Christianity Many Christians Believe That Jesus Is God. What Does Sikhism Say About It?

[harsimiritkaur]

Jatinder Ji, sorry for the confusion, I'll make a more careful attempt to double check before I start posting replys. Take care and God bless you always. waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fatey

Dear Harsimrat kaur ji


I never said that infact i said the opposite may be you are confuding me ( Jatinder Singh ) with Jass

 

[harsimiritkaur]

When we all finish arguing a certain controversial topic, even if we confince each other, we will not have even begun to study the fundamentals of any topic. The more we learn, the more there is to learn. And then we begin to realize that perhaps we are looking at the thing in a limited way. There are many angles to look at an object. Every angle is infinitely next to each other. Where does the image change from one angle next to the other. We can't even stop squeezing angles in between each other because of infinity. Likewise, even if we view angles only slighly apart, we will still see the object almost exactly the same way. When does our view of the object change. Our eye cannot detect the minute view changes, unless you expand the spectrum to view the object much further or closer from the object or the eye. If you look at each window on an old strip of film, the objects change too slowly for us to notice, but when you speed up the strip, then you can actually see movement.
God fills everything, and everything is filled inside of God, who houses all of the universe, all of the agasan agaa, patalan patal. Jesus is also a part of the universe. I can understanding how people identify Jesus as God, but if he is, then people do not understand how he can be God, and if he is not, then we are misunderstanding his own quotes.
I don't think believing he is God or not really matters according to New Testament, which says that Satan believes [in the existence of Jesus and his role].with fear and trembling. Just like some Sikhs claim to believe in Guru Granth Sahib. They don't study, they become rich and want to be a committee member of the gurdwara for showing off or for the golak money, or for selling USA sponsorship letters to India, and having sword fights in the gurdwara. Well, some Christians believe Bible, read Bible, believe Jesus, but they do not live it. "Be ye doers of the Word." If people are not doers of Bible or Guru Granth Sahib, as they claim to be, then they never truly understood the message of God's grace and royal hukam.

If people want to call Jesus God, that does not mean they don't know philosophy. I don't call him God, but we all need to explore the meaning of God in relation to creation. He can exist without His creation, but His creation depends on Him to exist. Well, the power of hukam causes everything to recycle, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall remain forever." What is "my word," I don't thing it means a bunch of syllables. It means the gian of reality that all true devotees of God teach to mankind.

 

[Jass Singh]

Harsimiritkaur

Even Satan will quote scripture to suit his goals by twisting it, e.g. when he tempted Jesus at the beginning of His ministry. Your quote:

Satan believes [in the existence of Jesus and his role].with fear and trembling.

Is in correct the verse reads: “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder” (JAM 2:19 NASB).
The context & subject of this verse is belief/faith. The demons have a perfect theology of God and know the truth about ultimate reality. They give intellectual assent (i.e. agree with) to the truth about God and shudder because they also know their ultimate fate.

You write:

If people are not doers of Bible or Guru Granth Sahib, as they claim to be, then they never truly understood the message of God's grace and royal hukam.

Sure we have pakhandi Sikhs as well as pakhandi Christians. That is why GND Guru Nanak Dev said
“sachahu orai sabh ko upar sach aachaar.
Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living (SGGS Page 62 M1).
In other words walk the walk as a characteristic lifestyle & not merely talk the talk of intellectual assent to the truth. But when you say:

If people are not doers of Bible or Guru Granth Sahib, as they claim to be, then they never truly understood the message of God's grace and royal hukam

your conclusion is incorrect for knowledge or intellectual assent divorced from a lifestyle characterized by obedience to the SGGS or the Bible does not necessarily mean that you never truly understood the message of God's grace and royal hukam. It simply does not follow and is a non-sequiter. You have left the will out of the equation. One might well understand the message of God's grace and royal Hukam but be simply unwilling to obey.


What exactly do you mean by:

the power of hukam causes everything to recycle?

You also say:

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall remain forever." What is "my word," I don't thing it means a bunch of syllables. It means the gian of reality that all true devotees of God teach to mankind.

You have incorrectly quoted Jesus. This is what I mean about the necessity of precision in articulating an argument. Jesus actually said: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away” (MAT 24:35 NASB). He did not say my “word” but my “words” plural and it means exactly that Jesus’ words not what you incorrectly read into it as:

the gian of reality that all true devotees of God teach to mankind.

This is another example of your incorrect hermeneutics – the misinterpretation and twisting the truth of scripture to fit your syncretistic agenda.

You write:

God fills everything and everything is filled inside of God, who houses all of the universe.

God is spirit and is transcendent. He is not the physical universe itself. Modern science says that at the moment of creation, 4 of the 11 dimensions curled up in a singularity uncurled. These are the time-space continuum in which we live. The creator exists in at least 11 dimensions and He is beyond or transcends the space-time continuum. He is not the creation! He is not locked into the cage of His created physical time-space universe.

Regarding Jesus being God, you wrote:

but if he is, then people do not understand how he can be God

So what is your point? There are a lot of things that we do not understand but that does not mean they are untrue. There are mysteries that our finite minds will never understand. "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law (DEU 29:29 NASB). The real question is are our beliefs warranted beliefs?

You also wrote:

I don't think believing he is God or not really matters according to New Testament

Wow! And how do you know that? This is another example of an unjustified and unwarranted assertion. Why do you think it is an irrevocable and` non negotiable core belief of Christianity?

 

[devinesanative]

If it be believe "Jesus Himself Said He is God" then ,

What will happen to the Christians ?

What will happen to the Non-Christians ?

If it be believe "People said Jesus Himself Said He is God" then ,

What will happen to the Christians ?

What will happen to the Non-Christians ?

 

[devinesanative]

Whether Jesus is a God or People called Him a God ?

Its seems that somewhere we are failing to take into consideration the situation , environment and human psychology and mental awareness of 2000 years back , ie the era of Jesus.

Equipped with the today’s modern Rationality , Intellectuality and Spirituality and scientific temperament we are failing to perceive and conceive the time period of that era .

If we want to analyse and understand whether Jesus is God or People called him God , we have to travel back in time and put ourselves in the era of Jesus.

There was Jesus even Before Jesus visited this planet earth , there was Ram even before ramayan occurred , there was mohammad even before islam came into exsistence , there was Nanak even before Guru Nanak Visited this earth.

Let us try to view this situation on time line , about the prophets , messenger or Gurus , before and after their existence.

As it is common in a family that whenever a new child is born , every parent wishes to name his / her child’s name after some great or successful man or even by the name of God .

Let us take an example of Hindus ,

The Hindus used to worship and Chant Ram , Ram even before Ram visited this earth planet . It means that the people of that time used the word Ram for the one and only one Formless God , to which muslims call ALLAH and SIKHs Call Akal or waheguru.

s-------------------------------------RAM------------------------------------2005
T0------------------------------------tn-----------------------------------------tm

Between the time period t0 and tn people used to chant RAM , RAM …

But between the time period tn and tm people forgot about the formless God and started worshipping the Ram of Ramayan or Ram of Sita .

It means the Word RAM existed even before Ram in human Form.

Similarly , with a time line it can be analysed about the other religions .

Now coming to Jesus , again coming to the time line .

s-----------------------------------Jesus----------------------------------2005
t0------------------------------------tn-------------------------------------tm
Between the time period t0 and tn people used the Word Jesus to represent God

But between the time period tn and tm people forgot about the formless God and started worshipping the Jesus of Virgin Marry

Did the Word Existed before Jesus Christ ?
If yes then what did it meant at that time ?

Since , the dawn of the human civilization and its evolution ,as time passed and the brain of the human beings got developed , the humans beings were able to formulate the attributes , characteristics of God . Though they were not able to list all the attributes but the average attributes .

And, as time passed , some great men and women visited planet earth and by virtue of their rationality , intellectuality , spirituality and scientific temperament they acquired the attributes of God , though not all the Attributes but few or some of the attributes.

And from to time whenever such type of people have exhibited the attributes of near resemblance to God , People believed them to be God.

To carry on the study further , what the humans now need is the separation of the Hardware part and software part , the tangible part and intangible part.

 

[devinesanative]

If people around the world would have really believed in the Hukum of God , then there wouldn't have been Religious Addiction and Fanaticism , Religious Inhibition , Cleverness , Oversmartness , Insecurity , Lack of faith and belief to name a few....

 

[Jass Singh]

Devinsanative

You ask a very good question & for once articulate it in a reasonable manner. It is of utmost importance to know whether Jesus in fact claimed to be God or whether people made it up. To answer this question you correctly point out that the historical & cultural` context of that era must be taken into account. Unfortunately, the bulk of the rest of your post is a circular argument and not valid for you assume the premise in your conclusion, namely that people erroneously thrusted deity on Jesus.

You correctly stated that:

If we want to analyse and understand whether Jesus is God or People called him God , we have to travel back in time and put ourselves in the era of Jesus.

Unfortunately we have no time machine and cannot travel back in time. Therefore one has to evaluate the truthfulness of the deity of Jesus like any other historical event in some other manner but you did not given any criteria for it. Historians have criteria for evaluating historicity which are used as benchmarks for evaluating the historicity of historical events. Just making grandiose & capricious assertions & assumptions is not the way to evaluate the deity of Jesus. I will go into the criteria in another post and then we can have a meaningful discussion.

 

[devinesanative]

Nothing has been ever best than the brain of the human being as a time machine.

The brain of human beings can travel back and forth in both time and space.

And Also humans have technology , with simulations and emulations anything can be done .

We can even carefully study the todays' commercial prophets,messengers and Gurus and people following them.

And as far as my circular,grandiose and capricious answers are concerned, Its not a new thing.

Till centuries since the dawn of the civilization everyone has done it, eveyone is doing and everyone will do it.

I wonder if Wright Brothers could have been like you then today we wouldn't have Aeroplanes.

 

[Jass Singh]

Devinesanative

I had high hopes that you had changed your convoluted muddle headed irrational ways and was willing to dialogue in a logically coherent and meaningful manner. But once more you resort to meaningless illogical disconnected sporadic pithy statements & fallacious argumentation. In my posts I have tried to point you in the right direction by showing the flaws in your reasoning. My replies are not to be misconstrued as attacks on you personally.

Instead of giving me criteria for historicity you babble on about the human brain being a time machine. We are not talking about illusionary subjective imagination, which cannot be publicly verified or falsified but objective historical events. And in case you are still mistaken, no technology has yet invented a time machine if that is even possible. Your point about the Wright brothers is an example of fallacious reasoning – another non-sequiter. They had a theory and put it to the test using the scientific method. It conformed to reality & they flew. They had no pie in the sky illusionary dream like your irrational reasoning that does not conform to reality.

It looks like I will definitely have to start a new post on historicity for it is obvious that you are not a historian.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Hallelujah Brother Jass Singh Ji,

Das salutes the holy ghost who is in your heart and when it reaches the mind you will speak truth and only truth.

Regarding time machine it is possbile that if we have something faster or equal to the speed of light(which we have so far not made) we can have time in negitve and that means we can go to past.

das thinks that lord Jesus who came to Saul to make him Paul and similar many such instance till this day come to help the devote christian it is possible that lord Jesus sahib could be coming either from Past or from future where he wil site on the right of his father.

for person wjho says that there is no difffernace between him and his father and all his works are of his father it possible to get the attribute of father of omnipotance which made lazarus to come back to life.

This could be another fact that Jesus can trevel in time and not only in space.

This may means that Jesus was there a wordbefore creation.

Das can at last tell you that at present if you do not have time machine then that does not measn that your saints were not having the same which got unto them on the day of penticost.

John the baptist told about Lord Jesus that he will do the real baptism of Holy Ghost.and without it no one can say the truth.And Truth is independant of time.If something changes with time then it is not truth but false.

Father,Son and Holy Ghost are not False.

We have them unto one God wants as Jesus told his father that only those people he took which you(Father ) Gave.

glory to the lord.Amen.

(note as person from Technical background Das(vijaydeep Singh) is trying to prove that Holy Bible is not incorrect even by modern scince but rather confirms it. In Guru Granth Sahib Ji it is cleraly writtan that Vedas,Bible and Kuran are not false but those people who does not think over them are false.Anjeel or new testment is mentioned in Hiqayats of Dasham Granth Ji.Bhai Gurdas talks of Jews and Chrsitians in obejective terms ie nature based upon thier deeds.).Akal Bless.

Jehova is eternal so we call the same Akal in our language.

 

[ISDhillon]

There are several truths here and I will state them as I understand them:

1) The christian bible is NOT the word of god it is the product of mind it lacks any spiritual substance whatsoever as it was written by those who operate in dualism. :u):

2) Jesus christ went from the "metaphorical son of god" to "metaphysical god the son" this is a product of pathetic preachers who have evolved the scripture to appease their own feable minds. :down:

3) Jass Singh Ji is a christian apologetic whose faith is divided, he tries to salvage a sense of self worth through his vociferous internet discussion forum tactics which may I mention I have put an end to on more than one occasion.

4) The "gurshabad" is god, to understand this requires the seeker to necessisitate a paradigm shift Jass Singh along with many other members of differing faiths are unwilling to make this shift when discussiing sikhism they are therefore nothing but a mouth which barks without a brain. :}

Gurfateh!!!

Inderjit Singh Dhillon :{;o:

 

[devinesanative]

There are several truths here and I will state them as I understand them:

1) The christian bible is NOT the word of god it is the product of mind it lacks any spiritual substance whatsoever as it was written by those who operate in dualism. :u):

2) Jesus christ went from the "metaphorical son of god" to "metaphysical god the son" this is a product of pathetic preachers who have evolved the scripture to appease their own feable minds. :down:

3) Jass Singh Ji is a christian apologetic whose faith is divided, he tries to salvage a sense of self worth through his vociferous internet discussion forum tactics which may I mention I have put an end to on more than one occasion.

4) The "gurshabad" is god, to understand this requires the seeker to necessisitate a paradigm shift Jass Singh along with many other members of differing faiths are unwilling to make this shift when discussiing sikhism they are therefore nothing but a mouth which barks without a brain. :}

Gurfateh!!!

Inderjit Singh Dhillon :{;o:

A Big clap for you , Wonder Full , Bravo , Excellent .......

Some mouths Bark without brains , Just to give company , Coz even barking needs some brain ..........:u):

 

[Jass Singh]

Sardar Inderjit Singh Dhillonji

The fact of the matter is that your whole reply lacks any substance whatsoever for it is nothing but a litany of ad hominem attacks (fallacious argumentation) which do not substantiate your position. In addition you display your infantile mentality by the icons that you add as though they substantiate your position (I wonder who is trying to salvage a sense of self worth??). And you end with a very rude arrogant & demeaning remark (another ad hominem attack) which might end up labeling you instead as we proceed with the discussion - those who live in greenhouses should beware of throwing stones. And BTW you have never refuted any arguments that I have made. In the first place you have not mastered the rules of logical argumentation otherwise you would realize the utter inadequacy of your responses.

You write:

1) The christian bible is NOT the word of god it is the product of mind it lacks any spiritual substance whatsoever as it was written by those who operate in dualism.

And how do you know all this? Where are your well reasoned & valid arguments in support of this baseless assertion? You might just as well assert that the moon is made of cheese.

You also wrote:

2) Jesus christ went from the "metaphorical son of god" to "metaphysical god the son" this is a product of pathetic preachers who have evolved the scripture to appease their own feable minds.

Once again I ask how do you know all this? Where are you getting this information? Which eyewitness authentic documents are you using? Where are your well reasoned & valid arguments in support of this baseless assertion?

Although you think you have great intellectual prowess, your entire response in terms of logical argumentation amounts to a grand zero. I look forward to a more substantial and worthy response.

Jass Singh

 

[devinesanative]

Oh my God , some one has again , yelled the sleeping Lion .

Now the Lion has ROARED !!!!

 

[ISDhillon]

Jass Singh Ji,:}{}{}:

In the spirit of seva and selfless service I took it upon myself to put you in your rightful place and I feel assured that I have accomplished just that, the very fact that you use the words logic and reason are spiritually fallacious and will not bring you any closer to self-realisation. In your last post you have gone into a series of denials about the truth of christianity that I unfolded to yourself and have not provided any evidence to suggest my assertions were incorrect, the bible was not written by jesus and therefore must be rejected as a book of personal opinion, now tell me why must I provide evidence to prove personal opinion to be wrong, those who live their lives by personal opinions are no less than idol worshippers, because an idol too was created with the personal devotion of an onlooker the bible is therefore a readable idol.

With regards to your spurious lies about the nature of my ability to engage in effective debate, just do a search on that great little sikh website I used to be a part of and see the praise that is received when one imparts such great knowledge.

With humility,

Inderjit Singh Dhillon :whisling:

 

[Archived_member2]

Satsriakal to all and Jass Singh Ji!

What convinced you that the translations of The bible, you have provided, are correct?

Please provide these information. I will be grateful.
After Jesus was crucified, how many years later the first Gospels were written? And if people, who translated The bible, understood those languages in their original forms.

In which year the first translation in English was authenticated?

Why the previous translations were rejected?


Balbir Singh

 

[vktarneja]

Great explanation. One can live always connected with God and reveal the knowledge of God as most of the Prophets and Gurus did. In that sense, there is no difference between Guru (the Enlightened one manifesting in human body), God and the knowledge of the Truth. The Enlightened one sees everything in him and himself in evrything and that is why he lives and spreads the language of natural love. And, I think that is what all the 'Pir Pagembers,' the Prophets and Satgurus ('Puran' gurus have been preaching for the time immemorial. Christ was like any other Prophet in his time. Moreover, why get into the debate of words, when we can see the same basic message of Truth and Love being revealed by all the Prophets from time to time.

Please correct me if I am wrong as I am also a curious and open-minded learner.

Das VK

 

[Jass Singh]

[
Inderjitji

Maybe you can convert your high fluting unintelligible lingo into an understandable argument. You write:

I took it upon myself to put you in your rightful place and I feel assured that I have accomplished just that

My dear misguided friend what exactly is that rightful place and how do you know you have accomplished it? What arrogance disguised as selfless sewa and then you have the audacity to say that you write with humility! You are so humble that you have to blow your own trumpet and tell everyone.

Then you follow up with another unintelligible statement:

the very fact that you use the words logic and reason are spiritually fallacious and will not bring you any closer to self-realisation.

Maybe you can translate this into an intelligible comment. As it is it is not even grammatically intelligible let alone logically. But of course you don’t use logic or reason – you are far too “spiritual” for that. But pray tell me why you use reason/logic when you assert:

the bible was not written by jesus and therefore must be rejected as a book of personal opinion

BTW I never said that the Holy Bible was a book of personal opinions. It is the Word of the Living God! In addition, since your language is very imprecise and vague it is hard to ascertain exactly what you are trying to assert. Are you trying to say that since Jesus did not write the New Testament then it cannot be reliable? If that is the case you need to start a new thread on the historicity of the New Testament.

I will not waste time with the rest of your post which is equally unintelligible due to extremely imprecise and ungrammatical constructions.

Jass Singh

 

[Jass Singh]

Balbirji

Thank you for your extremely clear and very intelligent questions. I will be very glad to answer them but it does appear that the focus of the discussion has changed to the new topic of, the Bible & its reliability. Would you therefore be kind enough to start a new thread so that I can address the new topic without confusing it with the topic of this thread?

Jass Singh

 

[Jass Singh]

Vktarneja

It is far too simplistic to say that all the founders of the various world religions all preached the same basic message of Truth and Love. In fact the opposite is true. The Hindu, Islamic, Buddhist, Christian, Sikh & Jewish worldviews are quite different and cannot all be true at the same time & in the same sense. Christ was quite different to any other founder of a world religion. He was very humble in his actions & deeds yet enigmatically He never deviated from His claim to deity. You can read my earlier posts on this thread for more information.

Jass Singh