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Paurees Suggest A Rather Abrahamic God-figure

Ishna

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Thanks everyone for your replies.

If the problem is in the translation, perhaps you can help me get a different perspective with help of the original.

If it's ok, can we use this paurhee as an example?

ਹਰਿ ਆਪਣੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੇਖਾਲੀਅਨੁ

हरि आपणी भगति कराइ वडिआई वेखालीअनु ॥

Har āpṇī bẖagaṯ karā▫e vadi▫ā▫ī vekẖāli▫an.

The Lord Himself inspires us to worship Him; He reveals His Glorious Greatness.


ਆਪਣੀ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੇਵ ਘਾਲੀਅਨੁ

आपणी आपि करे परतीति आपे सेव घालीअनु ॥

Āpṇī āp kare parṯīṯ āpe sev gẖālī▫an.

He Himself inspires us to place our faith in Him. Thus He performs His Own Service.

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਘਰੀ ਬਹਾਲਿਅਨੁ

हरि भगता नो देइ अनंदु थिरु घरी बहालिअनु ॥

Har bẖagṯā no ḏe▫e anand thir gẖarī bahāli▫an.

The Lord bestows bliss upon His devotees, and gives them a seat in the eternal home.


ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ

पापीआ नो न देई थिरु रहणि चुणि नरक घोरि चालिअनु ॥

Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an.

He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell.


ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਅੰਗੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਿਅਨੁ ॥੧੯॥

हरि भगता नो देइ पिआरु करि अंगु निसतारिअनु ॥१९॥

Har bẖagṯā no ḏe▫e pi▫ār kar ang nisṯāri▫an. ||19||

The Lord blesses His devotees with His Love; He sides with them and saves them. ||19||


Manmohan Singh's translation for comparison:

ਹਰਿ ਆਪਣੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੇਖਾਲੀਅਨੁ

हरि आपणी भगति कराइ वडिआई वेखालीअनु ॥

Har āpṇī bẖagaṯ karā▫e vadi▫ā▫ī vekẖāli▫an.

By putting man to his devotional service, God has manifested His glory.1


ਆਪਣੀ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੇਵ ਘਾਲੀਅਨੁ

आपणी आपि करे परतीति आपे सेव घालीअनु ॥

Āpṇī āp kare parṯīṯ āpe sev gẖālī▫an.

God causes the devotee to place faith in Him and through him performs His own service.

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਘਰੀ ਬਹਾਲਿਅਨੁ

हरि भगता नो देइ अनंदु थिरु घरी बहालिअनु ॥

Har bẖagṯā no ḏe▫e anand thir gẖarī bahāli▫an.

God bestows bliss on His faithful adorers and seats them in the eternal home.


ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ

पापीआ नो न देई थिरु रहणि चुणि नरक घोरि चालिअनु ॥

Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an.

To the sinners He allows not stability. Picking them up, He consigns them to the terrible hell.


ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਅੰਗੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਿਅਨੁ ॥੧੯॥

हरि भगता नो देइ पिआरु करि अंगु निसतारिअनु ॥१९॥

Har bẖagṯā no ḏe▫e pi▫ār kar ang nisṯāri▫an. ||19||

The Lord blesses His devotees, with His love and taking their side saves them.

The word-for-word translations seem to match the original words. Is there something lost in the poetry or subtlety?

Do the words in fact mean what they mean in English, but Sikhs are expected to have more background knowledge to be able to read between the lines?

Thanks
 

spnadmin

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Ishna ji

I don't understand your questions. Could you phrase them a different way? I don't understand what you are asking:

Is there something lost in the poetry or subtlety?

... Sikhs are expected to have more background knowledge to be able to read between the lines?

In all poetry there is always the matter of reading between the lines. Poetry is never a matter of literal meaning even when there are no translation issues.

When poetry is translated, the translator has multiple jobs.
  • At least one task is to give a reasonable translation so that the word meanings from the first language are conveyed as well as they can be.
  • Another task is to capture the meaning in a way that makes sense in the second language. Direct translation from Punjabi to English can sound like gibberish in English.
  • At least one other task calls for interpretation by the translator, so the reader gets the point of the poetry as the translator understands that point.

If the translator can interpret the meaning, and at the same time stay close to the original language, as you have shown, so much the better. That is what professional translators say they try to do. So I think I am missing the point of your questions.
 
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spnadmin

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Let me give a flat-footed example of what I am talking about. Many people object to the use of the word "He" in translations because Akaal is neither male nor female. Other people object to the use of the word "God" because it sounds too Judaeo-Christian, and misses the idea that Akaal is without form. Yet other people object to the use of "Lord."

These objections make light of the translator's dilemma. The tuks actually say neither "He" nor "God' nor "Lord." They say "Har." A direct translation would require that a tuk say "Hari Himself (because Hari is masculine) moves us (inspires us) to devotion (worship)....." The Hari connection however sounds like a Hindu slant on the tuk. To take it that way would also be a mistake because "Har" in the ancient scripture is not god in a literal sense, but a supreme being who takes away pain and suffering and delivers moksha.

So we could translate Har āpṇī bẖagaṯ karā▫e as follows: "A supreme being (who takes away all pain and suffering) moves us to devotion." At this point I wager the translator will lose his western audience, though Buddhists and Jains would probably get it. They would get it because it is part of their culture and history. How many non-Punjabi speakers would make the connection?

But that is the implication in the tuk. It is a supreme being who takes away pain and suffering who inspires us to worship. Where to go next? Would the average Sikh selected at random on the streets of Ludhiana understand what the tuk is saying given the word "Har?" I don't know. I think many would think the tuk was endorsing Hindu mythology. If the audience is western, the translator shifts gears and uses words like "Lord" or "God." Is that the ideal? Probably not. Then there is the question, Do we want only Punjabis to know of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or do we want to share Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with the world? That about wraps it up.
 
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Ishna

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Thanks Adminji. I don't have time just now to read or reply properly but I will later. Just to quickly clarify my question, what I'm trying to say is, the Punjabi in the original paurhee contain words like 'sinners', 'kill', 'hell', etc. So my question is, how is the translation itself the problem? How is the translation describing something other than a god-character who is rewarding the believers and punishing the sinners?

I promise I'll stop asking language-related questions after this!
 

spnadmin

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Thanks Adminji. I don't have time just now to read or reply properly but I will later. Just to quickly clarify my question, what I'm trying to say is, the Punjabi in the original paurhee contain words like 'sinners', 'kill', 'hell', etc. So my question is, how is the translation itself the problem? How is the translation describing something other than a god-character who is rewarding the believers and punishing the sinners?

I promise I'll stop asking language-related questions after this!

Well don't stop asking questions because it is good to push us to think Ishna ji. They are good quesitons.

Thanks for making your question clear by pointing to specific words. I had already checked some of that out. The words you list are not translations that stay close to the Punjabi, or to the meaning in Gurbani. The translation is the problem. The translator in all fairness probably did not know what else to say. Together responders on this thread can go back and discuss the translations to "sinners", "kill", and "hell" giving their understanding.

Tuks in question: ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an. He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell.

and, ਪਾਪੀਆ ਨੋ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਰਹਣਿ ਚੁਣਿ ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰਿ ਚਾਲਿਅਨੁ ॥ Pāpī▫ā no na ḏe▫ī thir rahaṇ cẖuṇ narak gẖor cẖāli▫an. To the sinners He allows not stability. Picking them up, He consigns them to the terrible hell.
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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The trouble is our MINDSET...we take "kill..sin..sinners..hell heaven etc.." in the ABRAHAMIC CONTEXT !!.....whereas in the GURU NANAK CONTEXT..these words means something entirely DIFFERENT...

A. has a "father" who comes home drunk every night. beats up his wife and kids..swears continuously..watches hard core pron in the living room..has a dozen naked girls all over him...

B. has a "Father" who comes home laden with presents for his wife and kids..kisses them..bathes them, takes them out for dinner treats movies etc etc..plays with the family dog..etc etc..reads form the bible/koran/sggs discusses and talks with his a famaily...

C comes along and asks them BOTH meaning of "FATHER"...will the TWO A and B give the same descriptions of FATHER ??

Guru Arjun Ji..in SGGS..describes His FATHER..." MITTH BOLLRRA JI HAR Saajn mera........Mein hambhal thakee ji..Kaddeh na bolleh kaurrah... My father is my Friend..He ALWAYS so full to overflowing with soft spoken sweetness...I tried all sorts of ways and means to make him angry..BUT he NEVER spoke an angry word or gesture

Compare that to the God of the Bible...He sends Hell fire and Brimstone on Soddom and Gomorrah because of a few Gays and Lesbians..He destroys entire cities including all livestock..he demands BURNT OFFERINGS sacrifices of MEAT and BLOOD..

The CREATOR of SGGS..is not God..He is not Lord..he is not an angry god..he is NOT wt all like other gods of other books...

The "HELL" of Sikhi is SEPARATION FROM OUR BELOVED..the anguish..the pain deep inside..the sleepless nights..the sweating and restlessness...and HEAVEN is the Bliss of being in His Loving ARMS...there are NO fires or boiling cauldrons..demons torturing..and neither are there rivers of milk and honey and angels dancing and beautiful houris pandering to HUMAN DESIRES !! milk..Honey..SEX with VIRGINS..etc etc are NOT the Sikh idea of "heaven" at all...

READ THIS JOKE..and you will see the difference !!! of how different people look at things...what the POPE "thinks" is NOT at all what the "Sikh" thinks..HA HA HA...
To a SIKH..an APPLE is a Fruit for LUNCH..to a catholic its the SIGN OF ORIGINAL SIN !!!

http://www.apunkaweb.com/text/jokes/608-sikhs-vs-pope.html
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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HELL....whats the difference..?? arent all HELLs the same...No they arent...read on..

NDIAN HELL

A man dies and goes to hell. There he finds that there is a different hell for each country.

He goes to the German hell and asks, "What do they do here?" He told, "First they put you in an electric chair for An hour. Then they lay you on a bed of nails for another hour. Then The German devil comes in and beats you for the rest of the day."

The man does not like the sound of that at all, so he moves on. He checks out the USA hell as well as the Russian hell and many more.

He discovers that they are all more or less the same as the German hell.

Then he comes to the Indian hell and finds that there is a long line of people waiting to get in.

Amazed, he asks, "What do they do here?"
He told, "First they put you in an electric chair for an hour. Then they lay you on a bed of nails for another hour.

Then the Indian devil comes in and beats you for the rest of the day."

"But that is exactly the same as all the other hells - why are there so many people waiting to get in?"

"Because maintenance is so bad that

· the electric chair does not work,

· someone has stolen all the nails from the bed

· and the devil is a former Govt servant, so he comes in, signs the register and then goes to the canteen!!!!! !
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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First they put you in an electric chair for an hour. Then they lay you on a bed of nails for another hour.
Gyani Ji

How do you measure an hour in eternity ,and since they should have been cremated they won't be needing the chair or the bed !but what really puzzles me is why the Govt servant didn't bring a packed lunch (achaar prontha)
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Gyani Ji

How do you measure an hour in eternity ,and since they should have been cremated they won't be needing the chair or the bed !but what really puzzles me is why the Govt servant didn't bring a packed lunch (achaar prontha)


Good question Sp Ji..

I dont know the answers...and neither did anyone else...even Guru nanak ji sahib ...even though the authors of Veds Katebs purans think they do...

Anyway..i heard that in "Eternity" an hour or a DAY is considerably DIFFERENT form our Hours/days on earth...you see in GENESIS..god worked for 6 days..and rested for an ENTIRE seventh day....wow..he really got tired out..he he...and that a "Day" of the gods is maybe centuries or millions or even billions of man years...who knows...

So an hour in the electric chair..may very well be a billion hours of earth time..after all whats the HURRY ?? he he its eternity we are talking about..

And in case you didnt notice..in HELL its "hot...dry..desert conditions..lots of fires and boiling cauldrons etc..demons pulling out teeth (minus anasthetic for sure he he)...and demons cutting tongues..etc etc..and in Heaven its angels sitting around playing harps and flutes...ALL VERY VERY HUMAN things...and NOT "souly" at all !!! he he..perhaps this is becasue the HELL/Heaven is described so to scare the HELL out of HUMANS...and reward HUMANS..( who love honey milk and virgins)...and WHAT A SOUL fears or loves..NO ONE KNOWS/KNEW...????

So i beleive..all this is merely a human hiding behind a pillar and SHOUTING..BOOOOOOOOOOO!! to frighten those who get frightened easily....and Since a SIKH following the SGGS Gurmatt doesnt fear Death...such Hells and Heavens hold no thrill at all...sorry to disappoint the demons and the angels...i prefer the Creators abode..
 

spnadmin

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Good question Sp Ji..

So i beleive..all this is merely a human hiding behind a pillar and SHOUTING..BOOOOOOOOOOO!! to frighten those who get frightened easily....and Since a SIKH following the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmatt doesnt fear Death...such Hells and Heavens hold no thrill at all...sorry to disappoint the demons and the angels...i prefer the Creators abode..

It is a way for the enlightened few to control everyone else. Don't want any independent thinkers causing a disturbance on the rocky road through 84 lakh joon, when finally finally finally the pinacle is in sight, maybe. A few threats keep everyone's mind on the task at hand. Another question would be how does counting out all those joon fit with the concept of eternity? Why not 85 lakh? Baffling isn't it?
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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SP JI..

IMHO....THE "sIKH" THAT FEARS EVERYTHING ELSE IS NOT A SIKH...
people point at "Sikhs" bowing in Hanuman Mandirs..putting tilaks..tying rakhrrees, holy threads to ward off eveil eye....matha tkeing at graves..etc etc..but all these are NOT SIKHS at all..because a SIKH doenst do all those.. These people all just look like sikhs.or think they are sikhs.....inside they are anything BUT SIKH.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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image.jpgIn biblical times the way was through fear ,even fear has its uses. In Ardaas Sikhs even ask that they lose not their devotion, is that a fear or is it love of faith?Not much has changed since those times as were still writing on tablets!image.jpg
 
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