamic east, the Popes' view of Islam was also very cordial:


"...He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, 'He is our peace who hath made both one.' This good action was inspired in your heart by God....This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities [. . .] For God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in this life and in the life to come. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth..."


- Pope St. Gregory VII, Letter XXI to Al-Nasir the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya (Algeria), 1076


A thousand years later another Pope writes:


"...I close my greeting to you with the words of one of my predecessors, Pope Gregory VII who in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria...These words, written almost a thousand years ago, express my feelings to you today as you celebrate ‘Id al-Fitr, the Feast of the Breaking of the Fast. May the Most High God fill us with all His merciful love and peace..."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II, Message to the faithful of Islam at the end of the month of Ramadan, April 3, 1991


Not exactly a religious leader who hates non-Christians? The Pope even invokes the family connection between himself and Al-Nasir in Abraham and praises Islam. And he recognises that non-Christians such as Al-Nasir worship the same God God as him in "diverse forms"; are enlightened by the Holy Spirit of God who enlightens all people irrespective of faith; was inspired by God; has grace from God; is praised by all the Catholics of Rome; is seen as a brother in Abraham; is loved "purely"; is wished a long, happy life and eternal happiness.


You seem to have confused heresy with non-belief?

I would have been at risk from the Inquisition had I lived then, sister Ishna, whereas you wouldn't have been.

As far as I am aware there is also nothing in the Bible about non-believers. In the Old Testament you will find wars between Israel and different Gentile nations, but Jews are not a proselytizing faith and never have been. There is no forced conversions to Judaism, and in the New Testament again there is nothing discriminating against non-Christians.

Absolutely nothing. Rather Jesus tells us to love all even our enemies, feed everyone, clothe everyone, care for everyone the Apostles tell us to pray for all, and live peacebly with all.

That is why the Early Christians cared for the pagans dying of the plague, whereas there own people left them to die!

That is historical fact. The Christian Romans selflessly risked their own lives to look after, feed, care for, console the sick non-Christian Romans while those very same Romans were persecuting them, throwing them in front of lions, denying them their right to practise their faith.

For me that is real love and brotherhood of man regardless of faith.
 
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Ishna

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Brother Vouthon ji

Thank you for taking the time to address my concerns in such depth. I will admit my knowledge of Catholicism is shallow at best. Religion can be abused by any and all and when you throw power into the mix then people tend to abuse it.

It is interesting what you say about the Old Testament and the New Testament... I don't really know enough about Christianity to comment on which parts are still relevant and which parts aren't.

You are a credit to your faith, sir.
 
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Also of note is the religious policy of the first Catholic Christian Emperor of Rome, Saint Constantine the Great. He was noted for his remarkable tolerance and defence of pagan religions, and indeed freedom of religion. In fact his Edict of Milan is the first time in history where people were given complete religious freedom to choose a religion of their choice. However he did not tolerate dissent or diversity of opinion within the Catholic Church. This led to conflict with his own Church, since Bishops disputed that he did not have a right to interfere in Church matters.

He allowed any Christian to convert from Catholicism to another religion, and vice-versa, however if you chose to be Catholic then he wanted you to be Catholic in his way. Of course, nobody was killed under his reign for heresy, although conflicts did arise in which he used his Army to crush rebels. But one does wish that he had been as tolerant of diversity in his own religion as he was of other religions. But it highlights nonetheless, that where Catholicism is properly practised, you get complete tolerance and liberty for citizens of different faiths.


You can read some quotes from his edicts and writings now:


"...Each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion...It is one thing acting with free will to enter into contest for immortality, another to compel others to do so by force through the fear of punishment. No one should greatly trouble another, rather, everyone should follow what his soul prefers..."


- Saint Constantine the Great (c.272 337), first Catholic ruler of Roman Empire




"...Amongst those things that are profitable to mankind in general, the reverence paid to the Divinity merited our first and chief attention, and that it was proper that the Christians and all others should have liberty to follow that mode of religion which to each of them appeared best; so that that God might be benign and propitious to us, and to every one under our government. And therefore we judged it a salutary measure, and one highly consonant to right reason, that no man should be denied leave of attaching himself to the rites of the Christians, or to whatever other religion his mind directs him, that thus the supreme Divinity, to whose worship we freely devote ourselves, might continue to vouchsafe His favour and beneficence to us. And accordingly we give you to know that, without regard to any provisos in our former orders to you concerning the Christians, all who choose that religion are to be permitted, freely and absolutely, to remain in it, and not to be disturbed any ways, or molested. And we thought fit to be thus special in the things committed to your charge, that you might understand that the indulgence which we have granted in matters of religion to the Christians is ample and unconditional; and perceive at the same time that the open and free exercise of their respective religions is granted to all others, as well as to the Christians. For it befits the well-ordered state and the tranquillity of our times that each individual be allowed, according to his own choice, to worship the Divinity; and we mean not to derogate aught from the honour due to any religion or its votaries..."


- Saint Constantine the Great (c.272 337), first Catholic ruler of Roman Empire


Rodney Stark, a Protetant historian, speaks of Constantione's religious policy in a recent 2011 book:


"...Although Constantine played a central role in repressing all Christian dissent, he was remarkably tolerant of paganism throughout his reign. Constantine neither outlawed paganism nor did he condone persecution of non-Christians. In fact, although Constantine subsidized and gave official standing to the Catholic Church, he continued also funding pagan temples...More significant even than his toleration of pagan temples, Constantine continued to appoint pagans to the very highest positions, including those of consul and prefect. In addition, pagan philosophers played a prominent role in his court and depictions of the sun god appeared on his coins. Indeed Constantine directed his most ferocious rhetoric not against pagans, but against Christian dissidents...Historians cite the persistence of pagan elements in his reign as examples of his commitment to religious harmony. Of critical importance are two edicts issued by Constantine soon after he defeated LIcinius to reunite the empire. Both stressed peaceful pluralism. The Edict to the Palestinians is notable for the pluralism of its language. In it, Constantine repeatedly referred to God, but never mentioned Christ, using phrases common to Christians and pagans alike which is consistent with the search for a common denominator that was the hallmark of his religious policy. But, it is the Edict to the Eastern Provincials that fully expresses Constantine's commitment to accomodation and his rejection of coercive forms of conversion. He began with a prayer, invoking "the most mighty God" on behalf of "the common benefit of the world and all mankind, I long for your people to be at peace and to remain free from strife". He went on: "Let those who delight in error alike with those who believe partake of the advantages of peace and quiet...Let no one disturb another, let each man hold fast to that which his soul wishes, let him make full use of this". He continued, "What each man has adopted as his persuasion, let him do no harm with this to another...For it is one thing to undertake the contest for immortality voluntarily, another to compel it with punishment". Finally, Constantine condemned "the violent opposition to wicked error...immoderately embedded in some souls, to the detriment to our common salvation". Thus, in both word and deed Constantine supported pluralism, even while making his own commitment to Christianity explicit. In fact, during Constantine's reign, "friendships between Christian bishops and pagan grandees" were well known, and the many examples of the peaceful intermingling of pagan and Christian thought may be thought of as proof of the success of Constantine's policy of consensus and pluralism..."







"...Constantine fostered an atmosphere of religious liberty ... Since it favored all religions equally, the edict expressed a policy of religious liberty, not toleration...All should try to share the benefits of their religious understanding with others, but no one should force his or her truth upon another. … (for according to Constantine)..."it is one thing acting with free will to enter into contest for immortality, another to compel others to do so by force through the fear of punishment. No one should greatly trouble another, rather, everyone should follow what his soul prefers...This edict is a paradigmatic statement of concord. … Since Constantine hopes that common fellowship and the persuasion "of those who believe" will lead everyone freely to choose (what he called) the straight path, he indicates his wish that religious unity will ultimately evolve..."
  • Elizabeth DePalma Digeser, in The making of a Christian Empire: Lactantius & Rome
In principle he (Constantine) treated religion as a matter of choice and conscience, an arena free of state meddling...Liberis mentibus — "With Free minds" — all are to worship their Gods. It is a remarkable policy, an unexpected one, since it would have been natural for a ruler after his conversion to a new religion to shift all the previous relations. … Most of the apologists who defended the Church in the early centuries advocated freedom of religion...the latin rhetor Lactantius developed a theological arguement for religious freedom. Lactantius was close enough to Constantine later to serve as tutor to the emperor's sons, and his influence is evident in many ways in Constantine's own writings...He (Lactantius) asked those who believed in compulsion of religion: "What good can you do, then, if you defile the body but cannot break the will?" It is a surprisingly modern statement, arguing, that religious freedom is the "first freedom", rooted in the very nature of religious life as an exercise of free will...Under Constantine's policy of concord, the Church was flooded with new converts, not through coercion but by force of Imperial example...Eventually, Christian Emperors abandoned Constantinian religious policy...Constantine favoured the Church but gave serious attention to protecting the rights of non-Christians.
  • Peter J. Leithart, in Defending Constantine : The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christendom (2010)
One historian writes:


"...Constantine achieved true religious freedom for pagans and Christians. He did this while cooperating with the Christian church to produce a Roman republic with ethical standards and moral development.

Constantine outlawed an ancient version of "no fault divorce," which led to the abandonment of women, gladiatorial games, which littered arenas with bodies, and the exposure of children, which usually resulted in infanticide. He also passed laws that would provide welfare for poor people who couldn't afford to raise a new baby. He reformed the justice system by eliminating the buying and selling of judgeships, and allowed those who couldn't afford an attorney to appeal to an ecclesiastical court.

It appears that the true pax Romana did not occur under Caesar Augustus but under Constantine, and that we often look positively barbaric next to the first Christian Emperor..."
 
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TigerStyleZ

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Vouthon brother, in my eyes you are more Sikh than catholic - or i have a different view on catholicsm(maybe its teached wrong here?) You are just 1 of 1000- But who am I to say ? We are all Sikhs we just use different terms :)

It is sad that here in german most of them you say is teached vice versa - I knew many catholic churches - who just preach like some sant babas
 
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Vouthon brother, in my eyes you are more Sikh than catholic - or i have a different view on catholicsm(maybe its teached wrong here?) You are just 1 of 1000- But who am I to say ? We are all Sikhs we just use different terms :)

It is sad that here in german most of them you say is teached vice versa - I knew many catholic churches - who just preach like some sant babas


My dear brother Tiger ji mundahug

Thank you for your reply! I appreciate your kind words!

Yes we are all Sikhs - students, learners sitting before Waheguru within our hearts, trying our best to align our will with Him.

Do you know that the Catholic perspective is that spiritually everyone is baptised by love, by their adherence to the Will of God as known to their conscience into the Catholic Church and is therefore a spiritual Catholic?

You see our two beautiful, holy, divinely inspired religions compliment each other. I see in you a wonderful Catholic, and you see in me a Sikh!

We are both devoted to our respective religions, and yet neither of us is blind to the equality of religious progress and the inspired truth that we find in both of our religions.

I see the Holy Spirit fully at work in Sikhism.

Indeed I am convinced that the majority of Sikhs are better Catholics and better Christians than many Catholics. This is because I feel that there is poor education in Catholic Churches today. Catholic schools do not educate children properly in their religion, and there is a real shortage of priests, which means a shortage of great preachers.

I think that you have hit on something very true, and very important.

For example, some Catholics, despite what the Pope says,could most likely be influenced by Western culture and think that heaven is a place, when the Catholic faith teaches the opposite. And yet the average Sikh knows full well that heaven is not a place - and so is closer to the true spirit of Catholicism than the average Catholic, since he is better educated in his faith and more enlightened in this respect.

I find so much to love, cherish and respect in Sikhism. I would encourage all Catholics to study the Sikh faith, since I think that it would open their eyes more fully to the true teachings of their own faith, that has never been taught to them because it is resigned to the seminaries and the clergy.

I think that one day, I am going to become a member of the Dominican Order - the Order of Preachers - as a lay preacher, and re-educate ordinary Catholics in their faith, and spread the Truth around.

That is my plan anyways peacesignkaur

I look forward to learning more and more about Sikhism. I have found nothing in Sikhi that I don't agree with. And I believe firmly that the Sikh Gurus were inspired and that the Guru Granth Sahib ji is a genuine book inspired by the Holy Spirit. I thus accept the Gurus and believe them to be exactly what they claimed to be.

And yet I believe firmly in Christ and all the dogmas of my Church. And so because I owe my allegiance to Catholicism, I am not a formal Sikh even though I believe in One Immortal Being; in the ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Sri Guru Gobind Singh; in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji; in the teachings of the ten Gurus and in the validity for Sikhs of the the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru. However the last requirement of the Rehat Maryada is where I fail the test, because I owe my allegiance to Catholicism and also fully believe in every dogma and doctrine of my faith, including the Trinity and the Incarnation. This is right of the Sikh faith, as with any religion, to have this last requirement since it prevents syncretism.


And so yes I am 100% a Sikh in the way you describe, as we all are even if not formally because of the inability of me agreeing to the last requirement. There is only one religion, ultimately, in the diversity of religious rites/faiths. Of that religion, of that philosophy, we are all members/followers and absolutely all brothers/sisters.

I regard you in the same way vis-a-vis Catholicism ie not a formal Catholic but a spiritual member of the Church.

So as confusing as that might be, I am a Catholic who also fully believes in Sikhism in every way! I think that this is a testament to the true lack of doctrine in Sikhism that I, a non-Sikh, can regard myself as in some way also a Sikh and can agree with practically everything Sikhism teaches, without feeling as if that compromises my Catholic faith.

So yes, its a strange situation to be in but I do believe in the divine inspiration of all faiths, even if I have a particular "soft" spot for Sikhi.

And you know what? I feel like this is perfectly fine from a Sikh perspective, from Guru's perspective, since the Granth teaches that there are many paths and ways to God. Catholicism is one of them and that's my path - but that doesn't mean that I can't recognise the same truth and equality of the other paths to God!

In the end we will all ascend the same Mountain and reach the same summit!


In the Sukhmani (Ashtpadi, 3, Pauri 8), Guru Arjun Dev affirms:



Of all Religions the best Religion is:
To utter the Holy Name with adoration,
And to do good deeds.


In my honest opinion we are both, my dear brother, already members of that one, common, universal religion of the Naam/Word!

I identify this religion with Catholicism, and you identify it with Sikhism. In this way I see all people of good will as in some way, spiritually Catholic whilst you see all people of good will as spiritually Sikhs.

And so we are one - followers of the same religion, if that makes sense!
 
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