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Meeting God

Harkiran Kaur

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Jul 20, 2012
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actually the very first description of god is that there is only one, yet that does not stop the Vedic Sikh brigade from worshipping every Hindu god mentioned in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, so that argument just does not work, the more you use the word 'he' the more you consign a personalty to god, the more god becomes your personal jesus, the more people talk of the Creator as a person rather than a Creative force


That would be misinterpretation I think... because most of the first Sikhs were traditionally followed Hinduism before that, things were written in a context that they could relate to.

Also this is where you and I differ in though because where you believe God is just another word for the unconscious rules and forces in nature, I believe that that the underlying reality to the universe is actually pure consciousness and not matter. To me, creation happened with conscious INTENT.

And the usage of 'him' 'he' etc. I think WAS to distinguish God from just an automatic unconcious creative force of some kind. Creation could not have just 'happened'. Rules of nature don't write themselves. The universe could not have just popped into existence complete with rules and laws of nature by itself. At some point, everything had to be set into motion by INTENT.

The vast majority of Sikhs believe in a conscious creator...though that conscious creator is formless, beyond birth and death... so not the Christian / Jesus image of a human male form. But just pure conscious energy. And since it is plainly stated that God IS all. Then all that really exists... the 'truth' of reality is that everything is really just pure consciousness. Matter is manifest out of consciousness... even quantum physics proves that matter is really energy at a very slow rate of vibration. So what is this energy. They won't come straight out and say it, but the basic underlying reality is conscious energy. One pool... meaning we are all connected. (It IS possible to have a conscious creator without envisioning a human body or any form at all)

In fact I could take you through a little reasoning that would show you that the only thing that is 'real' about you yourself, is your being... your consciousness. (Though only you can be the one to decude this) In fact just for starters, over 99.9999% of your own body is empty space! (that's the empty space in every atom) Remove the empty space of every atom on Earth and you have some electrons and quarks left that will equal a grain of rice. (protons and neutrons break down into quarks). These subatomic particles actually pop into and out of existence at random...and act like waves more often than actual particles. (a wave requires a medium btw and 'empty space' can not be a medium. So this empty space is filled with something...an energy field of some sort) Btw Many people are still stuck on Newtonian physics that everything is only matter and nothing else...even when science has gone past this concept. So...even your brain is made up 99.9999% empty space and a few subatomic particles that pop into and out of existence at random and act like waves in some sort of medium. The majority of what we feel and see to be solid are actually due to electromagnetic forces. Mini force fields... The way we perceive our surroundings is an illusion. (And this is not quantum woo as some suggest...I only mentioned the actual proven science here, not what it is suggesting...)

Again let's look further at what's written in Japji Sahib about the nature of God...

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
Sācẖā sāhib sācẖ nā▫e bẖākẖi▫ā bẖā▫o apār.
True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.
ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥
Ākẖahi mangahi ḏehi ḏehi ḏāṯ kare ḏāṯār.
People beg and pray, "Give to us, give to us", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts.
ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥
Fer kė agai rakẖī▫ai jiṯ ḏisai ḏarbār.
So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?
[note: that's the point... it's trying to get you to realize that there is nothing you could actually offer because you possess nothing that isn't God's already]
ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
Muhou kė bolaṇ bolī▫ai jiṯ suṇ ḏẖare pi▫ār.
What words can we speak to evoke His Love?
[note: there are no words because God is all, then you are already a part of God and there is no need to evoke anything.]
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
Amriṯ velā sacẖ nā▫o vadi▫ā▫ī vīcẖār.
In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.
[note: by going within, you find the truth...inner reflection, contemplation is done by your consciousness... not by anything physical. So through inner reflection and remembrance we will find God. Another point to mention is that chanting = sound / vibration which is important as we will see further down...]
ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
Karmī āvai kapṛā naḏrī mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.
ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
Nānak evai jāṇī▫ai sabẖ āpe sacẖiār. ||4||
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||
[Note: Self explanatory] continuing on...

ਥਾਪਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਕੀਤਾ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ थापिआ न जाइ कीता न होइ ॥
Thāpi▫ā na jā▫e kīṯā na ho▫e.
He cannot be established, He cannot be created.
ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
Āpe āp niranjan so▫e.
He Himself is Immaculate and Pure.
ਜਿਨਿ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਾਨੁ ॥
Jin sevi▫ā ṯin pā▫i▫ā mān.
Those who serve Him are honored.
ਨਾਨਕ ਗਾਵੀਐ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥
Nānak gāvī▫ai guṇī niḏẖān.
O Nanak, sing of the Lord, the Treasure of Excellence.
ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥
Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o.
Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love.
ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
Ḏukẖ parhar sukẖ gẖar lai jā▫e.
Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
Gurmukẖ nāḏaʼn gurmukẖ veḏaʼn gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī.
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.
[note: 'naad' is a punjabi word meaning 'cosmic vibration'... it's refering to the base reality of existence being energy. Einstein is even quotes as stating that matter is merely energy in a slow state of vibration. Since it's referring to 'wisdom' contained in the vedas {as simply a reference}, it can't possibly be 'unconscious' or 'inanimate' energy, and infact the word 'anima' is used for soul meaning the opposite of inanimate and possesing a definite consciousness]
ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
[note: Here it saying that everything in existence IS the one God. Or re-affirming where is was stated above. It's not affirming that Vishnu and Brahma are real deities at all... it's stating that everything in creation IS God. It is suggesting that worshipping an avatar, makes no more sense than worshipping a tree... because God IS both!]
ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
Je ha▫o jāṇā ākẖā nāhī kahṇā kathan na jā▫ī.
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
[note: again, reaffirming no form... and hence no gender]
ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
Gurā ik ḏehi bujẖā▫ī.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥
Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||5||
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||
[note: again affirming that God is only One, that God is all that exists, all manifests from God and that we need to remember this truth about reality]


Perhaps it would be better to create another translation removing all references to He or Him... and replace them with simply 'God'. But then as I said before there is a reference to the 'soul bride' and the husband being God in a divine marraige. And it's not speaking of physical gender for procreation. Or a physical union. It's speaking of the male and female principle within everything in reality - attributes existing within not only our bodies and nature but also even within our own consciousness... and the marriage as the union between us and the divine.

I have been studying the deeper philosophies to Gurbani... from several sources and this is the common consensus. I see no reference to the Christian concept of God at all in Sikhi.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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That would be misinterpretation I think... because most of the first Sikhs were traditionally followed Hinduism before that, things were written in a context that they could relate to.

agreed

Also this is where you and I differ in though because where you believe God is just another word for the unconscious rules and forces in nature, I believe that that the underlying reality to the universe is actually pure consciousness and not matter. To me, creation happened with conscious INTENT.

Although my posts may intimate against this, I do happen to agree that Creation happened with conscious intent

And the usage of 'him' 'he' etc. I think WAS to distinguish God from just an automatic unconcious creative force of some kind. Creation could not have just 'happened'. Rules of nature don't write themselves. The universe could not have just popped into existence complete with rules and laws of nature by itself. At some point, everything had to be set into motion by INTENT.

In the original gurmukhi, there is no he, she or it, I think that was intentional on the part of the Gurus. The distinguishing happened in the translation, that is what I have a problem with.

The vast majority of Sikhs believe in a conscious creator...though that conscious creator is formless, beyond birth and death... so not the Christian / Jesus image of a human male form

not true, most Sikhs I speak to, when I ask them to visualise god come up with an image not far removed from an old Guru Nanak.

But just pure conscious energy. And since it is plainly stated that God IS all. Then all that really exists... the 'truth' of reality is that everything is really just pure consciousness. Matter is manifest out of consciousness... even quantum physics proves that matter is really energy at a very slow rate of vibration. So what is this energy. They won't come straight out and say it, but the basic underlying reality is conscious energy. One pool... meaning we are all connected. (It IS possible to have a conscious creator without envisioning a human body or any form at all)

I agree with you completely, I disagree that most Sikhs see Creator this way.

In fact I could take you through a little reasoning that would show you that the only thing that is 'real' about you yourself, is your being... your consciousness. (Though only you can be the one to decude this) In fact just for starters, over 99.9999% of your own body is empty space! (that's the empty space in every atom) Remove the empty space of every atom on Earth and you have some electrons and quarks left that will equal a grain of rice. (protons and neutrons break down into quarks). These subatomic particles actually pop into and out of existence at random...and act like waves more often than actual particles. (a wave requires a medium btw and 'empty space' can not be a medium. So this empty space is filled with something...an energy field of some sort) Btw Many people are still stuck on Newtonian physics that everything is only matter and nothing else...even when science has gone past this concept. So...even your brain is made up 99.9999% empty space and a few subatomic particles that pop into and out of existence at random and act like waves in some sort of medium. The majority of what we feel and see to be solid are actually due to electromagnetic forces. Mini force fields... The way we perceive our surroundings is an illusion. (And this is not quantum woo as some suggest...I only mentioned the actual proven science here, not what it is suggesting...)

Agreed

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
Sācẖā sāhib sācẖ nā▫e bẖākẖi▫ā bẖā▫o apār.
True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.
ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥
Ākẖahi mangahi ḏehi ḏehi ḏāṯ kare ḏāṯār.
People beg and pray, "Give to us, give to us", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts.
ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥
Fer kė agai rakẖī▫ai jiṯ ḏisai ḏarbār.
So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?
[note: that's the point... it's trying to get you to realize that there is nothing you could actually offer because you possess nothing that isn't God's already]
ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
Muhou kė bolaṇ bolī▫ai jiṯ suṇ ḏẖare pi▫ār.
What words can we speak to evoke His Love?
[note: there are no words because God is all, then you are already a part of God and there is no need to evoke anything.]
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
Amriṯ velā sacẖ nā▫o vadi▫ā▫ī vīcẖār.
In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.
[note: by going within, you find the truth...inner reflection, contemplation is done by your consciousness... not by anything physical. So through inner reflection and remembrance we will find God. Another point to mention is that chanting = sound / vibration which is important as we will see further down...]
ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
Karmī āvai kapṛā naḏrī mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.
ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
Nānak evai jāṇī▫ai sabẖ āpe sacẖiār. ||4||
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||
[Note: Self explanatory] continuing on...

ਥਾਪਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਕੀਤਾ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ थापिआ न जाइ कीता न होइ ॥
Thāpi▫ā na jā▫e kīṯā na ho▫e.
He cannot be established, He cannot be created.
ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
Āpe āp niranjan so▫e.
He Himself is Immaculate and Pure.
ਜਿਨਿ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਾਨੁ ॥
Jin sevi▫ā ṯin pā▫i▫ā mān.
Those who serve Him are honored.
ਨਾਨਕ ਗਾਵੀਐ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥
Nānak gāvī▫ai guṇī niḏẖān.
O Nanak, sing of the Lord, the Treasure of Excellence.
ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥
Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o.
Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love.
ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
Ḏukẖ parhar sukẖ gẖar lai jā▫e.
Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
Gurmukẖ nāḏaʼn gurmukẖ veḏaʼn gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī.
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.
[note: 'naad' is a punjabi word meaning 'cosmic vibration'... it's refering to the base reality of existence being energy. Einstein is even quotes as stating that matter is merely energy in a slow state of vibration. Since it's referring to 'wisdom' contained in the vedas {as simply a reference}, it can't possibly be 'unconscious' or 'inanimate' energy, and infact the word 'anima' is used for soul meaning the opposite of inanimate and possesing a definite consciousness]
ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
[note: Here it saying that everything in existence IS the one God. Or re-affirming where is was stated above. It's not affirming that Vishnu and Brahma are real deities at all... it's stating that everything in creation IS God. It is suggesting that worshipping an avatar, makes no more sense than worshipping a tree... because God IS both!]
ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
Je ha▫o jāṇā ākẖā nāhī kahṇā kathan na jā▫ī.
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
[note: again, reaffirming no form... and hence no gender]
ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
Gurā ik ḏehi bujẖā▫ī.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥
Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||5||
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||
[note: again affirming that God is only One, that God is all that exists, all manifests from God and that we need to remember this truth about reality]

Although I agree with your translation, my point is simple, far too many Sikhs are tempted to see it very differently

I have been studying the deeper philosophies to Gurbani... from several sources and this is the common consensus. I see no reference to the Christian concept of God at all in Sikhi.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

you appear to have studied well, much respect for that, perhaps that is why you cannot see it, however, it is there, it can be see, and a million Sikhs would disagree with you

although not me..
 

Harkiran Kaur

Leader

Writer
SPNer
Jul 20, 2012
1,393
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In the original gurmukhi, there is no he, she or it, I think that was intentional on the part of the Gurus. The distinguishing happened in the translation, that is what I have a problem with.

That's my point though... in Gurmukhi, it is not as odd as it may seem to those of us who speak English, to not use a 'gender' when referring to God. It's because 'it' sounds so impersonal, to call God 'it' would sound like we are comparing the Creator with a rock as far as intelligence/consciousness. It was only required when translating into English because of that reason. They could not use 'God' as every few words in sentences or it just sounded odd... repetitive.

As for your beliefs... I am actually surprised because I remember posts where your thoughts came out seemingly in great opposition to the 'conscious creator' idea when I tried to explain before...

Although I do know a few Sikhs in person who use 'he' or 'him' a lot... they still don't picture a male human form, or any form at all... They know God is formless... but I am surprised to hear that you know so many who would assign God a 'form' since the very first few lines of SGGS plainly say the opposite. And the first part up to 'Jap' was spoken by God 'Godself' (does that work better than himself?? lol) to Guru Nanak. Those people are misled when assigning a form to the creator.
 
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