Johnnie Walker: Friend Or Foe?

[Sinister]

Johnnie Walker and Jack Daniels: Friends or Foes?​

Kabeer Bhaang Maachhulee Sura Paan Jo Jo praanee Khaanhe. Teerath Barat Nem Keeye Te Sabhai Rasaatal Jaanhe. 233. SGGS pg.1377.

To the displeasure of many, I will try to be fare and balanced on this subject and try to address the widely held drinking taboo within Sikhism (to the best of my understanding).

Is drinking allowed and if so why not?
I have asked this question before to many people and these are the responses I usually get:
1) “Alcohol is ‘bad’ tasting and people only do it to ‘fit-in’”
2) “it alters your ‘god given’ state of mind and impairs judgment.”
3) “It makes us unnatural”
4) “The side-effects of drinking are not good”
5) “It is addictive and creates dependency”

The rebuttals followed soon after
1)Seems tasty to me. I enjoy the taste of a good dry beer, good whine, and other drinks with spirits in them just like you would enjoy a soda.
2)Depends on how much you consume.
3)Please define the ‘natural state’ of man
4)Again depends on how much you drink (whines and beers actually have anti-oxidant properties and are healthy beverages if consumed responsibly)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N7vgCzTPc0 (I could present more research articles if need be)
5)Certainly not in everyone and why should it be discriminated against other things that we cannot do without (chocolate and sugary treats, spices in our food, stimulants like tea and coffee, high caffeine drinks, internet…lol)

I have always imagined and thought to myself: What if science could produce a substance that was effective in achieving an altered state of behavioral patterns within an individual without serious side-effects (no addiction, and no health hazards)? Would this be tolerable within the Sikh framework?

Where would such a substance leave us?
Does the philosophy and manufactured taboo frown upon
1)The physical process of actually taking the substance?
2)A specific state of mind that led you to resort to taking that substance?
3)The effects of the substance on consciouness and awareness?
4)The side-effects of the substance?
5)Or all of the above



In conclusion,
I don’t see anything inherently wrong in drinking responsibly…AND THAT IS THE KEYWORD…RESPONSIBLE. When consumed in moderation the benefits seem to outweigh the costs. Now this is only true if you enjoy drinking…there is a large population both religious and irreligious that do not like taste of alcohol. Have a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYuIYNaKynI
These monkeys on the Caribbean island of St Kitts are very similar to humans…again some of them prefer alcohol while others prefer non-alcoholic drinks.

We also have to take alcohol in stride with other substances as well. How many times have we popped an Advil or Tylenol (acetyl-para-aminophenol) to quell a migraine, fever, flu or allergies? Or when we take opiate derivative pain-killers.

Some actually take substances such as THC (Delta-9-Tetrahydrocannabinol) for spiritual experiences:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdokVFdLTy0
a video of Nihangs mixing cannabis.



Where do we do draw this vague line between good and evil or the sacred and the profane? Or should we think on the basis of individual taste? on a level which is BEYOND good and evil.

 

[Sikh80]

Sinister ji,
I am not to answer your question directly or indirectly but would like to add that Hindus do use Bhaang in milk on the various occassions linked with Lord Shiva. It is perfectly accepted in them.One can consume as much as one's capacity.It alters the stste of mind,yes, but for a short period. Hence it is not used frequently.There may be some who may be using it regularly.
Likewise alcohol alters the state of mind for a small period of time. The 'High' that one feels is also for hours and to attain that high one has to recoup and it may lead to addiction. Plus alcohol,I am told is a depressant.
cheers!

 

[Sinister]

Sinister ji,
I am not to answer your question directly or indirectly but would like to add that Hindus do use Bhaang in milk on the various occassions linked with Lord Shiva. It is perfectly accepted in them.One can consume as much as one's capacity.It alters the stste of mind,yes, but for a short period. Hence it is not used frequently.There may be some who may be using it regularly.
Likewise alcohol alters the state of mind for a small period of time. The 'High' that one feels is also for hours and to attain that high one has to recoup and it may lead to addiction. Plus alcohol,I am told is a depressant.
cheers!

Hello,

yes, you are right, ethanol is a depressant in that it slows down synaptic activity in your central nervous system and also your heartbeat. If you drink alot, you start to depress the cerebellum (which is responsible for initiating and stopping coordination movements on time).

so when you start feeling like this , it's usually time to stop.

I usually find that if a person drinks "only for the high" they usually end up an addict....because they are looking to become an addict to distance themselves from something.


that goes back to my questions
so does the taboo frown upon:
A specific state of mind that led you to resort to taking that substance?


cheers

 

[drkhalsa]

Where would such a substance leave us?
Does the philosophy and manufactured taboo frown upon
1)The physical process of actually taking the substance?
2)A specific state of mind that led you to resort to taking that substance?
3)The effects of the substance on consciouness and awareness?
4)The side-effects of the substance?
5)Or all of the above

My Most preferred answer would be

3)The effects of the substance on consciouness and awareness?

Although all other choices are also true
and Alcohol is rated as number one in substance abuse and related health issueas and one of the major health issue in all developed countries .

But answer to question whether it is a SIN ?

My answer is No

although people can call me bad /weak sikh for that but still in my understanding it cant be something like SIN

Best answer i got from one of the spirtual master was that
Alcohol tends to give elation but also very Gross state of Mind as well , where as Spirtual seeker is Looking for very Subtle state of mind so it does not seems to be good practice for a spirtual seeker


Thanks

Jatinder Singh

 

[Archived_Member1]

my interpretation is that intoxication is the sin. now, if you can have a drink and not have it effect your ability to think clearly, then it's probably ok. for people like me who get buzzed from one drink, we should not drink at all.

also, for amritdhari sikhs, consuming intoxicants (tobacco, alcohol, etc) is a bujjar kurehet, on par with cutting one's hair or committing adultry.

consider the following:
ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਣਿਆ ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਇ ॥
Māṇas bẖari*ā āṇi*ā māṇas bẖari*ā ā*ė.
One person brings a full bottle, and another fills his cup.

ਜਿਤੁ ਪੀਤੈ ਮਤਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਰਲੁ ਪਵੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇ ॥
Jiṯ pīṯai maṯ ḏūr ho*ė baral pavai vicẖ ā*ė.
Drinking the wine, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind;

ਆਪਣਾ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਈ ਖਸਮਹੁ ਧਕੇ ਖਾਇ ॥
Āpṇā parā*i*ā na pacẖẖāṇ*ī kẖasmahu ḏẖakė kẖā*ė.
he cannot distinguish between his own and others, and he is struck down by his Lord and Master.

ਜਿਤੁ ਪੀਤੈ ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥
Jiṯ pīṯai kẖasam visrai ḏargeh milai sajā*ė.
Drinking it, he forgets his Lord and Master, and he is punished in the Court of the Lord.

ਝੂਠਾ ਮਦੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਪੀਚਈ ਜੇ ਕਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਵਸਾਇ ॥
Jẖūṯẖā maḏ mūl na pīcẖ*ī jė kā pār vasā*ė.
Do not drink the false wine at all, if it is in your power.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਸਚੁ ਮਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਇ ॥
Nānak naḏrī sacẖ maḏ pā*ī*ai saṯgur milai jis ā*ė.
O Nanak, the True Guru comes and meets the mortal; by His Grace, one obtains the True Wine.

ਸਦਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਹੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥
Saḏā sāhib kai rang rahai mahlī pāvai thā*o. ||1||
He shall dwell forever in the Love of the Lord Master, and obtain a seat in the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||

this would seem to indicate that intoxication with alcohol (false wine) is unacceptable. we should instead become intoxicated by the true wine (Naam).

 

[Sinister]

So I am assuming the consensus (i should have made this into a poll) is that drinking is not a sin if you drink so that you are not impaired in judgement and reason (i know its a very slippery slope). many call this the 4th round buzz (well at least where I'm from). But drinking itself is undesirable because it doesnt help on the spiritual path of enlightenment, its addictive and harmful (relatively)? (sound about right?)

i tend to agree jatinder ji .... you cannot classify it as a sin but the faith should frown on it (i know western faiths also do this) and not promote it. I know catholics and christians always have wine present at mass (to represent the blood of Christ)...in fact wine was a very popular drink back in the day...it was the Coca-Cola of ancient Rome. And who is to doubt that the last supper did not contain a nice cabernet for Jesus and his disciples?

i am also assuming now that people who enjoy Rum cake, Rum in chocolates or even non-alcholic beers that mimic taste are in the clear? ie: should not be worried about breaking any 'rules' (if such a thing does exist in this faith)

what about opiates used as pain killers? when you are under extreme pain can you take these? ... and who defines "extreme pain" (the physician or the patient?)
Another word: Medicinal Marijuana (THC)

these substances are all a reality and my question is how do we draw a straight line on the beach front with a thick fog covering it?

the do's and dont's get muffled and honesty, all of a sudden, starts to trump hardened resolve.

a conundrum if we make it so.

cheers

 

[Sinister]

Painkillers are just a straight forward medication....Lets not forget a HUGE slew of medications that people take in order to alter there state of mind.

anti-depressant medications (Fluxetine, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors), riddilin (mehtylphenidate), Tranquilizers (diazepam, many more on the market), Viagra (and a huge amount of related drugs), Acetylcholine supressing medication (trust me there is alot of them)

we are just skimming the surface... i think sikhi might need its own drug enforcement agency (like the FDA) just to keep up with the ney's and hey's of the medical pharmaceutical products.

"head-on applied directly to the forehead!":{;o:

 

[Archived_Member1]

So I am assuming the consensus (i should have made this into a poll) is that drinking is not a sin if you drink so that you are not impaired in judgement and reason (i know its a very slippery slope). many call this the 4th round buzz (well at least where I'm from). But drinking itself is undesirable because it doesnt help on the spiritual path of enlightenment, its addictive and harmful (relatively)? (sound about right?)

sounds reasonable to me. unless you're amritdhari, in which case you simply cannot drink.

i am also assuming now that people who enjoy Rum cake, Rum in chocolates or even non-alcholic beers that mimic taste are in the clear? ie: should not be worried about breaking any 'rules' (if such a thing does exist in this faith)

also sounds reasonable to me. i cook stir fry with rice wine, the alcohol evaporates, making it completely harmless. rum cake should be the same, right?

what about opiates used as pain killers? when you are under extreme pain can you take these? ... and who defines "extreme pain" (the physician or the patient?)
Another word: Medicinal Marijuana (THC)

that's more difficult. some amritdharis do not take pain killers. i've even heard of some who won't take anesthesia for surgery. these people are stronger than i am. personally, i suffer from a chronic pain disorder and i take painkillers as long as they don't impair my judgment (not opiates- they make me stupid). it's a personal choice.

these substances are all a reality and my question is how do we draw a straight line on the beach front with a thick fog covering it?

the do's and dont's get muffled and honesty, all of a sudden, starts to trump hardened resolve.

a conundrum if we make it so.

exactly.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Painkillers are just a straight forward medication....Lets not forget a HUGE slew of medications that people take in order to alter there state of mind.

anti-depressant medications (Fluxetine, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors), riddilin (mehtylphenidate), Tranquilizers (diazepam, many more on the market), Viagra (and a huge amount of related drugs), Acetylcholine supressing medication (trust me there is alot of them)

we are just skimming the surface... i think sikhi might need its own drug enforcement agency (like the FDA) just to keep up with the ney's and hey's of the medical pharmaceutical products.

"head-on applied directly to the forehead!":{;o:

here's my theory. if the medication is necessary in order for one to live a productive life, it's probably ok. one can safely assume that intoxicating drugs would not allow one to live a productive life, so those are right out.

this is my personal feeling though, i'm sure some sikhs don't take any medicines.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Johnnie Johnnie

yes papa

 

[Sinister]

here's my theory. if the medication is necessary in order for one to live a productive life, it's probably ok. one can safely assume that intoxicating drugs would not allow one to live a productive life, so those are right out.

this is my personal feeling though, i'm sure some sikhs don't take any medicines.

Interesting, I agree with what you are saying

I had not heard of any sikh that rejected an anesthetic during surgery before... thats hardcore (to my knowledge)

rum cake actually has rum in it (you can taste it in the chocolate icing as well....small amounts...you'd need to eat like 5 full size party cakes in order to feel something...and after 5 cakes you'll be feeling more than just drunk:rofl!!

I also cook my favourite pasta, or seafood dishes in some wine ... helps bring out the flavour. (cooks it better as well)

but where would do you stand on Medicinal Marijuana? (from the above comment im assuming against?)

cheers

 

[Sinister]

Johnnie Johnnie

yes papa

you missed Jack!

oh well

Jack be nimble
Jack be Quick
jack jumped over the candle stick

 

[Archived_Member1]

but where would do you stand on Medicinal Marijuana? (from the above comment im assuming against?)

cheers

i honestly do not know enough about it to make a comment either way.

but from what i know of cannabis, it seriously impairs ones ability to think, so i wouldn't use it.

 

[Sikh80]

But Sir, if anything is medicinal, it is ok. with sikhi though it may not be inscripted in the Holy Book.

 

[Archived_Member1]

But Sir, if anything is medicinal, it is ok. with sikhi though it may not be inscripted in the Holy Book.

some doctors say wine is healthy. does that make it ok to drink? even though according to rehet maryada it's a bujjar kurhet?

 

[Sikh80]

Rehat should be applicable to one who is fit and fine and not to the one who is not and intend to be so.





cheers!

 

[Archived_Member1]

Rehat should be applicable to one who is fit and fine and not to the one who is not and intend to be so.

i'm confused... so you're saying if i'm sick, i don't have to follow rehet? what if i'm amritdhari? do i have to retake amrit after recovering from an illness?

sorry, i don't understand your statement...

 

[Sikh80]

:u):U get confused on petty issues. V R discussing if it is possible to take something [some drug/liquor] if one is not well. Yes, in that case we can irrespective of Rehat.

Amritdharis are also men or women. No.?
they shd . also be exempted from this.it is aplain common sense unless one have strong reason to go otherwise. :u):

 

[Archived_Member1]

:u):U get confused on petty issues. V R discussing if it is possible to take something [some drug/liquor] if one is not well. Yes, in that case we can irrespective of Rehat.

Amritdharis are also men or women. No.?
they shd . also be exempted from this.it is aplain common sense unless one have strong reason to go otherwise. :u):

are you trying to make some sort of point by using so many animated smilies, after specifically asking me not to use them? because in this case you're right, i do get confused easily. i don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.

i don't think committing a bujjar kurehet is a "petty issue". i don't think that being sick exempts one from being sikh. (i'd put a smily here, but you don't like them, so i won't). i don't know how this is a "petty issue". for amritdharis, it's a matter of breaking amrit. taking intoxicants is a serious sin, as serious as cutting hair or comitting adultry. do you propose that someone be able to cut their hair or sleep around if they're sick? it's exactly the same thing.

 

[clarkejoey]

Possibly not, jasleen ji; alcohol-based medicine could save your life, and i doubt that any sleeping-around situation can claim that. (imaginary smiley goes here)

All the same: a sikh might detest cutting of hair, and yet decide to do it - for head surgery, say - in order to stay alive. Would they be a hero if they decide to die rather than shave? Even if s/he has children to care?