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Aug 28, 2010
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AJMER SINGH Ji,

If I can know that SGGS ji tells that the very first line along with SYMBOL is to be known as MOOL MANTRA then I am prepared to accept.
Otherwise my stand is clear.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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@Ambarsaria ji;That is the difference where i do not agree, i was a Nirmala sant also in my life and very well aware of Manglacharan and Mool Manatar.
I have already read this post. It states as---Mool Mantar

One needs to remember that “Mool Mantar” is separate from Gurbani “Japu or Jup”. At the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji this mool mantar is stated, just like it is also written at the beginning of each raag (musical style of poetry writing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji). Bani starts form the word 'jpu' (Jup). At the beginning of Asa di Vaar the same mool mantar is present but it is not related to “Vaar” Gurbani. At the beginning of 'jpu' (Jup) the mool mantar it is written as (mMglwcrn) happiness and auspicious statement.
I criticize it because the author describes the Mool Mantar is mentioned in the beginning of every baani like Asa di war---that is called the Manglacharan which has been applied 33 times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and hence it can not be called as a baisc creed (Mool Mantar).
Mool Manatar can be applied once only and that may be verified by any hermits, may be Hindu or Sikh Nirmalaa.
Thanks.

Definitely you are more knowledgeable than me and I learned something in this dialog.
I will watch and listen to two Dehradunians peacesign.
Sat Sri Akal.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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AJMER SINGH JI,

There is definitely reference of MOOL MANTRA in SGGS so it is to be accepted but the question is what is that MOOL MANTRA SGGS is telling about,this is to ne known.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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AJMER SINGH JI,

There is definitely reference of MOOL MANTRA in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so it is to be accepted but the question is what is that MOOL MANTRA Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is telling about,this is to ne known.

Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash S. Bagga ji can you give me the page number in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji where it is so. I will like to look and study it.

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Parkash singh ji; It is called the Mool Mantar but like other many baanis compiled in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is not given any name but the qualities of creator are defined and the devotees are stressed to recite thy true naam (of whom the qualities are already defined).
After the qualities stated, the sress is given to recite thy naam and then Baani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji begins.
Only that i want to say.
Guru fateh !!


Personal email address has been removed. We have had this discussion previously. Do not do this again!
 
Aug 28, 2010
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AMBARSARIA JI,

Sir,You may pl refer a Quote at pp 1040 of SGGS ji regarding the message on
MOOL MANTRA as

"MOOL MANTRA HARi NAAMu RASAYANu KAHu NANAK POORAA PAAEYA"

You may pl give me your views on this.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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AMBARSARIA JI,

Sir,You may pl refer a Quote at pp 1040 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji regarding the message on
MOOL MANTRA as

"MOOL MANTRA HARi NAAMu RASAYANu KAHu NANAK POORAA PAAEYA"

You may pl give me your views on this.

Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash S. Bagga ji that line is part of a complete shabad and as such cannot be taken separately.

Professor Sahib Singh has done the exposition so I can not add much to that and accept his "arth" (meaning).

It apppears that this is the only time "ਮੂਲ ਮੰਤਰ੍ੁ" words are used together in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Thanks for the information.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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AMBARSARIA Ji,

It is threetimes that the words MANTRa and MOOL have been used togetger in Gurbani
First pp156...second pp675 ...and third pp1040.

I may bring to your kind observation that the Quote at pp1940 is from RAAG MAROOand the whole shabad is quite long.There is no RAHAO tuk in the shabad.
So every para of this Shabad is a complete message initself.

There is reference of other MANTRAs like BEEJ MANTRA.......NAAMu MANTRA ....and GUR MANTRA other than the word MOOL MANTRA.in Gurbaani.
Knowing this shall reveal a lot .

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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AMBARSARIA Ji,

It is threetimes that the words MANTRa and MOOL have been used togetger in Gurbani
First pp156...second pp675 ...and third pp1040.

I may bring to your kind observation that the Quote at pp1940 is from RAAG MAROOand the whole shabad is quite long.There is no RAHAO tuk in the shabad.
So every para of this Shabad is a complete message initself.

There is reference of other MANTRAs like BEEJ MANTRA.......NAAMu MANTRA ....and GUR MANTRA other than the word MOOL MANTRA.in Gurbaani.
Knowing this shall reveal a lot .

Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash S. Bagga ji I checked all three that you kindly flagged.


pp156... reverse order from mool mantar (ਮੰਤਰ੍ ਮੂਲ)
second pp675 ... reverse order from mool mantar (ਮੰਤਰ੍ ਮੂਲ)
and third pp1040 ... (ਮੂਲ ਮੰਤਰ੍ੁ)

From my limited knowledge and study none of the uses in the "Shabad" are in the context of a "Noun" or a "Name" but an "adjective". Hence these shabads just because they have the two words cannot be called "Mool Mantar".

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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I humbly submit that there is actually no such thing as a "Mantar/Jantar/Tantar/" in Gurmatt Philosophy.
There is NO SUCH THING as...."Mool Mantar...Beej Mantar..whatever Mantar/Jantar/Tantar..............in GURBANI/GURMATT/SGGS. ALL these words are HUMAN CONSTRUCTION. GURMATT has no place for any invocations and mantars as is the NORM in Hinduism.

ON Panna 1040 Guru Ji has so CLEARLY explained that "moolmantar" is HIS NAAM. And HIS NAAM as we know is the ENTIRE GURBANI...yes the ENTIRE and COMPLETE 1429 aangs full in SGGS.

The Mantar jantar tantar "concept" was and still IS..widely practised by the Brahmins ...to "protect..empower..ward off evil eyes, black magic, engage in bodily penances like tapisayah, to gain vars form devtas, or curse enemies, to get wishes fulfilled as ability to defy "death" by whatever means - weapons, day time night time,hands of man woman or animals etc etc ( and the VILY BRahmin always has a loophole that makes the WISH GRANTER absolved from having granted his undefendable wish to defy death simply becasue whoever is BORN must inevitably DIE..os there is TRICKERY invoked...as was in Harnaksh's death..and various others as well who had been granted such death defying wishes only to be KILLED via LOOPHOLE which they OVERLOOKED..HA HA ). Even TODAY just switch on your TV or satellite channel and watch HOW the Mantars, jantars, tantars get SOLD..to ward off the evil eye..buree nazar hatao mantar..win court cases mantar, control wife/hisband mantar, get rich mantar..get a male baby mantar..etc etc etc.... IN GURU NANAK JIS PERIOD too the BRAHMIN was similarly engaged in LOOTING the unwary and innocent PUBLIC via his mantars and jantars and Tantars.

GURU NANAK JI SAHIB totally REJECTED all this Mantars-mool/beej/root/jarrh/phal/whatever !!!!....
.
GURU JI DECLARED that the ONE and ONLY "mantar" one needs is HIS NAAM....and in Gurbani its clearly explained that NAAM is to be PRACTISED....not "muttered" and THROWN into the Havan Fire to produce a Magical WISH...or BLOWN at your ENEMY to smite him down..or tied up in a tweet-amulet and hung around the neck or tied to the upper arms, or to influence the judge to rule in your favour..or to make a river of money flow into your bank balance.
His NAAM..is His GUNNS...His ATTRIBUTES...His ways....and to "Mantrise His Naam"..means to PRACTISE His gunns, His attributes..His Ways..into ONES LIFE..so that the daily Life IMPROVES for the BETTER...changes for the Better..we become calmer, mellowed, loving towards all, sans enmity, sans jealousy, sans fear of death...see HIM in ALL His CREATION...lose all sense of DUALITY and follow just HIM..EK !! become travellers on HIS PATh..follow in HIS WAYS...Mitth Bollrra Ji Har sajaan Mera....Kadeh na boleh kaurra types...always FORGIVING..all Merciful...dyawaan, kirtwaan (vehlarr sadhs and sants are NOT like Him at all becasue HE is continously at WORK in His creation..everything He Created is in Continous MOTION !!! Haath paer chaldeh..Maan usdeh naal), Waand chhakkan walleh, grishtee ghar ghaat walleh - (Dhobee de kutteh waang aidher udher bhtakan walleh mangteh nahin ).

BUT most unfortunately GURMATT....the Pristine Gurmatt of Guru nanak ji came under constant attack form the Bippar from day ONE...Udasis, Nirmalas SAFFRONISED "sikhs" came to control the House of Nanak ( while the real SIKHS were busy fighting for their survival with their heads being sold at RS 80 each...the Gurdwaras, the Gurbani etc came under control of Nirmalas and Udasis )..these saffronised sikhs under heavy influence of their bippar roots, sought to bring back form the RUBBISH BIN, Everything that Guru ji had DISCARDED as UTTER RUBBISH. these people wanted Sikhs to begin slipping back into the PIT of Brahmanwaad....begin MISUSING "Gurbani" as mantars, Jantars, tantars..to get wishes..make death defying amulets, stop evil eyes, buree nazars etc etc and thus were these mantar ideas reborn. NAAM was not to be "practised"..it was to be "muttered"...and mutterings led to NUMBERINGS....5 mutters..51 mutters..101 mutters..1001 mutters..125,000 mutters...all having various "Phalls"..fruits....baby boy..so many mutterings...riches beyond imagination..so many lakh mutterings...and then as mutterings of merely "moolmantars" werent enough VARIETY...new holy men/mahapurahs/brahmgyanis..introduced..other "mantars"..beej..root..jarrh..various TUKS..cut out from complete shbads were misinterpreted LITERALLY...to incite FEAR..etc and BEND the UNWARY to their WILL....various shbads were given out for mutterings/paaths...BUT NO PRACTISING WAS EVER EMPHASISED as that would have meant UNDERSTANDING...of Gurbani....and thus discouraged. KNOWLEDGE...is GYAAN...and our GURU JI knew this FACT...thats why He emphasised GYAAN..UNDERSTANDING..PRACTISE...but then Guru Ji came to IMPROVE our lives NOT PROFIT form US..or LOOT us...unlike the "Mahapurashs/brahmgyanis/sants/derawadees/etc etc whose only interests was their own DERA/GOLUCK/increase in their followers/sewaks !!!

Thus we had the introduction ( I call it REVERSAL into Bipparism) of WORDS instead of PRACTICAL LIVING....MoolMantars, BeejMnatrs, manglacharns etc etc where NONE EXISTED before.

2. The SGGS as originally written was in POTHI FORM. EACH RAAG had its own POTHI. Thats why EACH RAAG has the SAME INVOCATION that appears at the very beginning. When Guru Arjun Ji sahib BOUND the various raag Pothis into one BIR/JILD..the previous arrangement of Gurbani as written remained. That is WHY the EK Oangkaar up to Gurparsaad in FULL is REPEATED at the BEGINNING of every RAAG "pothi". This was Given Place of PROMINENCE.

3. Sikhs are known to fall backwards very fast. When GURU NANAK JI saw the futile small "aartee" being performed by humans..HE took DYA on US all and invited us to catch hold of his little finger while He took us UP HIGH into the SKY and SHOW us the MIGHTY AARTEE GOING ON in the UNIVERSE..SELF SUSTAINED AARTEE continously being performed....and we "accompanied" GRU JI..up the mountain...saw what He showed us..and then..slowly slipped BACK to the foot of the mountain..picked up the small thalees, placed some insignificant ghee deevahs, put in a few metal khandas and ek onagkar symbols..and began waving that TINY THAAL in GURU JIS FACE !!! ..and to add insult to injury..READ OUT LOUD HIS DESCRIPTION OF THE UNIVERSAL AARTEE being continously performed BY THE CREATOR HIMSELF ??????...Throwing Broken LIFELESS FLOWERS at SGGS while singing Patee torreh maalni..patii patti JEEO....????? Here Take this..here take this...pattee torreh maalni...!!!!japposatnamwaheguru:
 

spnadmin

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Gyani ji

I think you are referring to this in the video above
3. Sikhs are known to fall backwards very fast. When GURU NANAK JI saw the futile small "aartee" being performed by humans..HE took DYA on US all and invited us to catch hold of his little finger while He took us UP HIGH into the SKY and SHOW us the MIGHTY AARTEE GOING ON in the UNIVERSE..SELF SUSTAINED AARTEE continously being performed....and we "accompanied" GRU JI..up the mountain...saw what He showed us..and then..slowly slipped BACK to the foot of the mountain..picked up the small thalees, placed some insignificant ghee deevahs, put in a few metal khandas and ek onagkar symbols..and began waving that TINY THAAL in GURU JIS FACE !!! ..and to add insult to injury..READ OUT LOUD HIS DESCRIPTION OF THE UNIVERSAL AARTEE being continously performed BY THE CREATOR HIMSELF ??????...Throwing Broken LIFELESS FLOWERS at Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji while singing Patee torreh maalni..patii patti JEEO....????? Here Take this..here take this...pattee torreh maalni...!!!!
 

Ambarsaria

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Gyani Jarnail Singh ji I used to believe in the following per your quote below,

I humbly submit that there is actually no such thing as a "Mantar/Jantar/Tantar/" in Gurmatt
It is perhaps of recent that I became sensitive to it. Mantars remind ("shoo mantar", or translate Abracadabra) of magic if I am not mistaken and I think some babey give people "perchian" (small paper pieces folded with words on) and ask people to drink water by dunking the paper in the water for whatever the original purpose was to get magical energy/success/boy baby/, etc.

I will go back to my original beliefs (no mantars) , is there a need to refer to the following with a name or not,

ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
I personally don't care for a name as understanding is what counts, but in case it is more proper to give it one based on others wisdom.

Thank you Gyani ji for a wonderful post. I wish it had started the thread versus the original post in this thread.

spnadmin ji/Aman Singh ji, can you please push the following by Gyani Jarnail Singh ji to start of this thread if possible
(http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25273-mool-mantar-4.html#post143613).


Sat Sri Akal.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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AMBARSARIA Ji,

The combination of the words MANTRA MOOL is a NOUN by virtue of other words connected to this.Sometime later you may realise this if you really understand how the words are NOUN in certain casesas per Gurbaani grammer.

So according to your present understanding of grammer Gurbani is not telling about as to what is the MOOL MANTRA/MANTRA MOOL.
And "it is called MOOL MANTRA" should be accepted.This way any oneis free to accept
anything.Certaily this is impossible for me to accept any thing which is to be called without any evidence from SGGS .

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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AMBARSARIA Ji,

The combination of the words MANTRA MOOL is a NOUN by virtue of other words connected to this.Sometime later you may realise this if you really understand how the words are NOUN in certain casesas per Gurbaani grammer.

So according to your present understanding of grammer Gurbani is not telling about as to what is the MOOL MANTRA/MANTRA MOOL.
And "it is called MOOL MANTRA" should be accepted.This way any oneis free to accept
anything.Certaily this is impossible for me to accept any thing which is to be called without any evidence from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .

Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash S. Bagga ji I understand the line very well.

Greater than acceptance is understanding for me.

As long as one understands, acceptance goes without saying.

For me it is like "pani rirkan wali gal" (skimming water to get butter) and I don't want to say much more. I fully understand per Gyani Jarnail Singh ji's input and Professor Sahib Singh ji's Darpan translation help.

With this one done for me, I will be focusing on other topics.

Regards

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH JI ,

You have made the matter absolutely clear regarding any concept of Mantras in
Sikh Philosophy.I greatly appreciate thecontents of your post.
We should try to get an answer to our any question from within SGGS then our thinking would be nearly Gurmati

with regards

Prakash.s.Bagga
 

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