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Miracles In Sikhi

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Tejwant Singh, Jan 17, 2009.

  1. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Jun 30, 2004
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    I used to be a keen runner. I have run several half (13.1 mile) and full (26.2 mile) marathons in Brasil, where I lived for nine years. It all started one early morning, at 3 AM to be exact. I ran three times around the block out of sheer vanity with my fellow drinking buddies. I was the only one to do three laps. Most of the others stopped after one or two and started sharing their consumed Martinis and Brahmas (as in Brahmin - yes, a famous beer brand in Brasil), with the pavement. On the second day, I could only run two blocks, and on the third only one.

    This is the way it all began.

    I started running more and more miles. My first half-marathon took place after six months, on September 7, a national holiday in Brasil. My best time was 1 hr 45 min, whereas the winner finished his in 1 hr 1 min. I was the happiest man in the world that day.

    The goal in running marathons is not the speed, but reaching the finish line! In the end, all runners end up being winners.

    Two months after my first half-marathon, I ran my first full marathon in the picturesque city of Rio de Janeiro. It was a tough run due to humidity from the ocean.
    For those unfamiliar with long-distance running: the runner hits the proverbial "wall" at Mile 20. In a nutshell, it means that all energy is depleted and the last six miles become mind-over-matter; because of the accumulation of lactic acid in the legs, fatigue sets in. It was the most difficult six-mile finish I had to endure, my body hurting with each breath.

    I finished my first full marathon in 3 hrs 45 mins. A great accomplishment as far as I was concerned, having progressed from running three blocks in a drunken stupor to finishing my first marathon within a mere eight months thereafter.
    The year was 1979. I ran quite a few more of them with improved timings.

    Fast forward to 1985.

    I was vacationing in the southern part of Brasil, a beautiful place called Foz de Iguacu which has the most beautiful waterfalls in the world. I got a phone call from my older brother Harsimran Veer ji who was living in London then. He told me that Mum had had a car accident and was in critical condition. She had gone to Wajirpur Sahib gurdwara near Ferozepore, my home town, with her friends on masyah (new moon). The vehicle she was traveling in on the return trip flipped on the wet road and the gear rod hit her head.

    The world changed in a flash for me. I had left India at the age of 16 to go to London and then to Brasil and had not seen my parents for 14 years.

    I was reduced to a 30-year-old crying like a baby for his mum who was on her deathbed thousands of miles away. It was time to go back. I needed her.

    I quickly rearranged my affairs and, in a few days, headed back to my Mumland. During the preparations, I got one more call from Harsimran Veerji informing me that Papa ji had suffered a stroke and was in a coma and was in the same hospital as Mum. One more thing for my mind to grapple with.

    I reached Heathrow, London, England, on February 10, 1985 and had an inkling that Papa ji had left the world. Anjana bhabi, with whom I had had a very close relationship because she had helped raise me since I was 16, came to pick me up at the airport.

    My first few words were, "Is Papa ji still alive"? The answer came in a hug and lots of tears. He had just passed away, ten minutes before my arrival at Heathrow.

    My family has been devout Sikhs since I can remember. My dad with his good knees used to go to Amritsar during every masyah and walk with the jatha from Harmandar Sahib to Taran Taaran Sahib - a 15-mile trek during the night, barefoot. They sang shabads and visited all the gurdwaras en route all night long. In the morning, after reaching Taran Taaran and taking a dip in the sarovar, he headed home.

    He did this for twenty years for his sick mum - Mata ji - who had not moved from her bed for years. The only person who looked after her was my granddad, who was a physician and a lawyer by profession. Pita ji had given up his medical practice to fight for Punjabi Suba and to liberate the gurdwaras from the mahants. He also spent some time in jail for his activism. After that, he was her only nurse. He bathed her, cleaned her and did everything for my feisty strong-willed Mata ji.

    My mum and dad were deeply in love with each other. My dad had weak knees and depended on my mum a lot during that time. He had recited the whole paatth of the Guru Granth Sahib in five days on his own, during my mum's stay at the hospital, so that when she - "Joginder" - came home, he would do the bhog in her celebration.

    That day never arrived.

    I think he could not bear the shock of his beloved on the deathbed and being alone without her; hence the stroke. He was in a coma for three days and then passed away. It seems as if he had offered his life to Waheguru for the survival of his beloved.

    The hospital brought his body to her hospital bed so my mum could bid him her final goodbye - in her semi-comatose state.

    This happened on February 10, 1985. I arrived at my mum's bed on February 12. Seeing her after fourteen years in that state was overwhelming. Eventually, with the grace of Waheguru, she got better.

    Mum, lovingly called Ami ji by all, passed away a decade later, on April 4, 2004.
    My running kept me sane. I ran eight miles daily without fail and fifteen on Sundays. I enjoyed it and rather cultivated this solitude.

    After having lived outside India for fourteen years, I could not get used to its climate. I developed nasal ulcers during the summer and asked my mum if I could go to the U.S. The brave woman, who always thought of others rather than about herself, gave her consent and, after living in India for 16 months, I headed to the U.S. I settled in Los Angeles and then, later in 1998, moved to Las Vegas.

    My running continued. I did not run any more marathons.

    One Sunday in January 2003, I went out for my daily seven-miler and was feeling good. After three miles, all of a sudden I felt something in my chest. My heart was pounding very fast and I was short of breath. I stopped running and started walking back slowly with chest pains. Stupid me, in denial that nothing serious had taken place.
    It took me 55 minutes to get back home. My wife was at work. I did not say anything to our two children, Jaskeerat and Trimaan, and went upstairs, changed and lay down with a heating pad on my chest. The pains would not go away.

    Finally the macho in me mellowed a bit and I called my wife to come home.

    After her arrival, we decided to go to Quick Care - a place for minor aches and pains, rather than to the hospital, out of sheer stubbornness and denial of the seriousness of what was happening. I walked on my own and told them about my chest pains. They took me in immediately. They checked my pulse and it was 175/min. The doctor on call stopped everything, called others and gave me something through IV, which reduced the chest pains but the pulse failed to drop.

    He called for an ambulance. I could see the color change on his face. I was very lucid. The ambulance arrived and I left the Quick Care center while thanking everyone. They gave me more drugs through IV on the way; it still did not work, as the pulse-rate remained high. I was talking to the guys in the ambulance all the way to the hospital, still very alert and lucid.

    At the hospital; the emergency crew was waiting for us. The doctor at the ICU pumped some more medicine. Nothing changed. He told me that the last resort was to give me a shock.

    I asked him to let my wife out of the room before he did that. She left and he gave me a couple of shock-jolts; my pulse came down to 104. The doctor said it was a miracle that I had had the pulse at 175 for more than two hours and still lived. It was a V-tach, when the heart suddenly goes berserk.

    I watched the playoff football game while perched on my hospital bed and was pleased to see my Raiders win and get to the finals. They finally lost.

    The doctor installed a defibrillator in my chest - a "mini me" version of the shock-giving device that the doctor had used in the emergency room. It has given me electric kicks several times since. This is the last resort for the heart to come to its normal pace.

    This is the only one common thing I share with **** Cheney.

    This defibrillator is like my Simranah and because of this I am still here.

    When it is about to give the shock, people feel dizzy, some pass out before it happens. And when it does activate, it gives a kick of a donkey, a very painful jolt for a second or two. I have never felt the former but always felt the kick which makes one scream with pain and agony.

    It takes some time for one to recover from this.

    I had to stop running because of this but I walk seven miles daily instead.

    I was reminded by my kids the other day that the last time I had the shock was on Valentine's Day in 2008, while lying in bed and talking to my wife who was standing nearby. No, she was not screaming at me, although I am one of the few henpecked souls left in the world, a dying species.

    Some people miss a beat or two on Valentine's. For me that day, it was a shocking experience, literally, figuratively and metaphorically.

    Last Sunday, on January 11, after my seven-mile morning walk in the crisp desert winter, I was explaining the meaning of the hukam in English at the gurdwara, which I have been doing for years. And, in the middle of it, I felt the shock out of the blue. My body shook for a moment; one could see the concerned and fearful looks on the faces of the sangat.

    The amazing part was that I did not feel the proverbial donkey kick. No pain. Nothing. Nada. Zip. I kept on for a while till I was done and then helped distribute the parshad and told the concerned sangat what had taken place.

    We are all products of our environment. In Punjab, I remember when someone used to die, people used to hire professional chest-beaters to set up the mourning scenario so that others could join in. Crying for the others who came to mourn for the dead became easier because of the chest-beating drama. This influence on us Sikhs is from Hinduism and Islam because, in true Sikhi, death is a time to celebrate.

    We laugh when we watch a happy and comedic movie, we cry with the help of the melodramas offered to us by Zee TV.

    In the same way, when we are at the gurdwara, the aura of positive energy that the sadh sangat brings in is very powerful.

    Terms like miracles - and reincarnation, evil spirits, and other catch phrases - are sadly imported into the Sikh way of life and terminology from Hinduism and the Semitic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), where they are used regularly as snake-oil rub for all cures, because they are attributed to the God deity who is vengeful, evil, jealous, just and a punisher to His followers.

    The followers of this angry God accept Him and follow Him like blind sheep and are unashamed of having a blind faith. They would rather flaunt it and mock others who are not birds of the same feather.

    If Sikhi believed in miracles, then the hot plate Guru Arjan was put on and tortured to death would never have gotten hot. Or no one could have had the power to behead our ninth Guru, Guru Teg Bahadar. The walls built around the two chotei (young) Sahibzadey to bury them alive would have crumbled, brick by brick.

    If Sikhi believed in miracles, then Bhai Mani Singh would not have been cut into pieces, joint by joint, limb by limb, nor could any one have taken the scalp off Bhai Taru Singh.
    We would have no need to utter the following during Ardaas if Sikhi believed in miracles:

    Remember those who were broken on the wheel, cut up limb by limb, who gave their scalps but not their hair, and those mothers who, for the sake of Truth, sacrificed their dear children and suffered through hunger and pain at the hands of the fiends, but never gave up their faith in Ik Ong Kaar and their determination to live in Sikhi, to their last breath.

    All the above incidents are not miracles, but are miraculous indeed.

    Now the question may arise for the miracle-believing people, including some of Sikh faith, that if the above are not miracles then where did the Sikhs get their inner strength.

    It is all in the will attained through Naam. Guru Granth is full of tools that let us sharpen our will and determination and help us elevate our level of normalcy. What may have been impossible yesterday can become probable today and ought to become a piece of cake the next day.

    One can open the Guru Granth randomly on any page and find the inspiration, motivation, determination, perseverance and, last but not least, the acceptance of Hukam.

    Ik Ong Kaar - The Creative Energy which Guru Nanak calls Ajuni Saibhang in the Mool Mantar is always manifested in the sangat. Thanks to the sangat, the donkey-kick in the chest was taken off me like the proverbial monkey off one's back.

    Sikhi does not rely on or propagate miracles, but Sikhs themselves make miracles when they are seeking the ONE together, in sangat.

    Isn't this the true essence of "mil sadh sangat bhaj keval naam'?

    January 14, 2009

    Miracles in Sikhi by TEJWANT SINGH

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    #1 Tejwant Singh, Jan 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2009
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Jun 17, 2004
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    I read this article last week on sikhchic and enjoyed it thoroughly. Thank you for telling me about it. :happy:

    Let's keep creating the miracle.
  4. devinder singh

    devinder singh
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    Oct 29, 2008
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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji Ki Fateh

    I am not a expert but i know one thing as per GURU GRANTH SAHIB every thing is here in world means human( we are), animals(we see),devta (angle)(Is dehi ko devte lore), bhoot prait (aliv) keI koit jK´ ikMnr ipswc ] keI koit BUq pRyq sUkr
    imRgwc ] sB qy nyrY sBhU qy dUir ] nwnk Awip Ailpqu rihAw BrpUir ]4] keI koit pwqwl
    ky vwsI ] keI koit nrk surg invwsI ] keI koit jnmih jIvih mrih ] keI koit bhu jonI
    iPrih ](ank 276 GURU GARANTH SAHIB),9 ridhi 18 sidhi, But every thing is working with there own regulation If you disturb any other community they make attack against, Example one train leave his track & run on another train track it's mean accident , If we not kill animals they also not come to kill us or if we not disturb alivs by righi shidhi they are live there own way.

    I don't know i am right or wrong but miracles is also in world but for sikh it's not allowed to use.In gurbani one shabad (jeo jeo nama her her oochre bhagat janaa ko dehura fire), for his son god turn full temple building, we can't unbeliever because it's in GURU GRANTH SAHIB.If we want so many example we found in GURU GRANTH SAHIB. But it's not meaning sikh has allow to miracles, this is shown to people who's fully faith & believe in WAHEGURU (GOD) without any ridhi sidhi they have this much power to do anything.

    Our fifth GURU ARJAN DEV JI sit on hot plate(tavi),If Bhai Mani Singh allow to cut there body in small small Pisces All of these are not a miracle this is the power or GURBANI,FAITH IN WAHEGURU(GOD) without any doubt.

    I am sorry if I writes any wrong thing.

  5. ballym

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    May 19, 2006
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    Good one... but what about these gurudawara being used as shops and earning centers?
    I tell you that lot of sikhs( anyway now, whomsoever trims hairs is not a sikh anymore as per SGPC) are lookig at other Gurus and options to fulfil their spritual and Atmic needs ( One needs it as much as food).

    Sikh population has dwindled rapidly... as per definition in court... WHERE R WE GOING...

    Back to hindu fold... or our girls becoming Muslims...
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Devinder ji -- How could your words be wrong? Guru Arjan Dev, ALSO A MIRACLE, points to DOER OF EVERYTHING.

    ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
    dhhanaasaree mehalaa 5 ||
    Dhanaasaree, Fifth Mehl:

    1 ਜਿਨਿ ਤੁਮ ਭੇਜੇ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਏ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਆਉ ॥
    jin thum bhaejae thinehi bulaaeae sukh sehaj saethee ghar aao ||
    The One who sent you, has now recalled you; return to your home now in peace and pleasure.

    ਅਨਦ ਮੰਗਲ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਉ ਸਹਜ ਧੁਨਿ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਰਾਜੁ ਕਮਾਉ ॥੧॥
    anadh mangal gun gaao sehaj dhhun nihachal raaj kamaao ||1||
    In bliss and ecstasy, sing His Glorious Praises; by this celestial tune, you shall acquire your everlasting kingdom. ||1||

    ਤੁਮ ਘਰਿ ਆਵਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਮੀਤ ॥
    thum ghar aavahu maerae meeth ||
    Come back to your home, O my friend.

    ਤੁਮਰੇ ਦੋਖੀ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ਅਪਦਾ ਭਈ ਬਿਤੀਤ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    thumarae dhokhee har aap nivaarae apadhaa bhee bitheeth || rehaao ||
    The Lord Himself has eliminated your enemies, and your misfortunes are past. ||Pause||

    ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕੀਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਰਨੇਹਾਰੇ ਨਾਸਨ ਭਾਜਨ ਥਾਕੇ ॥
    pragatt keenae prabh karanaehaarae naasan bhaajan thhaakae ||
    God, the Creator Lord, has glorified you, and your running and rushing around has ended.

    ਘਰਿ ਮੰਗਲ ਵਾਜਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਵਾਜੇ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਖਸਮਿ ਨਿਵਾਜੇ ॥੨॥
    ghar mangal vaajehi nith vaajae apunai khasam nivaajae ||2||
    In your home, there is rejoicing; the musical instruments continually play, and your Husband Lord has exalted you. ||2||

    ਅਸਥਿਰ ਰਹਹੁ ਡੋਲਹੁ ਮਤ ਕਬਹੂ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਅਧਾਰਿ ॥
    asathhir rehahu ddolahu math kabehoo gur kai bachan adhhaar ||
    Remain firm and steady, and do not ever waver; take the Guru's Word as your Support.

    ਜੈ ਜੈ ਕਾਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਭੂ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੁਖ ਊਜਲ ਦਰਬਾਰ ॥੩॥
    jai jai kaar sagal bhoo manddal mukh oojal dharabaar ||3||
    You shall be applauded and congratulated all over the world, and your face shall be radiant in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

    ਜਿਨ ਕੇ ਜੀਅ ਤਿਨੈ ਹੀ ਫੇਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਭਇਆ ਸਹਾਈ ॥
    jin kae jeea thinai hee faerae aapae bhaeiaa sehaaee ||
    All beings belong to Him; He Himself transforms them, and He Himself becomes their help and support.

    ਅਚਰਜੁ ਕੀਆ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥੪॥੪॥੨੮॥
    acharaj keeaa karanaihaarai naanak sach vaddiaaee ||4||4||28||
    The Creator Lord has worked a wondrous
    miracle; O Nanak, His glorious greatness is true. ||4||4||28||

    Ang 678
    Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib

    When we fall prey to Babas and crazy thinking it is because we are who we are. The help and support can bring us back. And Waheguru has already forgiven.
  7. Archived_Member_19

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    (previously amarsanghera, account deactivated at t

    Jun 7, 2006
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    every day is a miracle for me
  8. singh surjeet

    singh surjeet
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    Dec 15, 2007
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    dear sir ,your contention that sikhism does not believe in miracles is not based on sikhism as for as my little knowledge is concerened.A miracle is a thing which canot be explained by an ordinary human being.Miracles are a part and parcel of universe .Life in itself is a miracle.Creation of whole universe is a miracle.The supernatural knowledge contained in guru granth sahib is in itself a miracle.AT P-292,M5 SGGS it is mentioned that God performs miracles and wonders and enjoys them .KABIR JEE AT P-870,SGGS,mentions how God saved him by a miracle from an infuriarated elephant.There are hundreds of examples of miracles in SGGS ONLY,NOT TO TALK OF JANAM SAKHIS .however , there is no doubt that sikhism doesnot believe in using miracles for petty things.
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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    Jul 4, 2004
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    Miracle in its ordinary accepted meaning..is something that goes AGAINST NATURAL LAWS.
    THIS is the type of "Miracle".....example Raising a DEAD person to LIFE. Natural LAW is that nay and ALL LIVING things will eventually DIE. So once a "Living thing" has DIED...it cannot be ALIVE... to REVERSE DEATH..is considered a "miracle". Jesus performed such "miracles" ( Although NONE of those miracles are there TODAY....Lazarus raised from DEAD really DIED again and is NOT ALIVE TODAY...Neither can any Christian WALK on Water..or turn water into wine... or FEED the Hugry MILLIONS with just FIVE FISH/FIVE LOAVES..and NO MANNA Falls from Heaven in the Deserts of Arabia to FEED the STARVING IN GAZA/Palestine etc ) It is considered COMPULSORY for a "religious leader/Prophet"... etc to be bale to Perform SUCH "miracles" in order to PROVE his Divinity.

    The SIKH GURUS...and GURBANI clearly and unequivocally REJECTS such. The SIKH GURUS REFUSED to PERFORM any such miracles....even UNDER THREAT OF DEATH ( Aurengzeb requested Guru Teg bahdur Ji to Either Perform a MIracle/or Convert to Islam..OR prepare to DIE....we all what Guru Teg bahdur Ji CHOSE.

    Compared to the "miracles"...performed and Recorded in the New Testament..as Proof of Divinity of the Prophets....The MIRACLE that was performed by the SIKH GURUS...is Neither Agaisnt the Laws of Nature...or agaisnt Universal Laws of Physics etc..this EVERLASTING MIRACLE which exits even TODAY..is the KHALSA. Jesus walked on WATER....today NO Christian cna walk on Water.... GURU Nanak Ji went to Prison to protest the Barbarity of Babbar....Hundreds of thousands of SIKHS have gone to Prison to protest oppression of the oppressed....GURU ARJUN JI sat on a Hot plate ...Guru Teg bahadur Ji offered his head to protect Religious Freedom...Hundreds of thosuands of SIKHS faced DEATH for the same reasons.... THAT IS THE MIRACLE of our GURUS....and Everlasting Miracle perfectly in TUNE with natural Laws....the Gurus gave their HEADS..and CREATED the Khalsa who Give their HEADS...that is a MIRACLE.

    The type of "FALSE MIRACLES" that were there to show Divinity of the other prophets..were also written INTO our history/janam sakhis..in a poor attempt to prove the Sikh Gurus were also prophets equal to the miracle makers..... Which is the TRUE MIRACLE ?? The one promised by the Brahmins/Mullahs to the Lodhi Sultans...WE will read mantras and holy verses....and the Mughals under Babar will become BLIND..His Cannons will Jam....and He will lose the War.... What really happened ?? GURU NANAK JI..the Eye wittness says..KOI Mughal na hoa aandha....NO Mughal was blinded...the Cannons DID NOT Jaam but rained DEATH on the Hindostanis....in the end Babar won and slaughtered the SHEEP of Hindostan and burnt the cities down.
    Then LOOK at the GENUINE MIRACLE of GURU NANAK.... In just 250 YEARS...from His Birth in 1469..His KHALSA under Hari Singh Nalwa BLOCKED THE VERY PATH THAT BABAR TOOK FOREVER. ALL INVADERS BECAME "BLIND and INCAPACITATED"...NO MORE INVADERS USED THAT PATH...a path that had been used for 1000 years to make India a SLAVE was CLOSED...THAT is a MIRACLE (Sikh/Gurmatt TYPE)

    2. Kabir was "saved" from an infuriated elephant. What do we really SEE. Go to the GATE of the Anandpur Sahib FORT.... a MILLION Soldiers of the Aurangzeb armies lie in seige....Guru Gobind Singh Ji and a few hundred Sikhs inside have been fighting for a year or more..no more food..no more water...all trees are without bark and leaves as these have been eaten..the ENEMY sends a MALE MAST ELEPHANT...further maddeend by feeding it with alcohol...covered in thickk Body armour..armed with swords tied to its trunk and tusks...What MIRACLE OCCURED HERE ?? was it the "miracle...miracle'' OR the GENUINE KHALSA GURMATT MIRACLE....
    The Genuine Miracle was the Tiny sinewy 4ft 8inches Tall BHAI BACHITTAR SINGH, with the Blessed Lance in his Right Hand...on his sturdy steed come Charging out of the gates with Guru Gobind Singh Jis Blessings ringing in his ears....in under Ten Minutes..the Mast Mad Elephant was in Full RETREAT... the Khalsa Lance launched by Bahi Bachittar Singh having pierced his Head and Armour....his Trunk having been sliced off ..flattening the hordes of Enemy soldiers in his mad flight to get away from the TINY SINGH sitting on his back. Let me also put on record here...a "SINGH" who firmly beleived in the "miracles..miracles"....* prophets divinty type)..and who was also a Baby Elephant in size due to eating too much FREE FOOD...( ** hint....many modern So called Singhs also exist today..thry too OVERFEED on FREE FOOOD provided by chelas/sangats....and they too look like "baby elephants in cholas"..and they are the chief preachers of these "miracle stories..)...well..this Singh was seated at his usual place beside Guru Gobind Singh Ji..when a spy brought the news that the next day a Mast elephant would be brought to break the Gates....the Sangat and Guru Ji laughed and said...Here is OUR ELEPHANT (Dhuni Chand)...Tomorrow He will FIGHT the enemy elphant... Dhuni Chand who was there just for the Free FOOD...thought the Guru Mad....and then a "miracle" happened... the Dhuni Chand..The Guru's "elephant" tied a ROPE to the Fort Parapet..in the Middle of the NIGHT....scampered down the ROPE...and managed to RUN AWAY...inspite of a BROKEN ANKLE !!! NOW isnt THAT A "MIRACLE" ??? It sure is...Dhuni Chand's LIFE was "spared" from a mad elephant ?? HA HA HA. NO Khalsa Ji..the REAL MIRACLE happened the Next Day..with Bhai Bachittar Singh.... the Gurus " cheetah" who defeated the Enemies 10 ft high Mast Mad Male Elephant.

    Each and Every Miracle in Sikhism is ALIVE and well....in 1469...in 1699...in 1708...and TODAY..and will be TOMORROW...UNLIKE those "miracles" which ONLY appear in Religious texts....Testaments..Bibles..and in MYTHOLOGICAL STORIES. Those CANNOT be REPEATED...simply because they NEVER happened.:happy:
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  10. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    May 25, 2005
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    I have always loved the Serenity Prayer which sums up Sikhi for me:

    God Grant me the Serenity,
    To accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    and the wisdom to know the difference!

  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Jun 17, 2004
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    By Gyani ji

    Then LOOK at the GENUINE MIRACLE of Guru Nanak.... In just 250 YEARS...from His Birth in 1469..His KHALSA under Hari Singh Nalwa BLOCKED THE VERY PATH THAT BABAR TOOK FOREVER. ALL INVADERS BECAME "BLIND and INCAPACITATED"...NO MORE INVADERS USED THAT PATH...a path that had been used for 1000 years to make India a SLAVE was CLOSED...THAT is a MIRACLE (Sikh/Gurmatt TYPE) :happy:
    Each and Every Miracle in Sikhism is ALIVE and well....in 1469...in 1699...in 1708...and TODAY..and will be TOMORROW

    Nothing speaks for itself more clearly than history --- the consequences of history as it spreads out before our eyes. We don't need to reflect because the "staying power" of the Gurus' message is very clear. This is as you say the real miracle.
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  12. soniadatta_cc

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    Jul 29, 2006
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    Hi, I got this message and am happy to participate in it. However, we can see things with a slightly different perspective.

    Our gurus did miracles when it was needed and didnot do when it was not Gods will. In the same way, Old and New testament also the Prophets and Jesus did the miracles as per the will of God.

    We all are under the command of the Most high. Our Gurus also believed that God has control over miracles and all is under him.

    Even Today, we can pray to god and expect a miracle from him if he wills. In what way does it go against our faith?

  13. JimRinX

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    Aug 14, 2008
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    I have not had time to read all of the posts on this thread yet, but I have thought long and hard about how I would reply in my own post; but then, as some of you know, and anyone else can find out by reading my previous posts and (I think) my Introducing Myself entry - I have been the personal recipient of a thing that I can only say was 'miraculous', not only because it is the rock upon which my Absolute Faith in God (by whatever name, IT gave me many, when I had the priviledge of asking; like Brahman, Ahura Mazda, Jehova, Yaweh, The Great White Spirit, and - of course - the Sikhs 'Beautiful Lord'!) is founded, but also because it took the form of a White Steak in my Hair that had not been there before I slipped into a particularly deep meditational trance - in which met God!
    Thus, I have this to say:
    God is not there to save us from our dificulties or our enemies; this is a realm in which we are to both learn - and teach one another - how to be better people, so that we will be 'ready' to 'join with' God after X Incarnations.
    The nature of Karma is really hard to understand; things are seldom is how they seem or think that they should be. This is often because struggle is an important part of developing the qualities that God needs us to develop - especially those of compasion, selflessness, and total love; and, thus, bad things must happen, or the benificence of such qualities would have no meaning.
    After all, if Guru Arjan had not been made to suffer - no matter how eveil the deed done to him was - would the Sikhi be as strong, as profoundly faithful, as you are today; do you understand that his suffering leant Guru Arjan - or, more properly, the similar suffering other lesser souls who have not achieved Guruship - a 'new, clearer window' on the benificence of Goodness?
    As I said; Karma is hard to understand - and though Lifes events often seem unfair, or even unpleasant, they always serve a purpose when you look at 'The Big Picture'!
    Besides; there IS a kind of 'retribution', in the form of 'punitive incarnations', for some souls, and even though I'm sure that Guru Arjan was not a 'bad' soul or person - those who persecuted him so were, and it was only by doing what they did to him that they themselves were able to take one of the most basic steps towards developing the aforementioned qualities; which is to see suffering - and thus compasion and love - through the eyes that only someone who has dished such suffering out, and then felt ashamed for what they did when they were judged, can see it!:yes:
    This is why Guru Arjan was, no doubt, rewarded for 'helping' them through his selfless suffering - and his stalwart example of unshakable Faith, so that they could be judged for it. Odd as it may sound, though his persecutors may have been punnished by being reincarnated into a life of horrors that were equal to any they might have dished out to Guru Arjan or anyone else in (Moghul?) India; it's also possible that they were quite advanced souls who'd actually needed to - say - have one last potent lesson, regarding the benificence of those 'Godly' qualities, driven home to them, through the evil acts that they visited upon Guru Arjan.
    As I said, Karma works in WEIRD WAYS; so maybe it had been Guru Arjan who, in his immediate previous incarnation, had been the torturer!
    That really could be!
    I can say this because I have been Blessed to have been through the process of 'dying' (though I still had 'one toe in the pool' - so to speak), being judged (Very Scarry! I writhed like a WORM, if i'd still been in my Body I'd have turned RED with Shame!), and then being reincarnated into this same body twice in this 'life'; so I know just how intricate - and counterintuitive - Karma is, because I've thus witnessed the analysis of my own deeds twice.;)
    The first time (1991) - I got the White Streak, to 'prove' to me that it'd not been a daydream or a halucination of some kind (just try getting the Vatican to believe that!).
    The second time (1994) - I got complimented, and I made a promise to SHARE what I'd learned - with YOU!:D
    I hope you don't think me immodest- as it's all true; and since you Sikhi really practice what I preach quite nicely, I thought that you'd like it if I joined SPN!
    More on this later. If lifes got you down - or things seem like there can't possibly be any kind of a 'Loving, Beautiful God' looking out for all of us; just consider my words, then take a deeper look into the nature of what's got you upset - and if you don't see the Truth, Wisdom, and Love of God in all of it now, know that you definitely will shortly after you pass into the next realm - again!:yes:
    Maybe I'll see you there!
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Jun 17, 2004
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    In raag Raamkalee, by Sants Balvand and Sata, found on Ang 938

    The question was asked: What is the miracle that is Guru Arjan Dev ji? And Gurbani through the words of the devotees Balvand and Sata responds in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

    ਪਿਯੂ ਦਾਦੇ ਜੇਵਿਹਾ ਪੋਤਾ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
    piyoo dhaadhae jaevihaa pothaa paravaan ||
    Just like the father and grandfather, the son is approved.

    ਜਿਨਿ ਬਾਸਕੁ ਨੇਤ੍ਰੈ ਘਤਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਨੇਹੀ ਤਾਣੁ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਵਿਰੋਲਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਮੇਰੁ ਮਧਾਣੁ ॥
    jin baasak naethrai ghathiaa kar naehee thaan || jin samundh viroliaa kar maer madhhaan ||
    He took the thousand-headed serpent as his churning string, and with the force of devotional love, he churned the ocean of the world with his churning stick, the Sumayr mountain.

    ਚਉਦਹ ਰਤਨ ਨਿਕਾਲਿਅਨੁ ਕੀਤੋਨੁ ਚਾਨਾਣੁ ॥
    choudheh rathan nikaalian keethon chaanaan ||
    He extracted the fourteen jewels, and brought forth the Divine Light.

    ਘੋੜਾ ਕੀਤੋ ਸਹਜ ਦਾ ਜਤੁ ਕੀਓ ਪਲਾਣੁ ॥
    ghorraa keetho sehaj dhaa jath keeou palaan ||
    He made intuition his horse, and chastity his saddle.

    ਧਣਖੁ ਚੜਾਇਓ ਸਤ ਦਾ ਜਸ ਹੰਦਾ ਬਾਣੁ ॥
    dhhanakh charraaeiou sath dhaa jas handhaa baan ||
    He placed the arrow of the Lord's Praise in the bow of Truth.

    ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੂ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਸਾ ਚੜਿਆ ਰੈ ਭਾਣੁ ॥
    kal vich dhhoo andhhaar saa charriaa rai bhaan ||
    In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, there was only pitch darkness. Then, He rose like the sun to illuminate the darkness.

    ਸਤਹੁ ਖੇਤੁ ਜਮਾਇਓ ਸਤਹੁ ਛਾਵਾਣੁ ॥
    sathahu khaeth jamaaeiou sathahu shhaavaan ||
    He farms the field of Truth, and spreads out the canopy of Truth.

    ਨਿਤ ਰਸੋਈ ਤੇਰੀਐ ਘਿਉ ਮੈਦਾ ਖਾਣੁ ॥
    nith rasoee thaereeai ghio maidhaa khaan ||
    Your kitchen always has ghee and flour to eat.

    ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾਂ ਸੁਝੀਓਸੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
    chaarae kunddaan sujheeous man mehi sabadh paravaan ||
    You understand the four corners of the universe; in your mind, the Word of the Shabad is approved and supreme.

    ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥
    aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||
    You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace.

    ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥
    aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||
    You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.

    ਝਖੜਿ ਵਾਉ ਨ ਡੋਲਈ ਪਰਬਤੁ ਮੇਰਾਣੁ ॥
    jhakharr vaao n ddolee parabath maeraan ||
    You are not pushed or shaken by the storm and the wind; you are like the Sumayr Mountain.

    ਜਾਣੈ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜੀਅ ਕੀ ਜਾਣੀ ਹੂ ਜਾਣੁ ॥
    jaanai birathhaa jeea kee jaanee hoo jaan ||
    You know the inner state of the soul; You are the Knower of knowers.

    ਕਿਆ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਚੇ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਜਾਂ ਤੂ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥
    kiaa saalaahee sachae paathisaah jaan thoo sugharr sujaan ||
    How can I praise You, O True Supreme King, when You are so wise and all-knowing?

    ਦਾਨੁ ਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਵਸੀ ਸੋ ਸਤੇ ਦਾਣੁ ॥
    dhaan j sathigur bhaavasee so sathae dhaan ||
    Those blessings granted by the Pleasure of the True Guru - please bless Satta with those gifts.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਹੰਦਾ ਛਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਉਮਤਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੁ ॥
    naanak handhaa shhathra sir oumath hairaan ||
    Seeing Nanak's canopy waving over Your head, everyone was astonished.

    ਸੋ ਟਿਕਾ ਸੋ ਬੈਹਣਾ ਸੋਈ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥
    so ttikaa so baihanaa soee dheebaan ||
    The same mark on the forehead, the same throne, and the same Royal Court.

    ਪਿਯੂ ਦਾਦੇ ਜੇਵਿਹਾ ਪੋਤ੍ਰਾ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥੬॥
    piyoo dhaadhae jaevihaa pothraa paravaan ||6||
    Just like the father and grandfather, the son is approved. ||6||

    ਧੰਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰਿਆ ਤਿਨੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
    dhhann dhhann raamadhaas gur jin siriaa thinai savaariaa ||
    Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas; He who created You, has also exalted You.

    ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਕਰਾਮਾਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੈ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥
    pooree hoee karaamaath aap sirajanehaarai dhhaariaa ||
    Perfect is Your miracle; the Creator Lord Himself has installed You on the throne.

    ਸਿਖੀ ਅਤੈ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਿਆ ॥
    sikhee athai sangathee paarabreham kar namasakaariaa ||
    The Sikhs and all the Congregation recognize You as the Supreme Lord God, and bow down to You.

    ਅਟਲੁ ਅਥਾਹੁ ਅਤੋਲੁ ਤੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
    attal athhaahu athol thoo thaeraa anth n paaraavaariaa ||
    You are unchanging, unfathomable and immeasurable; You have no end or limitation.

    ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰਿਆ ॥
    jinhee thoon saeviaa bhaao kar sae thudhh paar outhaariaa ||
    Those who serve You with love - You carry them across.

    ਲਬੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਢੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਪਰਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
    lab lobh kaam krodhh mohu maar kadtae thudhh saparavaariaa ||
    Greed, envy, sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment - You have beaten them and driven them out.

    ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਥਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪੈਸਕਾਰਿਆ ॥
    dhhann s thaeraa thhaan hai sach thaeraa paisakaariaa ||
    Blessed is Your place, and True is Your magnificent glory.

    ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤੂ ਲਹਣਾ ਤੂਹੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਤੂ ਵੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥
    naanak thoo lehanaa thoohai gur amar thoo veechaariaa ||
    You are Nanak, You are Angad, and You are Amar Daas; so do I recognize You.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਡਿਠਾ ਤਾਂ ਮਨੁ ਸਾਧਾਰਿਆ ॥੭॥
    gur ddithaa thaan man saadhhaariaa ||7||
    When I saw the Guru, then my mind was comforted and consoled. ||7||

    ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਆ ॥
    chaarae jaagae chahu jugee panchaaein aapae hoaa ||
    The four Gurus enlightened the four ages; the Lord Himself assumed the fifth form.

    ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਖਲੋਆ ॥
    aapeenhai aap saajioun aapae hee thhanmih khaloaa ||
    He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.

    ਆਪੇ ਪਟੀ ਕਲਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪਿ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰਾ ਹੋਆ ॥
    aapae pattee kalam aap aap likhanehaaraa hoaa ||
    He Himself is the paper, He Himself is the pen, and He Himself is the writer.

    ਸਭ ਉਮਤਿ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਵਣੀ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਵਾ ਨਿਰੋਆ ॥
    sabh oumath aavan jaavanee aapae hee navaa niroaa ||
    All His followers come and go; He alone is fresh and new.

    ਤਖਤਿ ਬੈਠਾ ਅਰਜਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਖਿਵੈ ਚੰਦੋਆ ॥
    thakhath baithaa arajan guroo sathigur kaa khivai chandhoaa ||
    Guru Arjun sits on the throne; the royal canopy waves over the True Guru.

    ਉਗਵਣਹੁ ਤੈ ਆਥਵਣਹੁ ਚਹੁ ਚਕੀ ਕੀਅਨੁ ਲੋਆ ॥
    ougavanahu thai aathhavanahu chahu chakee keean loaa ||
    From east to west, He illuminates the four directions.

    ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਨ ਸੇਵਿਓ ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਪਇਆ ਮੋਆ ॥
    jinhee guroo n saeviou manamukhaa paeiaa moaa ||
    Those self-willed manmukhs who do not serve the Guru die in shame.

    ਦੂਣੀ ਚਉਣੀ ਕਰਾਮਾਤਿ ਸਚੇ ਕਾ ਸਚਾ ਢੋਆ ॥
    dhoonee chounee karaamaath sachae kaa sachaa dtoaa ||
    Your miracles increase two-fold, even four-fold; this is the True Lord's true blessing.

    ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਆ ॥੮॥੧॥
    chaarae jaagae chahu jugee panchaaein aapae hoaa ||8||1||
    The four Gurus enlightened the four ages; the Lord Himself assumed the fifth form. ||8||1||

    So then sangatth ji, what is the miracle when Gurbani says, "Your miracles increase two-fold, even four-fold; this is the True Lords' true blessing...The Lord Himself assumed the fifth form?"

    The devotees are praising Guru Arjan Dev ji in the Shabad. They say: Perfect is Your miracle; the Creator Lord Himself has installed You on the throne. And they say: Seeing Nanak's canopy waving over Your head, everyone was astonished. What do the amazing phenomena below mean. Are they the miracles? What does it mean to say these things? What is the miracle within the Shabad? I do not think it is a magic show....

    • He took the thousand-headed serpent as his churning string,
    • and with the force of devotional love, he churned the ocean of the world with his churning stick, the Sumayr mountain
    • He extracted the fourteen jewels, and brought forth the Divine Light
    • He made intuition his horse, and chastity his saddle
    • He placed the arrow of the Lord's Praise in the bow of Truth
    • He rose like the sun to illuminate the darkness
    • He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar
  15. JimRinX

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    Aug 14, 2008
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    Dear: Antonia (a.k.a.: aad0002) ji
    I chose to focus on Guru Arjan because VaheguruSeekr seemed to be a bit disheartened by what had happened to him, as well as because he is one of the most interesting and admirable of the Gurus that I remember from the 'Sikhism for Dummies' book (not really the title, Ha Ha) that I read before taking the chance of insulting anyone on this site! The most interesting and admirable is, of course, Guru Nanak; as he showed that he was especially wise when he told the Imam, in Meccah, to "Please point my feet in the direction that God is not" after he fell asleep with them pointing towards the Kabah!
    To answer your question: The 'Miracle' of Guru Arjan, if you wish to dispute VaheguruSeekrs' point about Sikhi not having miracles, was his unshakable Faith!!!
    As far as the rest of your questions are concerned, I'll have to ask you to forgive my lack of knowledge of Punjabi and my fading memories of my youthful investigations of the Ghitas and Upanishads (and yes, I know, Sikhi are not Hindus - but you share many of the same cultural references), and do my best to render an opinion that will be both respectful and respectable - while clicking between SPN, Wiki, and a Punjabi Gloss.
    Like most Religous Works of Great Merit, which the Gurbani truly is one of (though you are the first 'humans' to have introduced me to it's wisdom), much of what it contains is metaphorical, not literal, as it is meant to inspire. It was also written long before our modern age, and thus it is full of cultural adn religious references that - though they still have meaning to all of us - are 'of there time'; with a good example being the 'ten-headed serpent' stiring the oceans, the Sumayr Mountain (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the central peak of the Ghitas - the one with the vessel of Ghee atop it, that the mere one-headed serpent wrapped itself around and stirred.......the Beautiful Woman {Mata?}, etc. etc.), as we all know that serpents can't stir up oceans, and that this is clearly and allegorical allusion to the 'world making/world changing' power of a truly enlightened being, like Guru Arjan.
    In short; this passage is a respectful eulogy of a Mahatma of the Highest Calibre; it contains imagery that speak of the rewards that are bestowed upon those of true faith, with the intent of inspiring (describing Wisdom as 'Jewels', for example. In other Asian Beliefs, it's Lakes of Gold with Beaches of Diamonds lined by trees with Emeralds hanging from their branches) those who are not yet 'there' spiritually; those who have only toil and are rewarded only with want.
    The promise of an eternal supply of Ghee and Flour; protection from a Guardian whose Bow is loaded by your Praise of the Lord; the allusion (note that this word starts with 'a' and does not refer to an Illusion!) of Guru Arjan rising as the Sun to cast aside the Darkness; it's all metaphorical - but apt, beautiful, and, though it should not bne taken literally, it is not in any way meant to be misleading.
    I hope this doesn't disapoint you, or make you think that I question the Greatness of the Gurus - I don't; it's just that, like the Great Buddhist Guru Rinpoche, Nanak et al had to compete with Fire-breathing Dragon Gods - who demanded your teenaged daughters sacrifice! (well, maybe not quite that bad; as it was, after all, the 1500's), or they'd smote your fields - and thus they, perhaps, used the word 'miracle' a little too liberally.
    It was, however, for a Good Cause - and thus was not Wrong; and there are People, Gurus' and otherwise, who've had The Lord create for them a Miraculous Thing so that they'd be able to gain the respect that they needed to be able to Teach others.
    Still, don't count on them to happen - The Lord works in Mysterious Ways; and Hirm has set this place up as a Classroom - with a Karma-based curriculum (see previous post for my thoughts and observations on that) - to teach us the finer details of the difference between Good and Bad; so neither you nor your People nor your State nor your Rulers nor your Gurus' should ever count on a 'miraculous bail-out' from whatever troubles you might be experiencing!
    You might just be helping some one learn to be 'Gooder' - by suffering through their being 'Badder'; which is a Loving Kind and Truly Compasionate thing to do - even if it stinks at the time!
    Just don't tell the 'vengful, vindictive God' People - who think the wporld is 'pure', and that all 'bad things' are evidence of 'sin' or the need to 'appease' said God - that I said that; they might decide that I'm endorsing evil, and that I thus need some more of it in my life - just to screw with me for refusing to accept their own foolish beliefs.:inca:
    I hope this both pleases and enlightens.:D
  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Jun 17, 2004
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    JimRinX ji

    I don't completely understand everything you are saying here. After I read and reflect another time I wil get it. Maybe some forum members will pick up on the questions. That was my intention. I was very serious about them -- the questions. Anyway...nothing smells that bad...unless there is an electrical short somewhere on the network... wire casings do smell pretty bad when they catch on fire.

    Let's return to a discussion of Gurbani. :D
  17. OP
    Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Jun 30, 2004
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    Guru Fateh.

    Pardon my ignorance but I do not know what you are talking about here. What made you think I am disheartened about Guru Arjan? I would like you to show me that in my essay and elaborate on that.

    Yes, I totally agree with you about the former but I have no idea how much you know or read about all other Gurus. It is worth mentioning that Sikhi is the only way of life that evolved in more than 200 years, that's why it is idea based, hence the idea evolved with time, unlike other faiths which are personality based and it took one life span of a person to set the rules. So, all Gurus had vital roles and with the duration of time they were able to advance the idea of Sikhi. Hinduism is more a mythology so its time span does not come into play.

    I fail to understand this giggle and mockery with the invented name of the book. I am not bewildered nor feel insulted but puzzled about what point you are trying to make. Well, as you write the above, subliminal insult does come to your mind and it shows. Again I fail to see what you really mean and what your true intentions are. Please elaborate it in an eloquent fashion if you could.

    As you have admitted yourself you have not read all the posts about this thread, one can also see you have not read the essay itself in its entirety and seems to have jumped to conclusion by reading a few lines.

    Once again you are jumping to conclusions. I repeat that I have no idea what is on your mind. If you had read the first response on the essay which was by Antonia ji, you would have gotten your answer.

    Once again, it seems you have just glossed over the whole essay rather than reading it thoroughly. I did mention we are all products of our envoirment. The 3 semitic religions would prove that with their inflluence on each other.

    I have no idea about your faith or religion but one thing you fail to realise or have not read enough in order to grasp the main point- no offense intended, which is worth mentioning again is that Sikhi is the only Way of life that is NOT personality based like the 3 semitic religions,Buddism,Jainism and Hinduism but Idea based. So no matter how many cultural references we share, the blue print is totally different.

    I agree with you partly. But you have falied to see the deeper side of Gurbani. Allow me to elaborate that a bit more.

    Gurbani is written in a poetic-musical form. And one should not ignore this part. Music is the most powerful medium to make us come out of our self created cocoons. It breaks our self constructed inner walls and liberate us from our own shackles. It makes us honest about ourselves. it makes us constantly check our inner nakedness without any shame. Yes, it is very metaphorical, which is one more beauty of Gurbani which you seem to have ignored in a non-chalant manner. Metaphors are the kaledioscopes of our lives. They eventually become the prisms with multiple angles and depending on our spiritual quest; with time we discover more angles about ourselves through Gurbani.

    I do not understand what you mean by literal. I would like you to elaborate that. For me literal in a religious sense means dogmas- subjective truths like in the 3 semitic religions which teach cans and can nots and haves and havenots, unlike Sikhi which instills wills and willnots.

    In other words Sikhi creates the blueprint of life. It teaches us to breed goodness within which is the seed of love and as you know love blossoms from the within, it can not be imposed.

    The way I see Sikhi, Mool Mantar is the blueprint and japji is the foundation and the rest of the Gurbani is the design to map our own buildings. Now it depends on our inner quest what kind of building the individual wants to erect while having the 2 basic and the vital components.

    I apologise for being repetitive but I have no idea how much of Gurbani you have read but in Japji, Guru Nanak mentions about other Milkyways and innumerous planets. Yes, it was written more than 500 years ago but we have been discovering all this recently with the help of better telescopes. It was not his prophecy because Sikhi is not about the prophecies but It shows his vision long before time.

    More about what Antonia ji mentioned about Gurbani later.


    Tejwant Singh
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  18. OP
    Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Jun 30, 2004
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    Guru Fateh.

    You talk a lot about Karam(a) in your post above.

    1. What is Karam(a) and what do you understand by it and how do you use it in your daily life?

    2. How about Dharam(a)? Hows does that fit with Karam(a) or does it and if it does, in what way?

    My questions are not to challenge you or anyone else, nor am I trying to test anyone here for anything but myself. As we are all Sikhs- students-learners- seekers, this is the best way I find to learn more about myself through others.

    Input from all would be highly appreciated.

    Tejwant Singh
  19. JimRinX

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    Aug 14, 2008
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    Dear: VaheguruSeekr and Antonia jis!
    Wow! I DO smell some wires burning - or is it my hair?
    I only have time for a very quick reply, right now; but I'll get back to you in more detail, later.
    Just so you know, VaheguruSeekr, I DIDread ALL of your wonderful thread starting post, before making my second entry; and I didn't mean to imply that you got anything out of Guru Arjans' untimely - and wickedly administered - demise, other than what you should have - and, apparently, did; the boost to your Faith that you've clearly shown me that it gave you.
    As far as the 'giggle' factor; I was only expressing my own rather daring 'fly by night' approach to taking part in the SPN Forum - as I am still a 'Dummy' about many things 'Sikh', and I was merely giving YOU a way to let me off the hook without my loosing too much face in the process.
    I accept your criticisms and questions with glee and humility; as you are the experts on Sikhism, and I'm just a person who spoke with The Lord one day, who sees a great deal of simularity in what we both believe - and, therefore, I thought that we might have something to share with each other.
    As far as Kharma and Dharma are concerned; I'll write more later - as you've raised a serious issue, and I need to study some more about Sikhism, or I'll sound like a 'Dummy' - and, possibly, offend you unnecessarily.
    Let's just say that these are terms from Belief Systems that carry conotations which I know you probably object to - like caste (which I find repulsive, too); and I've simply tried to use them - rather than a term that I suspect you might find more palatable - to express concepts, perhaps in a 'dummy' kind of way.
    Now do you see what I mean? I wasn't implying that SPN, or Sikhism, are anything but very serious matters; I was just expressing my sense of humor.
    I recommend having one of those, you know!:p
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  20. JimRinX

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    Aug 14, 2008
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    Dear: SPN Jis'
    I'm sorry that I haven't made the reply to your questions that I promised you sooner; though I guess I did offer up some of the answers to the questions VaheguruSeekr asked me in his reply; but I too, VaheguruSeekr, often have to put up with my own 'Donkey Kick'; so - even though I may decide to add more to my reply later (I had in mind a lovely multiquote reply; as I fear that I've offended you, when I'm really just seeking out those who have like-minded 'life philosophies'/religion) - I've decided to tell you another of the reasons that I'm glad that I replied to VaheguruSeekrs' thread, as I did actually read all of it, you see.
    If you've read my Introducing Myself Entry, and Profile Info; then you know that I consider(ed) myself a 'Tibetan School' (in a way) Buddhist, because I was onced blessed to have entered a state of communion with The Beautiful One, and it identified my 'taking shelter' (and leaving behind Catholicism - which is scarry, as they try to freak you out!) in 1981 as the 'right thing to have done', and the Dalai Lama as a Good Person who - basically, for the most part - taught what it told me, then.
    Though I didn't know very much about Sikhism at that time; after getting to know some of you, and reading that book, I now think that it would have nominated the Sikhi - and Nanak, et al - as Good People, who believe - basically - what I do, as well.
    In fact; Sikhism probably comes closer to an 'accurate' view of the 'way it is' than most religions; and I hope you see my saying that as a sign of my respect and good intentions - if only because I've been being Lambasted and Pilloried by Catholics, Racists, some real never-do-wells who like to kick people - even disabled ones - when there down (definitely NOT Gentlemen; like Me!), and The Federal Government of The United States for the last eight years (Ditto!); but then that's what I get for wanting to see Traitors (I'm thinking of a letter that comes after 'U' but before 'Z' in the Roman Alphabet) - who shed Innocent Blood for Profit, or any other reason - GET HUNG!
    Obviously; I'm simply to 'Moral' for them; and I also demand compassion from those who would use my Chronic Pain to 'punnish' me on behalf of what they foolishly call 'their God'.
    I put it that way, as there really is only one; and - though the other beliefs and those who believe them, have mostly strayed pretty far 'off-message' - it was the same Diety Entity that I communed with, that the Judeo-Christian Prophets, Zoroaster/Zarathustra, Mohamed, Mani, and - dare I say - Nanak, et al, did; and even though Gods message to these People was always the same, they were - often - not ready to hear it, and so they Crucified the Good Man with the 'Message', or made him sit on a Hot Plate.
    In other cases; they simply adopted the Truth to their own ends - but, if you look, you'll still see a thread here, a thread there, or the 'original fabric'.
    By the way, that Book on Sikhism that I read was: The wisdom of Sikhism / compiled by Charanjit K. Ajitsingh.
    I certainly didn't mean to detract from the Dignity of the SPN - and certainly not that of the Sikhi - with my little 'Sikhism for Dummies' joke; it's just that, if you live in America, then you've probably seen dozens of '.....for Dummies' series of 'self help' books, such as: Windows for Dummies, Plumbing for Dummies, Geology for Dummies, etc.. As I know that I've seen an actual book called 'Judaism for Dummies', you get the idea - right?
    If not, remember that Giod has a sense of humor - and so should you.
    Back on my first referenced topic:
    You probably know that I have a Neuropathy; you might also already know that I've been having trouble sent my way by Christians who think that it's "Crazy" and that it "Should be Painful" to "Leave the Catholic Church" (I just can't 'fake' believeing in their 'Vindictful, Evil' version of God, my good VaheguruSeekr ji. Could You?), and that they have harmed me by ignoring this Physical Disability and labeling me - on the Federal Level - 'Mentally Ill'.
    This is 100% a violation of my American Civil Rights, by The Federal Government; but now they know that, with Obama in Office, I'll surely win if I take them to Court, as he is not as likely to look away from - or actively enable - Honest Disabled People being forced to Dishonor themselves, just to survive being sick, or because they don't - and won't - tote the Christian Party Line.
    One of the things that was part of the fallout from these extreme tests of my Faith in The BEAUTIFUL Lord, rather than 'their' own 'Evil' version, was a near miss with Death that tested my mettle - not to mention my Immune System - mightily.
    Yeah, my Good jis', I have sat on the Hot Plate, too!:mad:
    You see, 'they' (mostly White Supremacists Anti-Semites in the K.K.K. and Catholic Church, with connections in Law Enforcement and the Federal Government) did a whole lot of evil things over the last 25 years or so - most of which I've only found about about in the last 10 years - in an effort to set me up to be 'punnished' for a number of things that they say I did, but that are - for the most part - actually just an excuse, a 'cover-up', for a 'Police Action' that led to the Murder of two Portlanders in 2003, by White Supremacists. In fact; a Los Angeles Police Officers Son, set a Black Girl (Jessica Williams) on FIRE with Lighter Fluid, in an attempt to link me with there own Criminal Activities; as I was using Cannabis as a Medicine at the time, and that was like 'Low Hanging Fruit' to these Evil People.
    You see, they like to try and get Black People - or Jews - to attack people like me for them - and then to gloat and cluck about how "stupid I was" to "like those (insert racial epithet of your choice, here) better than I like MY OWN WHITE RACE (OMG! Surely I'm a Ni**er Now!)"; and one way to make that happen, would be to murder a Black Child - in a hideous manner - and to then run around saying that I was somehow involved in making it happen.
    So therefore, VaheguruSeekr, I hope you don't mind that I have sought, and found, some good company - and a pleasant escape from thinking about these Evil Peoples Unspeakable Deeds - by visiting the SPN; as I spend most of my 'Web Time' communicating with the Authorities about these Issues, and it pains me greatly that I've gotten nowhere with it - YET.
    I hope that that alone makes you feel better about sharing your thoughts with me; as, though I've read the words of troubled souls like Saint Soldier - and then tried to help them with a little of my own 'wisdom', I've neither seen nor heard anything 'evil' yet on the SPN; and that, for me, is like taking a Big Breath of Fresh Air in these trying times.
    Of all of the 'fallout' that has landed on me: the worst was the result of my being compromised financially (I have only a small Pension, and no Dental Insurance) when I was Illegally forced out of my affordable Subsidized Apartment in June of 2003. You see, I had to put off the implimentation of my Dental Plan - which was set up to save some 'pink, healthy roots' by capping them, rather than pulling them out; and though I would have been able to afford this, without a cheap apartment......
    That's why, in late 2007, I suddenly went into Seizures - as an Infected Root had broken through my Brain Pan!
    Worse yet, because the infection had been going on for some time (the Fed owes me over $6000, so I was holding off getting the rotten roots pulled because people of Real Faith always play to 'win'), I had a Fungus growing in my Heart to boot!
    When I woke up from the Brain Surgery that removed the Cyst - which had almost destroyed my Hypocampus - I was almost completely paralyzed on the Left side of my body.
    With my faith intact - and my Ire whipped up even more than before; I set out to pray and meditate - using the Medicine Buddha mantra (I do believe in 'Demi-God'-like spiritual entities, by the way; as we'll all become one, some day - if we're good enough, long enough. Does that jibe with your views?), amongst other invocations - myself back to health.
    Though my Neuropathy causes it's own Neurological Problems for me - including Pain, Palsies, and creeping Paralysis, and I now have Seizure issues to deal with taht weren't there before; I walked into the Library today - without a cane or walker - and I'm using both of my 'already partially paralyzed before the Brain Infection' hands to type this; if you can call what my three or four 'still responsive' finger 'pecking and punching style' technique actually 'typing', that is.
    I also have my old 'Mountain-biking Chef' heart back; and though I've been rather a fool to overdo - or do too much of - many things that I've been warned by my Doctors not to, which worries me; I still feel pretty good!
    If I could Legally (or, rather, FULLY Legally) switch from the Opiate Narcotic that I'm forced to resort to using for chronic pain control, back to a certain semi-controversial Medicinal Herb (or it's lovely 'condensate') that I've quit this Pill in favor of twice since 2000; then I would really be feeling grand - and looking for a 'kind of disabled, like-minded, special Female Companion/Soul Mate' as well!
    You may have heard what Opiates do to a Mans - uhhhh - Manhood!
    That Stinks, believe you me, it does! The worst part is the knowing that, even though I've proven that 'The Good Herb' could end much of my Opiate side-effect induced suffering - by switching over TWICE (which destroys their 'theories', which state that Opiates are 'The Good ****' that those who use 'The Good Herb' are supposed to prefer to the degree that they'd lie to Doctors and cheat Social Security, just to get them), the United States Government DOESN'T CARE!
    How could I have been so foolish? My Mother taught me better - really! Trust MY Government? Ha! Expect them to respect a State Law enacted by a Direct Democratic Process? Ha! Ever since they injected Black Men with Vitamin shots that were realy Syphillus......!!!!
    Well, I'll probably add more - like better answers to VaheguruSeekrs' questions - but for now I'm going to retire from making further comment. I hope you now feel less offended by my apparent poor taste or lack of respect; you should know that the book 'The Wisdom of Sikhism' did you proud, and that I'd be proud to be Sikh - I just agreed with God that all should be (re)united, and am a little 'sketchy' about 'labels', as they have so often been on the Banners that 'Not-So-Saintly Soldiers' have marched into battle behind.
    Before you go off on that one; know that I think that Sikh - as Saint Soldiers - have been a light in some very dark times; and that God, while pacifistic, will always love you far that anyway. I too, was once a Soldier, though - and so was my Father.
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  21. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    1947-2014 (Archived)
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    Jun 17, 2004
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    Fellow forum members -- all respected, this thread has been moved from the Gurmat Vichaar section of the forum to Sikh Sikhi Sikhism. I asked earlier that the conversation be coupled with with relevant parts of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. This has not been possible; therefore the thread has been moved out of Gurmat Vichaar. Thank you :)
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